Shadow Realm – Brainstorm

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This topic contains 1,098 replies, has 37 voices, and was last updated by  Refineus 3 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #250599

    Gloweye
    Member

    I still think the DE Dwelling defense building should be modified; the DE are supposed to be more spider oriented and not storm-oriented, that’s how the lore has been explained so far.

    Well, it’s both storm and spider oriented. It’s also not going to change.

    I made a specific note about it – just check the ToW entry on Dark Elves next turn you play in that game. They’re going to their old days of glory during the cult of storms – which means xenophobia, cavern love, spiders, and lightning.

    The fact that Triumph screwed up their racial class units does not mean we need to follow their bad example. AoW3 received many criticisms for having races that are too alike. Sure, all units do not HAVE TO have something but if we can make them more unique, we should. Also as I already said, many of the things I proposed are very small changes (Inflict Marked by Shadows or Exploit Shadows especially).

    I think we should keep their style here. If it’s hard to think of something that’s really fitting and really adds somewhere, we shouldn’t do anything.

    #250627

    Draxynnic
    Member

    All defensive buildings – the Frost Totem that strikes everything aside – strikes a random enemy target outside the walls.

    I don’t understand what you want to mean in your 2 posts? You seemed to say what I proposed could strike any hex on the map, which it didn’t. What I proposed is exactly that: a strike at a random enemy target outside the wall, with all adjacent units getting affected by Dispel Magic.

    That’s pretty random to expect the Dispel Magic to trigger. Look at the conditions that need to be met for it to happen:

    * The attack needs to randomly target an enemy unit which is adjacent to another unit outside the walls.

    * The adjacent unit has to have an enchantment to be dispelled.

    That seems like a pretty short list at first glance, but from my experience, siege battles tend not to involve the attacking forces clumping a lot before they actually start hitting the walls. Next time you watch or participate in a siege battle, pay attention to how the attacking force approaches the walls and consider what chance their is on any given turn of the dispel effect you propose actually triggering. Better yet, do this with battles which have a randomly striking defensive building in play, and ask yourself if the units that were struck would have resulted in the dispel triggering.

    My gut feeling is that the expectation value of the number of times the dispel triggers per battle will be less than 1. Possibly substantially less.

    And this analysis doesn’t consider the possibility that the dispel does trigger, but it dispels something so minor that it really doesn’t matter anyway. Or that the attacking player has the possibility in mind and makes sure that units with valuable enchantments aren’t placed next to other units.

    All things considered, if one WAS to have an effect like this, it would make more sense to just have a dispel check on the target struck.

    Broadly speaking, though, I do think it’s overplaying a theme. Having a dispel or equivalent effect on both Storm Priests (with medals) and Night Guard is already plenty of countermeasures against magic when you add a naturally high resistance as well. Furthermore, while it would certainly be possible to imagine some sort of magic lightning bolt that drains magic from the area near where it strikes, in this case I think it’s more suitable to theme it around a magically-generated but otherwise ordinary lightning bolt.

    #250628

    Draxynnic
    Member

    So, I’ve put in a bit of brainstorming of my own, first on general concepts regarding unit types, and then moving onto specific discussions on classes and units. While I did remember and include the idea of Martyrs using shock (although I’ll have to admit I’m not entirely sure about that one), I’ve worked this out without cross-referencing with Hiliadan’s suggestions, in order to come at it with a fresh viewpoint.

    Conceptual Brainstorming:

    Irregulars: Can generally stand to have a ‘shadow’ theme. Rogue irregulars already have some links to stealth and shadow. Engineers… normally blind enemies with flashbangs. Could Shadow Elf engineers do so with a kind of shadow-themed ‘reverse flashbomb’?

    Infantry: Broadly speaking, infantry probably should not be a Shadow Elf strength. Infused are a unique case – the likes of Berserkers are based around physical strength, not shadow. Deathbringers may be an exception.

    Archers: Anything with a bow gets Arcane Arrows.

    Pikemen: Class pikemen can be more powerful forms of Night Guard, using similar weapons.

    Cavalry: The main class cavalry unit of note is the manticore. Their manticore is likely to be some sort of shadow creature – we can possibly add some Exterminator effects, although that might not be enough.

    Support: Magical supports should be an area of particular strength for the Shadow Elves – try to give them all something shadow-themed. Less magical supports such as bards… see if it fits, and see how much other stuff has been given out for that class.

    Monsters: The Warbreed may well be a crossbreed with some sort of shadow creature.

    Machines: There are no unique cannon or juggernaut replacements. Could we replace the regular cannon with a lightning cannon? Similarly, a Shrine of Smiting could have more of a lightning theme.

    Classes:

    Arch Druid:

    Shadow Elves are probably less ‘in tune’ with regular nature than High Elves, but Shadow Elf druids would likely be masters of survival in the Shadow Realm. Strong storm themes should be present.

    Hunters: Gain Arcane Arrows instead of Shoot Bow.

    Shamans: Gains Storm Bolts instead of Poison Bolts, and Greater Stunning Touch (like Stunning Touch but with a 1-turn cooldown) instead of Entangling Touch.

    Dreadnought:

    While an unusual combination, Shadow Elf dreadnoughts can have more magitechy themes, utilising the magical resources of the Shadow Realm.

    Engineers: Replace Flash Bang with Shadow Bomb. Shadow Bombs are like Flash Bangs except they do cold damage instead of fire damage.

    Lightning Cannon: Like a regular cannon, except it fires a lightning bolt. (Note: This may or may not be practical visually.)

    Necromancer:

    With Meandor most likely being a necromancer, it’s probably worthwhile bringing in some Cult of Storms flavour into Shadow Elf necromancer units, even at the cost of blight damage.

    Reanimator: Replaces Black Bolts with Shadow Bolts (3 shock, 3 frost, 3 spirit).

    Deathbringer: Replaces blight damage with shock damage.

    Rogue:

    Rogues already have a significant interaction with shadow, so the Shadow Elf rogue allows doubling down on this. Shadow Elf rogues allow for greater use of the Marked by Shadow/Exploit Shadow mechanics, through having a ranged source of Marked by Shadow and an immediate source of Exploit Shadow.

    Scoundrel: Gains Inflict Marked by Shadow

    Assassin: Gains Exploit Shadow. (May require increased build price).

    Succubus: Melee attack 10 physical and 3 shock. Trades fire protection for shock protection.

    Theocrat:

    Shadow Elf theocrats are essentially high priests of the Cult of Storms. Fire damage should be downplayed and shock damage introduced.

    Martyr: Uses Lightning Shock instead of Throw Stones.

    Crusader: Replaces Holy Champion with Storm Champion. Storm Champion is similar to Holy Champion except that it does shock damage instead of fire.

    Evangelist: Spirit damage is split between Shock and Spirit instead.

    Exalted: Replaces Righteous Zeal with Dark Zeal. Dark Zeal is like Righteous Zeal except the fire damage is frost damage instead.

    Shrine of Smiting: Becomes Shrine of Storms. Fire damage on the primary ranged attack is replaced by shock damage. Fire damage in Divine Vengeance is replaced with frost damage.

    Warlord:

    Bonuses for Mounted Archers and Phalanxes come out of the general rules above. With that, we probably don’t need a special Warbreed effect.

    Mounted Archer: Gains Arcane Arrows, with +1 to damage on each channel over the default.

    Phalanx: Basically super-elite Night Guard. Has 8 physical and 8 shock damage. Does not get Armor Piercing at bronze, but gets Ground Magic and Exploit Shadows instead.

    Manticore: Gains Wrapped in Shadows (might Wreathed in Shadows be better?), Inflict Marked by Shadow, and Life Steal. (Upgrading to Life Drain might be worth considering, but may be overkill. Alternatively, though, Life Steal on something as big as a manticore might not be noticeable. Shadowborn can upgrade the life steal, but I think that’s the only way that life steal is likely to be upgraded for a manticore.)

    #250629

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Ok so finally I understand what was your point about the defense building. But it looks like we had a misunderstanding since what I initially said was:

    What about having a dispel magic effect only on units 1 hex adjacent to the unit that receive the lightning bolt (and make the lightning bolt a bit weaker in consequence)?

