Shouldn't "Lich Aura" be a Necromancer Hero Upgrade?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Shouldn't "Lich Aura" be a Necromancer Hero Upgrade?

This topic contains 20 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Gloweye 7 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 21 posts - 1 through 21 (of 21 total)
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  • #192846

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I ask this for the following reason:

    Unless I’m missing something the Empire Upgrade “Harbingers of Death” is the only way to ghoul living units (you may get from any number of sources), providing stack leaders with the “Lich Aura” which turns the living into undead.
    That is fine as long as you play as Necromancer CLASS (since you can research the Tech).

    However, what happens if you play any other class, employing a Necromancer hero? That doesn’t make a lot of sense currently, except when you happen to obtain an Archon Dwelling.
    However, with Lich Aura as Hero Upgrade (level 7 maybe?) this wouldn’t be a problem anymore, and Necromancers in the service of other Classes could bring a touch of decay into things…

    Or am I missing something here?

    #192856

    Stelgon
    Member

    There’s the Well of Souls that you can use to Ghoul units outside of Harbinger of Death’s Lich Aura.

    But I do think that Necromancer heroes in living armies do seem a little out of place in that their abilities don’t really synergize well with other classes abilities.

    #192859

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Right.
    And if Lich Aura would be considered too much of a thing, there might be something like “Lesser Lich Aura” ghouling ONE (random) living unit in Hero’s stack at the beginning of a new day.
    That could definitely be a lower-tier ability (3, maybe?).

    #192863

    Eomolch
    Member

    Hm, if Lich Aura was an hero upgrade I am pretty sure I would almost never make use of it as a non-necromancer. Essentially turning your units into ghouls as a non-necromancer would be a bad trade in most situations as it gives your units (including the hero himself) significant weaknesses including the inability to naturally regenerate. Sure, you may still want to do this against Goblins or Frostlings (or Necro itself) but I feel like they already have a considerable amount of bad match-ups (basically any Necro or Rogue) so adding another mean to make full stacks blight immune / cold resistant could make those races even less viable for some classes.

    Also a necro hero already has some tools to create his own personal undead zoo. He can have a cadaver pet and he can learn inflict ghoul curse if he really wants to fill his stack with ghouls (also, the mentioned well is an option).

    edit: Forgot to mention another disadvantage of auto-ghouling your units: If you ever want to change your stack-composition the units you’ll take out of the ghouled stack will be unviable for any other of your stacks since they can’t regenerate health (unless you control an archon dwelling, which is a very unreliable factor).

    #192871

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Hmm, with Dreads it’s the same thing – however, you can produce “Dread pets” in all of your towns; no one complains about the possibility to hire a Dread, equip them with machines you produce.

    Also, if there is a random opportunity – if a well of soulds HAPPENS to be available – to ghoul units for your Necromancer units, why not give them an abiliuty to do it reliably? You don’t HAVE to pick that hero upgrade after all.

    #192874

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Hmm, with Dreads it’s the same thing – however, you can produce “Dread pets” in all of your towns; no one complains about the possibility to hire a Dread, equip them with machines you produce.

    Also, if there is a random opportunity – if a well of soulds HAPPENS to be available – to ghoul units for your Necromancer units, why not give them an abiliuty to do it reliably? You don’t HAVE to pick that hero upgrade after all.

    They get Inflict Ghoul Curse later, the possibility already exists.

    Lich Aura would be stumbling too much into some of the Necromancer CLASS abilities.

    #192879

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    While I’m not convinced, I accept that there is something like a workaround…

    #192909

    Gloweye
    Member

    I must say I like the idea, though I can also see why it isn’t implemented. Also a thing to note is the sheer strenght of the Aura – 20% Spirit Protection +1 Def and +1 Resistance is easily the strongest party skill avaiable. I think it should cost 15 upgrade points at the very minimum, and require level 11 or 13 to be even remotely balanced.

    And that gives the issue that there are already so many good, expensive skills to choose from…
    Level 11:
    1. Greater Reanimate Dead 10 poitns
    2. Invoke Death 5 Points
    Level 13:
    3. Undying 8 points
    4. Necromantic Aura 8 points

    that’s already 31 = 6 level ups of upgrades that you generally all want(possible exception of necromantic aura).

    #192919

    I don’t see much use for it either. As a non-necro you generally want to take care of what own forces you ghoul and lich aura sabotages that, especially as your supports all have heal living.
    Even as a Necro I generally like certain units to stay alive and Lich Aura ghouling is a downside as soon as i got a well or two.

    And the other bonuses are way good for a hero upgrade. The combined bonuses accumulate to approximately 11 points alone.

    Also I do think that Lich Aura works better as a class aspect, like thoroughbred mounts and such do.

    #193080

    Unknown250
    Member

    I actually just experienced this, as apparently when a Necromancer surrenders to you their leader keeps their Lich Aura when they become your hero. It’s actually kind of annoying, because there’s no way to de-ghoul units, which means you’ve got to be very careful who you group with that hero, otherwise you’ll have all sorts of ghouls where you don’t want them (including, annoyingly enough, your leader).

    IMHO them having Ghoul Curse is enough. They can already make their own army of Ghouls.

    #193088

    Gloweye
    Member

    (including, annoyingly enough, your leader).

