Should Orcs get something comparable to Memories of Joy?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Should Orcs get something comparable to Memories of Joy?

This topic contains 14 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Jolly Joker 6 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #231124

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Halfling Reanimators have a special ability that makes sure Halfling GHOULS have a positive morale, so their special ability works which is a compensation for 20% Physical Weakness. (Brew Brothers’s Nourishing Meal also works on undead which is not true for other supports’s healing abilities.)

    Now, Orcs’s Victory rush got buffed up to 12 points of Regeneration per won battle, which is basically ompensation for the Orcs’s bad Resistance.
    Ghouls, though, have another -1 Res PLUS Spirit and Fire Weakness. On the plus side they can’t be influenced by mind stuff.

    So while Orc Ghouls lose their susceptibility to most mind effects and get Blight immunity, Fire and Spirit stuff will just kill them.

    It MAY sound lame, but for Orcs to be playable as Necro I would suggest something comparable to Halfling:

    Orcish Reanimators get an ability that lets them regenerate +6 Health after each battle. Memories of Victory Elation or some such…

    #231143

    Bob5
    Member

    Orc Reanimators already get Throw Curse, which is quite good for them in early game. Curse is very useful for Necro’s, it lowers enemy morale, it lowers their resistance (more Ghoul Curse), and also has some situational crowd-control utility. I think Orcs actually have one of the better Reanimators in the game, certainly better than Humans, Dwarves, or Tigrans

    #231144

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    We could change Victory rush to work on the undead I guess. Or just make it so it works on undead, but only less well (like heals 12 for living, 6 for undead).

    #231163

    Hatmage
    Member

    I’d give either reanimators or all orc priests, living and dead, a “hunger of the dead”/”devour foes” ability that heals undead, monsters, beasts and summoned creatures in their stack 2-3 hp, maintenance style, for winning battles.

    #231170

    ExNihil
    Member

    +1 to victory rush for undead, or maybe make it something vampiric, or give ’em minor devour corpse? or something such like?

    #231247

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    what do you mean with +1 Victory Rush? Orc Ghouls don’t have Victory Rush at all.

    I’ll try to get this a bit more straight.

    When Necro gets the Healer of the Dead tech (all Supports get Heal Undead), things doesn’t matter anymore, because at that point all problems of health and regeneration cease to exist. That, by the way, is even true if all Healing would be limited to once-per-combat use: Reanimators also get Lesser Reanimate with that tech, and at that point you also have the Vampire tech. Also, the mind control stuff is no problem anymore except Control Undead, but for that there is Break Control and so on.

    So what is left is a more pronounced Necro weakness – first and foremost your main Orc Necro is quite vulnerable, and that is especially true in Autocombat (orc Necro is more prone to go down). On the other hand, the Orc Necro hero still HAS Victory Rush.

    So I’m inclined to say, looking only at MANUAL, no, Orcish Ghouls don’t need anything extra.
    Looking at autocombat, things probably look a bit worse – but that’s pretty standard.

    Bottom line is; I’m inclined to answer my own question with no.

    That, however, is just a consequence of how good Healing really is…

    #231249

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    what do you mean with +1 Victory Rush? Orc Ghouls don’t have Victory Rush at all.

    He means he’s in favor of this:

    We could change Victory rush to work on the undead I guess. Or just make it so it works on undead, but only less well (like heals 12 for living, 6 for undead).

    Which I was thinking of, simply because it’s the easiest way to fix the issue. Attaching a victory rush type thing to Reanimators doesn’t feel like it would have as much effect since, as you say, by the time you get Reanimators, a lot of your heal issues become fixed. An extra 6hp healed per battle for all Orc Ghouls is a nice, small bonus, which I think will be enough to have an effect, but not so big as to feel overpowered.

    #231263

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    This would be great, if Heal Undead would be reduced to 15 points. 🙂 This would put more stress on the subtle differences of Ghouls, and less on the power of Necro heroes and Reanimators,
    Also Compare with the other thread.

    This is all being related with any form of healing/regenerating being in the center of it.

    Heal Undead reduced to 15 would be good insofar because Necro really has access to ANY amount of healing sooner or later, and with the ability on a cooldown 15 is enough.
    Repair Machine is probably fine.

    Hero Healing should be limited to once-per-battle (this will hurt PBEM and single, but not auto), because auto is straightforward, no delays, no webbing for gaining turns and so on, which means there won’t be MUCH of a problem here. If Healing was to be kept on cooldown the ability is obviously WAY too cheap, if these heroes are (correctly) in such demand).

    As a sidenote, what about Dracs then? Would they get also half Fast Healing for a +3 Regeneration? Might be feasible – Dragons can’t be ghouled, after all, so you might argue that Dracs are not 100% Ghould and their Dragon blood is just getting through a bit.

    #231329

    llfoso
    Member

    If your argument is based on the res hit, shouldn’t tigrans get something too? Although I guess the 40% spirit res is pretty nice…

    Slightly off topic, tigrans being harder to mind-control still doesn’t make sense to me.

    #231382

    Fenraellis
    Member

    So while Orc Ghouls lose their susceptibility to most mind effects and get Blight immunity, Fire and Spirit stuff will just kill them.

    Well, Embalmed is a thing, and actually makes Ghouls MORE fire protected than non-Ghouls… and all Ghouls have Spirit Weakness. -1 Res being an Orc(and Tigran) trait is just what it is.

    Realistically, immunity to all spirit effects except Spirit Breaking and Control Undead is actually pretty significant for Orcs. -1 Res is generally still only going to be +1 damage as with normal circumstances, with some breakpoint exceptions, when compared to other races.

    #231423

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Look, if you were right – don’t you think that +12 Victory Rush as a compensation for being one resistance point easier to mind-influence is a bit much? And War Cry?

    Plus, I would like to reduce Heal Undead. With Necro you are bound to have a lot of Support units anyway.

    #231539

    ExNihil
    Member

    I love the new victory rush, Orcs have never been so fun to play, please don’t touch this – I have always HATED Orcs, as one of the shittiest races in the game, now they are good for the first time.

    #231543

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    It won’t be touched. Instead the Ghouls may get some as well, so keep cool.

    #231638

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    In the end, I decided not to change Victory Rush for Orcs. The changes in the latest patch favour using Reanimation to get back dead units, rather than healing them before they get killed in the first place. Also, when gathering feedback, the general response I got was “VR healing ghouls is nice, but Orcs don’t really need it”.

    I’m also worried that fixing Victory Rush will lead to me having to add fixes to compensate for Draconian Fast Healing, Goblin Wetlands Foraging and the Blight Resistance of Goblins/Dwarves.

    #231674

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I agree.

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