Starting units

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Starting units

This topic contains 20 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  Dementophobic 6 years, 12 months ago.

Viewing 21 posts - 1 through 21 (of 21 total)
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  • #202299

    AbednegoJC
    Member

    Issue:
    Starting units are too random. Its a big difference if you get firstborn or some xbows.

    Solution:
    I would prefer some system where you could “buy” starting army, depending on your strategy you wanna play. Also t3 should be almost impossible to buy (like you can buy one t3 + 2 irregulars for standard races, only t3 for dwarf and t3 + some units for goblin)

    pros:
    Some specs could give something special, like explorer +1 free irregular, expander would give you option to buy builder in starting army, partisan +x “gold” or “buy points”

    cons:
    Extra work for developers. But better balance and play experience?

    #202301

    Capirex
    Member

    Interesting proposal, altrough to some extent i like some degree of randomness in SP and the way you have to adapt to it, i can understand this can be a problem in MP.

    I also agree that starting with a T3 seems often too much and i should have some downside.

    #202322

    AbednegoJC
    Member

    Well, it could be option in start setup.. like number of heroes, or empire quests… “choose your army”.
    Also I think it would be not so hard to code.

    #202327

    CSav10
    Member

    I wouldn’t mind this at all actually. Maybe have a default amount of starting gold for initial units, seperate to that recieved in game. I can definately understand why you want this as an MP mode player ;P. But I think a starting option would be a good idea so people can choose.

    #202358

    ephafn
    Member

    I personally tend to reload a lot in SP to try to get decent starting units.

    While I wouldn’t like a system where you could choose your starting units (too clunky), I would be very happy if the current worse case scenarios were removed. For instance, in the standard start, you always start with 5 random units + 1 cavalry. If those 5 units contains 1 tier 3, good for you. If they only contains infantry and irregular, bad for you. The game should try very hard to make sure that the total gold (+mana) value of your starting units should be as constant as possible. The main way to do it as I see it would be to make the number of random units variable. So if you get a tier 3, you may only get 3 or 4 random units. If you only get infantry + irregular, you may end up with 10 of them to compensate.

    #202359

    That would be fun. BBB and I were talking a while ago about something like that as a way to let people have powerful units early game in a balanced fashion (I was more interested in the idea of a dwelling start, but that is tangential).

    You could try to leverage bless or stone skin to get a gold t-3 early, or something.

    #202372

    AbednegoJC
    Member

    Well, if you get starting army 11 t3 and one irregular + 2 heroes, they cant creep pretty much anything, you need to wait for army… or you have to choose creeps very carefully (Im talking about fact that “buyin” should be linear, like price in game,… it talk in advantage for t3 a lot. If infantry cost lets say 60, than t3 should cost at least 200, rather 240.)

    #202414

    That would be fun. BBB and I were talking a while ago about something like that as a way to let people have powerful units early game in a balanced fashion (I was more interested in the idea of a dwelling start, but that is tangential).

    You could try to leverage bless or stone skin to get a gold t-3 early, or something.

    Indeed. Many good ideas came out of that thread. Circle we are in. It’ll probably also be suggested in another 6 months.

    #202434

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    I sometimes do something like this with my friends. You start with “battle” starting units but then are only allowed to keep, say, 32GPT upkeep worth of troops. Makes for interesting choices. You CAN take a T3s but then your army will be very small making those early battles a challenge. Depending on the race and class this can really shake up the game quite a bit.

    There are some choices that are vastly superior to others. Like a necro can start with 2 death bringers this way which makes them insanely powerful off the start. We just have house rules to get around these issues.

    So it’s not perfectly balanced but it is still very fun so I would highly support such an option.

    #202505

    nevodark
    Member

    in MP the difference between starting with 1 T2 support and 4 irregulars vs 1-2 T3s and a few T2s is so crazy.

    Ive had games where i spawn in as dwarf with x2 firstborns and got them to gold / silver medal in a few turns whilst rushing towards an enemy throne. They then proceed to smash his crap T1 starting army into tiny bits.

    Whilst the randomness can keep it a bit interesting it does suck to play high elf and get x3/4 pikemen for your starting army who then all die in the first auto battle vs thin air.

    One way of doing it could be to make it so everyone gets the same ammount and type of units. So that its still random but everyone gets the same starting army,

    #202627

    Zakharov
    Member

    I think the simplest solution would be to give you either one T3 and four T1s, or three T2s and two T1s.

    #202663

    NuMetal
    Member

    I don’t think that randomness in starting units is a bad thing. I love me some randomness!
    However I’d be ok with a system that made sure that either all players or no player starts with a Tier3 unit.

    #202739

    AbednegoJC
    Member

    NuMetal – sure, I underdstand it. Thats why I love settler start, when I will be surprised what location for city I can have… thats best part of game for me…
    But here Im talking about serious mp games, where victory depends… and than it can be annoying when you get army of useless pikemans (some of them are) and oponent get his firstborn or strong supports….

