Shadow Realm – Brainstorm

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Home Forums Modding and Map Making Shadow Realm – Brainstorm

This topic contains 1,098 replies, has 37 voices, and was last updated by  Refineus 2 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #272925

    Dr_K
    Member

    Another hiccup in the adding the Chariot Version of the Umbral Weaver.

    All of the Shadow Elf units need to be recreated in the Tigran Units rpk (at least one that can use the chariot rig).

    The Tigrans rpk is the only one that I know I can use the chariot rig in. So the Umbral Weaver needs to be created there. However, the race link data for SE can’t see the Tigran rpk and can’t add the Umbral Weaver. So for everything to be linked properly, the Shadow Elf units need to be put somewhere which can be accessed by the race link data location. Only known place currently is in the Tigran rpk.

    I’m going to start the process tomorrow unless anyone has a better idea.

    #272941

    Bob5
    Member

    Another hiccup in the adding the Chariot Version of the Umbral Weaver.

    All of the Shadow Elf units need to be recreated in the Tigran Units rpk (at least one that can use the chariot rig).

    The Tigrans rpk is the only one that I know I can use the chariot rig in. So the Umbral Weaver needs to be created there. However, the race link data for SE can’t see the Tigran rpk and can’t add the Umbral Weaver. So for everything to be linked properly, the Shadow Elf units need to be put somewhere which can be accessed by the race link data location. Only known place currently is in the Tigran rpk.

    I’m going to start the process tomorrow unless anyone has a better idea.

    At the risk of sounding really dumb, wouldn’t it be possible to copy-paste the chariot rig from Tigrans.rpk to the Elves package? The thing with moving the Shadow Elves to the Tigran package is that the Tigran package is a DLC package, which if I’m not mistaken would cause all the core Shadow Elf units to become Eternal Lords-only. As it is right now they’re also accessible in the base game and only units like Shadow Elf Reanimator and Shadow Elf Deathbringer are DLC-only, and the Storm Tower is Golden Realms-only but the other Shadow Elf buildings are accessible in the base game.

    #272986

    Dr_K
    Member

    At the risk of sounding really dumb, wouldn’t it be possible to copy-paste the chariot rig from Tigrans.rpk to the Elves package?

    Specifically the thing I need is the Template Resolver to be there. I thought they were only internal things that we can’t touch in any way. I’ll dig around and see if I can find it in an rpk or clb file that we can copy.

    The thing with moving the Shadow Elves to the Tigran package is that the Tigran package is a DLC package, which if I’m not mistaken would cause all the core Shadow Elf units to become Eternal Lords-only. As it is right now they’re also accessible in the base game and only units like Shadow Elf Reanimator and Shadow Elf Deathbringer are DLC-only, and the Storm Tower is Golden Realms-only but the other Shadow Elf buildings are accessible in the base game.

    Does the Shadow Realm Mod not have the dependency on Decodence? I thought that you couldn’t run a mod without its dependencies, but I might be mistaken since I haven’t messed around with that a lot? If so, then it shouldn’t matter since Decodence requires all DLC in the first place.

    #273023

    Bob5
    Member

    Does the Shadow Realm Mod not have the dependency on Decodence? I thought that you couldn’t run a mod without its dependencies, but I might be mistaken since I haven’t messed around with that a lot? If so, then it shouldn’t matter since Decodence requires all DLC in the first place.

    Didn’t think about that. I guess in that case it indeed doesn’t make much difference either way.

    Btw, when you’re in the mod, could you also link up the Shadow Demon units to the appropriate figures and the figures to the CLBs and everything? They’re all in Spiders.rpk, I fixed the unit entries so that they’re now Shadow Demon Type (which gives them Shadow Walker, Shadow Demon, Magical Origin, and Dedicated to Evil Requisites) but the graphical stuff is still not linked and I’m not sure how to do that.

    #273048

    Dr_K
    Member

    Yeah, I’ll do that. Once the models are linked in the Figure entry, all that is required is to select the wanted figure in the unit entry.

    Did we already have the Shadow Demon units created somewhere? I added the figures in the spider rpk to avoid the chariot issue, but forgot to check to see if we had placeholder unit entries.

    #273056

    Bob5
    Member

    Yeah, I’ll do that. Once the models are linked in the Figure entry, all that is required is to select the wanted figure in the unit entry.

    Did we already have the Shadow Demon units created somewhere? I added the figures in the spider rpk to avoid the chariot issue, but forgot to check to see if we had placeholder unit entries.

    I added them a while ago to Spiders.rpk. Everything apart from the model links should already be ready (as in, stats, unit sets, properties, medals, requisites, type, tier, etc)

    #273070

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Dr_K wrote:

    Does the Shadow Realm Mod not have the dependency on Decodence? I thought that you couldn’t run a mod without its dependencies, but I might be mistaken since I haven’t messed around with that a lot? If so, then it shouldn’t matter since Decodence requires all DLC in the first place.

