Spreadsheet: Items, Forge and Heroes (EL 1.5)

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Spreadsheet: Items, Forge and Heroes (EL 1.5)

This topic contains 11 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  SiaFu 4 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #185268

    SiaFu
    Member

    Spoiler warning for those who wish to discover this for themselves.

    Here’s an updated version of my previous XLS spreadsheet I’d based on Mezmorki’s Tables of Wonder, information on the Wiki and my own play of AoW3.
    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/tables-of-wonder/
    The spreadsheet contains no macros or external references.
    It’s divided into several sheets, based on heavily modified Tables of Wonders, and Decoy’s Items table. Still a work in progress:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GrVqc86QFjv4ZcLZ_hIJNinHnzSBn2L54jDl5OvbtLw/edit?pli=1#gid=1303863383
    I have created a column in each sheet, named DLC, so you can filter the changes between
    0: vanilla AoW3, 1:(GR) Golden Realms 1.4 to 2:(EL) Eternal Lords, Build 15814 [150413].

    ITM: All the items you can loot, excluding obvious campaign quest items. New EL items (except mounts) placed at the bottom of the table.
    FRG: All the Item forge abilities and costs. Where possible used by ITM to gauge item worth using linked formulas to allow tweaks and changes in crafting prices to update in the item list.
    Contains a handy section for determining city production based on size, resources, enchants and happiness to calculate turns needed for crafting and production waste.
    Hero: All the heroes, with any Eternal Lords starting individual abilities I could identify.
    Contains a handy xp/level table for units and heroes. I didn’t check all the starting hero spells as the initial selection has little variance within hero class (except some heroes that get strong starting abilities and just 1-2 spells).
    TS: Treasure Sites, i.e. Structures, Resources and pickups, taken from Ages of Wonder and updated mostly from GR 1.4 experience. EL structures from synthetic custom map runs. My log of combat enchantments is now obsolete as in EL you can see them before you enter combat.
    I’ve only listed the general range of rewards from personal experience.
    Decoy assembled more detailed drop tables according to defender sets (as named in the editor) in his Structures and rewards spreadsheet:
    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/structures-and-rewards-spreadsheet-aow3/
    Trn: Climate/Terrain affinity by race and some terraforming tips. I’ve also determined the amount of city happiness from climate/terrain per domain radius and hex by experimenting in-game.

    Methodology:
    I’ve based this on spreadsheet data from the Tables of Wonders (which are still at 1.4), taken from the link above and reformatted it for better sortability using filters, color-coded according to my subjective preference (for offline play).
    Then I got some missing data from the Wiki and various forum posts – and filled out the rest by making custom test maps in the editor (for Eternal Lords) or empyrically from my playthroughs in Golden Realms.
    Last, but not least, item drop rates were tested in Eternal Lords 1.5 using stacks of Phoenixes and rows of Ziggurats, Lost cities, Lich King Castles and Halls of the Forefathers etc. to gauge real in-game frequency (see Quality vs Rarity).
    EL introduced many low-tier useful items so the pre-determined loot (no savescumming) isn’t half bad. I’ve even got the Obsidian armor a couple of times. Although duplicates are still a thing, I don’t think we’ll have anything like the Unicorn mounts issue.

    I have checked all the available heroes in Eternal Lords using specially crafted custom maps (by giving them to my player at the start – if you try this, don’t put more than 30 heroes on the map as it causes the game to instakill some as it can’t allocate bonus abilities, according to the weird exceptions in the debugger).
    I now see that the Heroes Wiki page was updated with similar information (but as of the time of this post, is still missing 13 heroes, starting with Barshar the Sultan). I haven’t cross-referenced it fully to check if abilites vary on game start, and probably won’t anytime soon.
    Feel free update the page if you have a Wikia account:
    http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Heroes

    FORGE:
    The pre-determined loot in EL shifts the game more towards strategy and less on ARPG-style looting (and gaming the random seed by savescumming), increasing the importance proper Arcane Forge use.
    I’ve checked the forge abilities in-game. The point and gold/mana costs seem the same as in Golden Realms 1.4 upon cursory comparison, so I’ve included the new abilities and marked Regrowth etc. as no longer available.
    Poison spit seems weird as it only costs 4 points on a useable item, and there are no 1-point use abilities.