    #202750

    NuMetal
    Member

    But here Im talking about serious mp games, where victory depends… and than it can be annoying when you get army of useless pikemans (some of them are) and oponent get his firstborn or strong supports….

    Yeah, I understood that. But if only either every player or no player can have a Tier 3 this couldn’t happen.
    I just think that would be a much easier solution.

    What I mean is that if you don’t start with a Tier3 it’s guaranteed that no other player starts with a Tier3. And if you start with a Tier3 it’s guaranteed that every opponent starts with a Tier 3 too.

    #202900

    Sharpnessism
    Member

    IMO every player should start with the same tier and # of units. That way strength imbalance will be minimized but we can still keep the randomness.

    E.g. If you start with a T3, T2, and a bunch of T1s, then the enemy will also have a T3, T2, and a bunch of T1s.

    Buying units would be too hard to balance IMO and there will inevitably be an “optimal buy out start”. I think keeping randomness is good, the only part that has to be changed is that some players get good units while others get a bunch of T1 irregulars.

    #202909

    nevodark
    Member

    IMO every player should start with the same tier and # of units. That way strength imbalance will be minimized but we can still keep the randomness.

    E.g. If you start with a T3, T2, and a bunch of T1s, then the enemy will also have a T3, T2, and a bunch of T1s.

    Buying units would be too hard to balance IMO and there will inevitably be an “optimal buy out start”. I think keeping randomness is good, the only part that has to be changed is that some players get good units while others get a bunch of T1 irregulars.

    This is what i meant in my post too.

    I think it would make it MUCH more balanced whilst keeping the randomness. Then again i think some of the units should be improved slightly so they aren’t totally useless to start with.

    #202927

    thabob79
    Member

    Getting some non scout class unit could be awesome too. Maybe only t1

    #203078

    ZHN_AK
    Member

    It is not all as clear as all get a T3 or none. Goblin and dwarf prices must be taken into account.

    #203094

    AbednegoJC
    Member

    IMO every player should start with the same tier and # of units. That way strength imbalance will be minimized but we can still keep the randomness.

    E.g. If you start with a T3, T2, and a bunch of T1s, then the enemy will also have a T3, T2, and a bunch of T1s.

    Buying units would be too hard to balance IMO and there will inevitably be an “optimal buy out start”. I think keeping randomness is good, the only part that has to be changed is that some players get good units while others get a bunch of T1 irregulars.

    You cant compare Goblin beetle or elf gryphon rider to shocktrooper or firstborn.
    beetles, gryphon rider, flyer, knight, eagle rider, frost queen – those dies often in first combat
    Firstborn never dies
    Shocktrooper sometimes do.

    And same situation is among to other units. You cant compare elf and human archer, or some supports… starting units has to have different price than usual.. because t3 is much better than anything else. And some units are better for start than others (like supports with minor heal – help you much in early game, not so great in midgame).

    #203107

    NuMetal
    Member

    You cant compare Goblin beetle or elf gryphon rider to shocktrooper or firstborn.
    beetles, gryphon rider, flyer, knight, eagle rider, frost queen – those dies often in first combat
    Firstborn never dies
    Shocktrooper sometimes do.

    Sure I can. Maybe the FirstBorn is better in Autbattles but it also has the least strategical movement.

    And same situation is among to other units. You cant compare elf and human archer, or some supports… starting units has to have different price than usual.. because t3 is much better than anything else. And some units are better for start than others (like supports with minor heal – help you much in early game, not so great in midgame).

    Well, the starting units would still need to be of the same value.
    The only thing I want to see the same for all players is that they all start with the same amount of Tier3s. The cost of units will still be regarded and a Goblin player with the Beetle Rider will just have way more units than the Dwarf player with the Firstborn.

    #203275

    IMO every player should start with the same tier and # of units. That way strength imbalance will be minimized but we can still keep the randomness.

    E.g. If you start with a T3, T2, and a bunch of T1s, then the enemy will also have a T3, T2, and a bunch of T1s.

    Buying units would be too hard to balance IMO and there will inevitably be an “optimal buy out start”. I think keeping randomness is good, the only part that has to be changed is that some players get good units while others get a bunch of T1 irregulars.

    You cant compare Goblin beetle or elf gryphon rider to shocktrooper or firstborn.
    beetles, gryphon rider, flyer, knight, eagle rider, frost queen – those dies often in first combat
    Firstborn never dies
    Shocktrooper sometimes do.

    And same situation is among to other units. You cant compare elf and human archer, or some supports… starting units has to have different price than usual.. because t3 is much better than anything else. And some units are better for start than others (like supports with minor heal – help you much in early game, not so great in midgame).

    You are right but it’s a solution that takes relatively little amount of work for the devs and it would be a big improvement to the current situation. Another way to implement it would be to just remove T3 units from the starting pool and implement the rest of my suggestion (i.e. everyone must start with the same number of T2 and T1 units; irregulars would count as T0.5).

    I don’t particularly like starting with T3 units myself because they are so much stronger than heroes early on.

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