Stiffen limbs – Too strong?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Stiffen limbs – Too strong?

This topic contains 25 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  Bouh 7 years ago.

Viewing 26 posts - 1 through 26 (of 26 total)
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  • #192934

    kwibus
    Member

    Isn’t this spell just too strong for a starter spell?

    The spell itself isn’t incredibly strong, but the fact that it doesn’t have a resistance check makes it too strong to start with imo.
    Stiffen limbs on the strong enemy unit and kite it too death. It’s just too easy. Atleast give it a chance too fail.

    Or make it a spell for mid tier.

    #192937

    Meeky
    Member

    Slayer’s Doubt is a comparable spell and arguably a better spell. It has the same effect + a heavy morale bonus, but comes with a saving throw. If it fails, the enemy is still considerably slowed.

    If Slayer’s Doubt can be a starter spell, so can Stiffen Limbs.

    #192945

    ZHN_AK
    Member

    It is a good spell. I don’t think it is too good though, as I find that the necromancers need the help early on.

    #192978

    zeelilus
    Member

    I don’t think it’s OP or anything. I just find it odd that it has zero resistance checks or chances to fail or anything.

    #193038

    Althea
    Member

    Slayer’s Doubt is a comparable spell and arguably a better spell. It has the same effect + a heavy morale bonus, but comes with a saving throw. If it fails, the enemy is still considerably slowed.
    If Slayer’s Doubt can be a starter spell, so can Stiffen Limbs.

    The fact that stiffen limb always hit means that it will slow down multiple foes quicker than slayer doubt.

    That’s what makes it OP. That plus if stiffen limb always hit, it’s perfect as a combo with slayer doubt.

    You can say that it doesn’t affect undead and machine, but so does slayer doubt.

    I’d take stiffen limb any day over slayer doubt.

    It should have a fail/success check. Or if it has no fail/success check, remove the movement speed reduction, or at best it should only reduce 10 or 8 MP (or maybe even just -6 MP), not -12 MP.

    Another change is maybe the effect stays the same, but make the CP cost 15.

    #193089

    Eomolch
    Member

    Alternatively the effect could only last 2-3 turns instead of until end of combat. Even then it would be still very good.

    #193100

    cosa65
    Member

    I like the lasting 3 turns idea

    #193119

    Thirded. For seven mana, slowing a tough unit down for 3 turns is still a great bargain.

    #193125

    Yeah, the necromancer has a hard early game, so the spell becomes essential for them. Maybe you could make it 8 mama, so necros couldn’t do it twice for other classes?

    #193153

    Teehon
    Member

    Yeah, as a necro I found it basically foolproof when using deathbringers – cast stiffen limbs, barrage the unit with Reanimators – 100% Ghoul Curse.
    In big battles, casting stiffen limbs on a slow unit like Firstborn basically takes him out of the battle. For 7 MP it IS too strong.

    #193180

    ariga
    Member

    Slayer Doubt -18 mouvement reduction but -800 moral(HUGE debuff) so it can fail
    Stiffen limb only -12 & no moral debuff so it can fail it’s totally fair whatever u think also both can be removed by brake control

    #193187

    thabob79
    Member

    It’s pretty similar to soin of oïl of fire adept. Both can’t be resisted, cost 7 cp, stiffen limb cause -2 phy strenght, -2 def -12 MP for the battle. Skin of oïl cause -2 phy strenght, -2 def, -2 res and 60% fire weakness. Seem pretty similar to me.

    #193208

    ariga
    Member

    Don’t say that they will want to nerf skin of oil now…

    #193238

    kwibus
    Member

    I think the movement penalty is very efficient and the most important one.

    So maybe it’s comparable to skin of oil, but I’m pretty confident stiffen limbs is being used a LOT more. Simply because it is better.

    #193239

    CSav10
    Member

    Definately skin of oil is OP, next patch 50CP 1% fire weakness only, requires 3AP ;).

    #193367

    zeelilus
    Member

    You can’t get skin of oil on a random hero that I’m aware of. I understand that a necro player needs it for the early game, but the problem is other classes just spamming necro heroes for the cheap and always effective spell.

