Shadowstalker Frost Aura

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Balance Shadowstalker Frost Aura

This topic contains 93 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by  inetryconydot 3 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #170382

    Ericridge
    Member

    I think it’s way too effective.

    They was generally frozen on 1st or 2nd hit.

    Crusader was veterans. Knight was recruit. Chance was around 30% I believe? Reminds me of the unnerfed sorcerer stuns. At very least this explains why goblin rogue has such a large empire.

    Inb4 someone thinks I lost the battle, I didn’t lose, I won.

    Anyways, I feel frost aura is very unnecessary for shadowstalkers when it have amazing physical resistance. Crusaders was hitting for just 4 damage generally with defend down.

    Idk, what ya think?

    #170387

    Bob5
    Member

    I haven’t actually encountered it yet, but I agree that I didn’t have the idea before 1.5 that Rogues actually needed a big buff to their late game, they had Age of Deception after all, which cripples entire empires. Shadow Stalkers may only be T3.5 in practice, but they lack some sort of big weakness that all the other elementals have. Most units that can take their frost damage well mostly deal frost damage themselves too, which the Shadow Stalker is immune to. I’m not sure what to make of Frost Aura however. The usual thing to do to deal with Stalkers is to pound them with priests that use a channel the Stalker doesn’t resist (like Humans, Draconians, Dwarves, or Tigrans I guess), and Frost Aura doesn’t trigger on ranged attacks. However, a smart Rogue player can really abuse it, for instance by using Quick Dash to make it move further and draw in loads of attacks of opportunity. Frost Aura can trigger on those and due to Incorporeal Stalkers can generally take them well. That said, it’s probably really late game that Dark Pact becomes active, and I think that if you want to get this as a Rogue you will probably have to delay getting Age of Deception active (I think Dark Pact is like 4000 research).

    And something Off topic, but did they update the graphics for frozen units? Frozen status never looked that way for me (I’m playing on low graphics).

    #170418

    Zaskow
    Member

    I think, Frost Aura must stay, coz Rogue is pretty weak against Dreadnought or Theocrat in late game. And Dark Pact is expensive enough.

    #170747

    I think it is fine. After all, it doesn’t really change how you use or fight shadow stalkers: quick dashing to get neat backstabs was already a great strategy. Frost Aura only makes it a little bit better. In straight melee, you already would try to use high frost resistant, like Horned Gods in leader stacks, or frost immune units. About the only units that have declined a great deal in effectiveness are Titans and Bone Dragons: 40% protection is just not enough to risk combat unless you have to do so.

    On the other hand, the presence of frostlings and the necromancer class makes frost resistance much more common, so a strategy of multiple high frost resistance creatures works well as a counter. Tigrans are more vulnerable, but they have their sphinxes and mystics. Even warlords have counters, especially since you usually pick a race with nice non physical damage. High Elves have their storm sisters, draconians dragon ancestry on horse archers, and halflings have the fireworks monster hunters.

    Shadow step is a much bigger boost: it allows the stalkers to skip the “point blank blast” stage of besieging a city without quick dash, since they can go from the 50% penalty rage to over the walls in one turn.

    If anything, the succubi getting a ranged attack is the best thing for the rouges. That turns a seduce and snatch, hit and run offensive unit (especially with the gold medal lifestealing and the elemental damage ones) into a unit that can also act as a high level defender.

    You should also remember that race governance is still unreleased, so conclusions about balance, especially in the late game, must remain tentative.

    #170780

    Ericridge
    Member

    Hmm okay, I shall await for eternal lords expansion and see how it is then.

    #170807

    Gloweye
    Member

    And something Off topic, but did they update the graphics for frozen units? Frozen status never looked that way for me (I’m playing on low graphics).

    I believe so, but I’m not completely sure

    Most units that can take their frost damage well mostly deal frost damage themselves too, which the Shadow Stalker is immune to.

    However, most of them are less dependent on Frost than a Stalker.

