Stealth continues to be bullshit…

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Stealth continues to be bullshit…

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This topic contains 57 replies, has 34 voices, and was last updated by  Garresh 7 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #185594

    Jaduggar
    Member

    That penguin army on the right, there, had absolutely no problem seeing my lone hero in transit, and killed it, despite it supposedly having arctic concealment. Went straight to it.

    No, the hero did not pass by the unit and tip it off.

    No, Dire Penguins do not have True Sight.

    Yes, that hero has remained in concealment for the last few turns while moving around.

    And, yes, the army will go directly to it again and again if I load and retry (which I did, both to get this screenshot, and to see if it was a coincidence).

    I have brought this issue up a thousand times, and I am sick of being told that stealth works against the AI, because it god damned doesnt. This entire game mechanic is useless, and yet it is everywhere in AGE 3. It is a complete waste of code >:(

    #185599

    GoblinCookie
    Member

    Penguins wander naturally. If the penguins get close enough to your unit they can see it regardless of whether it is concealed or not.

    In the map you show the logical path for the penguins to take is along the road, other paths lead into mountains or swamps. All penguins must do is take the right turn along the road at the junction and they will bump right into you without actually having seen you before.

    Basically lesson from Lord of the Rings STAY OFF THE ROADS!

    #185602

    Jaduggar
    Member

    And, yes, the army will go directly to it again and again if I load and retry (which I did, both to get this screenshot, and to see if it was a coincidence).

    I have loaded and ended turn several times… it goes directly to me every time. There are three directions it could take along that road (it spawned right where it is standing), so if this were chance, then it should only have a 1 in 3 chance of attacking me.

    #185603

    Mythabril
    Member

    Same happened to me with scoundrels seeking out my perfectly concealed hunters sitting a few hexes away from the path in the woods. Same with water concealment and ship fleets/floating dead. It definitely needs work until concealment actually conceals.

    #185605

    GeorgiSR
    Member

    Well that never worked against AI. Did somebody REALLY confirmed it is working? If so I’ve missed it. Basically if you play against a player it is something that you should employ – playing against AI – don’t bother… Cold hard facts up until now in my games.

    #185608

    Sartarius
    Member

    It doesnt work against AI, yes. Though it is quite useful in MP games.

    Just imagine how can you program AI not to “see” you but be on guard scouting nearby hexes from time to time? Or just make AI totally ignore invisible stacks? Then players can abuse it like hell.

    Better it to stay this way.

    #185609

    Jaduggar
    Member

    It definitely needs work until concealment actually conceals.

    Yes, it does… I have been mad as hell about this since Golden Realms when I payed money for an expansion with a heavy amount of stealth content, only to discover that not a damned bit of it worked.

    Did somebody REALLY confirmed it is working? If so I’ve missed it.

    The devs. I have had this argument no less than five times on this forum, now… my dead horse cant take much more beatings… and the devs have popped in on a couple of them and said that: YES… stealth works against the AI. And yet, I have never seen it work a single time. And I have tried. Again and again I have tried.

    Just imagine how can you program AI not to “see” you but be on guard scouting nearby hexes from time to time? Or just make AI totally ignore invisible stacks? Then players can abuse it like hell.

    If it isnt going to function, then it shouldnt be there. I didnt buy this game for multiplayer, and neither did 90% of the people who bought it. Multiplayer games make up only a very small number of the total number of games played in AGE. The devs chose to include this mechanic, and that means it should work. Other games have done it… AGE can find a way, as well.

    #185612

    Sugar Rush
    Member

    Well that never worked against AI. Did somebody REALLY confirmed it is working? If so I’ve missed it. Basically if you play against a player it is something that you should employ – playing against AI – don’t bother… Cold hard facts up until now in my games.

    Which is a shame because it is a whole game mechanic that is pointless in a large portion of the game (campaign, single player).

    Also, even if stealth is not fixed for the AI, it would be nice if the AI itself used stealth more efficiently. Make it so the AI is inclined to include units with the same concealment abilities in the same stack, as right now they often run 1 concealed unit with 1 non-concealed unit, making it somewhat redundant.

    #185617

    kwibus
    Member

    It doesnt work against AI, yes. Though it is quite useful in MP games.

    Just imagine how can you program AI not to “see” you but be on guard scouting nearby hexes from time to time? Or just make AI totally ignore invisible stacks? Then players can abuse it like hell.

    Better it to stay this way.

    I agree with you.
    How much I’d love it if the AI could properly deal with stealth of invisibility I do realise they probably won’t be able to deal with it.

    #185618

    quo
    Member

    It’s not entirely pointless. The AI uses it against players. Not super intelligently, but its a factor. Shadow Stalkers are some of the most annoying offenders. I’ve lost cities to attackers I never saw coming.