    #193446

    You can’t get skin of oil on a random hero that I’m aware of. I understand that a necro player needs it for the early game, but the problem is other classes just spamming necro heroes for the cheap and always effective spell.

    Such as Stiffen Limbs, Dark Gift and….?

    #193523

    zeelilus
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>zeelilus wrote:</div>
    You can’t get skin of oil on a random hero that I’m aware of. I understand that a necro player needs it for the early game, but the problem is other classes just spamming necro heroes for the cheap and always effective spell.

    Such as Stiffen Limbs, Dark Gift and….?

    Forgive me, but I’m not quite sure I understand what you’re asking.

    #193528

    Jyrgunkarrd
    Member

    Forgive me, but I’m not quite sure I understand what you’re asking.

    Undead heroes do not have a large number of useful, spammable spells. They have roughly 2.

    They aren’t a very good deal (unless you’re playing a Necromancer).

    Stiffen Limbs seems alright to me, given the context that it’s most abusable during a game state where the Necromancer has incredibly bad units, limited stack health regeneration, terrible resists, etc. It’s a good spell – why shouldn’t classes have access to good spells?

    Like, yeah, I can disable a Firstborn. And which class can’t? On the other hand, Stiffen Limbs doesn’t work on most high tier targets (unlike, say, Entangle) and falls off in usefulness as a result (besides, I’m spending most of my casting points casting and re-casting Undying Army in the mid-late game).

    People seem to have this idea that no spell should ever be good. It should all be mediocre or terrible crap that you’d never actually want to use.

    #193532

    llfoso
    Member

    Stiffen Limbs: -12mp, -2 def, -2 melee, no resist, 7 cp
    Slayer’s Doubt: -16mp, -800 morale, 18 spirit resist check, 8 cp
    Slow: Halved mp (typically between -14 and -18 mp), no retaliations/attacks of opportunity, no resist check, 10 cp

    I don’t know how to compare all of these. Slow should obviously be the strongest since it’s a mastery tier IV spell. How does -2 def and -2 melee compare to -800 morale? I don’t know the math very well on fumbles.

    Yeah, as a necro I found it basically foolproof when using deathbringers – cast stiffen limbs, barrage the unit with Reanimators – 100% Ghoul Curse.

    IMO despair is a really strong debuff and shouldn’t be stackable. That’s the issue there.

    #193541

    Forgive me, but I’m not quite sure I understand what you’re asking.

    You said:

    the problem is other classes just spamming necro heroes for the cheap and always effective spell.

    And I want to know what these spells are.
    We have Stiffen Limbs which is cheap and effective during the early game mostly.
    And we have Dark Gift which isn’t cheap but quite effective.

    And that’s kinda it in special contributions a Necromancers spellbook provides to other classes. for the most part.
    So the problem you state kinda doesn’t exist. And I was asking you for a proof to your claims.

    I don’t know how to compare all of these. Slow should obviously be the strongest since it’s a mastery tier IV spell. How does -2 def and -2 melee compare to -800 morale? I don’t know the math very well on fumbles.

    http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Units#Morale

    It varies by base morale of the target. Highest morale (600 and above) gives 25% chance to crit and deal max. damage with a third extra damage, whereas lowest morale (-600 and below) gives 40% chance to fumble and deal min. damage with a third less damage. As the damage span is +/- 20% of the calculated medium, this adds up.
    Minus 800 morale from neutral is enough to change morale to worst and roughly a loss of 20% damage, though unevenly distributed.
    If the target morale is highest at +600 that changes an average uneven 13% extra damage into an average uneven 8% penalty, so the same 20% loss.

    So it equals minus 20% damage on average. The exception are edge cases where the unit already has bad morale or significant above 600 morale and the damage loss through morale is lessened.

    IMO despair is a really strong debuff and shouldn’t be stackable. That’s the issue there.

    It is only strong because it stacks, and because the Necro deals a lot with the spirit channel. 2-3 applications of despair (-200 morale, 20% spirit weakness for 3 turns) have less power as a single application of weakened (-1 Def, -1 res,- 200 morale and 60% blight weakness for 5 turns; blight doctors can apply it even to immune units) and so far I have seen nobody complaining about that.

    #193544

    llfoso
    Member

    I would be ok with it if it had a limit on how many times it could stack.