    That said, it’s probably really late game that Dark Pact becomes active, and I think that if you want to get this as a Rogue you will probably have to delay getting Age of Deception active (I think Dark Pact is like 4000 research).

    That’s correct regarding the costs and the late game, but it’s somewhat rushable since it takes the Unit Tech Tree spot, so you can plan for it. Still, it’s 5 times as expensive as the Stalker’s Tech itself, so it’s not gonna be viable to rush unless you manage to collect really large amount of RP.

    #171240

    alf978
    Member

    @gloweye,

    it’s still out of whack!!!
    There’s not a single class T4 that boasts anything near as much immunities as a SS.
    Name me just one that comes even remotely close, just one?

    You’ve listed the immunities yourself from the wiki, in another tread, it’s insane!

    No daze, no dazzle, no stun, no frozen, no nox. vlun., no severely poison, no immolated, no frostbitten, no scorched, no crippled, no bleeding wounds, no broken spirit, no choking, no enfeebling fever, no exhausting fatigue, no suffocate, no slayer’s doubt, no panic, no skin of oil… And I’m sure I’m still missing some!

    Plus, it’s the only Elemental without the summoning trait, another indirect buff (not that it would make a huge difference with 60 phys protect, but it’s just the principle of the thing) It’s stacked to the deck…

    (i’m not sure about degenerate, it should work, I believe. But I’ll have to test it when I get home)

    SS already come out earlier than a T4 obviously, and no T3 can compete with them, so there’s definitely a window where they reign supreme. Now with Dark Pact, they have a longer shelf life than a class T4!

    +1 def, +1 res (in ToW, iirc), shadow step, and frost aura, for 25% extra upkeep?
    So for 20 upkeep you get something that puts a T4 to shame and will be far more experienced/leveled by then!! Really? Oh, and add insult to injury, it’s an empire upgrade, so no disjuncting it.. :-/

    It’s out of whack!

    At least get rid of the Elemental tag, so it’s susceptible to de-buffing, like EVERY other T4 for crying out loud!
    I’ll learn to live with the frost aura, and shadow step if I can at least drop a skin of oil on it and immolate it… Something!

    Sorry for the rant, but it’s just mind-boggling to me!

    #171256

    Mythabril
    Member

    Maybe just reduce their hit points by 10 to 50. They would still have superior effective hit points against physical attacks but makes them more squishy against the damage types they are not immune/protected against.

    #171273

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Maybe just reduce their hit points by 10 to 50. They would still have superior effective hit points against physical attacks but makes them more squishy against the damage types they are not immune/protected against.

    That would be utterly silly that a T3 unit would have less HPs than most T2 melees and approaching some T1 melees.

    #171274

    Gloweye
    Member

    Plus, it’s the only Elemental without the summoning trait, another indirect buff (not that it would make a huge difference with 60 phys protect, but it’s just the principle of the thing) It’s stacked to the deck…

    It’s got magical Origin, which makes it just as vulnerable to Banish and Arcane Binding than any other summoned unit.

    (i’m not sure about degenerate, it should work, I believe. But I’ll have to test it when I get home)

    it does, and it completely wrecks them.

    Maybe just reduce their hit points by 10 to 50. They would still have superior effective hit points against physical attacks but makes them more squishy against the damage types they are not immune/protected against.

    That would make them the nr. 1 lowest HP T3 in the game.

    I’m not saying it isn’t strong. I am saying that you’ve got quite a bit of teching to do to get them that buff.