    Didn’t think about that. I guess in that case it indeed doesn’t make much difference either way.

    The DLC requirements of mods are not important. We already had this discussion earlier in this thread. For instance the balance mod requires all DLC but if you have only the base game, you can play it, and it’s just that you won’t see the changes to the Halfling Farmers because you won’t have Halfling Farmers in your game.
    I don’t know what happens if you put some new entities in the Halflings’ rpk though: will you need GR DLC to see them? I don’t know.

    For the Tigran Chariot template resolver, looks like it’s here:

    Thanks Zaskow!
    So can it be copied to the rpk where we defined the Shadow Elves?

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by  Hiliadan. Reason: Added the template resolver link
    #273076

    Gloweye
    Member

    Infused

    I agree they are underwhelming. However, I would add more potential to Shadow Shift. Wasn’t it like supposed to be almost permanent for them ? They’re very close to the Touched for now, having just a bit more HP and shields instead of sprint. They already have the Frost Damage for permanent shadow shift. Just add incorporeal and 20 mana to production cost ? (Based on the Wiki, they’re 50 gold now, which is to cheap for that. But it’s also to cheap for a T2, where the Archers cost like 70 or 80, whatever it was.). Also, according to the mod tools, it’s a Tier 1 ATM.

    Umbral Weaver
    The Umbral Weaver is lacking an Elite ability.

    +1 for Pass Wall.

    Recruitment structures on the Shadow Realm
    We need two, one for Shadow Realm-related units, and one for the rest. What was the recruitment structure in AoW:SM?

    IIRC, there was none in SM ? And do we truly _need_ it ? There’s 1 recruitment structure in vanilla, and that’s the Inn, which only ever has racial units for sale.

    The recruitment structure for Athla’s forces should be a mercenary camp. We lack a model but we can probably use an edited Inn / Brigand Hideout? Lordoflinks, would you be interested in making such a structure? It would host the exact same units as an Inn I guess?

    Brigant Hidelout might just work, if we remove the red glow.

    By the way, should Athla’s Inn host Shadow Elves? I guess they will automatically actually?

    I think it’s more thematically appropriate to keep them seperate. They wont go in there unless we make it.

    Archon Legionairre.
    Throw Spear: 10 physical as Throw Javelin (I vaguely remember that it didn’t take AP in AoW2:SM, is that right?)

    IIRC, it did take your action. However, I think im pretty much fine with not.
    I would keep this an infantry tho. Especially in vanilla, pikes all are much longer than just the person-length spear that legionaires have. (and all are half as long as realistic pikes are). We could add Pole Arm for thematic appropriateness, but I dont think we really should want Pike Square in there.

    The ancient roman legionairres they’re inspired on weren’t pikemen either. They were shielded infantry.

    SE Military RG2
    “they use 5 Movement Points on the tactical combat map on the Shadow Realm” not displayed on the description. Cannot be implemented because the tactical map does not check for overlay or climate.
    So, reminder of the other options we discussed:
    – Protector Military: Shadow Elf Night Guard gain Ground Magic
    – Protector Military: Arcane Archers and Night Guards Magical Projectile Resistance (+2 res against elemental ranged damage)
    – Protector Military: Arcane Archers and Infused gain Armoured
    – Protector Military: Arcane Archers and Infused gain Infused Armour: Armoured, 20% Frost Protection
    – Protector Military: Night Guards and Exterminators gain +50% experience

    Another option would be to give Exterminator Athletics. So they would get -1 movement cost not just on the Shadow layer but on all layers. It’s my favoured solution.

    Im ok with alhletics and quick learner both. Athletics has the slight edge in my opinion.

    Use of Decodence RMG integration
    I’ll push the continuation of this debate to later as this post is already long.
    Initial post with recap of opinions: aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/shadow-realm-brainstorm/page/31/#post-258169
    The latest posts about this:
    http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/shadow-realm-brainstorm/page/33/#post-258645 (Hiliadan)
    http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/shadow-realm-brainstorm/page/33/#post-258653 (Gloweye)

    Also, opinion of Bob on “2/ Should we remove Decodence’s sites and climates (Tundra and Autumn) from the surface and underground layers?“: (sent on Steam) “You wanted to become completely independent from Decodence didn’t you? In that case I’d say yes.”[/quote]

    I said it before, I’ll say it again. THIS IS NOT OPTIONAL. The RMG is build on top of decodence’s. That’s how it was inteded from the start, before I started this thread.

    However, I’ll make a simple patch that disables those two climates, so people can choose whether they really want it or not. For the rest, drop the subject. It’s not going to change, because I dont feel like building the shadow realm RMG from scratch again.