    So for instance it would have be 12 Storm damage instead of 15 (if I remember correctly) for other defensive building with single target + the Dispel. The Dispel is just an extra bonus, it’s not the main use of the building, but it does make the building more unique and fun. Having just a simple attack is boring. And having a Thunderstorm looks a bit OP to me.
    And please stop acting like if I was an inexperienced player (when you try to teach me how sieges are played), I haven’t entered that debate about experience earlier because it brings nothing, but I can assure you I know very well how sieges are played.

    Ok so here is the current status for class units (I merged Gloweye, Drax’s and my proposals; I nerfed my proposal to put Exploit Shadow or Inflict Marked by Shadow on medals instead of Recruit):
    Warlord
    Scout: keep standard as there is currently no race variation for the Scout == CONFIRMED
    Berserker: gets Exploit Shadows at Recruit. We could maybe replace Inflict Bleeding Wounds at Veteran by an ability dealing shock damage over time (but that would be a new ability and not sure how it would work lorewise; it would make more sense to have a frost damage ability but I don’t feel Berserker are more in the “magic”/frost camp) == @Drax: what do you think about the proposals?
    Monster Hunter: Shadow Demon Slayer to Monster Hunters for all races. Then SE Monster Hunters get a 2nd copy of it. Gets Exploit Shadows at Recruit. I would also replace Throw Net by another ability but giving them Ground Magic may not be appropriate, any other idea? == @Drax: what do you think about it?
    Mounted Archer: Arcane Arrow instead of Shoot Bow == CONFIRMED
    Phalanx: melee attack is 12 physical and 5 shock damage (instead of 16 physical), Ground Magic and Exploit Shadows at Veteran instead of Armor Piercing == @Drax: why 8/8 and not 12/5 like the split of most units with elemental attacks?
    Warbreed: no change == CONFIRMED
    Manticore: Inflict Shadow Sickness and costs +10 mana? (High Elf’s cost +20 mana), Wrapped in Shadows, Inflict Marked by Shadow == @Drax: Manticore should definitely not get Life Steal, it’s OP, no way it can get it. Why Wrapped in Shadows?

    Theocrat
    Martyr: Lightning Shock as ranged attack == CONFIRMED
    Crusader: Exploit Shadows on Elite, Storm Champion(shock damage instead of fire) instead of Holy Champion == @Drax: what about Exploit Shadow?
    Evangelist: Turn Shadow Demon (similar to Turn Undead but for Shadow Demon), Spirit damage is split between Shock and Spirit == @Drax: what about Turn Shadow Demon? I don’t like the idea of having 3 channels on Evangelist. With a Rogue hero, that becomes 4 channels and it’s devastating on flanking.
    Exalted: Dark Zeal (frost damage instead of fire damage) replaces Righteous Zeal == CONFIRMED
    Shrine of Smiting: Becomes Shrine of Storms. Fire damage on the primary ranged attack is replaced by shock damage. Fire damage in Divine Vengeance is replaced with frost damage. == @Drax: I think we don’t have resources to make that model and no other race has a different Shrine

    Rogue
    Scoundrel: Shadow Realm concealment == @Drax: what about Shadow Realm concealment? I was seeing. I don’t feel it’s a good idea to give Inflict Marked by Shadow to a very easily accessible T1, it will make the combo too easy to activate. At least it should be on Elite only.
    Bard: Shadow Walker Aura == @Drax: opinion?
    Assassin: Shadow Realm concealment, Exploit Shadow on Elite == @Drax: I put Exploit Shadow on Elite; what about Shadow Realm concealment?
    Succubus: Melee attack 10 physical and 3 shock. Trades fire protection for shock protection. Invoke Darkness instead of Throw Curse, cost +5 mana, when Dark Pact is active, Succubi gets Fairy Fire instead of Bane Fire == @Drax, cf my analysis of Rogue Shadow Elf http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Hiliadan/Shadow_Realm_Community_Expansion#Class_racial_units “Shadow Elves do not make the most of Rogue’s Irregular boost and lack healing so may have difficult start as Rogue. They could get nice class units to make the choice interesting nonetheless.” So what do you think of the Invoke Darkness instead of Throw Curse?

    Necromancer
    Reanimator: Shadow Bolts (3 shock, 3 frost, 3 spirit) instead of Black Bolt, cost +5 gold (like Draconian) == CONFIRMED? (extra cost?)
    Deathbringer: Inflict Marked by Shadows at Veteran, Inflict Exhausting Fatigue replaced by Inflict Shadow Sickness, blight damage replaced by shock damage. == @Drax: ok with Inflict Shadow Sickness?

    Arch Druid
    Hunter: Arcane Arrow == CONFIRMED
    Shaman: Tame Shadow Demon instead of Befriend Animal? + Storm Bolts instead of Poison Bolts, and Stunning Touch instead of Entangling Touch. == @Drax: Stunning Touch is already cooldown 1; are you ok with Tame Shadow Demon instead of Befriend Animal?

    Sorcerer
    Apprentice: Wrapped in Shadows on Veteran, cost +5 gold == @Drax: you forgot it?

    Dreadnought
    Engineer: Blunderbuss deals 7 Physical, 6 Fire and 2 Shock damage, Inflict Marked by Shadow on Elite, Shadow Bomb (cold damage instead of fire damage) instead of Flash Bang == We have to choose between shock Blunderbuss or Shadow Bomb I think
    Musketeer: Fire Shadow Rifle instead of Fire Musket (8 Physical damage, 8 Shock damage, 8 Frost damage, cooldown 1 turn, increased damage against units with Shadow Sickness) == @Drax: opinion? You did not put forward anything for Musketeer
    Flame Tank replaced by Lightning Tank, with Lightning Throwing (25 Shock damage), Electricity Discharge (= 10 physical, 10 shock damage to all adjacent units on death), 60% Shock resistance and 20% Fire weakness, Inflict Shocked on Elite == CONFIRMED

    I’ll update the Wiki later with all the info and the confirmed units.

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #250633

    HousePet
    Member

    Careful with the extensive use of Shock damage here.
    After the inevitable success of the first version of this mod, people are likely to want a Syron race and we don’t want to build ourselves into a corner.

    Suggest Shadow Bomb for Engineer.
    Lightning Tank -> Thunder Tank with Lightning Throwing -> Thunder Blast (shock/physical).
    Maybe frost instead of shock damage for Succubus melee?
    Martyr: Makes its bolt half shock and either half frost or physical.

    #250642

    Hiliadan
    Member

    We need to avoid having multiple damage channels on units because it’s too strong on flanking (+ Might Meek, etc.).

    I updated the Theocrat racial class unit on the Wiki, I’ll do the rest later. I’m waiting for Gloweye to fix the override function of the Wiki to be able to properly display Shadow Elf units (right now it displays the “no race” unit, with the changes for Shadow Elf only displayed at the bottom).

    #250643

    Draxynnic
    Member

    And please stop acting like if I was an inexperienced player (when you try to teach me how sieges are played), I haven’t entered that debate about experience earlier because it brings nothing, but I can assure you I know very well how sieges are played.

    Huh?

    I initially expressed concern without going into detail because I assumed that greater depth was unnecessary. I went into more depth, including presenting a means for evaluating the issue, in response to the expressed confusion.

    For the reasons I expressed, I think your proposal is something that’s so unlikely to have a significant impact that it might as well not be there… except for the once-in-a-blue-moon fluke.

    Berserker: gets Exploit Shadows at Recruit. We could maybe replace Inflict Bleeding Wounds at Veteran by an ability dealing shock damage over time (but that would be a new ability and not sure how it would work lorewise; it would make more sense to have a frost damage ability but I don’t feel Berserker are more in the “magic”/frost camp) == @Drax: what do you think about the proposals?

    Giving them anything feels like it’s making berserkers too magical, really. They’re berserkers. They run up screaming and hit things, and I don’t see even Shadow Elf berserkers learning subtle magical effects instead. This is one spot where I think it’s appropriate to just leave them vanilla (but from the Shadow Elf perspective, it is giving them a no-frills physical damage unit, which is something they’re otherwise short on). Additionally, Exploit Shadows at recruit seems like something we should be careful giving out on general principles: the general concept of the interaction between those skills is that it’s relatively easy to mark opponents, but it requires more skilled units to exploit those marks. (I’m also keeping in mind that we essentially came up with Exploit Shadows purely as something we could give certain units as a gold medal ability – I really don’t think it needs to be spread throughout the entire line.)

