Should all T4 angels have Strong Will?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Should all T4 angels have Strong Will?

This topic contains 32 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  OLLY24 7 years, 7 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 33 total)
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  • #184335

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Note the title. Or at least Mind Control Immunity? For both balance (most comparable T4s do) and theme/lore purposes?

    #184343

    Chimaira
    Member

    I think they should. Actually I was shocked when I found out that they dont have it. Most if not all T4 have mind control immunity in some form so there is no reason to exclude angels. Perhaps it was a simple oversight of the devs?

    #184345

    Bob5
    Member

    I think Giants don’t have Mind Control Immunity either, apart from the Horned God.

    #184348

    SaintTodd
    Member

    Angels are summoned, is it reasonable to think that if must appear if summoned, that they lack Strong Will? I’m just asking.

    #184354

    Gloweye
    Member

    IMO, they should have Mind Control Immunity.

    #184359

    Well, the cthonic guardian and fallen angel are otherwise so good at their jobs that there needs to be some counter. They guardians get instant wrath, for the all father’s sake, and fallen angels can be ghouled to get life steal and drain at once.

    Since the angels are always summonable, they need clear weaknesses. And it isn’t like it is easy to do this on them. You can always go WL for strong will guardians. On second thought, mind control immunity is fine on the fallen angel. Sort of a last remnant of strong will.

    #184362

    I don’t think they should.
    They already have the limitation of their dedicated trait. So if someone manages to mind control them while being the wrong ideal they’ll likely desert soon. And if they are the right alignment, there is no reason the angel can’t be convinced the new guy is the better one.

    Also I think Mind Control immunity is too ubiquitous as is already, many class units and most higher tier units have it already. Even wyvern. There’s far too many units already immune to MC, no need to make more.

    #184491

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Also I think Mind Control immunity is too ubiquitous as is already, many class units and most higher tier units have it already. Even wyvern. There’s far too many units already immune to MC, no need to make more.

    This is precisely an argument for them to get it, as it is too huge a disadvantage not to have them as a T4.

    #184507

    quo
    Member

    I would prefer they not have it. IMO mind control immunity is handed out much too freely in this game. It gets sort of tiresome when every single unit is simply immune to mind control in the late game.

    Anyway, I think there are good lore reasons why an angel, or particularly a fallen angel, would be vulnerable to temptation.

    They are good units as is. Let them keep this vulnerability. That’s the price of getting a T4 summon from a sphere spell.

    #184513

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Anyway, I think there are good lore reasons why an angel, or particularly a fallen angel, would be vulnerable to temptation.

    Fine; then make Fallen Angel without it but give it to the rest.

    #184519

    zeelilus
    Member

    That leads to the awkwardness of “All angels are immune…except those.”

    Everything in the game has a set of weaknesses. I fail to see why mind control can’t be the angel’s.

    #184535

    This is precisely an argument for them to get it, as it is too huge a disadvantage not to have them as a T4.

    No, it is not. The solution for “too much X” is not “more X”.
    Unless your argument is every unit should have MCI. Or every unit besides T1.
    I am very happy that the angels are a T4 without pointless immunity to interesting abilities, and I wish for more higher and medium tier units to follow that example.

    #184542

    Epaminondas
    Member

    No, it is not. The solution for “too much X” is not “more X”.<br>
    Unless your argument is every unit should have MCI. Or every unit besides T1.<br>
    I am very happy that the angels are a T4 without pointless immunity to interesting abilities, and I wish for more higher and medium tier units to follow that example.

    1. You begin with a straw man argument; usually, when one’s position is bankrupt, he attributes to the opposition the argument that the latter never even remotely made.

    So to clarify yet again: I specifically said that most T4s should have Mind Control Immunity, and NOT all units or non T1 units. So please save your hay.

