Starting forces balance

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Balance Starting forces balance

This topic contains 13 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Gyor 6 years, 8 months ago.

Viewing 14 posts - 1 through 14 (of 14 total)
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  • #169344

    n0rf
    Member

    As everyone knows starting stack vary by random. There may be 1 horseman and 1 priest or 3 horsemen or even 1 racial t3 unit and horseman.
    I even don’t say that some races overall costs (and quality) of equal units may be much lower for one race than other. It is huge difference between goblin’s beetle and orc’s shocktrooper to have as a starting t3 unit.

    I see there some problems.
    1) Sometimes one of players have unfair advantage just because he has t3 unit from the beginning and he can level up it to elite in 15-20 turn. It’s a time when other player probably even don’t start producing of his t3 units (and now he can’t buy them in inns). And believe me you can do nothing against that nasty elite shocktrooper on 20th turn.
    2) Some race are very vulnarable to others rush on small maps. Goblins don’t have any chance to win a battle against orcs or dwarves with their starting pack even if both players would have a t3 units from the start. Only way to survive a little more is sitting in their capital.
    3) Some races desperatly need priest at start. It is only source to heal for humans and dwarves. And if their heroes don’t have heal they would be extremly slowed in the begining of the game.

    There are my suggestions for starting stacks^
    First of all no more t3 units at all (their are imbalanced at the start of the game).
    Second, there are must be at least one priest at starting army.
    Third, starting armies of each player must be as equal as it posible. There must be equal number of t1 and t2 units.
    Fourth, I think there maybe a good idea to setup different variety of starting forces for each race. For example more archers and less horsmen for elves, no archers for orcs. Maybe dwarves and goblins should have different number of starting units: one prospector less for dwarves and one more untouchable for goblins for example.

    PS: Btw I’m very glad of inn’s nerf so it doesn’t affect early game so much. Nerfs of summons also are good for this side of gameplay. Last one is balancing of starting forces

    #169367

    jb
    Member

    1) I’d be ok with no T3 starting units.
    2) Not against starting with a priest, but it doesn’t support your argument since 4/7 races don’t have healing priests.
    3 & 4) No strong opinion either way.

    #169524

    n0rf
    Member

    About having a priest. I meant that it must be for some races. If orcs don’t have it, it is ok.
    Actually I wanted that my suggestion with balancing starting forces per race would be approved, but I don’t really believe in it (it may take too much time for gamedesigners). But if it won’t be approved, imo, one guaranteed priest is much better option than situation when humans or hobbits don’t have one.

    #169540

    Motasa
    Member

    It always irked me a bit when I would start with two T3 units (happened occasionally in 1.4, that is – starting units at medium). It makes steam rolling the map and treasure sites way too easy in the early game. And since there’s no mention of this in the patch notes, I support you’re plea for more similar and fairer starting armies for the different races. Now it’s always a gamble if you start with a strong or mediocre stack of units.

    #169636

    Sunicle
    Member

    There are so many variables.

    Finding resources can give you a shrine or a wooden wall.
    From a brigand hut you can gain a tier I unit or a tier II unit.
    Your first hero can come with Total Awareness, a Gold Wyvern mount, or night vision on a map without caverns.
    You can have a nice area around you with some nice towns, or be stuck on a peninsula with little space.
    Your first cartographer’s tent can immediately reveal the throne city of your opponent, which is huge in multiplayer.

    With a medium starting army every player has an equal chance to get lucky with the units. For flavour there is some randomness. Nothing would be easier for the developers to give you exactly the same units each time you start a game. Creating random pools is more work, but avoids predictability.

    #169704

    n0rf
    Member

    With a medium starting army every player has an equal chance to get lucky with the units.

    Of course luck should have some impact on gameplay. But not too much. It’s a tbs not a game of dice.
    I don’t object to random starting forces, all I want to is fair starting forces in every game for every player. And current random alghorithm has too much dispersion to provide these fair conditions.

    There are so many variables.
    Finding resources can give you a shrine or a wooden wall.
    From a brigand hut you can gain a tier I unit or a tier II unit.
    Your first hero can come with Total Awareness, a Gold Wyvern mount, or night vision on a map without caverns.
    You can have a nice area around you with some nice towns, or be stuck on a peninsula with little space.
    Your first cartographer’s tent can immediately reveal the throne city of your opponent, which is huge in multiplayer.

    I agree with you that there are some other problems with random. First of all starting skills and building by founeded resources (and I’ll try to decribe my thoughts in another topic). But problem with t3 unit in starting forces can ruin game much more.