    ITEMS:
    Lootable Item Quality vs Rarity:
    Much as the conflation in nomenclature with strategic turns and combat rounds (which I’ve tried to avoid in my tables, denoting them as t for strategic and r for combat), the Quality (Tier, from Common to Mythical) of items and Rarity (Common to Very Rare) are somewhat debatable classifications, especially on the Wiki page which conflates them into the one I call Quality.
    In-game you only see the Quality rating, and it pertains to the elegibility of items as loot from specific sites, i.e. you can’t expect a Mythical item from a Brigand camp. In the editor, you can filter items according to rarity, i.e. how often it will come up as loot, statistically (out of 100 identical loot sites, Very Rare will drop less often than Common).
    Loot tables allow a small chance for exceptional items to drop, so you can occasionally get a Mythical item from a Crystal tree, as opposed to the usual Epics.
    It all seemed clear-cut to me until Eternal lords, as ALL the Eternal lords items have been classed as having Common rarity in the editor. This however, doesn’t seem to make them drop significantly more often than items from earlier expansions, which brings in question the accuracy of Rarity as indicator of statistical drop chance.

    I haven’t linked all the new items and their ability forge costs yet, but have added notes and comments on the items I’ve encountered.

    Item sale price (1.5/Eternal Lords only):
    Generally the prices are according to quality (Common/Strong/Epic/Legendary/Mythical), forged items go for as low as 18g 5p while Mythical items go for 120g 30m, which is a pittance in most cases.
    However, it’s quite handy in the campaign as you can only bring as many items as your heroes’ inventories allow and selling items can get you a nice starting cash bonus early on in a subsequent mission.

    Changes to old items:
    Old items that I have found different in Eternal Lords have a green background in the Slot column, and a red one for their previous iteration. The list is nowhere near complete as they haven’t been documented in the patch notes and I haven’t yet tried them all out.
    For instance, The vaunted Elixir of Ghostly Being is now only a higher-tier copy of the Silver Aegis Ring (just 40% physical) and the Keeper Longbow is no longer the ultimate physical range damage dealer as it now provides 2 abilities with phys or shock/phys damage.
    With the 1/battle nerf to Seduce and Befriend Animal and all the new abilities relying on immobilizing enemies, I wish they’d put Dominate on Karissa’s Perfume and Greater Webbing Touch on Jenica’s Spider cane to reflect the difference in Tier/Quality with the Siren’s Musical Box and Constricting Net of the Human Spider.
    With so many abilities to choose from, it seems a pity to have more than one functionally identical item.

    Bugs in my EL version:
    The accessory: Scepter of the Conqueror doesn’t display its name in the in-game description pop-up, and the new Armor of Devine Regeneration is probably a typo of Divine.

    HEROES:
    Heroes now have some individual starting abilities, some even not obtainable by hero upgrades from any class (Such as Ambor’s Holy Relic, a new Holy Shrine regeneration ability). They greatly vary in usefulness (from Life stealing to +1 vision), two Orcs now have Mind Control Immunity, and some only get a starting item (Mount/Weapon).
    I haven’t yet compared HP/DEF/RES increases where they were not obvious so the list is a work in progress, and there’s conjecture on the Wiki that some abilities could be random skill picks, which I haven’t managed to verify.
    Several heroes also have no noticeable starting abilities (marked them orange), so take the list as an orientational guide.

    Anyway, there seems to be a patch in the works so all data is subject to change anyway.
    In the meantime feel free to post corrections, feedback, comments etc.
    My own comments are already in the spreadsheet.

    #185345

    Hunter
    Member

    Great work. Very interesting reading.

    #185348

    esvath
    Member

    This is marvelous! Thank you!

    #185378

    Dr_K
    Member

    Feel free update the page if you have a Wikia account:
    http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Heroes

    Even if you don’t have an account, you can edit anonymously 🙂

    Much as the conflation in nomenclature with strategic turns and combat rounds (which I’ve tried to avoid in my tables, denoting them as t for strategic and r for combat), the Quality (Tier, from Common to Mythical) of items and Rarity (Common to Very Rare) are somewhat debatable classifications, especially on the Wiki page which conflates them into the one I call Quality.

    I don’t remember what thread it was (probably Decoy’s stats table thread), but I one of the devs stated that the Rarity of the items was no longer being used (as of that thread) in game. This is why that column was removed from the wiki, if you look back in the history far enough you can find it.

    I don’t know if this has changed and rarity now plays a role with respect to some mechanic, but since all of the new items have Common rarity, I believe it still has no bearing on anything.

    Also, fantastic work with the spreadsheet.

    #185886

    SiaFu
    Member

    Thanks for the comments.