    That sounds annoying indeed…

    I think that might qualify as an unintended side effect, which maybe should be removed.

    #193137

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Just Control Undead a Death Bringer, and go from there…

    On a related note, Death Bringers, like other T3 Unit-Acquisition units, should really have Mind Control Immunity. A level 3 Necromancer Leader/Hero should not be able to go into a Tomb before turn 10 and Control Undead(Spirit Weakness!) a Death Bringer to greatly amplify their army forces that early in the game through Ghoul Curse(Inflict Despair on the Leader on level 2 helps the odds immensely as well).

    #193141

    Weltenreiter
    Member

    Sounds decent. If you have a necromancer leader, you don’t have to learn it, but it gives the option to necro heroes under different leaders – abilities being more or less obsolete with or without class infrastructure is not unprecedented anyway.

    In any case, necro’s almost complete lack of notable leader skills could use some polishing up, lich aura seems the logical thing to put there.

    #193146

    llfoso
    Member

    Necromancer heroes do tend to wind up with cadavers hanging around from the start. That’s enough for me.
    Personally I had imagined the necromancer recruiting living units and recovering dead ones from battles and summons. I was surprised its 100% undead.

    #193169

    Gloweye
    Member

    JOn a related note, Death Bringers, like other T3 Unit-Acquisition units, should really have Mind Control Immunity. A level 3 Necromancer Leader/Hero should not be able to go into a Tomb before turn 10 and Control Undead(Spirit Weakness!) a Death Bringer to greatly amplify their army forces that early in the game through Ghoul Curse(Inflict Despair on the Leader on level 2 helps the odds immensely as well).

    Agreed. They should get it.

    #193217

    Triscopic
    Member

    Personally I had imagined the necromancer recruiting living units and recovering dead ones from battles and summons. I was surprised its 100% undead.

    Totally agree.

    On topic, I don’t see why this ability shouldn’t be an option. Well balanced options that allow people to play their way are what make games like AoW3 so much fun.

    #193224

    Agreed. They should get it.

    I disagree. The early game with the Necro is weak enough even with a lucky Deathbringer conversion (which is not a sure thing even with the spirit weakness).
    Removing even that chance will need a heavy restructuring of the Necro and I’m not sure that can be done outside a greater patch.
    Simply slapping MCI on Death Bringers will just make the Necro class a class that’ll change every patch for the foreseeable future in a bid to make it work right.

    #193228

    Gloweye
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Gloweye wrote:</div>
    Agreed. They should get it.

    I disagree. The early game with the Necro is weak enough even with a lucky Deathbringer conversion (which is not a sure thing even with the spirit weakness).<br>
    Removing even that chance will need a heavy restructuring of the Necro and I’m not sure that can be done outside a greater patch.<br>
    Simply slapping MCI on Death Bringers will just make the Necro class a class that’ll change every patch for the foreseeable future in a bid to make it work right.

    Well, you don’t get it in every game, so you can hardly say that the Necro is balanced around this. I just started a new game with (Halfling) Necro, and I got Ghoul Curse on my leader before even seeing the first Death Bringer – which was in a Castle of the Lich king that I managed to clear at turn 35, despite having only T1/T2 units, against 2 Reapers+ company.

    Second, You shouldn’t need to successfully convert a single type of unit to be able to compete.

    Third, as Fen said, all T3 conversion units(or: All conversion units except Bard) got Mind Control Immunity, and I think it fits with them. They’re not run of the mill undead, they’re high class units, and a T3 that’s only 1 tech below your class T4.

    So maybe not out of balance, but for consistency’s sake. And if this really is such a nerf to the Necro, there’s loads of things to compensate – like changing the Ghoul Curse hero upgrade to 2 levels earlier(7 instead of 9), or maybe just helping out on their crap ecomony and change the undead city production bonus to 20%, which will help you build the units you can’t convert.

    #193253

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    That line of thought makes no sense. Changing economy or giving an upgrade earlier will work always and with all settings, while getting control over a T3 unit in a tomb by a specific turn or not depends on
    Map settings
    Picking a specific hero upgrade
    Finding a Tomb
    Getting a favorable outcome for a Resistance check.

    The trouble with Control Undead is – there are not so many opportunities as you get with Convert or Seduce (because there are much more living units than undead.

    I don’t see even the slightest problem with this – there will always be “opportunity stunts” to pull, and this one isn’t that stunning.

    #193287

    thabob79
    Member

    Without lich aura, the necromancer himself(or herself) is living, unable to heal with heal undead and affected by banshee shout. Maybe an option that turn it undead without lich aura (maybe a ghoul or little better) should be nice. With 2 kind of undead spawner (and control undead), ghoul curse, greater reanimation (work on dead undead enemy, even bone dragon, verified before 1.55) and raise corpse, necromancers heroes serving a non-necromancer have more than enough way to gain troops without lich aura. Controling death bringer (and reanimators too, even if less powerful) is good but (IMHO) not broken. Necromancers hero with undead stack are good but require that you play them if you want to keep them healthy.

    #193288

    Gloweye
    Member

    greater reanimation (work on dead undead enemy, even bone dragon, verified before 1.55)

    For the record, this is intended. Greater Reanimate Undead doesn’t care about a lot of things, including previous owners and Mind Control Immunity.

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