    That aside, there are loads of ways to obliterate them. Racial supports still work as good, though Shadow Step makes them a little better at closing the gap. Hellfire still melts them. As for the classes:

    AD: Horned God is Frost Immune. His Call Lightning hits the stalker for full, after which it get’s wrecked without dealing damage.
    Dread: Flame Tanks still work like miracles. Juggernaut’s Fire Damage is still high. Also, machines are immune to backstab, and have high Def, which makes the Stalker do really bad damage. Also, they don’t retaliate(which makes them not get frozen).
    Warlord: Kinda screwed. Get Drac/Elf Manitcores, or maybe Frostling Warbreeds. Phalanx is guard mode isn’t bad either, especially if you manage to get Stylite/Enchanted Armor versions. Tireless with GA, so they remain in guard, which Rogue has no way of breaking.
    Sorc: Shock damage == dead stalkers. easy as that. Node serpents are scarily efficient, since they can play the flanking game very good and deal load of shock damage.
    Theocrat: Shrines aren’t fun to fight against with stalkers. All their damage hits for full, and the Static Shield they get on Gold hurts. Also, Exalted can deal a lot of damage to stalkers trying to reach your back lines.
    Necro: Has it’s own tools as well. I’d recommand Wailers for good flanking damage.

    No class is completely without tools against the stalkers.

    #171278

    alf978
    Member

    Maybe just reduce their hit points by 10 to 50. They would still have superior effective hit points against physical attacks but makes them more squishy against the damage types they are not immune/protected against.

    Yes, and no. Early on they do need their hp.
    It’s just by the time you get Dark Pact, you can have 90hp elite SS, 100 & 110 champions ‘floating’ around.

    It’s really their plethora of immunities that irk me.
    Every T4 that’s out there I can deal with debuffing it after learning it’s weakness.

    But now the SS has barely any obvious chink in its armor. Yes, elemental dmg, but I used to engage a SS, tie it up with bruiser units, so my support can safely hammer away at it. But with xtra res, frost aura, and shadow step… Good luck draining it’s AP, it’s almost suicide to get close with your priests. Formations are almost useless now. And there’s not much opportunity cost to the SS to engage the support directly, none of the support elite abilities (daze, nox vuln, severely poison, stun, etc.) faze it in the least…, and you can’t ‘block’ for them…

    It just seems way too much!

    #171296

    alf978
    Member

    It’s got magical Origin, which makes it just as vulnerable to Banish and Arcane Binding than any other summoned unit.

    Banish, maybe, but it’s a crap shoot, and if there are too many of them it’s not much of an option, but rather a waste of cp.

    (i’m not sure about degenerate, it should work, I believe. But I’ll have to test it when I get home)

    it does, and it completely wrecks them.

    But that makes Wild adept almost mandatory if you want to have a chance to debuff them. That’s not cool, and not very fun.
    When EVERY other Class T4 can be de-buffed conventionally!

    More importantly, and related the point above, if I level my support units up, I can increase my chances to debilitate my enemy’s forces, even if they’re spammed. With the SS it’s almost an exercise in futility.. (i.e. I can hit multiple times to debuff them, one target or several, my choice; while Degenerate and Banish is a one shot deal, and I usually like to use my CP on something else after the first two rounds)

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>alf978 wrote:</div>
    Plus, it’s the only Elemental without the summoning trait, another indirect buff (not that it would make a huge difference with 60 phys protect, but it’s just the principle of the thing) It’s stacked to the deck…

    It’s got magical Origin, which makes it just as vulnerable to Banish and Arcane Binding than any other summoned unit.

    The DN upgrade and Monster Hunters’ slayer ability won’t trigger (used to be fine when SS were monsters 😉 )
    And MH’s are doubly screwed, since throw net doesn’t work either (just fyi, that isn’t listed on the wikia) Another example, where an ultimate upgrade ability doesn’t impact the SS… See a pattern here.. Lol

    Warlord: Kinda screwed. Get Drac/Elf Manitcores, or maybe Frostling Warbreeds. Phalanx is guard mode isn’t bad either, especially if you manage to get Stylite/Enchanted Armor versions. Tireless with GA, so they remain in guard, which Rogue has no way of breaking.<br>

    I often play with many resource sites, and Stylite AND enchanted Armor is still kinda circumspect to get reliably. And if you do find it it’s still quite a bit of setup to get it going.
    And staying in guard/tireless loses some it’s allure due to frost aura.
    And Drac/Elves, are we back to needing a particular race to deal with lategame Rouge? And the elfcore is better at stunning (which the SS is immune to) rather than the token shock dmg it deals. (i think we’re coming full circle on that 🙂 )

    No class is completely without tools against the stalkers.