    Dr_K, I have found the thread where Narvek confirms that rarity is indeed obsolete. Unfortunately, it is the only sorting option in the editor you can understand my mistake.
    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/item-base-value-what-does-it-mean/
    The thread also contains some interesting info on the mechanics of structure defender setup and rewards. The cap for taking gold instead of rewards still exists, and can sometimes be less than the gold bundled with the item (according to a bug report in the Support forum).
    The mana value has changed to 1mp=1gp for evaulation purposes as you can’t sell mana to AIs for 2x gold anymore. As there is no knowledge exchange, I suppose it’s still valued at 1kp=5gp.

    Regarding the Wiki, part of the reason for starting this table was that I don’t like the layout they use. It involves too much mouseovers and clicking and has no sorting tables (which I’ve seen in some Wiki but can’t find the code). The Item page has been under construction for months. If they still miss info when I finish my table, I’ll see what I can do.

    I was hoping that this thread could spark a discussion on merits of individual items and maybe inspire some changes, until we can mod them ourselves, if any of you have insights into the usefulness of some items or comments on how I’ve re-classed them in the spreadsheet, feel free to share.
    I’ll be working on forge costs etc. in the meantime.

    #185888

    thabob79
    Member

    Per Notchson, Dreadnought – Tunneling

    LOL

    Btw congrat on your work!

    #185965

    Dr_K
    Member

    Regarding the Wiki, part of the reason for starting this table was that I don’t like the layout they use. It involves too much mouseovers and clicking and has no sorting tables (which I’ve seen in some Wiki but can’t find the code). The Item page has been under construction for months. If they still miss info when I finish my table, I’ll see what I can do.

    Tables on the wiki tend to look really bad or are extremely inconvenient when they contain a lot of information that involves more than numbers. Thus, we decided to avoid them for large data sets, and it would have been redundant to remake a worse table than the spreadsheets that had already been made. I also added a link to this thread & spreadsheet from the wiki.

    The item tables are a sad relic of when there were multiple wikis and no one’s gotten around to revamping them yet. It’s on my to-do list though. Most of the wiki’s been under construction forever since it was more or less a 2 man show for most of its existence.

    As for problems with items, I always felt that the items that essentially give you another base attack were boring and could use a shake up. Items like Rod of Lightning Charge, Stick of the Frost Witch. Although some of them give abilities that are inaccessible from the class starting item, they just seem a bit too bland for Legendary drops.

    #185976

    SiaFu
    Member

    Tables on the wiki tend to look really bad or are extremely inconvenient…

    So it was a performance issue, noted.
    By no means did I intend to belittle the great work done on the Wiki (especially from such a small number of contributors). It’s the best general repository of AoW3 knowledge I’ve found, especially for novices – with all the hotlinks to descriptions. I’ve used it a lot. It’s format is just not handy for my preferences and I’m more comfortable with text formulas than WikiCode, that’s all.

    I could make de-matted PNGs with transparency out of item icons from the editor if you haven’t got them yet.

    Items like Rod of Lightning Charge, Stick of the Frost Witch. Although some of them give abilities that are inaccessible from the class starting item, they just seem a bit too bland for Legendary drops.

    Exactly, that’s why I’ve italicized their names and marked their Quality text color to green Legendary, as the other similar “shoot bolts” items are classed as Common.
    Just a +1 ranged str. would have made them much better since you can’t achieve that in the forge, regardless of elemental type. Sadly, if the Keeper Longbow change is any indication – that won’t happen.
    OTOH, there are quite a few items that are just too good for their class, so it’s not all that bad, e.g.: Mundane Traveler’s Cloak of Divine Joy which is classed as Strong but is excellent vs elemental attacks, since DEF is much easier to raise than RES.

    Now that rerolling rng seeds for items is no longer possible, it would be nice to share strategies on how to better use the items you were dealt. I’ve bolded the items I find very useful within their quality/rarity category, but that was all before the expansion. Holy champ was meh, but vs Necro leaders it’s a rare offensive Torso item which is probably why in EL you have it on the only Torso common: Angelic Robes.
    Then again, some items are simply great, for instance…

    [SPOILER WARNING]

    …in the Elven Lords campaign I got a Tempest Staff from the first Ziggurat.
    The next mission was a cakewalk as I could just park Sundren outside the AI’s city walls, have Reskar occasionally heal her and Lightning Storm the stuffing out of the defenders. The AI concluded that my flying mount heroes couldn’t be engaged by 28move T1s and didn’t sally out.
    Next time it wasn’t so naive, but all I had to do was bring a couple of reinforcements and pick the defenders off as they rushed out the gates.
    And I got the central three Dwarven cities within a couple of turns, making their Leader turtle in his capital with his brown pants on. Until I rallied all the swamp gobbos to the front and wracked his puny trebuchet defenses – he didn’t even tech up to Golems.