    #273093

    Dr_K
    Member

    Will try to copy the animation resolver when I get a chance. I am skeptical that it will just work by copying it since it probably relies on other entities that we may or may not have access to.

    #273110

    Gloweye
    Member

    And otherwise, just add the Weaver into the tigran pack. It’s not that much of an issue. It can get it’s own link data, and unit sets go cross-pack by name anyway.

    #273111

    Refineus
    Member

    Storm Tower (defensive building)
    1a/ 11 shock damage on a random enemy unit outside the wall and Dispel Magic on all ADJACENT enemy units (not on the unit hit by lightning) every turn.
    FOR: HousePet, Hiliadan

    1b/ 8 shock damage and Inflict Shocking on a random enemy unit outside the wall on every turn.
    FOR: Gloweye

    1c/ 9 shock damage and Inflict Marked by Shadows on a random enemy unit outside the wall on every turn.
    FOR: HousePet

    1c – is much more unique.

    Infused
    The Infused is a T2 but has stats of a T1 because it has Shadow Shift, as explained by Drax. However, its stats are too low and we never really corrected that. Here were the proposals I made:
    So what about boosting it a bit (+1 def and a few HP maybe)?
    To make it more like a T2.

    More hp and the “armored” trait.

    Umbral Weaver
    The Umbral Weaver is lacking an Elite ability.
    Some ideas:
    – Pass Wall (inspired by the Weaver’s description written by Drax)
    – Freezing Touch (but might make it too much like an Ice Queen)*
    – an ability to transform climate to Shadow. Could be quite strong though. Could be a Path of Shadow, working like Path of Frost. Or could be similar to Last Rite of Winter but costing mana for instance.

    It also doesn’t have Veteran medal. Maybe we could move Inflict Chilling to Veteran, but I don’t have yet enough balance experience with it to judge if it’s too strong or too weak or balanced.

    And by the way, it’s a Chariot so it should get Charge, like the Sabretooth Chariot.

    More ranged boost on attack damage on the veteran level. If shadowburst ability counts as a ranged attack that is, ad a chilling effect to it’s ranged attacks on elite rank. If the units are pure melee then I would stick to “pass wall” if it does not look too wonky with a chariot climbing on walls?

    Celestial Pool
    I made proposals to complete the current visit effect of “heal living creatures when visited”:
    – give Undead units a new strategic healing that is added as a property for 3 strategic turns, that allow 8 HP healed / turn. (is it possible in combination with Cannot Regenerate? not sure)
    – gives True Sight and +1 Vision Range to visiting units for 3 turns
    – gives a random buff to visiting units from the list of Meditate but with the best buffs removed

    Gloweye preferred a full heal for Undeads too or no heal for them at all.
    Opinions?

    Full heal or a regen effect on undead sounds cool. (temporary)

    Recruitment structures on the Shadow Realm
    We need two, one for Shadow Realm-related units, and one for the rest. What was the recruitment structure in AoW:SM?
    The recruitment structure for Athla’s forces should be a mercenary camp. We lack a model but we can probably use an edited Inn / Brigand Hideout? Lordoflinks, would you be interested in making such a structure? It would host the exact same units as an Inn I guess?

    By the way, should Athla’s Inn host Shadow Elves? I guess they will automatically actually?

    I believe the structures were Circus tent, inn, critters den, rogue shack, druid circle and campsite which was dependable on faction. However, I’m not sure and dont have time to discover this right now.

    Archon Legionary
    Ok so based on the AoW2:SM’s Legionary http://aow2.heavengames.com/aowsm/gameinfo/units/archons.shtml#legionary and making it a Pikeman because of the Spear, here is a first proposal:
    Tier I
    Cost: 50 gold
    45 HP
    28 MP
    10 def
    9 res
    Melee: 10
    Throw Spear: 10 physical as Throw Javelin (I vaguely remember that it didn’t take AP in AoW2:SM, is that right?)
    Shield
    Pikeman (Polearm, Pike Square, First Strike)
    Archon (Dedicated to Good, 40% Spirit Protection)
    Walking

    Medal: Strong Will on Elite

    Sounds okay, maybe another 20% of spirit protection on veteran rank or a slayer boost against units dedicated to evil?