    Monster Hunter: Shadow Demon Slayer to Monster Hunters for all races. Then SE Monster Hunters get a 2nd copy of it. Gets Exploit Shadows at Recruit. I would also replace Throw Net by another ability but giving them Ground Magic may not be appropriate, any other idea? == @Drax: what do you think about it?

    Isn’t Throw Net for monster hunters a human-only thing, part of the general theme of human irregulars having nets? Double Shadow Demon Slayer is interesting thematically, but how much impact it will actually have depends on the role SDs actually play in-game. Exploit Shadows at recruit could work here – it’s roughly comparable in power to the buffs some other MHs get (lower damage at range, but can also apply in melee, at the cost of requiring a mark). Mind you, given that we have clear benefits for units higher in the chain, MHs could probably be left alone, or with just the double Shadow Demon Slayer. (Come to think on it, though, I am concerned about Shadow Demon Slayer being a racial attribute in general. Yes, they’re good at fighting Shadow Demons due to experience and having a lot of shock damage… but if Shadow Demons are the main threat in the Shadow World, then why don’t Archons and, if we get to it in a supplementary expansion, syrons have it too? And if the main threat is something else, why so much focus on fighting Shadow Demons in particular when liberal use of shock damage is already exploiting their weaknesses?

    (That’s starting to get into more big-picture thinking, but it’s worth considering.)

    Phalanx: melee attack is 12 physical and 5 shock damage (instead of 16 physical), Ground Magic and Exploit Shadows at Veteran instead of Armor Piercing == @Drax: why 8/8 and not 12/5 like the split of most units with elemental attacks?

    Because the theme of Night Guard was about having a weapon where the main function of the physical weapon is as a conductor for magic and electricity – as opposed to most cases of incorporating a split where it tends to be a physical attack that happens to be made with a freezing or burning weapon. Phalanxes will presumably have a stronger form of this (or be better able to use it), but it’s still a case of the shock being an important part of the attack rather than being a spear that just happens to be conducting.

    It does also make them a little bit weaker that a split attack would normally be, but I think that’s appropriate because a) lack of non-physical damage has traditionally been a weakness for warlords, and b) Ground Magic is probably a stronger effect than Armor Piercing once it becomes available, especially if they also have Exploit Shadows.

    We could up the physical component on the basis that the shock damage is still relatively constant in spite of skill while skill determines how good they are at using the physical aspects of the weapon, and also on the basis that it will then come closer to a 50/50 split if Exploit Shadows and/or Ground Magic comes into play.

    Manticore: Inflict Shadow Sickness and costs +10 mana? (High Elf’s cost +20 mana), Wrapped in Shadows, Inflict Marked by Shadow == @Drax: Manticore should definitely not get Life Steal, it’s OP, no way it can get it. Why Wrapped in Shadows?

    I was largely conceiving it as the rider being an elite Exterminator.

    I find it interesting that I say that Life Steal may not be enough, while you say it’s too strong. From my perspective, base Life Steal is only 2-3 health recovered per attack that the manticore makes. Given the large health pool that manticores have, and the large amounts of damage you tend to see flying around in battles where manticores are present, I don’t think base life steal is likely to be overpowered. Lifesteal tends to be most powerful on units that have physical resistance or other means of substantially reducing the damage they take so they heal faster than (or close to faster than) the rate at which they lose health. If a manticore is facing units that can only do damage to the manticore in small packets, then lifesteal is probably only adding insult to injury. I think it’s on par with, or even inferior to, benefits that other manticores get (Pounce, Wing Beat, Inflict Stunning…)

    Inflict Shadow Sickness could work, although unless it has a means of punching through Shadow Walking or it’s applying multiple stacks (ouch), that will probably only be relevant outside the shadow world.

    Martyr: Lightning Shock as ranged attack == CONFIRMED

    I do have reservations, and HousePet basically hit the nail on the head where those reservations are. Shock-throwing Martyrs makes sense for Shadow Elves, but they also make sense for Syrons should we do that in the future. And if we put in all the changes to other units, that’s already a lot of changes for theocrat. One consideration, though, is that it probably makes more sense for Shadow Elf martyrs to throw shock than it does for syrons because, for the Cult of Storms, lightning has a religious aspect. For syrons, it seemed to be more of a natural affinity and a tool: syron religion tended to focus more on holy from what little indications we have on it.

    Crusader: Exploit Shadows on Elite, Storm Champion(shock damage instead of fire) instead of Holy Champion == @Drax: what about Exploit Shadow?

    My concept regarding theocrats is that they’re focusing more on the Cult of Storms side of things than the shadow side of things. I also don’t see infantry class units as a whole as having a high priority for buffing for reasons I stated previously. Storm Champion is a ‘sidegrade’ – I don’t think they really need anything else.

    Evangelist: Turn Shadow Demon (similar to Turn Undead but for Shadow Demon), Spirit damage is split between Shock and Spirit == @Drax: what about Turn Shadow Demon? I don’t like the idea of having 3 channels on Evangelist. With a Rogue hero, that becomes 4 channels and it’s devastating on flanking.

    Turn Shadow Demon makes sense, although it might make even more sense for Syron evangelists in the future. Probably not a big deal either way.

    There’s already precedent for switching from dual channels to triple channels, or vice versa, as a racial distinction. Triple channels are a double-edged sword: it helps in flanking or against low-resistance targets, but against high-resistance targets it means your damage output deteriorates faster. Evangelists don’t have any abilities that help them get into a flanking position, so it should be fine.

    Shrine of Smiting: Becomes Shrine of Storms. Fire damage on the primary ranged attack is replaced by shock damage. Fire damage in Divine Vengeance is replaced with frost damage. == @Drax: I think we don’t have resources to make that model and no other race has a different Shrine

    No race had unique golems or tanks either, until they were added.

    It’d be a bit weird to cull fire damage out of the rest of the line and leave them with a top unit that does a lot of fire damage, particularly given the importance of the Cult of Storms. I don’t imagine it would actually take much modification – the animation for the beam firing doesn’t really have anything that makes it clearly a fire attack so we can leave the animations in, and in terms of the model it probably only needs to be reskinned to a stormcloud grey colour.

    Scoundrel: Shadow Realm concealment == @Drax: what about Shadow Realm concealment? I was seeing. I don’t feel it’s a good idea to give Inflict Marked by Shadow to a very easily accessible T1, it will make the combo too easy to activate. At least it should be on Elite only.

    Shadow Realm concealment was something I was considering myself. It may be a little too strong, but then, facing a Shadow Elf Rogue in the Shadow Realm should be something that requires you to bring countermeasures if you want to see them coming.

    With regards to Inflict Marked by Shadow, we already have it on Touched at bronze, and scoundrels do require more investment to get (research, building). Main distinction with having it on Scoundrels is that they get it on a ranged unit. Which could be nasty once Exploit Shadows starts triggering, but it’s a synergy that I think would be fitting.

    Bard: Shadow Walker Aura == @Drax: opinion?

    Hrrrmn. Neither for nor against it, really. We may want to consider the possibility of syron bards in the future, but doubling up on this probably won’t be too bad. If we DO introduce something like that, we might want to consider it available more broadly so it doesn’t become a rogue-only thing. It could be interesting to make it something that shadow elf supports in general have to offer: the Shadow Elves being willing to share the magic that allows them to remain comfortable in the Shadow Realm to their allies. Essentially, replace the Shadow Walking enchantment from AOW2:SM with wanting to have a suitable Shadow Elf support in the stack.

    Assassin: Shadow Realm concealment, Exploit Shadow on Elite == @Drax: I put Exploit Shadow on Elite; what about Shadow Realm concealment?

    I was actually thinking this would be one spot where Exploit Shadows on recruit might actually be justified. First, I have the general concept in mind that Shadow Elf assassins should be some of the best assassins around. Second, it provides some synergy between assassins and other sneaky-type units in the Shadow Elf lineup, which can mark targets for the assassins to kill.