    It would be very nice if it worked better against the AI though. The Rogue class kind of depends on it.

    Maybe the workaround solution, altho not realistic exactly, is for the AI to only be capable of attacking a currently hidden unit if it has a unit in the stack with True Sight. That’s not a perfect representation of how Stealth actually works, but it would be a lot more fair.

    #185620

    Epaminondas
    Member

    If it isnt going to function, then it shouldnt be there. I didnt buy this game for multiplayer, and neither did 90% of the people who bought it. Multiplayer games make up only a very small number of the total number of games played in AGE. The devs chose to include this mechanic, and that means it should work. Other games have done it… AGE can find a way, as well.

    Amen.

    1. I didn’t think this function worked either from prior experience. But I didn’t want to argue with the devs and beta testers who claimed other wise, so I simply stopped relying on stealth v. AI.

    2. Now I am beginning to doubt even dev representations about AI not surrendering to each other. I will have to save games like every 3 turns so I can go back and see what happens when an AI loses to another AI.

    #185626

    Sugar Rush
    Member

    If people are worried about the AI being abused by concealment, wouldn’t making them more inclined to station support units as defenders go some way to balancing it out? It doesn’t need to be full proof IMO.

    #185628

    Bouh
    Member

    Perhaps it only work with player AI. It should actualy.

    #185653

    Dessad
    Member

    When friends who are interested in trying AoW3 ask me if the AI cheats in this game, I ALWAYS have to mention that stealth is basically broken. It wouldn’t be an issue if there weren’t specific game mechanics designed around/for it.

    #185654

    Taykor
    Member

    I have loaded and ended turn several times… it goes directly to me every time.

    This is not an argument, actually. RNG seed doesn’t change between save-loads, it’s stored in a save for repeatability, it’s intended.
    But…

    Perhaps it only work with player AI. It should actualy.

    While this could be true, I agree that roaming hostile units do see invisible units. I had a lot of experience with scoundrels, they always kill invisible solitary units.

    #185669

    Bouh
    Member

    IIRC AI should not consider invisible units in her decisions except in two situations :
    – when she saw the unit a few turns before (I don’t know how many turns) ;
    – garrisoned units to decide whether she can attack a city or not.

    The first one is to model how a player can assess where a unit he previously saw should have gone.

    The second is because if the AI don’t know what there is in a city, she will attack, see that she can’t take the city, retreat, see a lightly defended city and come back, and repeat.

    But indeed independant can possibly see invisible units.

    #185718

    Eomolch
    Member

    Hm maybe the independent stacks only use a “light” version of the full capabilities of an AI player and therefore ignore stealth. That is assuming that stealth indeed works vs AI players (which I didn’t test, but I’m inclined to believe the devs when they say it does). The question is if the game will get too CPU heavy if independent stacks also have to consider all the rules included when dealing with concealed units.

    #185756

    NuMetal
    Member

    Here is what I remember from the last time this has come up:

    Perhaps it only work with player AI.

    This is the case I think.

    IIRC AI should not consider invisible units in her decisions except in two situations :
    – when she saw the unit a few turns before (I don’t know how many turns) ;
    – garrisoned units to decide whether she can attack a city or not.

    I think currently it’s only that once an AI player has seen an invisible unit he will always know where it is.

    I agree that the current situation is unsatisfactory.
    If possible I’d like it to be changed the following ways:

    1. Hostile independents have the same rules as AI players
    2. When an AI player sees an invisible/concealed unit he knows its location for the next 3 turns (anticipation)
    3. When the AI moves towards a city with concealed/invisible defenders it will think they are still there for the next 10 turns or until it sees they aren’t there anymore.

    #185758

    Deified_Data
    Member

    Or just make AI totally ignore invisible stacks? Then players can abuse it like hell.

    Well…is this not how it’s supposed to work?

    #185780

    thabob79
    Member

    From what i remember reading, if ai saw you it knows where you are for some turn, you must move unseen completely for the enemy to ignore you. Also wandering units sem to take pretty much the same way each time they spawn, so if you get in their way…

    #185839

    CSav10
    Member

    I learn’t from Frodo that wearing rings of concealment just make you angry, that they need to be destroyed, and they draw the minions of Sauron closer to you.
    In all seriousness they are by far the most useless items especially because you generally take units on your heros(units make much better scouts, heros remain useful all game!) and they aren’t all going to have the ability. Even if the party gained artic concealment which would actually make it half decent, I would still probably sell it. Id Certainly take jacks gift over it any day. I can only see it useful against other human players in occasional situations.

    #185869

    Stormwind
    Member

    I love this game and have very few complaints, but this is one of them.