    Is it REALLY too much to ask for, that SS are susceptible to conventional counters/de-buffs that EVERY other class T4 is subject to, in one form or another?

    Is the Rouge really in such a bad spot, that it really needed all that?
    (imo, it was right up there after the sorcerer and AD. A rouge has the best intel gathering and flexibility to exploit it in almost which ever way suited it best.
    Rouges have an unprecedented ability to set the tempo of game and with it almost always the initiative! That’s priceless!)

    #171321

    Zaskow
    Member

    What SS nerfs are you talking about??? Do you know, that SS are not very strong against Dreadnought and Theocrat in late game even with Dark Pact? SS are pretty vulnerable against some racial support. Also I don’t want to say about very high SS price for t3 unit (near t4 unit price).

    #171328

    alf978
    Member

    What SS nerfs are you talking about???

    Exactly, there aren’t any!!! LOL

    SS are pretty vulnerable against some racial support.

    But none of their ultimate abilities.. NONE!! Please don’t make me list them again.
    (Edit: (weaken, perhaps.. I’ll have to check on that one..))

    Let’s just take one of the many, many, obvious ones. Immolation. Every T4/class ultimate unit is vulnerable to it, except… surprise, surprise the SS…

    Stun, iirc, all T4’s are susceptible, except the Horned God, and yet again the SS.

    Daze impacts Horrors, Manticores, Horned God..
    Juggernaut & Holy box are vulnerable to sabotage/rust strike/rot for example..
    Not so the SS…

    And just for the heck of it, let’s throw in ‘throw net’, every T4… yada yada yada…

    Let me ask you a different way, if my behemoth responses didn’t make it obvious enough yet:
    What debilitating effect is the SS vulnerable to?

    It’s the elemental tag that’s making it immune to any debilitating effects.
    That was one of biggest boons that SS got in 1.4 (and it bother me back then too).

    Now it’s getting buffed even further but not being made susceptible to anything new in return. That seems alright to you?

    Do you know, that SS are not very strong against Dreadnought and Theocrat in late game even with Dark Pact?

    Are you suggesting I only play DN or Theo when facing a Rogue late game?
    Btw, DN/machines are highly susceptible to sabotage, which the Rogue can spam up the kazoo… No need for the SS to be an even greater ueber-unit! But I’m sure you already knew that…

    2nd Edit: Maybe I’m alone in this, that’s fine. And I don’t even mind to wait for EL, see how things are then. But at this point, it looks like the deck is highly stacked with no obvious drawbacks; and it’s exacerbating an already powerful unit, that has tons of stuff already going for it, in its own right!
    Personally, I say it again, I’ll learn to live with frost aura and shadow step, but I would like to see some its immunities to debuffs dialed back…

    3rd Edit (lol): I will concede that there is alot of additional multi-channel elemental damage present now, than what used to be there in 1.4. But I still feel giving the SS some vulnerabilities to elite upgrades/debilitating effects from supports isn’t entirely uncalled for…

    #171363

    Bob5
    Member

    Dreadnought is very vulnerable to Age of Deception, because machines lack morale boosts from terrain. Dreads don’t get much morale boosts for their army, they can only negate penalties with Suppress Nature, which doesn’t affect machines. Machines also can’t benefit from race happiness bonuses to their morale because they have no race. All they get is a bit of situational stuff like Empire Happiness (which is fairly hard now to keep up, it doesn’t give boosts for absorbing or founding cities anymore I think), winning battles, Imperial Authority, and being produced in happy cities (only lasts for 10 turns after production).