    2. My main argument about angels needing Strong Will or Mind Control Immunity is essentially as follows, if I did not flesh it out sufficiently. At the moment, most T4 units have Strong Will or at least Mind Control Immunity, and that ensures them against arguably the most dangerous and common form of counter to T4s. So when a T4 unit does not possess it/them, then it massively nerfs them relative to other T4s, requiring, in my opinion, massive boosts to those T4s without such protection. In this context, I am not sure whether any of the T4 angels are strong enough to compensate for that Achilles Heel.

    #184572

    ninninnin
    Member

    well with bards losing mind control immunity they seem to be toning back the availability of it.

    whats bothersome about it is that without mind control immunity angels are vulnerable to fearsome units. those shock troopers must say some horrible things. with spirit weakness isnt dark angel extra vulnerable to these things? funny that she would be the most vulnerable to invoke death.

    they have plenty of weaknesses, though im not sure how significant they are in an actual fight with their very large defense. none of them have outstanding resistance or elemental resistances though

    #184589

    1. You begin with a straw man argument; usually, when one’s position is bankrupt, he attributes to the opposition the argument that the latter never even remotely made.

    So to clarify yet again: I specifically said that most T4s should have Mind Control Immunity, and NOT all units or non T1 units. So please save your hay.

    Argumentative bankruptcy? Now who’s arguing in bad faith?

    I made a claim that there is too much MCI, and as an example gave Wyvern.
    Wyvern are T2 units.
    You made no argument but claimed mine was (despite the literal meaning of the words I wrote) actually an argument in favor of more MCI. There was no claim of your own besides your preference for more MCI specifically on angels and the disadvantage its lack causes them. So I asked if your argument is all-encompassing MCI, as you literally claimed my complaint about some T2 having it to be an argument for your reasoning.

    And now you’re blaming me for stating that?
    How about you don’t try to twist my arguments and just take them at face value and reply with your own instead of attacking me?

    2. My main argument about angels needing Strong Will or Mind Control Immunity is essentially as follows, if I did not flesh it out sufficiently. At the moment, most T4 units have Strong Will or at least Mind Control Immunity, and that ensures them against arguably the most dangerous and common form of counter to T4s. So when a T4 unit does not possess it/them, then it massively nerfs them relative to other T4s, requiring, in my opinion, massive boosts to those T4s without such protection. In this context, I am not sure whether any of the T4 angels are strong enough to compensate for that Achilles Heel.

    And my counter is two-fold:
    – Too many units have MCI. I would prefer MCI to be a significantly rarer trait among units and more exclusive like Willpower (basically MCI) was in Shadow Magic (And there was even an ability to remove Willpower). So relatively speaking it is a slight disadvantage compared to other T4 (but given the resistances and Resistance stat not much of one), but giving it to them would just make the situation worse. Instead MCI should be removed from a number of units.
    – All three angels have a soft version of MCI. It is their “Dedicated to ..” trait. Even if an Angel is mindcontrolled (or ghouled) the new owner still has to abide by the same alignment restrictions the old one had to or the angel will simply desert him.
    If the evil Necromancer steals your Arch Angel, he has on average 5 rounds until the angel is gone. Seems perfectly fine by me. It means you have to take care of them to not lose them and so does the enemy. Far preferable to blanket immunity.
    And I would prefer more soft limits like that to the hard MCI. Again older AoW titles are a nice example as even if you stole some units, they would still evaluate your alignment and disposition towards their race. And leave if they didn’t like it. And the new racial happiness in EL is an aspect of that I am quite happy about seeing again.

    #184598

    Theik
    Member

    Mind control is a one-shot move and is easy to deal with. Just kill the squishy thing that mind controlled them, or pop your Break Control on them. Basically every hero gets a form of Break Control it seems, as do units like the Nightshade Fairy and the Tigran Mystic.

    Your opponent is going to look pretty silly spending their mind control on an angel, only for you to instantly break it again.

    #184600

    Gloweye
    Member

    well with bards losing mind control immunity they seem to be toning back the availability of it.

    Bards never had it.

    whats bothersome about it is that without mind control immunity angels are vulnerable to fearsome units.