    Succubus: Melee attack 10 physical and 3 shock. Trades fire protection for shock protection. Invoke Darkness instead of Throw Curse, cost +5 mana, when Dark Pact is active, Succubi gets Fairy Fire instead of Bane Fire == @Drax, cf my analysis of Rogue Shadow Elf http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Hiliadan/Shadow_Realm_Community_Expansion#Class_racial_units “Shadow Elves do not make the most of Rogue’s Irregular boost and lack healing so may have difficult start as Rogue. They could get nice class units to make the choice interesting nonetheless.” So what do you think of the Invoke Darkness instead of Throw Curse?

    Didn’t think of that possibility. Seems like a reasonable swap. It will reduce their ability to charm, but having a flying source of Invoke Shadow could give interesting options. One thing to watch out for is that a flying unit with Invoke Shadow may prove to be TOO good.

    Reanimator: Shadow Bolts (3 shock, 3 frost, 3 spirit) instead of Black Bolt, cost +5 gold (like Draconian) == CONFIRMED? (extra cost?)

    At this stage, I’m not really thinking about costs. An extra 5g seems reasonable. Price adjustments are one of the finer balance instruments.

    Deathbringer: Inflict Marked by Shadows at Veteran, Inflict Exhausting Fatigue replaced by Inflict Shadow Sickness, blight damage replaced by shock damage. == @Drax: ok with Inflict Shadow Sickness?

    See manticore response for Inflict Shadow Sickness.

    Shaman: Tame Shadow Demon instead of Befriend Animal? + Storm Bolts instead of Poison Bolts, and Stunning Touch instead of Entangling Touch. == @Drax: Stunning Touch is already cooldown 1; are you ok with Tame Shadow Demon instead of Befriend Animal?

    I’d forgotten that buff – I don’t use Stunning Touch that often. *’.’*

    That… really gets into what we expect the fauna of the Shadow World to be. I’d worry that switching out Charm Animal would be a downgrade, because of how common animals are in general. That may not be the case in the Shadow World, but losing Charm Animal is a pretty potent loss.

    We could even give them both Charm Animal and Tame Shadow Demon, and otherwise leave them the same as regular shamans (so, retaining poison bolts and Entangling Touch).

    Apprentice: Wrapped in Shadows on Veteran, cost +5 gold == @Drax: you forgot it?

    Huh. I did miss it, although I had something in mind – namely, trading Faerie Fire for a shock/frost/spirit attack. Giving them Wrapped in Shadows probably works better, though. Let’s do that (with the price hike) instead.

    Engineer: Blunderbuss deals 7 Physical, 6 Fire and 2 Shock damage, Inflict Marked by Shadow on Elite, Shadow Bomb (cold damage instead of fire damage) instead of Flash Bang == We have to choose between shock Blunderbuss or Shadow Bomb I think

    My preference is a shadow bomb. Lightning cones are something that I think should only come from things that explicitly violate the laws of nature (like Eldritch Horrors). Broadly speaking, too, dreadnoughts should be largely based on gunpowder and other explosives even with Shadow Elves, so Blunderbuss remains fire/physical.

    Musketeer: Fire Shadow Rifle instead of Fire Musket (8 Physical damage, 8 Shock damage, 8 Frost damage, cooldown 1 turn, increased damage against units with Shadow Sickness) == @Drax: opinion? You did not put forward anything for Musketeer

    Deliberately so. Most races buff either engineers or musketeers, not both (Frostlings and halflings, with unique machines, have neither), and I don’t really see a need for anything special for shadow elf musketeers.

    Flame Tank replaced by Lightning Tank, with Lightning Throwing (25 Shock damage), Electricity Discharge (= 10 physical, 10 shock damage to all adjacent units on death), 60% Shock resistance and 20% Fire weakness, Inflict Shocked on Elite == CONFIRMED

    I suggested a lightning cannon, not a lightning tank. See above comment about reserving lightning cones for things that are explicitly telling the laws of physics to take a hike. Dreadnought stuff can have a little magitech, but should generally be stuff that remains reasonably plausible. If we want a lightning-oriented machine, and a lightning cannon won’t work, then I’d be inclined to go with a golem with shock damage… or just note that most races only have one special dreadnought unit and shadow elves can make do with just one too.

    Careful with the extensive use of Shock damage here.
    After the inevitable success of the first version of this mod, people are likely to want a Syron race and we don’t want to build ourselves into a corner.

    I’ve somewhat discussed this above, but the general distinctions in my mind where lightning is concerned are:

    1) Shadow Elves use shock/frost, syrons would use shock/spirit (they probably wouldn’t have Astral Sprites in their lineup, but it is nonetheless something pushing them towards holy, and their special racial building had something of a holy focus).
    2) Shadow Elves view lightning from a religious perspective, and thus have a focus on it in their magic. For syrons, lightning is more something they just do, while their magic-users might focus more on spirit (mixing spirit and shock or eschewing shock entirely). This means, for instance, that a lightning-themed berserker and/or warbreed may be appropriate for syrons where I’m disinclined to do that for Shadow Elves.
    3) Syrons should be able to generate a lot of stunning checks without needing supports, at least when their units reach gold.

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by  Draxynnic.
    #250645

    HousePet
    Member

    I like the Shrine of Storms. Even if we can’t give it a unique appearance, giving a unique unit is good.
    Actually, is Frost Tank the only variation on Flame Tank?
    I’ve gone blank here, but unless there is precedent, I think we should go with only 1 unique unit variation per race and per unit. So maybe retain Flame Tank?

    #250646

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Next time you watch or participate in a siege battle, pay attention to how the attacking force approaches the walls and consider what chance their is on any given turn of the dispel effect you propose actually triggering. Better yet, do this with battles which have a randomly striking defensive building in play, and ask yourself if the units that were struck would have resulted in the dispel triggering.

    That was not going into more depth, that was acting like I’m a guy who never played siege battles.

    For the reasons I expressed, I think your proposal is something that’s so unlikely to have a significant impact that it might as well not be there… except for the once-in-a-blue-moon fluke.

    Ok then please re-assess because a normal siege fight regularly involve units side by side, especially when they try to break the gates, when attacking together a unit that charged out of the wall (happened often to me when fighting Warlod manticores on SP, a long time ago), when casting a spell, etc. Check live MP videos from sieges, you will see by yourself. Units are next to each other most of the time. For auto-battle, it’s even worse, especially to break the gates.
    Then if you think the effect is limited, instead of dropping it, I think it would make more sense to build on it and for instance apply it to the unit targeted by the bolt, or reducing the strength of the bolt less, or replacing Dispel by something else, etc.

    Isn’t Throw Net for monster hunters a human-only thing, part of the general theme of human irregulars having nets?

    I checked and all MH have Throw Net at Elite. So maybe replace it by Exploit Shadow + something else?

    Come to think on it, though, I am concerned about Shadow Demon Slayer being a racial attribute in general. Yes, they’re good at fighting Shadow Demons due to experience and having a lot of shock damage… but if Shadow Demons are the main threat in the Shadow World, then why don’t Archons and, if we get to it in a supplementary expansion, syrons have it too? And if the main threat is something else, why so much focus on fighting Shadow Demons in particular when liberal use of shock damage is already exploiting their weaknesses?

    Yes maybe we could drop it as a race attribute. But lore wise, they have been fighting Shadow Demons for a very long time and maybe the attacks of the Shadow Demons have focused more on them than Archons, who thus did not have or did not want to learn to specifically fight them.