    Theos can handle it because I think Armageddon negates morale debuffs like the one from Age of Deception, and they have sufficient supports to damage Shadow Stalkers with, but Rogues can counter shrines with Sabotage and Smokescreen. Smokescreen also protects stalkers well because you generally need ranged attacks to bring them down relatively safely. Tigran Succubi will probably also happily eat those Prayer bolts, so they can act as good blockers while throwing curses and using Bane Fire (Seduce won’t work because Armageddon gives the entire empire Strong Will).

    It’s got magical Origin, which makes it just as vulnerable to Banish and Arcane Binding as any other summoned unit.

    Shadow Stalker is Mind Control immune, you can’t affect it with Arcane Binding. I’m not sure about Banish, but I think it runs on the Physical channel, which means it doesn’t have all that much chance to hit. If it fails it only deals about 10 damage due to Physical protection too.

    Btw has anyone already tried a bunch of Shadow Stalkers with Regrowth or Life Drain from the Serena or Inioch shrines? They’re freaking terrifying. Add a Warlord hero to cast Relentless army for Tireless on your stack as well as 20% more physical protection and you’re incredibly scary. Warlord Hero also grants spirit immunity and Charge command. 5 stalkers + Warlord Hero = scary as hell, especially if he also has Inioch or Serena shrines available. Only thing that you still need to fear is fire damage, with immunity to Spirit, Blight, Frost, and 80% Physical resistance. Find a Yaka shrine and you get that fire resistance as well.

    #171380

    Ericridge
    Member

    Doesn’t buffs from shrines last for only one battle? Send a single unit into battle and retreat it immediately then attack with your real army to dispel all the shrine buffs.

    #171395

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Daze impacts Horrors, Manticores, Horned God..

    Only the Manticores. The others have Strong Will.

    Also, Weaken works, and several touch activated abilities will still function against Elementals that are not protected against a given element.

    They are certainly strong, but there are also many ways to deal with them considering their cost, as others have mentioned.

    Specializations:
    — Fire: Of course.
    — Earth: Stone Skin and Slow may both prove useful.
    — Creation: Have you seen the modified Bane of the Unnatural? Even the old one made Stalkers cry if you’ve ever got the opportunity to try it. I’ve wiped a stack of Stalkers with a single stack of Elven Hunters with the previous version. The new one is even more punishing.
    — Wild: Degenerate and Pandaemonium.
    — All three of the Alignment Specializations have something, or multiple somethings, that might help.

    Classes were already mentioned above. Vault of Knowledge’s Focus Chambers, and Ancient Ruin’s Pillar of Stylites also provide elemental damage that Stalkers don’t resist naturally. Some other factors here and there, and then of course the Racial Governance provides some new opportunities as well.

    Perhaps Frostlings might be considered decent to fight against them with(Frostling Necromancers in particular have a combined 100% Frost Protection, albeit with their own drawbacks). Tigrans also bring Spirit and Fire damage, which may prove useful. So that’s really only Orcs(Priest does low damage, since half is Frost), and Goblins which should still have definite problems against them. The latter can mitigate it with Blight Doctors to a degree.

    Orcs and Goblins can still choose a class or specialization setup, or combination of both, that can make it work.

    #171438

    alf978
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>alf978 wrote:</div>
    Daze impacts Horrors, Manticores, Horned God..

    Only the Manticores. The others have Strong Will.

    Sorry to do this to you again, but, I beg to differ.
    Horned God, I think you’re spot on, I don’t play against/with them often enough,… there I am mistaken, and you’re correct sir
    But Horrors are susceptible to Daze. (Deja vu, 🙂 , I found a save game… see screenshot, It’s a small percentage and it didn’t trigger (60% spirit protection), but.. you get the idea)

    I think it is fine. After all, it doesn’t really change how you use or fight shadow stalkers: quick dashing to get neat backstabs was already a great strategy. Frost Aura only makes it a little bit better.