    #169740

    kugi
    Member

    Hi,

    There are my suggestions for starting stacks^
    First of all no more t3 units at all (their are imbalanced at the start of the game).
    Second, there are must be at least one priest at starting army.
    Third, starting armies of each player must be as equal as it posible. There must be equal number of t1 and t2 units.

    someone got t3 unit are imbalanced at the start of the game, totally agree, devs should remove them from the “startingpool”
    somekind of race/class based theme should welcome (as the specialisation grants you a starting skill/spell)

    each player (and AI) would start with
    1 T1 racial unit
    +1 T1 class unit
    +2 T1 or +1 T2 racial-class unit (which fits to the choiced race+class theme)
    +x T1 based on the difficulty setting
    +y T2 based on the difficulty setting

    example 1: human theocrat;
    1 Human Civic Guard or 1 Human Longswordsman or 1 Human Archer or 1 Human Halbedier (random)

    +1 Cherub or +1 Marthyr (random)

    +1 Human Priest (it fits well to the humantheocrat theme) (fixed)

    +x T1 random unit (Civic Guard, Longswordsman, Archer, Halbedier, Cherub, Marthyr) based on the difficulty setting
    +y T2 random unit (Priest, Calvary, Crusader) based on the difficulty setting

    example 2: dwarf dreadnought;
    1 Dwarf Prospector or 1 Dwarf Axeman or 1 Dwarf Crossbowman or 1 Dwarf Deepguard (random)

    +1 Spy Drone or +1 Engineer (random)

    +2 Engineer (it fits well to the dwarfdreadnought theme) (fixed)

    +x T1 random unit (Prospector, Axeman, Crossbowman, Deepguard, Spy Drone, Engineer) based on the difficulty setting
    +y T2 random unit (Forge Priest, Boar Rider, Musketeer, Golem <T2 Golem; Beta>) based on the difficulty setting

    example 3: goblin dreadnought;
    1 Goblin Untouchable or 1 Goblin Marauder or 1 Goblin Swarm Darter or 1 Goblin Skewer (random)

    +1 Spy Drone or +1 Engineer (random)

    +1 Musketeer (it fits well to the goblindreadnought theme) (fixed)

    +x T1 random unit (Prospector, Axeman, Crossbowman, Deepguard, Spy Drone, Engineer) based on the difficulty setting
    +y T2 random unit (Blight Doctor, Warg Rider, Musketeer, Golem <T2 Golem; Beta>) based on the difficulty setting

    #169759

    n0rf
    Member

    I’m happy to see many people who agree that T3 unit at start is a bad idea.
    kugi, it’s a good idea to have class units at starting pack, but I see some weak spots. At first scout unit is much more valuable at start of the game. So I think if we talk about class unit in starting stack ut must be always a scout or always a nonflying usual nonflying unit (btw sorcerer doesn’t have one).

    +2 T1 or +1 T2 racial-class unit (which fits to the choiced race+class theme)

    I also think it’s not a best idea, cause t2 unit at start is better than 2 t1 units. It is because more expensive units are less likely to die in autobattle, so they can be leveled up easier.

    I also think class T2 units are not so good idea. Just because they usually are much stronger than race units (golem is much stronger than warg rider in your example). And they usually can’t be getting in early game.

    #171212

    kugi
    Member

    …, it’s a good idea to have class units at starting pack, but I see some weak spots. … So I think if we talk about class unit in starting stack ut must be always a scout or a

    I also think it’s not a best idea, cause t2 unit at start is better than 2 t1 units. It is because more expensive units are less likely to die in autobattle, so they can be leveled up easier.

    I also think class T2 units are not so good idea. Just because they usually are much stronger than race units (golem is much stronger than warg rider in your example). And they usually can’t be getting in early game.

    Scouts.. yes I think You are right, and class T2 units are OP vs racial T2 i see the point of that, I suggesed that to add some coolness to the starting stacks, rather than balance reasons, but anyway I think class units at starting pack would be FUN, even if that is just a t1 unit (or two of them 😉 ).

    #171367

    Sond
    Member

    I agree with the idea behind the OP’s post. I would like to see more balance and no T3 in starting armies. How it is achieved, I don’t care, but the OP and others in the thread does provide some good ideas.

    All I know is that getting two T3 Gryphon Riders as Elves makes the early game trivial and it seems to happen reguarly. I started (and did not finish) 3 games this weekend and got 2 Gryphons in both games I did with Strong starting armies.

    #171398

    Fenraellis
    Member

    All I know is that getting two T3 Gryphon Riders as Elves makes the early game trivial and it seems to happen reguarly. I started (and did not finish) 3 games this weekend and got 2 Gryphons in both games I did with Strong starting armies.

    That’s not even remotely unusual, though. Strong starting army setting will give you between two to three racial T3s.

    #171424

    Gyor
    Member

    On strong, I once started with two Succubi, it was single player, but I loved it. Less important to me now with bound soul succubi.

    #171429

    Fenraellis
    Member

    On strong, I once started with two Succubi, it was single player, but I loved it. Less important to me now with bound soul succubi.

    That would have to have been the ‘Battle’ army setting. You can’t start with class units without it.

    #172669

    Gyor
    Member

    oops your right, still it was awesome, it was from before Golden Realms and it was the first time I got Succubi to Gold Medal, fun.

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