    Blight weakness can’t do anything as immensely powerful as spirit weakness anyway. 100% ghoul curse chance, 100% inflict panic chance, 100% invoke death chance, 100% convert/charm/seduce chance from dwelling units or ghouled bards/succubi/evangelists or theocrat/rogue heroes, not to mention spells like berserk from other heroes.

    These things shouldn’t be possible.

    #193548

    Khelle
    Member

    Sorry for offtoping a little but is there information anywhere in the game which skills can fail and which not? I don’t recall seeing this information, and frankly, taking how much important things like this are hidden from the player before he tries something X times, the gameplay is really confusing sometimes…

    #193553

    zeelilus
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>zeelilus wrote:</div>
    Forgive me, but I’m not quite sure I understand what you’re asking.

    You said:

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>zeelilus wrote:</div>
    the problem is other classes just spamming necro heroes for the cheap and always effective spell.

    And I want to know what these spells are.<br>
    We have Stiffen Limbs which is cheap and effective during the early game mostly.<br>
    And we have Dark Gift which isn’t cheap but quite effective.

    And that’s kinda it in special contributions a Necromancers spellbook provides to other classes. for the most part.<br>
    So the problem you state kinda doesn’t exist. And I was asking you for a proof to your claims.

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>llfoso wrote:</div>
    I don’t know how to compare all of these. Slow should obviously be the strongest since it’s a mastery tier IV spell. How does -2 def and -2 melee compare to -800 morale? I don’t know the math very well on fumbles.

    http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Units#Morale

    It varies by base morale of the target. Highest morale (600 and above) gives 25% chance to crit and deal max. damage with a third extra damage, whereas lowest morale (-600 and below) gives 40% chance to fumble and deal min. damage with a third less damage. As the damage span is +/- 20% of the calculated medium, this adds up.<br>
    Minus 800 morale from neutral is enough to change morale to worst and roughly a loss of 20% damage, though unevenly distributed.<br>
    If the target morale is highest at +600 that changes an average uneven 13% extra damage into an average uneven 8% penalty, so the same 20% loss.

    So it equals minus 20% damage on average. The exception are edge cases where the unit already has bad morale or significant above 600 morale and the damage loss through morale is lessened.

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>llfoso wrote:</div>
    IMO despair is a really strong debuff and shouldn’t be stackable. That’s the issue there.

    It is only strong because it stacks, and because the Necro deals a lot with the spirit channel. 2-3 applications of despair (-200 morale, 20% spirit weakness for 3 turns) have less power as a single application of weakened (-1 Def, -1 res,- 200 morale and 60% blight weakness for 5 turns; blight doctors can apply it even to immune units) and so far I have seen nobody complaining about that.

    I never said necro has multiple OP spells? This thread was talking about stiffen limbs in particular I thought?

    I just don’t know of any other spells that don’t require SOME measure of effort to get that don’t have a check. Skin of oil was mentioned but you have to commit to those spheres for that.

    Compared to any other hero you can get stiffen limbs is the most powerful debuff for how easy it is to obtain. It’d be like if warlord’s beserk had no check, it’s pretty much a starting skill for any hero you’d get.

    I actually haven’t had necro heroes yet, so I don’t know how good it is. It’s just on paper when you compare stiffen limbs to things like beserk or rogue’s cause panic it seems meh that it has a 100% success rate.

    It allows for near infinite kiting of an enemy from what I have seen. That seems at least as strong as several spells that DO have to check.

    #193555

    Meeky
    Member

    Sorry for offtoping a little but is there information anywhere in the game which skills can fail and which not?

    When you’re preparing to cast a spell, it will list a %chance of success based on the target’s Resistance stat + the target’s weaknesses and protections vs. elements (since some spells are keyed to certain elements, such as Smite to Spirit). Those are spells with a %chance of failure. If they fail, they either A) reduce the enemy’s movement speed for one combat round or B) in the case of damage spells they deal reduced damage.

    A couple spells and abilities – Weaken, Skin of Oil and Stiffen Limbs are good examples – do NOT have a chance of failure. They simply work, period.

    #193786

    Bouh
    Member

    More and more spells have no fail check. The game is being dumbed down for “balance” sake.

    Ps : also, power creep.

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