    Mind Control ONLY protects against the full kind, and it doesn’t prevent Fearsome and it’s like. Those are just “normal” spirit debuffs.

    #184602

    Well, it is more about the failure than the success, as halting a unut like that even for a turn can be essential. It also takes something of a risk to undo the control, as failure either wastes a spell casting turn, or pits a hero or support near an angry powerful unit.

    Not that I’m against vulnerabity (especially for the Grey guard cthonic guardian), as it makes fighting the units tactically interesting.

    #184608

    Theik
    Member

    Break Control is a 100% certain way to get them out of controlled status, as well as giving them Strong Will for a turn, so it’s a skill that is always worth having around.

    Failing that, most things that can mind control your angels are going to be relatively squishy. Make them go splat! =D

    #184650

    Gyor
    Member

    I don’t think they should.<br>
    They already have the limitation of their dedicated trait. So if someone manages to mind control them while being the wrong ideal they’ll likely desert soon. And if they are the right alignment, there is no reason the angel can’t be convinced the new guy is the better one.

    Also I think Mind Control immunity is too ubiquitous as is already, many class units and most higher tier units have it already. Even wyvern. There’s far too many units already immune to MC, no need to make more.

    I agree, besides giving them mind control immunity just gives necromancers another advantage, as they’d still be ghoulable.

    So I say no to mind control immunity, the vulneriblity makes them more interesting.

    #184652

    Gyor
    Member

    Mind control is a one-shot move and is easy to deal with. Just kill the squishy thing that mind controlled them, or pop your Break Control on them. Basically every hero gets a form of Break Control it seems, as do units like the Nightshade Fairy and the Tigran Mystic.

    Your opponent is going to look pretty silly spending their mind control on an angel, only for you to instantly break it again.

    So does dispel enchantment. Not sure about Transfer Enchantment.

    #184659

    ninninnin
    Member

    Mind Control ONLY protects against the full kind, and it doesn’t prevent Fearsome and it’s like. Those are just “normal” spirit debuffs.

    did berserkers used to have full will instead of mind control immunity? the type with 100% spirit resistance? cause i remember them never running from fearsome units. but it may have just been lions courage

    #184666

    quo
    Member

    I actually feel Strong Will itself is overpowered. 100% Spirit immunity and mind control immunity on top of that. It ought to be reserved for only the pinnacle of units, and they should pay dearly for it. I always found it funny that a hero can buy it for around 4 points.

    100% spirit protection, or even 70-80% would have been enough on its own. And then still leave open the possibility of a spirit debuff causing the unit to still be affected.

    #184687

    Gloweye
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Gloweye wrote:</div>
    Mind Control ONLY protects against the full kind, and it doesn’t prevent Fearsome and it’s like. Those are just “normal” spirit debuffs.

    did berserkers used to have full will instead of mind control immunity? the type with 100% spirit resistance? cause i remember them never running from fearsome units. but it may have just been lions courage

    lion’s courage could be the issue here, cause I know for sure I’ve seen the Beserkers run.

    #184717

    ninninnin
    Member

    i noticed slayers doubt also working on them. seems to go against the entire theme. suddenly they feel remorse and question the path of violence

    #185064

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I made a claim that there is too much MCI, and as an example gave Wyvern.<br>
    Wyvern are T2 units.<br>

    You made no argument but claimed mine was (despite the literal meaning of the words I wrote) actually an argument in favor of more MCI. There was no claim of your own besides your preference for more MCI specifically on angels and the disadvantage its lack causes them. So I asked if your argument is all-encompassing MCI, as you literally claimed my complaint about some T2 having it to be an argument for your reasoning.

    And now you’re blaming me for stating that?<br>

    Ok, I don’t want to get bogged down in an unproductive, “he said, she said” merry-go-rounds. I thought you were claiming – or at least hinting – that I wanted Mind Control Immunity to be fairly universal, beyond T4s, and thus using a “straw man” argument to attack my an argument did not make. If this was not your intent, then no need to dwell on it further.