    I find it interesting that I say that Life Steal may not be enough, while you say it’s too strong

    Well, I’m pretty sure all competitive players will say like me that Life Steal is one of the top ability, and especially so on units with large HP pool. Your reasoning is a bit strange: Life Steal on a squishy unit has actually no value because it will die fast. Life Steal on a Manticore means it can take back a lot of life because it will survive long and hit a lot of enemies.
    Inflict Stunning is also very strong. Wing Beat <<<<<< Life Steal. And Pounce is problematic too but for other reasons.
    True for Inflict Shadow Sickness, that would apply only outside the Shadow Realm. But I guess it’s ok, we don’t want a unit that is too powerful. I write Inflict Shadow Sickness (maybe on medal), Wrapped in Shadows and Inflict Marked by Shadow (maybe on medal) and +10 mana for now.

    it probably makes more sense for Shadow Elf martyrs to throw shock than it does for syrons

    I take that for a “we keep it with the shock damage” then. 😛

    Triple channels are a double-edged sword: it helps in flanking or against low-resistance targets, but against high-resistance targets it means your damage output deteriorates faster. Evangelists don’t have any abilities that help them get into a flanking position, so it should be fine

    You don’t need abilities to get into a flanking position, you just need skills and all good players flank on almost all of their attacks. Theocrat is already one of the strongest match for Shadow Elf (“the class compensates lacks of SE (healing, population, flying) and boosts its high resistance”), I’m not sure it’s a good idea to boost it further like this.

    That… really gets into what we expect the fauna of the Shadow World to be. I’d worry that switching out Charm Animal would be a downgrade, because of how common animals are in general. That may not be the case in the Shadow World, but losing Charm Animal is a pretty potent loss.

    We could even give them both Charm Animal and Tame Shadow Demon, and otherwise leave them the same as regular shamans (so, retaining poison bolts and Entangling Touch).

    Yeah, I think our Shadow Demon “fauna” will be limited to 3-4 units. Maybe give Shaman Lesser Befriend Animal (-2 strength) AND Tame Shadow Demon then? And keep the Storm Bolt and Stunning Touch.

    Deliberately so. Most races buff either engineers or musketeers, not both (Frostlings and halflings, with unique machines, have neither), and I don’t really see a need for anything special for shadow elf musketeers.

    That’s probably one of the reason why Dreadnought is one of the least liked class too. And maybe that’s because the devs were lazy with Dread. I’d suggest to have at least something in relationship with Shadow Sickness. Either an Inflict or an Exploit Shadow Sickness.

    Ok I’ll update the full line-up on the Wiki. Good job, we’ve almost finished all the SE units! 🙂

    #250658

    Dr_K
    Member

    @vfxrob

    Still having issues with the head & skin colors not matching for male units.

    I’m not sure what you did differently between the two to get the different colors, but it is still obvious they don’t match. The normal necromancer models look better than the dark variants. The dark variants look like very skinny orcs when the skin color is applied to the model.

    I’ll try to set up a version of the mod for you to play with so that you can take a look at the final version with the color applied. If it would be easier to discuss it outside of the thread, let me know. Easiest way to contact me is via steam.

    My two cents on the class unit discussion:

    Unmentioned class units I’m on board with what seems to be the consensus.

    Arch Druid
    Shaman: I like the idea of lesser befriend animal with control shadow demon and stunning touch in place of entangling touch. However, I think we should keep the ranged attack as entirely magical instead of using storm bolts split as Blight\Shock or Shock\Frost. Unless it changed and I missed it, I never really was a big fan of the storm bolt’s physical\shock split.

    Dreadnought
    Engineer: In favor of the Shadow bomb replacement

    Muskteer: No damage channel changes. If anything, some inflict effect.

    Lightning Tank vs Cannon: I do not like the lightning tank idea. I like the shock cannon. It seems to fit better with the design of the race overall.

    Necromancer
    Deathbringer: Replacing Inflict Exhausting Fatigue with Inflict Shadow Sickness seems like a bit of a downgrade due to the fact that it’s very situational and its comparative strength (assuming shadow sickness is still -1 Def, -1 Res, -1 melee)

    Rogue
    Scoundrel: Shadow Realm Concealment. Inflict Marked by shadow should not be on elite since it becomes a unusable after corrupted killers is researched. Put it on expert instead.

    Bard: I like the idea of Shadow Walker Aura behaving like the Shadow Walking enchantment, however that seems like a huge buff. Maybe have it only counteract part of the shadow sickness debuff?

    Assassins: Gets exploit shadow. Shadow realm concealment will probably be too strong. Not sure on the mod-ibility of it, but we might be able to add partial Shadow Realm conealment by terrain type (ex: Shadow Realm Wetlands combo)

    Succubus: Melee attack and protection changes are good. I think Invoke Darkness could replace Throw Curse, but I think it needs a 2 turn cooldown instead of 1. Cost increase probably necessary. Instead of fairy fire, use the Shadow Fire (Shock,Frost,Spirit) for dark pact.

    Theocrat
    Crusader: I like the Storm Champion idea. Exploit shadows does not seem very fitting.

    Evangelist: I am in favor of the idea of splitting the spirit damage to spirit and shock (likely reduce damage), and turn shadow demon (in place of turn undead?).

    Shrine of Smiting: Shrine of Storms is good. We can easily change the attack particle color. There might be a particle effect on the unit itself that we could change for a distinction, though I’m unsure on that one.

    Warlord
    Berserker: Nothing necessary to add.

    Manticore: I like the idea of inflict marked by shadows and wrapped in shadows. Compared to the other racial variants, it seems like it needs something else.

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by  Dr_K.
    #250660

    Gloweye
    Member

    . If a manticore is facing units that can only do damage to the manticore in small packets, then lifesteal is probably only adding insult to injury. I think it’s on par with, or even inferior to, benefits that other manticores get (Pounce, Wing Beat, Inflict Stunning…)

    Well, I’m pretty sure all competitive players will say like me that Life Steal is one of the top ability, and especially so on units with large HP pool. Your reasoning is a bit strange: Life Steal on a squishy unit has actually no value because it will die fast. Life Steal on a Manticore means it can take back a lot of life because it will survive long and hit a lot of enemies.
    Inflict Stunning is also very strong. Wing Beat <<<<<< Life Steal. And Pounce is problematic too but for other reasons.
    True for Inflict Shadow Sickness, that would apply only outside the Shadow Realm. But I guess it’s ok, we don’t want a unit that is too powerful. I write Inflict Shadow Sickness (maybe on medal), Wrapped in Shadows and Inflict Marked by Shadow (maybe on medal) and +10 mana for now.

    TBH, I agree Life steal is kind of weak. Its when stacking that it becomes strong. And unless all those top competetive players pick only shadowborn for the global life steal, I don’t believe it’s that strong. Wing Beat is strong as well – worst case it’s an attack without retaliation. My vote would be Life Steal and Inflict Shadow Sickness, without anything else. Perhaps 10 Mana cost increase.

    Inflict Shadow Sickness could work, although unless it has a means of punching through Shadow Walking or it’s applying multiple stacks (ouch), that will probably only be relevant outside the shadow world.

    I like to think of it as “bring the shadow realm along with you”. Normally, they’d be stronger due to shadow world, and they want to extend that advantage.

    It could be interesting to make it something that shadow elf supports in general have to offer: the Shadow Elves being willing to share the magic that allows them to remain comfortable in the Shadow Realm to their allies. Essentially, replace the Shadow Walking enchantment from AOW2:SM with wanting to have a suitable Shadow Elf support in the stack.

    I actually kind of really like that idea.

    We could even give them both Charm Animal and Tame Shadow Demon, and otherwise leave them the same as regular shamans (so, retaining poison bolts and Entangling Touch).

    Yeah, I think our Shadow Demon “fauna” will be limited to 3-4 units. Maybe give Shaman Lesser Befriend Animal (-2 strength) AND Tame Shadow Demon then? And keep the Storm Bolt and Stunning Touch.

    I dont really like all them “lesser” variants, unless you can actually stack them. I’d like them to have just Tame Shadow Demon and keep it at that, perhaps with a minor cost increase. It’s really unlikely that you’ll ever be able to use both in the same battle anyway.

    I suggested a lightning cannon, not a lightning tank. See above comment about reserving lightning cones for things that are explicitly telling the laws of physics to take a hike. Dreadnought stuff can have a little magitech, but should generally be stuff that remains reasonably plausible. If we want a lightning-oriented machine, and a lightning cannon won’t work, then I’d be inclined to go with a golem with shock damage… or just note that most races only have one special dreadnought unit and shadow elves can make do with just one too.

    How about a shock pulse tank ? Image a unit that looks a bit like a Spelljammer, that just uses an ability that deals 25 Shock damage to all units in two hexes around it. Its a lot riskier, but potentially just as strong, in different circumstances.