    Defender set #3 of the Forgotten Throne
    Replacements are needed for the 2 Dark Elf units that were planned. So I propose:
    Shadow Elf Umbral Weaver, Shadow Elf Exterminator, Shadow Elf Storm Priest, Shadow Elf Infused
    + Frost Dragon, Shadow Walker, Lesser Shadow Walker

    (also I see I need to correct the 1st defender set: it’s Lord + Harvester + Bombard, there should be no “Brain”)

    Maybe add thematically units that correspond to each elemental wizard? Artica = More frost…Yaka = more fire…etc

    SE Military RG2
    “they use 5 Movement Points on the tactical combat map on the Shadow Realm” not displayed on the description. Cannot be implemented because the tactical map does not check for overlay or climate.
    So, reminder of the other options we discussed:
    – Protector Military: Shadow Elf Night Guard gain Ground Magic
    – Protector Military: Arcane Archers and Night Guards Magical Projectile Resistance (+2 res against elemental ranged damage)
    – Protector Military: Arcane Archers and Infused gain Armoured
    – Protector Military: Arcane Archers and Infused gain Infused Armour: Armoured, 20% Frost Protection
    – Protector Military: Night Guards and Exterminators gain +50% experience

    Another option would be to give Exterminator Athletics. So they would get -1 movement cost not just on the Shadow layer but on all layers. It’s my favoured solution.

    I would say this one
    “Protector Military: Shadow Elf Night Guard gain Ground Magic”

    But, this one I like more and consider being the better one. Both are great options still.
    “Protector Military: Arcane Archers and Night Guards Magical Projectile Resistance (+2 res against elemental ranged damage)”

    Use of Decodence RMG integration

    I don’t know. I have not been following the discussion all too well. But, the layers from decodence are still broken and can be exploited in competitive PBEM games. So maybe fixing the bugs first before deciding on reducing the amount of mods.

    #273133

    Dr_K
    Member

    So, copying it didn’t work. I’m pretty sure there is some magic string comparisons going on since the Template Resolver entities don’t really contain anything of substance.

    Since we have a fix for it without recreating all of the units, I’m not going to fuss around with it too much.

    It can get it’s own link data, and unit sets go cross-pack by name anyway.

    I knew the unit sets would be fine, but totally forgot that there could be multiple race link data entries. That should fix the problem.

    Will get that and the SD figure-unit links settled some time tomorrow.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by  Dr_K. Reason: words
    #273141

    vfxrob
    Member

    Had a look at the background and foreground for both shad and archons ok except maybe the city light map could be 512 instead of 1024 rez. The main problem is also includes archon dwelling, anything where the geometry isn’t unique use the dependencies so if your link the archon to human foreground and background you dont need to add new meshs if its the same model but retextured, its just adding dead weight when you have the same models already available to call on. Same goes for shads if irs just the elf buildings retextured, had a look at the forgotten throne all those textures and materials could be using the vanilla the meshs have been tweak in placeme t so they are ok. Bottom line if its not custom then ot should be using the vanilla with dependencies

    #273154

    marcuspers1
    Member

    Here is my feedback on the suggestions:
    Storm Tower (defensive building)
    1a/ 11 shock damage on a random enemy unit outside the wall and Dispel Magic on all ADJACENT enemy units (not on the unit hit by lightning) every turn.
    Against, prefer 1b.
    1b/ 8 shock damage and Inflict Shocking on a random enemy unit outside the wall on every turn.
    For
    1c/ 9 shock damage and Inflict Marked by Shadows on a random enemy unit outside the wall on every turn.
    Against, prefer 1c

    The Infused is a T2 but has stats of a T1 because it has Shadow Shift, as explained by Drax.
    Agree to +1def and +5hp

    Umbral Weaver
    The Umbral Weaver is lacking an Elite (and veteran) ability.
    I’m against “path of”, should be limited to T4 units (I’m aware Yeti also have path of frost though).
    Cast Black Lightning on Elite would fit thematically, I think.
    Give it dispel at veteran, as other support units.

    Celestial Pool
    My preference would be a random buff from the meditate abilities.

    Recruitment structures on the Shadow Realm
    To avoid balance problems, I would advocate for the same units as in a normal inn.

    Archon Legionary
    Proposal looks good, the +60% spirit protection is rather strong for a t1, but not too strong.

    Defender set #3 of the Forgotten Throne
    Replacements are needed for the 2 Dark Elf units that were planned.
    What about also add SE/Draconian Manticore rider into the defender set? Not sure to also include the T4 demon. Otherwise 2 Frost dragons are always used? I think the T4 requirement is set to 2.

    Replacement for Warp Equipment for the Forge of Dreams
    If warp equipment dont work, might want to go for “Degenerate” a cheaper spell, but would do hurt more.

    SE Military RG2
    For, give Exterminator Athletics. So they would get -1 movement cost not just on the Shadow layer but on all layers. A very strong Rg2, but best among the suggestions.