    It’s kinda what Chrys already alluded to. It’s the quick dash to close the space to annihilate HVT’s; perfectly legit… But now instead of one unit being cast quick dash on during a turn, and not being able to cast anything else, there’s potential for all of them (and there ought to be mulitiple SS, not just one or two, in the late game) that can shadow step, ‘frost aura’ themselves into the middle of your units; screwing your formation, and still cast mass panic, or anything devious like that. You can’t really block a SS that well, not that a pass wall, floating unit had any and all advantages in the world already, it’s even better now with a quasi-phase. Draining AP, not so much of a choice, very perilous and compounded by backstab!!

    And I admit, a lot of my apprehension most likely stems also from my playstyle (granted, i probably need to adapt now, and I’m working on it… 🙂 ) is to deal with mulitple T4’s by incapacitating as many as I can. And I prefer elite support units do that with, because it will provide me with multiple opportunities to trigger (It’s not just an all or nothing deal, something usually lands) and I still have my CP left to do what I need to be on the offensive, or assist, etc…. But that doesn’t work with SS, plus the very thing I need to take them out (again in plural, not just a lonesome unit by itself) are the priests for elemental damage. And you have a hard time keeping them safe… And what’s wrong with there being an opportunity cost for the SS to be immobilized by going for the support units, which do not deal elemental melee dmg anyway, and have to disengage eating backstab AoO’s! It’s like a no-brainer for the Rogue, with almost no drawback… Almost any other unit is still in danger of getting stunned, dazed poisoned, etc, when in melee with a racial elite support unit,… not the SS. It’s a double whammy…
    (And again, full disclosure, I’m probably a bit biased, since I play a lot of WL)

    Plus, if you compare them to other class T4’s, in terms of utility, cost, upkeep, window of usefulness, capabilities, inherent immunities, etc., it just seems plain out of proportion…

    And I guess that’s my whole point.
    But I’ll echo Ericridge’s sentiment again; I’m willing to wait until EL, and go from there 🙂
    (Right now though, it’s just seems out of whack to me)

    Attachments:
    #171443

    Prodigal Sun
    Member

    Shadow Stalkers by all means but there are more units that come out quicker and stay a threat all game out. Good example is Exalted, who you can level super quick in singleplayer or you research and build a stack of them before turn 30. From then on they can clear anything, and if you don’t kill the whole stack they will be back when the fight is over.

    I prefer Exalted in singleplayer and now I prefer them in multiplayer too.

    Dark Pact is 4200 research on top of 800 for a tier 3 unit that cost 240 production, more than any T3 would ever cost. All of that comes out super late – I haven’t met one Emperor Rogue that has managed to get it against me before it was over. But I don’t slow play so I cannot say what happens if they freely expand. Stalkers with Dark Pact are strong alright but tossing up Bane of Unnatural is a super effective counter.

    #171449

    alf978
    Member

    Dark Pact is 4200 research on top of 800 for a tier 3 unit that cost 240 production, more than any T3 would eer cost.

    I guess, that’s part of my argument. I’m not even bothering to compare them to other T3’s, I’m looking at class T4’s and the SS more than holds its weight. Which is why I think this whole equation is somewhat out of balance…

    But I don’t slow play so I cannot say what happens if they freely expand.

    That’s a fair point, I often play on L or XL and on slow (not the super slow setting).

    And, also, obviously, you, Fen, Chrys, Gloweye & JLP, all seem in agreement that it’s not the worst thing in the world. And if all you guys are united in this, I’m willing to give that some credence as well, and extent the benefit of the doubt to you guys.

    On paper, to me, it appears kinda of ridiculous… Right now, I’m purposely leaving a Rogue Emperor AI alone, to be the last one standing to get more specific references. It just so happens that that game crashed LOL. I’m hoping one of the updates will fix it.. 🙂

    Anyway, I’ll get off my soap box now..