    I checked and all MH have Throw Net at Elite. So maybe replace it by Exploit Shadow + something else?

    Or just keep it there ? Its a neat, fitting ability for the unit, shadow elf or not.

    Necromancer
    Deathbringer: Replacing Inflict Exhausting Fatigue with Inflict Shadow Sickness seems like a bit of a downgrade due to the fact that it’s very situational and its comparative strength (assuming shadow sickness is still -1 Def, -1 Res, -1 melee)

    I don’t want to replace anything – lets just add it on base. Give them a slight mana cost increase to compensate.

    #250666

    vfxrob
    Member

    @doc
    Invite sent doc, though I’ve started to go through and add a new texture and remove the glow from the heroes. From the screenshots you had sent they are not looking too hot anyhow. Also will throw on a dark grey for the necco skins.

    @Hilliadan

    Would thou mind forwarding me those DE skins via steam again? I went to find and start them over the weekend but might have deleted them while moving files around with another dark elf model i had been working on for someone.

    #250673

    Hiliadan
    Member

    The DE files should be there: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0bf5mm9kw1uge3w/DELF.rar?dl=0

    @gloweye: did you see my latest messages on Steam regarding the override issue on the Wiki? Seems to work for {{Martyr|race=goblin|rank=4}} but not for {{Unit|Martyr|race=goblin|rank=4}}. race=shadowelf also does not work despite the fact that I put in place all the “hidden shadowelf” stuff.

    #250676

    Draxynnic
    Member

    That was not going into more depth, that was acting like I’m a guy who never played siege battles.

    Actually, my assumption was that you’d seen enough play that you’d understand what I was talking about, and could readily see what I was talking about from the example. Replays and such are then a vehicle for quantifying the effect – how often would the suggested mechanic trigger against a player who wasn’t taking countermeasures?

    Seriously, this isn’t productive.

    Ok then please re-assess because a normal siege fight regularly involve units side by side, especially when they try to break the gates, when attacking together a unit that charged out of the wall (happened often to me when fighting Warlod manticores on SP, a long time ago), when casting a spell, etc. Check live MP videos from sieges, you will see by yourself. Units are next to each other most of the time. For auto-battle, it’s even worse, especially to break the gates.
    Then if you think the effect is limited, instead of dropping it, I think it would make more sense to build on it and for instance apply it to the unit targeted by the bolt, or reducing the strength of the bolt less, or replacing Dispel by something else, etc.

    I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I generally try to avoid situations where I’m reduced to smashing through the gates. Even when it does, there’s usually little benefit to squashing up against the gate until the gate is already down – unless you have some means of refreshing the gate attacker’s movement, there won’t be any breakout until the turn after the gates go down, and that’s assuming that the enemy doesn’t block the chokepoint. There are generally relatively few disadvantages to it either, but if you know the enemy has an AoE effect of some kind, that encourages spreading out more.

    The AI might not be smart enough to recognise that. OTOH, in a PBEM combat between players, the attacker can still set up an attacking force that isn’t totally reliant on breaking down the gates.

    Really, though, whether the dispel is in an area around but not including the target hex, or whether it also includes the target hex, this is something I can see having an influence on a siege battle that could be anywhere from none at all (the attackers aren’t using enchantments, or the attackers that have enchantments just don’t get targeted), to being about the same as debilitating effects from existing defence buildings such as the Filth Pit and the Rabbit Burrows, and every so often the stars will align and the structure will happen to strip off a few key enchantments and have a big effect on the battle.

    The problem is, the difference between a battle where the dispel has no effect at all even if the attacker is using enchantments because it just never strikes in the right place, and one where the dispel has a huge effect because it strikes perfectly every time, is mostly RNG. Regular dispels operate by player agency: the player chooses when and where to use them, and even in autoresolve battles, the player has the agency of choosing whether to bring dispels or whether to bring units with other capabilities. As a defence building… well, people can’t choose to substitute it for another building, and when it comes into play, there’s a huge potential for RNG to decide how effective it actually is.

    That sort of RNG tends to be highly unpopular, especially in multiplayer environments.

    I checked and all MH have Throw Net at Elite. So maybe replace it by Exploit Shadow + something else?

    You’re right – my mistake. Been a while since I’ve used MHs.

    That said, I think it’s reasonable in this case to just add Exploit Shadows at recruit, with a small price increase. A lot of MHs get a substantial upgrade to their ranged attack. A smaller, conditional upgrade to all attacks seems reasonable.

    Just giving them nothing, though, would also be fitting. It seems to be typical for races to get 2-3 special units out of the warlord list, plus the manticore. Mounted Arcane Archers and magic-draining Phalanxes may well be more than enough for the Shadow Elf Warlord, particularly since this gives the Shadow Elf Warlord a lot of access to non-physical damage (normally a weakness for warlords).

    Yes maybe we could drop it as a race attribute. But lore wise, they have been fighting Shadow Demons for a very long time and maybe the attacks of the Shadow Demons have focused more on them than Archons, who thus did not have or did not want to learn to specifically fight them.

    It’s possibly more a future consideration for the syrons than for the archons. Archons have always been more focused on the undead and the more traditional demons that sometimes accompany them, while it could be argued that through Meandor’s work, the Shadow Elves have a greater knowledge of Shadow Demons than the archons. If we do introduce the syrons in some later release, though… well, for them, it’s personal.

    TBH, I agree Life steal is kind of weak. Its when stacking that it becomes strong. And unless all those top competetive players pick only shadowborn for the global life steal, I don’t believe it’s that strong. Wing Beat is strong as well – worst case it’s an attack without retaliation. My vote would be Life Steal and Inflict Shadow Sickness, without anything else. Perhaps 10 Mana cost increase.

    So. I ran the numbers on a battle between a gold Shadow Elf manticore with lifesteal (and no other modifiers from base manticores) versus a gold dwarf manticore. Martial Arts has the potential to have a strong effect in this battle, but the scenarios that the dwarf manticore rider won were won more convincingly than those the shadow elf manticore won.

    However, a bigger issue cropped up while I was running the numbers. I don’t think the problem with lifesteal comes from having a large health pool and getting to attack more often – then, the distinction is about the same as a boost to defence and/or resistance that reduces the damage you take by 2-3 points. However, there are two differences between lifesteal and defensive stats. The benefit of lifesteal is based on the number of times you attack, while defensive stats help with the number of times you get hit; so defensive stats help you more when you’re getting hit more than you can retaliate, while lifesteal helps when you’re hitting more than you get hit. The latter case usually happens when you outnumber the enemy, and if you outnumber the enemy with manticores, you’re already winning.

    The bigger issue is that while defensive stats can only reduce the damage to a minimum, lifestealing can cause a unit to effectively take zero damage, or even come out ahead, from an exchange if its defensive stats are high enough (which is part of what makes wraiths so nasty if you don’t have the counter). And the defensive stats on the SE manticore would be high enough that it could create those situations (20 defence against retaliations and 15 resistance for a gold SE manticore), making it fairly nasty in those ‘rampage through weaker enemies’ situations. Now, in these situations, the manticore should be outnumbered (because if you have tier 4 units and the enemy doesn’t, but the enemy doesn’t outnumber you either, then you’ve basically won anyway unless what they have is at least a soft counter), giving the enemy the opportunity to attack without letting the manticore steal life, but it could make them pretty nasty under these circumstances. The actual effect of lifesteal also becomes exponentially better when upgraded, since it makes it much more likely that a unit won’t be able to deal enough damage to break through the lifesteal.

    I think it might still be worth some testing, but having a backup option if it does prove too powerful would be prudent. Lifesteal on a basic manticore is probably fine. Greater lifesteal on a Shadowborn-owned manticore which also has Martial Arts and possible other buffs as well… that could easily be too much.

    ou don’t need abilities to get into a flanking position, you just need skills and all good players flank on almost all of their attacks. Theocrat is already one of the strongest match for Shadow Elf (“the class compensates lacks of SE (healing, population, flying) and boosts its high resistance”), I’m not sure it’s a good idea to boost it further like this.

    Gotta say, though, Evangelists aren’t exactly on the top of my list when it comes to flanking… and even when flanking multiple channels can be a weakness against high resistance.