    #273196

    Hiliadan
    Member

    I was thinking about the picture of the expansion, it could be something like this:

    with:
    – a nice background from Triumph’s existing picture

    Small update on this. I checked the pictures from Triumph and two could be useful:
    \Age of Wonders III\Content\DLC2\Campaign\Campaign Images\Halfling_Campaign_3_outro.png
    and
    \Age of Wonders III\Content\DLC3\Campaign\Campaign Images\FrostNecro_Campaign_3_OutroB.png

    Other ideas?

    #273200

    Dr_K
    Member

    Shadow Demons should be all linked up and added to the defender/spawn sets.

    New SE class icons were also added.

    The new mod is probably incompatible with old saves due to the changes with the Umbral Weaver. The old unit no longer exists.

    #273206

    Hiliadan
    Member

    The new mod is probably incompatible with old saves due to the changes with the Umbral Weaver. The old unit no longer exists.

    Yeah, I was concerned about that but forgot to post about it. It’s better if we can avoid breaking our 2 test games. Could you please bring it back in the mod? It would be a unbuildable unit, like the Goblin Skewer.
    Maybe we need to revert to a previous version of the .acp to do that?

    #273214

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Ok, after discussion with Bob, it seems we need to revert if we want to keep the old Umbral Weaver and avoid crash in our ongoing games. So I back upped your file and reverted the working Shadow Realm.acp.

    So could you please redo the edits you did (you can find them in “Shadow Realm_back-up-new-Umbral-Weaver.acp” if needed) in “Shadow Realm.acp”? Sorry for the trouble, but that will help us move forward on balance testing (to avoid losing our 20 turns of tests in the first alpha test game). And that will also give us a nice “special unit” for rare cases (e.g. Campaign), with the Umbral without the chariot.

    #273244

    vfxrob
    Member

    Sorry i wrote the above on my phone while travelling so didnt have a lot of time too check it, your mod has a lot of double up with geometry and textures/shading thats why your mod files are huge, and is riddled with mesh’s and textures that are exactly the same in those that are ready available in the game. Use dependencies, how to load below, when you set the dependencies you don’t need to load in the models or textures you can use the existing ones already in game (my bad i thought everyone knew that).

    Keep the units models as are but relink vanilla mess and shaders (if they are not custom) through the appropriate dependencie, e.g., if I’m using a default high elf archer but has a new shader, i’ll link the dependence to the elf unit.clb and get that mesh (do not import it into your mod when its already available to use) if its a custom texture only then do i create my new texture and material. Hope thats clear.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by  vfxrob.
    #273256

    Bob5
    Member

    Something I want to bring up is the Altar of Elder Eldritch. As it is now in the mod it can’t be built. It’s a MCU but MCUs can only be linked to a single Strategic Map structure as far as I can tell. The Forgotten Throne comes in various different varieties, there’s one for Artica, one for Nimue, one for Yaka, and so on. There are several solutions to this, but I’m not sure which one is most wanted:

    1) Just get rid of the Altar of the Elder Eldritch altogether and scrap the MCU. This is by far the easiest to implement.

    2) Remove the variety of Forgotten Thrones and just combine them all into a single structure. I’m not sure if the different varieties behave differently in the RMG, and part of me fears for Gloweye’s genocidal tendencies if we make him change this stuff again. It’d also remove the variety of the structure.

    3) Implement duplicate Altar of Elder Eldritches which are identical, but each requiring a different Forgotten Throne, and make them mutually exclusive to build. The problem is that if you have multiple Thrones in the same city domain you’d see them all pop up in the build tree initially which would be weird, also in the ToW.

    4) Implement different variants of the Altar of Elder Eldritch, each giving a different unique buff to the city depending on the wizard. It’s the most time-consuming solution since we’d have to come up with unique stuff for every wizard, but might be the most appropriate.

    #273269

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Storm Tower (defensive building)
    1a/ 11 shock damage on a random enemy unit outside the wall and Dispel Magic on all ADJACENT enemy units (not on the unit hit by lightning) every turn.
    FOR: HousePet, Hiliadan
    AGAINST: Marcuspers

    1b/ 8 shock damage and Inflict Shocking on a random enemy unit outside the wall on every turn.
    FOR: Gloweye, Marcuspers

    1c/ 9 shock damage and Inflict Marked by Shadows on a random enemy unit outside the wall on every turn.
    FOR: HousePet, Refineus
    AGAINST: Marcuspers

    Infused
    Incorporeal was ruled out a long time ago because that would be totally unbalanced for a race with +2 resistance to in addition have an Incorporeal T1 (and the feedback from Marcus, Gladis and xlnt are all that the SE are already too strong). I don’t think we want to revert to that. The discussion was that we give them Shadow Shift and a RG that makes it possible to have cooldown 1 Shadow Shift, and we boost their stats.

    The idea of Refineus of more HP and “Armored” makes sense as we anyway have an issue of the model of Infused being Armored. So that would be for instance +5 HP and Armored (and +1 or +2 def).