    I have had the pleasure of using stealth in MP, and it is just loads of fun doing it (even makes up for eventually losing the game later!). Having your killer stack that just got arctic concealment wait in the ice next to an enemy town and watch the garrison blissfully leave is very satisfactory.

    It should work against the AI. Once it (accidentally perhaps) sees a stack, give it omniscience for a little while, thats fine, your cover would have been blown agaainst a human too and it simulates pretty well whaat a human would do.

    But it needs to be there for the SP experience. There are a ton of items and abilites and mechanics that I just completely ignore in SP mode and its a shame.

    #185874

    Unknown250
    Member

    To me, the big issue here is that it seems to be inconsistent. I’ve had times where a superior AI stack will leave my Concealed units alone, I’ve had times where they’ll beeline right to me. In both cases, the inscrutability of the AI makes it worse. Did they see me, but ignore me for other reasons? Did they not see me, but just blunder into me? There’s no real way of knowing.

    I do kind of think it works just because the AI’s behaviour towards Concealed units is a fair bit different from AoW 2/SM, where it didn’t work at all – i.e. here they’ll sometimes attack me, sometimes they won’t, whereas in AoW SM the AI would always unerringly attack my Concealed stacks.

    Also, as others have pointed out:

    1. OP’s example is flawed, because there’s no random seed and as a result it’s just the same thing occurring over and over again

    2. It’s possible that Concealment only works against AI players, and not independents (which kind of makes sense – e.g. it prevents Concealed units from razing enemy structures and then not having to worry about the indies that spawn in retaliation)

    Ultimately, whether it works against all AI, only player AI, or no AI at all, the Devs should lay it out, clear as crystal, in the Tome of Wonders description for Concealment.

    #185878

    thabob79
    Member

    From

    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/stealth-is-kinda-lame/

    Narvek

    Keymaster
    Stormwind wrote:
    I really wish the devs would say, officially, just how the AI handles stealth and concealment.
    If a unit is concealed the AI will not be able to target it.
    However, if the AI has seen the unit and decided to attack it, it will track it even though it may become concealed later (this is to give the AI a chance like humans who can guess just about where the enemy will probably have moved).

    An exception to this is when the AI targets cities. If there are concealed units there, because the AI calculates the threat of that target, it will take their strength into account. If it didn’t, it would probably go back and forth endlessly: Oh, empty city: attack -> gets in range: yikes too many defenders -> gets out of range: Oh, empty city: attack etc. etc.

    #185880

    zephyrcloud
    Member

    The best thing Triumph can do for the game going forward is address the remaining issues with the AI–broken stealth, AI doesn’t build forts/roads, sub-optimal settler usage–improve their Steam integration for multiplayer, and release modding tools to the community. I feel like we’re good on content for a while. (Thanks to the devs for another great expansion!) I’ll keep my fingers crossed for more AI improvements in the next big patch.

    #185883

    Mythabril
    Member

    If roaming units need more simplistic AI, make them just ignore concealed units completely and only take them into account if they happen to be part of a stack they are about to attack. Really, the most utility concealment has is to allow exploration without getting nabbed by some scoundrels three steps from the city border.

    #185891

    stellarrat
    Member

    And, yes, the army will go directly to it again and again if I load and retry (which I did, both to get this screenshot, and to see if it was a coincidence).

    Your test might not be valid IF the random seed is saved and reloaded each time you reload. This is a common practice, so you always get the same results on a reload. I don’t know how the developers coded this so they would have to tell us.

    #185970

    Garresh
    Member

    *emerges from the shadows*

    Stealth works vs AI. It has since golden realms. It still does. Luck of pathing can cause an enemy to stumble across your troops, as when traveling on roads. And the AI understands the concept of object permanence. If it sees troops which disappear, it knows they’re around and acts accordingly. To truly sneak vs the AI you must never leave the shadows.

    Now then…

    *disappears into the shadows*

    #185980

    Eji1700
    Member

    I can confirm that it at least works vs enemy player ai. no clue about roaming independents.

    I had a single human assassin darting around an enemy city, and past their much larger armies, for multiple turns(10+) while i recast various spells.

    #185986

    Ericridge
    Member

    Exactly like Garresh says.

    I’ve tripped over several stealthed units from the AI by accident and killed them. And I heard accusations of haxx0r and cheats from the AI as the result too.

    Dumb luck plays a factor in aow3 because you could discover a formerly hidden invasion force and foil it completely otherwise it would’ve completely wrecked you instead. I have seen this happen a bunch of times with me doing the foiling of AI invasions quite a few times. Most recent one was my Six exploring Galleons assassinating Werlac and stopping his momentum completely otherwise my split up forces would’ve been destroyed piecemeal. I lost all six galleons but won the game cuz of it.

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