    You make valid points regarding compensating for weaknesses, however.

    On the gripping hand, as long as Shadow Elf evangelists get something, I think it’s fine to leave them with the basic melee+spirit attack. Shadow Walking Aura could be an interesting substitute there.

    I dont really like all them “lesser” variants, unless you can actually stack them. I’d like them to have just Tame Shadow Demon and keep it at that, perhaps with a minor cost increase. It’s really unlikely that you’ll ever be able to use both in the same battle anyway.

    This is pretty much my thinking regarding Shadow Elf Shamans. Make them a little more expensive, and let them grab either animals or Shadow Demons.

    Heck, we could just replace Charm Animal with an ability that works like Charm Animal, but can also target Shadow Demons – Shadow Taming, perhaps?

    That’s probably one of the reason why Dreadnought is one of the least liked class too. And maybe that’s because the devs were lazy with Dread. I’d suggest to have at least something in relationship with Shadow Sickness. Either an Inflict or an Exploit Shadow Sickness.

    Dreads were one of the least liked classes even back in the day that the only racial variation for class units came from the base racial modifiers. From what I’ve seen, a lot of it boils down to some people just not liking technology in their fantasy, and machines being generally difficult to keep in good repair and lacking in mobility.

    Arch Druid
    Shaman: I like the idea of lesser befriend animal with control shadow demon and stunning touch in place of entangling touch. However, I think we should keep the ranged attack as entirely magical instead of using storm bolts split as Blight\Shock or Shock\Frost. Unless it changed and I missed it, I never really was a big fan of the storm bolt’s physical\shock split.

    “Storm bolts” as an attack don’t exist in vanilla AoW3. I was thinking of them as being a shock/frost split, rather than shock/physical.

    That said, for the Shadow Elf Shamans I was actually thinking Shock Bolts, but obviously got the two confused. *facepalm* Either would probably work, though, it’s just a question of dual versus single channel. Personally, with the ability to tame shadow demons in there, I think reverting to poison bolts and entangle would also be reasonable… especially if we also include Shadow Walking Aura. On the other hand, having Shadow Elf shamans use shock – a channel that shadow elves already have plenty of – as opposed to blight could be seen as a light nerf that can offset improved capabilities elsewhere.

    How about a shock pulse tank ? Image a unit that looks a bit like a Spelljammer, that just uses an ability that deals 25 Shock damage to all units in two hexes around it. Its a lot riskier, but potentially just as strong, in different circumstances.

    Very similar to the Juggernaut’s cannon barrage, except that can keep doing it indefinitely… but also don’t have another attack they can use short of ramming.

    In and of itself… I think it’s likely to make the unit quite a bit less effective. It might work, however, if we gave it two attack modes: one that allows it to strike a single target within range with an electric discharge, and one that goes full-on tesla coil in all directions.

    Another possibility… could we make a tank that effectively fires chain lightning? It would be more effective against spread-out opponents, but doesn’t have the capability to hose down clumped targets like the traditional tanks. We can fine-tune the number of additional targets to whatever seems reasonable.

    (Note that we may still want to consider holding an idea for syrons later.)

    #250680

    Gloweye
    Member

    @gloweye: did you see my latest messages on Steam regarding the override issue on the Wiki? Seems to work for {{Martyr|race=goblin|rank=4}} but not for {{Unit|Martyr|race=goblin|rank=4}}. race=shadowelf also does not work despite the fact that I put in place all the “hidden shadowelf” stuff.

    most of that’s handled by the JS, which doesn’t recognize it.

    I think it’d be easier to just make your new templates just the racial variant. No need to compare it with the other races there. Only trouble you’re gonna have is it not always adding the correct new abilities on medal ranks.

    Just giving them nothing, though, would also be fitting. It seems to be typical for races to get 2-3 special units out of the warlord list, plus the manticore. Mounted Arcane Archers and magic-draining Phalanxes may well be more than enough for the Shadow Elf Warlord, particularly since this gives the Shadow Elf Warlord a lot of access to non-physical damage (normally a weakness for warlords).

    Im ok with just giving them nothing.

    I think it might still be worth some testing, but having a backup option if it does prove too powerful would be prudent. Lifesteal on a basic manticore is probably fine. Greater lifesteal on a Shadowborn-owned manticore which also has Martial Arts and possible other buffs as well… that could easily be too much.

    Dont think so tho. If you’re taking a manticore out having a retaliation for every blow you deal it while you’re only doing little damage…it’s not gonna work anyway.

    It’s basically a win-more kind of ability here – it helps you stay alive working through the lower rank units. Able to take the next one with more HP. It’s only going to be a help if you’re already having the advantage. I don’t think you’d be able to 1v1 a Dwarf Manticore, for example, with their Defensive Strike + Shield. In that sense, they’re like a Elf Manticore – great against lower tier units. (tho for different reasons, the elf reason being lower resistance.)

    It’ll also never be as OP as Total Awareness on Gryphon Riders 🙂
    (For those who don’t know, they had that early beta on RG 4. Play that as Shadowborn Warlord…)

    This is pretty much my thinking regarding Shadow Elf Shamans. Make them a little more expensive, and let them grab either animals or Shadow Demons.

    Heck, we could just replace Charm Animal with an ability that works like Charm Animal, but can also target Shadow Demons – Shadow Taming, perhaps?

    I was thinking to just give them both. After all, it’s not like animals and shadow demons are going to be running around together anywhere.

    Very similar to the Juggernaut’s cannon barrage, except that can keep doing it indefinitely… but also don’t have another attack they can use short of ramming.

    In and of itself… I think it’s likely to make the unit quite a bit less effective. It might work, however, if we gave it two attack modes: one that allows it to strike a single target within range with an electric discharge, and one that goes full-on tesla coil in all directions.

    Another possibility… could we make a tank that effectively fires chain lightning? It would be more effective against spread-out opponents, but doesn’t have the capability to hose down clumped targets like the traditional tanks. We can fine-tune the number of additional targets to whatever seems reasonable.

    Would could give it a chain lightning attack as well, and I kidna like that – again, circumstantial better than flame tank. Or if in addition to the Pulse Mode attack, hit only 1 additional target or something.

    #250685

    Draxynnic
    Member

    It’s basically a win-more kind of ability here – it helps you stay alive working through the lower rank units. Able to take the next one with more HP.

    It’s not likely to be decisive in any 1v1 setup. However, that ‘winning more’ can have a cumulative effect.

    Consider, as an extreme case: Your enemy has a seven-stack block of mostly tier 1s and maybe the odd tier 2. You have a single stack of manticores, and it’s your turn. What happens when you throw those manticores in?

    Most race’s manticores are going to get worn down by that fight. I’m not going to predict whether they’ll win or not, but every engagement is going to wear them down a little, and if they do win, they’re probably not going to be in any state to move on.

    Now, consider if they have lifestealing. In the initial attack, your one stack of manticores is facing three enemy stacks in on the battlefield, but with their mobility, they can probably all focus on one or two stacks at a time, allowing them to defeat the enemy army in detail without taking much damage, their lifesteal healing them back up and allowing them to move on to the next stack. After fighting four stacks in the initial battle, they can mop up the remaining stacks, where they have less chance of the enemy being able to outnumber them, and thus more chance that they’ll lifesteal more than they lose. So where the non-lifestealing manticores might come out of that fight badly wounded if at all, the lifestealing manticores might come out lightly injured or not injured at all and be ready for another fight.

    Now, that’s an extreme scenario, but the ability to rip through low-tier units and potentially come out uninjured is a significant strategic advantage, even if for that particular battle it’s strictly a case of ‘winning more’.

    The question is… would this be broken? Or would it simply be part of the character of Shadow Elf manticores that they’re a bit weaker against high-tier enemies but good at munching through weaker foes, and the way to counter them is to force them to pick on someone their own size?

    (And yeah. Total Awareness gryphon riders was… well, a demonstration of how certain abilities should never all be combined on one unit. Total Awareness, First Strike and Tireless… pick any two. Shame we didn’t think of a substitute gryphon RG, though.)

    I was thinking to just give them both. After all, it’s not like animals and shadow demons are going to be running around together anywhere.