    #171451

    Ericridge
    Member

    The Rogue I fought and defeated is King difficulty. That battle took place in his throne city while he was in void but then aow3 crashed.

    I can attest to what some people mean, I was marching my dudes to the walls then all the shadowstalkers phased across the field and backstabbed half of my priests. There was only six or seven shadow stalkers. I brought like six priests. 10 Crusaders. And one archdruid hero which had two shadow stalkers on him. One recruit knight. Emerged victorious despite the enemy having a bunch of shadow stalkers with dark pact and several succubuses and goblin beetle riders. I have armageddeon up so my smites was oneshotting shadowstalkers almost every time they dropped their defend mode to backstab. Even managed to oneshot one shadow stalker with Defend mode up.

    I probably should support Shadowstalkers to being made dazeable by human priests. After all, people recruit the human priests for healing plus daze ability on elite. And horrors can be dazed by them and it’s a summon but shadowstalker being more stronger than a summon for some reason. And plus, Elite priests isn’t commonplace, once they’re dead, that’s it unless you got CP for resurrect and took creation mastery.

    #171505

    Bob5
    Member

    I might be looking at it from a different angle now, because in my current game I’m Destruction Mastery Explorer Goblin Warlord. I don’t have any problems with the undead, the wraiths don’t have that insane offense and the skeletal undead are quickly dealt with by swarming them with Warg riders. Even Titans and Bone Dragons go down quite fast once I cast Wreck + Weaken on them. But Destruction Mastery has nothing a all to deal with Shadow Stalkers, maybe Disintegrate if you get really lucky. Goblin Warlords can usually overcome Stalkers by sheer numbers of Warg Riders, but that doesn’t work when attacking for instance Forgotten Sanctums with Shadow Stalker guardians, because you can only attack those with a single stack.

    #171512

    haloloki
    Member

    I was gonna make a thread about this, but ill just put it here some ideas and what you guys think of them

    1. 20% weakness to spirit,fire and shock. Reasoning: shadow stalkers hate light?
    2.freezing gives 100% frost protection. So you have to rely more on youre other forms of damage to finish the job (would be a nerf to rogue frostlings)
    3 maybe replace frost aura with fearsome and/or place it at elite rank (either the frost aura or fearsome)
    4. lower chance of freezing on flanking shots(dont know if it already does this)

    #171554

    Gloweye
    Member

    And MH’s are doubly screwed, since throw net doesn’t work either (just fyi, that isn’t listed on the wikia)

    That’s because they’re incorporeal, not because of elemental.

    But none of their ultimate abilities.. NONE!! Please don’t make me list them again.
    (Edit: (weaken, perhaps.. I’ll have to check on that one..))

    Weaken works pretty good.

    Shadow Stalker is Mind Control immune, you can’t affect it with Arcane Binding. I’m not sure about Banish, but I think it runs on the Physical channel, which means it doesn’t have all that much chance to hit. If it fails it only deals about 10 damage due to Physical protection too.

    True. Didn’t consider that.

    Btw has anyone already tried a bunch of Shadow Stalkers with Regrowth or Life Drain from the Serena or Inioch shrines? They’re freaking terrifying.

    Yes I did. My AI opponents didn’t like it.

    I guess, that’s part of my argument. I’m not even bothering to compare them to other T3′s, I’m looking at class T4′s and the SS more than holds its weight. Which is why I think this whole equation is somewhat out of balance…

    Difference is that the rogue unit tree up to SS is about intensive as the complete one of the other classes, but rogue needs another 4000 RP tech to get those levels of effect we’re talking about here.

    but that doesn’t work when attacking for instance Forgotten Sanctums with Shadow Stalker guardians, because you can only attack those with a single stack.

    Those won’t have Dark Pact active, so they’re the normal version.

    In general, it’s going to be REALLY LATE when Dark pact comes out. It’s going to delay the hated Age of Deception.(or the other way around..) I don’t know how much PvP has been played, but is there someone who managed to reach it yet?