    [END SPOILER WARNING]

    Flying + healing + 9hex no-range-penalty AoE attack on a projectile resistant Rogue = siege win

    And the White Pouch is one of the most useful useable items in the game. I usually forge a knock-off per hero as immobilize + healing 1/3r helps you get your army to the next battle almost unscathed.

    Per Notchson, Dreadnought – Tunneling
    LOL

    Can you believe I got him as a hero on my first random map? I gave him a staff of Domination and he led the colonization of a different continent and underground (from my main empire). Don’t let his pilgrim hat fool you, he’s a tanky sureshot with the musket, so by the time I’d built my first Juggernaut, only one of the three AI was left.

    There are many easter-egg names in the Hero list; some past heroes like Karzen, homages like Jetta Lee Swiftkick, Dhorraine the Explorer and even Narvek is apparently a Necromancer in his free time on Athla.

    #187444

    decoy
    Member

    Nice work SaiFu glad to see more people making more guides like this. You should ask Narvek to add your spreadsheet to the sticky

    #194443

    SiaFu
    Member

    Thanks, decoy, yours and Mezmorki’s tables were an immense asset in making this.
    As for the sticky, maybe when it’s completed. I’d started a Units sheet, but with Tibbles’ database online I don’t think there’s much call for it anymore.

    Attached (ZIPped) is the updated spreadsheet reflecting Eternal Lords 1.555:

    ITM: Now all items are sorted by slot, quality then alphabetically (latest iteration first). Items that were changed between DLCs and patches have coloured background in the slot column, so you can compare the previous iteration.
    I have added the resists for all Inflict passives I could find in the Tome of Wonders at the bottom of the sheet for faster reference.

    FRG: Prices, values and comments updated. I have also found my older version of the spreadsheet so abilities that were introduced in Golden Realms are marked as such (with a yellow bacgkground “1” in the DLC column)
    NEW: Improved City production Calculator now supports racial governance bonuses for production.
    Also, the dwarven forge bonus can be used when calculating item forge costs using the “B” column to select abilities. The total reflects the discount, while the individual abilities always show their original cost.

    NEWBLD: A list of all city/dwelling upgrades/buildings, sorted thematically. Also supports calculating turns needed according to production. I’ve assigned tiers to buildings so you can follow the requirements sequence (IV being the Grand/Palace of the Perished), with comments where there are more prerequisites (like with Altar of the Great Mother in the Naga dwelling)
    Added a short list of Builder functions.
    Includes the improved City Production Calculator (just a copy/paste).

    NEWRcG: Lists all Racial Governance bonuses, sorted by Race and level (alternating Military/Economic).

    Heroes: added columns to evaluate starting skills according to available hero upgrades and forge cost (if applicable). Work in progress if there’s interest in it.

    TS: Updated existing info such as Shrine enchantments etc.
    NEW: Cosmic events list with descriptions, and whether I could get them by spamming Boxes of Cataclysms in the editor (can’t say for sure others can’t appear, but in that case it’s an infinitesimal chance).

    And, again, no macros or VB, everything is done with good ol’ spreadsheet functions and custom filters, so it may possibly work in Open or Libre Office (haven’t tested it, though).

    #202691

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    Wow that’s an amazing resource, nice 🙂

    #204296

    SiaFu
    Member

    Thanks, Narvek, I’m still updating it as I play. The next version is planned after the current beta patch comes to GOG. I’ve seen some new item changes in the changelog, any hints on future plans regarding items/forging?

    I’ve found that reducing cooldowns by having multiple sources for the same ability no longer works, so if anybody finds any other mistakes, feel free to comment.

    In v17 I’ve already corrected the wrong info for Hearts from the old v15 version (the morale and population columns were switched).

    Some corrections concerning the pre-1.5 game (due my next upload):
    – the +1 physical ranged damage from the Adventurer’s sling, Halfling’s party kit etc worked only on existing physical damage channels, which is why I’d missed it first time around.
    – the Amulet of the Ocean Soul always had swimming, even though it wasn’t listed in its abilities.

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