    Probably not when fighting “creep” stacks (to use the Warcraft 3 term), but if there’s a way for players to get shadow demons, there’s a possibility that a player’s army will have both shadow demons and animals in it, allowing both abilities to be used in one battle.

    #250687

    Dr_K
    Member

    “Storm bolts” as an attack don’t exist in vanilla AoW3. I was thinking of them as being a shock/frost split, rather than shock/physical.

    That said, for the Shadow Elf Shamans I was actually thinking Shock Bolts, but obviously got the two confused. *facepalm* Either would probably work, though, it’s just a question of dual versus single channel. Personally, with the ability to tame shadow demons in there, I think reverting to poison bolts and entangle would also be reasonable… especially if we also include Shadow Walking Aura. On the other hand, having Shadow Elf shamans use shock – a channel that shadow elves already have plenty of – as opposed to blight could be seen as a light nerf that can offset improved capabilities elsewhere.

    I was basing that off of the Storm Bolts that were setup on the wiki for one of the Shadow Elf units, so I thought that’s what you were referring to. Keeping the standard shaman with Tame Shadow Demon & Shadow Walking Aura would work as well.

    We could also go a slightly less interesting route with class variations if we don’t want to over use the Shadow abilities and add inflict appropriate elemental debuffs like chilled, shocked, or some variations there of.

    #250690

    Gloweye
    Member

    (And yeah. Total Awareness gryphon riders was… well, a demonstration of how certain abilities should never all be combined on one unit. Total Awareness, First Strike and Tireless… pick any two. Shame we didn’t think of a substitute gryphon RG, though.)

    It was awesome 🙂 Did it in my first game during the beta, going shadowborn to add lifesteal. Having Global Assault, they have all three of those…One fresh gryphon could kill like 3 giants alone.

    Probably not when fighting “creep” stacks (to use the Warcraft 3 term), but if there’s a way for players to get shadow demons, there’s a possibility that a player’s army will have both shadow demons and animals in it, allowing both abilities to be used in one battle.

    Well, that’s like encountering a phalanx stack after you’ve gone full cavalry. You know it can happen if you play against a shadowelf-druid/warlord.

    #250712

    Dr_K
    Member

    I decided to muck around with the shrine’s particle effects and there were more on it than I realized. So we can actually give the shrine a more of a unique look without having to create a new model.

    Most particles were replaced with some version of the lightning particles of different colors.

    Here’s a relatively shoddy gif of the standard animation: http://imgur.com/a/HSQcy

    #250713

    Draxynnic
    Member

    I was basing that off of the Storm Bolts that were setup on the wiki for one of the Shadow Elf units, so I thought that’s what you were referring to.

    Hrrrmn. That sounds like it may have been mistranscribed – I’ve always conceived of Storm Bolts as being shock/frost. Arcane Arrows is phys/shock (although mostly the latter).

    Well, that’s like encountering a phalanx stack after you’ve gone full cavalry. You know it can happen if you play against a shadowelf-druid/warlord.

    Phalanx stacks can’t walk away with half your army, though. It’s also probably easier to avoid having cavalry than it is for archdruids to avoid having animals.

    Admittedly, though, the time it might be most likely to come up is shadow elf archdruid versus shadow elf archdruid, in which case they’re both stealing from each other… until the upgrade that makes animals immune to mind control kicks in.

    Here’s a relatively shoddy gif of the standard animation: http://imgur.com/a/HSQcy%5B/quote%5D
    Looks pretty good to me!

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by  Draxynnic.
    #250718

    Gloweye
    Member

    Yeah, looks good.

    BTW, “Tame Shadow Demon” should be named “Imitate Hive Mind”

    Then if we ever make a dwelling, we should make a Hive Mind upgrade, that gives all Shadow Demons you control Mind Control Immunity (They already are attached to a Hive Mind)

    #250723

    Dr_K
    Member

    @gloweye

    Did you ever get a shadow sickness like ability working on the Shadowrealm layer? Where are the layer penalties defined? I’m having a hell of a time trying to find how they’re defined.

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by  Dr_K.
    #250733

    Gloweye
    Member

    I believe the same ability as Night Vision could do it.

    #250740

    I wonder, do you guys have a probable release date for this mod? I have been following this topic from the beginning, and it something I really want to play to be honest!

    Also, keep the good work!

    #250741

    Hiliadan
    Member

    No release date! But I expect that we can finalize the Shadow Elf units and RG in about 1 month. Then we’ll need to create some content for the Shadow Realm layer itself (structures need to be finalized, new creatures especially Shadow Demons…) and we should be good.
    So I would say at least 3 months. I plan to draft a news article in March/April to give more info on progress.

    @all: Shadow Elves do not have Forestry right now, but they like Dense Vegetation. Should we give them Forestry? And what do we decide regarding Shadow Demon Slayer in the end? Keep it for all SE or not?
    I am compiling the consensus version for SE Warlord units right now (you can see current version on the Wiki), I’ll do the rest in the coming 2 weeks, then I’ll check the most recent posts.

    EDIT: by the way, I’m a bit disappointed that nobody commented on the video showing the Shadow Realm climate and the Shadow Elves! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJHCndRTx4U

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #250762

    vfxrob
    Member
    #250763

    Dr_K
    Member

    This should tie up my loose ends

    Shadow elven heroes

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/bnkeaokhpus1n4e/Shadow%20Elven%20Heroes.clb?dl=0

    Great! I’ll take get them integrated sometime this week.

    In other news:

    I’ve got the Shadow Sickness ability more or less working (currently on the Underground layer as a place holder). I ran with the Avatar skill implementation method similar to the one floated long, long ago at the beginning of the thread.

    Essentially, it’s an Avatar skill that every player gets by default at the start of the game. The skill affects every single unit (with restriction by Requisite types). It’s a non-stacking Layer Stat Modifier set to activate in the Shadow Realm. So every affected unit always has a “Vulnerability to Shadow Sickness” modifier.

    I am pretty confident that the vast majority of proposed effects/abilities are workable in some fashion around this implementation. Like Shadow Sickness Immunity enchantments just counteracting the effects instead of stripping the ability from the unit entirely. I’m planning on trying to get most of these working next so that we know precisely what we can and can’t do.

    #250837

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Dark Elves

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/u5l45hpsx3w1x6i/Dark%20Elven%20Units.clb?dl=0

    Thanks rob! 🙂 @gloweye: could you please integrate that to the DE Dwelling? 🙂

    @all: I am continuing to integrate the stats of DE class units on the Wiki… did maybe 40%.

    @all: Shadow Elves do not have Forestry right now, but they like Dense Vegetation. Should we give them Forestry? And what do we decide regarding Shadow Demon Slayer in the end? Keep it for all SE or not?

    Opinions?

    Also, normal Succubus have 60% Fire Resistance but Frostling Succubus have 40% Fire Weakness, which is quite weird, they should have 20% Fire Resistance.
    What do we do for SE Succubus?

    #250844

    Dr_K
    Member

    Opinions?

    Forestry makes sense, provided I’m not forgetting about something about the shadow realm. We should probably exclude shadow demon slayer until we actually have shadow demons.

    Also, normal Succubus have 60% Fire Resistance but Frostling Succubus have 40% Fire Weakness, which is quite weird, they should have 20% Fire Resistance.

    Not really that weird. Adding extra weakness was used to balance out added abilities without necessitating a price increase. I believe the succubus is the odd one out of the Frostling line up due to its base protections and increased damage on a new channel, but the prime examples are most of the Elven support units which have an extra 20% weakness to counterbalance the total awareness addition.

    Also, I don’t believe that we can have Ground Magic work as expected. It seems that dispel effects (with the decreasing failure chance) can’t be tied to other effects. We can however just have a some resistance channel check with dispel/damage buff application on success.

    #250846

    Gloweye
    Member

    Dark Elves

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/u5l45hpsx3w1x6i/Dark%20Elven%20Units.clb?dl=0

    Cheers and Good luck!

    Thanks. Got a slight issue tho – the weapons are stuck in the unit’s hands and therefore can’t animate. Any chance you can seperate them into seperate meshes ? They shouldn’t require any weightpainting, since weapons themselves have no animation.

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