    Umbral Weaver

    If the units are pure melee then I would stick to “pass wall” if it does not look too wonky with a chariot climbing on walls?

    Pass Wall is not Wall Climbing: you go directly through the wall as if you were a ghost (or like Floating).
    Umbral Weavers already have Inflict Chilling so the idea of adding even more of it might be redundant.

    So let’s go for Pass Wall at Elite.

    Celestial Pool
    So, in addition to the full heal for living, we would go for one of these two:
    – give Undead units a new strategic healing that is added as a property for 3 strategic turns, that allow 8 HP healed / turn.
    – Undeads are healed

    Also, idea of Marcus, a random buff from Meditate to any unit using the Pool.

    Recruitment structure

    There’s 1 recruitment structure in vanilla, and that’s the Inn, which only ever has racial units for sale.

    I’m not clear what you prefer: a Inn-like recruitment structure looking like a Brigand Hideout, which sells Shadow Elf units only?

    Archon Legionaire
    Ok so what about making the Throw Spear short range and no AP like the Throw Sunspear?

    Tier I
    Cost: 50 gold
    45 HP
    28 MP
    10 def
    9 res
    Melee: 10
    Throw Spear: 10 physical as Throw Javelin (takes no action point, short range, cooldown 2)
    Shield
    Infantry (Wall Climbing)
    Archon (Dedicated to Good, 40% Spirit Protection)
    Walking

    Medal:
    Polearm or Shadow Demon Slayer or Holy Champion or +20% Spirit Protection on Veteran
    Strong Will on Elite

    Defender set #3 of the Forgotten Throne

    Maybe add thematically units that correspond to each elemental wizard? Artica = More frost…Yaka = more fire…etc

    Yes, I hope to do that later for each of the Throne but that requires a lot of design work and it’s difficult because we actually don’t have that much choices if we want to avoid units Vulnerable to Shadow Sickness or which seem out of place on the Shadow layer.

    Marcus gave me an idea: I don’t know why I didn’t include SE class units before!!… So I’m adding class units to the 2nd defender set, so the Manticore he suggested + a SE Succubus.

    Replacement for Warp Equipment for the Forge of Dreams
    After discussion with Dr_K, the issue of Warp Equipment is that we can’t reproduce a random effect for battle enchantment it seems. So I suggest to go for a proxy and gives -1 defense, -1 melee and -1 ranged attack to affected units.

    SE Military RG2
    – Protector Military: Exterminators gain Athletics
    FOR: Gloweye, Hiliadan, Marcuspers

    – Protector Military: Night Guards and Exterminators gain +50% experience
    FOR: Gloweye

    – Protector Military: Shadow Elf Night Guard gain Ground Magic
    FOR: Refineus

    – Protector Military: Arcane Archers and Night Guards Magical Projectile Resistance (+2 res against elemental ranged damage)
    FOR: Refineus

    So we would go for the 1st one.

    #273277

    HousePet
    Member

    Re Altar of the Elder Eldritch issue:
    I’d say just remove the MCU and keep the varied structures, possibly with a small boost to their yields.
    Being able to create an Elder Eldritch didn’t seem to fit with the concept of the Forgotten Thrones for me.
    If we want to keep them available somewhere, either a new structure or hidden as a secret spell perhaps?

    Re Celestial Pool:
    The random Meditate buff sounds interesting, if it can be done.

    #273278

    Gloweye
    Member

    IIRC, The elder Eldritch at that structure was in relation to the Wizards still having part of their power, and that this is basically how Werlac got his.

    I’d say, make duplicates.

    #273300

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Shadow Realm closed beta
    We have implemented most of the things that were planned for the Shadow Realm expansion and we can thus exit the “alpha phase” and move to the “beta phase”. The aims of this new phase should be to:
    – finish the last bits that need to be designed or polished
    – improve balance
    – test the compatibility of the expansion with other mods and adjust things to increase compatibility

    Some parts are a bit less advanced than others, in particular the RMG still needs some work, and the campaign’s second and third scenario are still at the design stage.

    I’ll update the “public Wiki” page soon, to help beta testers understand the content of the expansion: http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Hiliadan/Shadow_Realm_Community_Expansion_Content

    In order to play with the expansion, please:
    1/ subscribe to the Decodence Map Editor Content and Decodence RMG Integration mods
    2/ download the Shadow Realm RMG.taf and SHADOW REALM.taf here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8tlc0m80ck5unqz/AAAw8Pnx2XJ1bTQX8In4nVjga?dl=0
    3/ put the 2 .taf in your UserContent folder
    4/ launch AoW3 and let the archive be unpacked
    5/ play with the 4 mods activated

    WARNING:
    – when generating a new random map after having switched on or off the expansion, please reset the settings to default, otherwise you may experience crashes.
    – if you create Shadow Elf custom Leaders, you’ll have to delete them if you want to switch off the expansion and use custom Leaders again, otherwise you’ll get crashes.