    Now to the substance of your argument:

    – Too many units have MCI. I would prefer MCI to be a significantly rarer trait among units and more exclusive like Willpower (basically MCI) was in Shadow Magic (And there was even an ability to remove Willpower).

    This is a value judgment on which I suspect we cannot find a common ground, however long we debate it. I differ mainly for two reasons. First, balance-wise, I think mind control-type of abilities are too common and too easily obtained (another value judgment) in this game to make resistance to it so rare. Second, realism/RPG-wise, my position is that hardened soldiers – and even more for magical creatures – should not be so easy to mind control, which is why I want to make T4s and more T3s immune.

    Again, I do not think we can come to any reasonable meeting of mind on this, as there is no common, objective metric to resolve this dispute.

    – All three angels have a soft version of MCI. It is their “Dedicated to ..” trait. Even if an Angel is mindcontrolled (or ghouled) the new owner still has to abide by the same alignment restrictions the old one had to or the angel will simply desert him.<br>
    If the evil Necromancer steals your Arch Angel, he has on average 5 rounds until the angel is gone. Seems perfectly fine by me. It means you have to take care of them to not lose them and so does the enemy. Far preferable to blanket immunity.<br>

    Your argument addresses only the strategic implications of the issue, not tactical. And given that I tend to focus a lot more on tactical combat balance than strategic balance, I tend to think this “soft version of MCI” is not much a consolation to the side that loses units to Mind Control-type of abilities. But I concede this is also an issue of personal play-style that affects me more than others.

    Another major point that I didn’t really stress in my earlier posts, since to do so would have opened up a larger can of worms: I want Strong Will, more so than Mind Control Immunity, on most T4 units. As some posters have noted, Mind Control Immunity does not insulate you from stuff like Fear effects – which is a bit strange, since they are similar to some degree. Further, generally-speaking, I think Spirit damage, from a realism/fantasy lore perspective, should be among the most widely-resisted damage – assuming that it attacks the mind, and hardened soldiers and fantastic creatures should have some defense against it. Finally, I think the proliferation of scary attack types that are Spirit-oriented (for instance, Invoke Death) makes my objection to the relative lack of Spirit resists in this game even more urgent.

    Of course, this means that Theocrats will be nerfed. But that can be addressed with compensating boosts, such as making more Theocrat damage Fire-oriented, for instance. I just think it is absurd, for example that – both balance-wise and realism/lore-wise – that an Orc Shock Trooper will make a hardened, elite warrior on a damn Manticore turn tail and run.

    #185068

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Mind control is a one-shot move and is easy to deal with. Just kill the squishy thing that mind controlled them, or pop your Break Control on them. Basically every hero gets a form of Break Control it seems, as do units like the Nightshade Fairy and the Tigran Mystic.

    Your opponent is going to look pretty silly spending their mind control on an angel, only for you to instantly break it again.

    As I wrote to Ferrus in my recent, lengthy reply: My issue is with Spirit damage in general.

    Also, not all things that can Mind Control your units will be so squishy in late-game.

    #185111

    Aennor
    Member

    What, they haven’t some sort of resistance to manipulation already? I can’t recall any other T4 so…

    #185128

    CSav10
    Member

    Should definatly have MC immunity in my opinion, taking control of tier 4 units is just a broken option in general. Especially when cythonic gaurdians and T4 evil spec unit( can’t for the love of god remember the name) are immune.

    #185141

    terrahero
    Member

    I like them without Mindcontrol immunity.

    It creates a more interesting dynamic. At this point you should have ways to protect your Angels when you summon them. Keep them with a hero with break control, use buffs to reduce the risk or make them immune or simply strategically protect them during battles where mindcontrol-capable units are present.

    For units with mindcontrol effects it creates an interesting choice. Risk the unit for a big prize? And if i get it, will i keep it?

    It’s not like you will be running into enemies with mindcontrollers 24/7. It’s a situational weakness.

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