    #171666

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    OK, I had a look and I agree that Dark Pact shadow stalkers might be a little overkill. To try and fix it, I’ve removed the +1 resistance bonus from Dark Pact (this affects all the units, not just the SS). It’s just overkill anyways, considering what else Dark Pact gives. This leaves the Shadow Stalker with it’s normal resistance of 11, so it’s not quit so tough versus Fire/Spirit/Shock.

    #171730

    That is probably fine, but I wouldn’t take anymore off. Dark pact helps the late game rogue remain challenging after your elemental damage high tier units come out.

    #171890

    syntax_vi
    Member

    OK, I had a look and I agree that Dark Pact shadow stalkers might be a little overkill. To try and fix it, I’ve removed the +1 resistance bonus from Dark Pact (this affects all the units, not just the SS). It’s just overkill anyways, considering what else Dark Pact gives. This leaves the Shadow Stalker with it’s normal resistance of 11, so it’s not quit so tough versus Fire/Spirit/Shock.

    Hmm, Is there any way you can make the +1 resistance effect all class units except the shadow stalker?

    25% upkeep is pretty steep on the other units without this buff.

    perhaps the best solution would be to keep the res buff but make dark pact disjuctable?

    given the choice between all units losing the +1 res or the shadow stalker being slightly op i’d choose the SS being op.

    As to Ecbridges example, what would have happend without dark pact? The rogue would be in a terrible spot with little to do.

    Other t4’s may not have the same set of resistances but many of them do have cool tricks to siege cities with, or nasty AoE’s. Juggernaught’s and Horned gods can simply sit back and pummel your position with lightning / mortars, horrors can aoe and dominate anything that gets close. Manticores are cheap and can fly for easy flanks, also come with some pretty effective discounts to keep upkeep at 25-50% off most of the time.

    Pre dark pact keeping a rogue at bay was pretty damn easy, despite them being impressive on paper. With dark pact they are an actual threat, which they should be.

    the +1 res was nice to get the other class units up to snuff and viable, i don’t necessarily think that the SS needed it as much, but am sad to see it go for the rest of them.

    Possibly another ability for the Bard and Assassin would be in order? Succubi may or may not be ok, but again 25% upkeep is fairly steep.

    #171897

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Dominate is worth +25% upkeep. Bane Fire on an otherwise melee-only Support unit is worth +25% upkeep. Shadow Step and Frost Aura are damn well worth +25%.

    …Assassins gaining an ability which they would otherwise gain anyway at Elite rank(Tigrans aside, due to getting Pounce at Elite instead)… not exactly worth +25%.

    The bonus stats factor into considerations, of course. Also, don’t forget that the +melee strength applies to all damage channels(I think?), making extra damage channels worth more as well if true.

    Anyway, I would say that the Bard, Succubus and Shadow Stalker are all definitely still worth it after Dark Pact’s +25%.
    Assassin’s… are certainly still worth producing(circumstantially, considering the obvious access to Shadow Stalkers at such a time), but functionally gain less from the research than the other units. At Elite rank, the only thing they even gain in comparison to normal Assassins is the same stat bonus as having a Mercenary Camp Mystic Site.

    #171906

    Gloweye
    Member

    the +melee strength applies to all damage channels(I think?)

    It does.

    Hmm, Is there any way you can make the +1 resistance effect all class units except the shadow stalker?

    My major problem with this would be how to communicate this to the player. There should always be as much clarity as possible, and “All your class units except the Scoundrel and Shadow Stalker gain +1 Resistance” doesn’t improve clarity.

    #171911

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Yeah, I’d rather tweak the assassin, to be quite honest! Open to ideas about abilities to give the Assassin for Dark Pact, but please:

    1) It must be an existing ability, I’m very close to the point where I can’t add new text to the game, since we’re running out of time to translate it all.

    2) It should thematically fit with assassins and darkness, if possible.

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