    These 2 issues should be fixed by devs in a later patch of AoW3.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by  President.
    • This reply was modified 2 years, 2 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #273352

    Draxynnic
    Member

    The Infused is a T2 but has stats of a T1 because it has Shadow Shift, as explained by Drax.
    Agree to +1def and +5hp

    The explanation I gave was on the basis of them being permanently Incorporeal.

    I still disagree with the idea that “Shadow Elves can’t have permanent Incorporeality because weakness to physical damage should be a race-wide weakness, and having permanent Incorporeality allows them to bypass that” – my opinion is, and remains, that having one unit that the Shadow Elves can bring which is strong against Physical but has an Achilles heel against other damage types (like most incorporeal units in the game) is entirely in keeping. But I’ve been outvoted there.

    #273358

    Gloweye
    Member

    The Infused is a T2 but has stats of a T1 because it has Shadow Shift, as explained by Drax.
    Agree to +1def and +5hp

    The explanation I gave was on the basis of them being permanently Incorporeal.

    I still disagree with the idea that “Shadow Elves can’t have permanent Incorporeality because weakness to physical damage should be a race-wide weakness, and having permanent Incorporeality allows them to bypass that” – my opinion is, and remains, that having one unit that the Shadow Elves can bring which is strong against Physical but has an Achilles heel against other damage types (like most incorporeal units in the game) is entirely in keeping. But I’ve been outvoted there.

    I’m on your side here.

    Also, the Infused’s melee attack already looks like the permanent shadow shift, and right now its just a harder to obtain Irregular with wall climbing instead of sprint. It is *extremely* underwhelming.

    #273397

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Storm Tower (defensive building)
    Ok so after collecting additional feedback from Zaskow, let’s go for:
    1b/ 8 shock damage and Inflict Shocking on a random enemy unit outside the wall on every turn.

    (except if other opinions are expressed now?)

    Infused
    I give them +5 HP and Armored (and thus +1 defense) for now. I bumped its cost to 60, in line with Tigran Sun Guards. We probably need to give it an even bigger boost to make it similar to a Prowler (70 gold, 52 HP). Maybe make it an especially tanky unit (but with not so-high damage output) wth an additional +1 def from the Armored and +4 HP to get in line with the Prowler.

    The Touched should see Sprint moved to Veteran (or entirely removed) IMO, but I leave that to later balance discussion on a “closed beta” thread, that I’ll open later. I agree that currently Touched and Infused are very similar, but it’s more because the Touched are too strong (compared to other starting Irregulars), than because the Infused are too weak.

    Archon Legionary
    I went for Holy Champion and Polearm at Veteran.
    Also I gave them Armored but didn’t change the defense.
    http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Hiliadan/Archon_Legionary

    Celestial Pool
    So the majority opinion seems to be to remove all the healing and instead add a Meditate effect (e.g. until next battle like for most Shrines). Can it stack with the normal Meditate?

    Recruitment structure
    Refineus listed the following from AoW2:SM “Circus tent, inn, critters den, rogue shack, druid circle and campsite”. It seems they had no name (Jean de Metz helped me check) but yeah, that’s what they looked like. I remember the Circus Tent. And we already have a model from Decodence. I’m not convinced by a Circus Tent as a recruitment site on the Shadow Realm though.
    A Druid Circle might make more sense, though it should probably be something like an Esoteric Circle, or something else, so as not to associate it to the AD.

    Noted the debate for the Forgotten Thrones, going to pick up on that later.

    #273408

    HousePet
    Member

    Celestial Pool
    So the majority opinion seems to be to remove all the healing and instead add a Meditate effect (e.g. until next battle like for most Shrines). Can it stack with the normal Meditate?

    I’d keep a healing effect as well. Meditate effects are interesting, but randomness can lead to uselessness. Also, it might not stack with normal Meditate.

    #273555

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Replacement for Warp Equipment for the Forge of Dreams
    We need a name for the battlefield enchantment of the Forge of Dreams. I suggested Equipment Instability Field: https://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Hiliadan/Equipment_Instability_Field
    Other suggestions from the Battlefield:
    Shadow Rust, Disintegrate Equipment, Shade fog, Dark Rust, Rotten Equipment, Decomposed Equipment.
    Other suggestions:
    – Refineus: Unstable archive, Scrap Trail, Envelop in shadows, Corroded Fog, Decaying Mist
    – Draxynnic: Disrupted Equipment “I’m visualising it as some of the equipment turning incorporeal (and thus less effective), so it could even be coupled with an effect where the penalties don’t apply (or are compensated for with some other bonus) against incorporeal creatures.”

    Visually, the equipments will still be there, so I would not talk about Disintegrate. The rust or instability or rot seems more appropriate. Maybe Rust Fog (I believe the Magma Forge has visuals of fog? I never see them because I play on low visuals). However a Rust Fog would affect all units on the battlefield, whereas this affects only a few units at a time.

    Umbral Weaver
    So what about renaming the new one Umbral Weaver Chariot?

    – Refineus: Corsair Raider, Shard Stalker
    – HousePet, Gladis: Umbral Weaver Charioteer
    – Draxynnic, Dr_K: Penumbral Weaver for the old one
    – Gloweye: Umbral Ghost

    Shadow Gates
    Initially, it was planned (due to technical reasons I think) that Shadow Gates would link only the SURFACE layer to the Shadow layer: https://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Hiliadan/Shadow_Realm_Community_Expansion#Link_between_layers There was no plan for UG Shadow Gates. I believe it is much more interesting in terms of strategy and balance so I would argue to move back to this design decision, even if it is now technically feasible to have Shadow Gates UG.

    FOR only surface: Hiliadan, Gladis
    FOR both UG and surface: HousePet

    Forgotten Throne’s MCU

    Something I want to bring up is the Altar of Elder Eldritch. As it is now in the mod it can’t be built. It’s a MCU but MCUs can only be linked to a single Strategic Map structure as far as I can tell. The Forgotten Throne comes in various different varieties, there’s one for Artica, one for Nimue, one for Yaka, and so on. There are several solutions to this, but I’m not sure which one is most wanted:

    1) Just get rid of the Altar of the Elder Eldritch altogether and scrap the MCU. This is by far the easiest to implement.

    FOR: HousePet

    2) Remove the variety of Forgotten Thrones and just combine them all into a single structure. I’m not sure if the different varieties behave differently in the RMG, and part of me fears for Gloweye’s genocidal tendencies if we make him change this stuff again. It’d also remove the variety of the structure.

    3) Implement duplicate Altar of Elder Eldritches which are identical, but each requiring a different Forgotten Throne, and make them mutually exclusive to build. The problem is that if you have multiple Thrones in the same city domain you’d see them all pop up in the build tree initially which would be weird, also in the ToW.

    FOR: Hiliadan, Gloweye

    4) Implement different variants of the Altar of Elder Eldritch, each giving a different unique buff to the city depending on the wizard. It’s the most time-consuming solution since we’d have to come up with unique stuff for every wizard, but might be the most appropriate.

    FOR: Refineus, HousePet (with Ice Dragons, King Serpents and Phoenixes for Artica, Nimue and Yaka), Gladis, Bob, Dr_K (Phoenix for Yaka and Ice Dragon for Artica definitely make sense.
    Other thoughts on the base units
    Nimue – Would a buffed Lord of the Deep or Giant Lost Mariner make sense for Nimue given her association with Humans
    Nekron – Buffed Bone Collector or Dread Reaper
    Mab – Buffed Stone Giant
    Arachna – Some spider as the obvious choice
    Wizard King – Elder Eldritch)

    I believe we need a MCU for this site. It’s the hardest in the game and it deserves a strong reward. And we don’t want 1 city to have 2 of its MCU, so ideally they should be mutually exclusive. In my experience, mutual exclusivity is not displayed on the ToW, cf. the Hero mods of Eomolch where mutually exclusive paths are not shown in each other’s ToW’s pages.

    So I would prefer solutions 3/ and 4/. And with solution 3/, I would hide all but one of the MCU from the ToW. As it is very unlikely for 1 city to have 2 Forgotten Thrones in its domain, the issue of having the MCU several times in a building tree should be rare.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    • This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    • This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #273556

    Refineus
    Member

    Replacement for Warp Equipment for the Forge of Dreams
    We need a name for the battlefield enchantment of the Forge of Dreams. I suggested Equipment Instability Field: https://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Hiliadan/Equipment_Instability_Field
    Other suggestions from the Battlefield:
    Shadow Rust, Disintegrate Equipment, Shade fog, Dark Rust, Rotten Equipment, Decomposed Equipment.

    Visually, the equipments will still be there, so I would not talk about Disintegrate. The rust or instability or rot seems more appropriate. Maybe Rust Fog (I believe the Magma Forge has visuals of fog? I never see them because I play on low visuals). However a Rust Fog would affect all units on the battlefield, whereas this affects only a few units at a time.

    Unstable archive, Scrap Trail, Envelop in shadows, Corroded Fog, Decaying Mist.

    Umbral Weaver
    So what about renaming the new one Umbral Weaver Chariot?

    Corsair Raider, Shard Stalker?

    Forgotten Throne’s MCU

    4

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