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Jolly Joker 6 years, 7 months ago.
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Title says it all:
How about a small RACIAL Technology Tree? This would basically work like Specialization techs, except that you’d get the techs by picking your starting race. As with Avatar techs, they would simply be added to the class techs.
I don’t think, we would need many, something like 1 tech for each tier, so that Race techs would add 6 or 7 techs.
Dwarves, for example, would have mining techs, tunneling techs and probably weapon/armor improvement techs.Jolly Joker, I think, this is really the great idea!) +1 🙂
At first, I was going to write “+1”, then I realized that limiting race techs only to starting race is just bad and probably hard to balance idea. On the other if we were to have access to ALL races techs then instead of 6-7 techs we would get (6-7)*9 = 54-63 techs which is overwhelming and would totally destroy research book, so there should be better solution, but…. wait, a second… isn’t it exactly what race governance option does?
Maybe instead of adding racial technology tree, better option would be to just expand number of options to choose from in racial governance panel?Cool idea, I’d love something like this.
Would it be integrated into the existing research book, though? There’s a lot of stuff in there already.
This is already in the game and it’s called racial governance
But I think we are talking about something more unique than +1 to the damage or +10 to the income! Or not?
I think Racial Governance is essentially a racial tech, and RG is even better because:
- it does not clutter the spell book.
- it offers choices.
- players can access RG from all races, provide they get the races’ cities.
Now, if Triumph seeks to shake things a little for the next expansion, perhaps because the Shadow Realm is opened again etc, I strongly suggest Triumph to expand the RG to racial factions.
At RG1, players can choose a race’s faction. For the example, elven cities can choose between “High Elves” faction or “Dark Elves” faction.
Then, at RG2, High Elves players can choose between “High Elves Marksmanship” which gives +1 range damage or “High Elves Tree Farm” which gives +100 population/city.
Dark Elves players can choose between “Dark Elves Blade Mastery” which gives elven Swordsman “evolve to Bladedancer” at Gold rank or “Dark Elves Mana Harvest” which gives +5 mana for Shrines.For Humans, it might be “Commonwealth” and “Rebel” factions.
For Goblin, a “Tinkerer” faction (Goblin Suicide Bomber, anyone?) and more “Savage” one (hello, Wyvern Rider), etc.
This way, we can have two types/factions of Elves (and also for other races), and each type/faction can promote a new way of playing. Essentially, we doubles the number of the races, but with limited works for Triumph since they don’t have to make the 7 racial units for the new factions. They just need to make one or two new unique units for each factions, for example Bladesinger for Dark Elves, or Leprechaun for Hill Halflings etc.
Furthermore, if each faction’s RGs are unique enough, then we will have even more diversity! The RG system has a tremendous potential, if only Triumph is willing to take one step forward and make each RG gives something unique, not only “military” or “economy”. Why not a RG which gives a unique spell, more crafting points in Arcane Forge, etc?
If Triumph adopt this proposal then we will have:
18 factions
x16 possible RG combinations for each factions
x7 classesI think Racial Governance is essentially a racial tech, and RG is even better because:
- it does not clutter the spell book.
- it offers choices.
- players can access RG from all races, provide they get the races’ cities.
Now, if Triumph seeks to shake things a little for the next expansion, perhaps because the Shadow Realm is opened again etc, I strongly suggest Triumph to expand the RG to racial factions.
At RG1, players can choose a race’s faction. For the example, elven cities can choose between “High Elves” faction or “Dark Elves” faction.
Then, at RG2, High Elves players can choose between “High Elves Marksmanship” which gives +1 range damage or “High Elves Tree Farm” which gives +100 population/city.
Dark Elves players can choose between “Dark Elves Blade Mastery” which gives elven Swordsman “evolve to Bladedancer” at Gold rank or “Dark Elves Mana Harvest” which gives +5 mana for Shrines.For Humans, it might be “Commonwealth” and “Rebel” factions.
For Goblin, a “Tinkerer” faction (Goblin Suicide Bomber, anyone?) and more “Savage” one (hello, Wyvern Rider), etc.
This way, we can have two types/factions of Elves (and also for other races), and each type/faction can promote a new way of playing. Essentially, we doubles the number of the races, but with limited works for Triumph since they don’t have to make the 7 racial units for the new factions. They just need to make one or two new unique units for each factions, for example Bladesinger for Dark Elves, or Leprechaun for Hill Halflings etc.
Furthermore, if each faction’s RGs are unique enough, then we will have even more diversity! The RG system has a tremendous potential, if only Triumph is willing to take one step forward and make each RG gives something unique, not only “military” or “economy”. Why not a RG which gives a unique spell, more crafting points in Arcane Forge, etc?
If Triumph adopt this proposal then we will have:
18 factions
x16 possible RG combinations for each factions
x7 classes+1
I disagree in principle, because RG is something else insofar that you can’t influence development/eligibility. Also, I would rather like the tech book to be a little more “cluttered”.
Tech is also different than making a building cheaper or adding a stat to a certain unit (type). Racial tech, the way I would imagine it, should build on the racial specialties of a race. Frostlings, for example might have a synergy tech with water. Racial governance is just a bonus for the fact that you have a lot of population of said race. The way I envision racial tech is that the race – via said researchable techs – influences the class just the way specs do.This was suggested several times last year, and racial governance was the dev’s answer, and IMO it’s a much more interesting system than simple race skills would be.
Still, it might be cool to have some racial spells. I’m surprised none of the racial governance upgrades unlock spells as a matter of fact.
Race already has a massive influence on playstyle, why do you want it to have more? Racial governance already provides a system by which your empire is developed as determined by your race. If you feel like those choices aren’t exciting enough, that’s a different matter, a second tech system doesn’t need to be added to accommodate what another system already fulfills (or, if you are unhappy with it, is supposed to fulfill).
The tech book is already massively cluttered, getting a specific research that you want is already a giant pain in the ass and involves making spec choices that don’t boat the section of the book you need to get a research out of (going Expander on Warlord, for example, is a bad idea, because you’ll be stuck having to research unnecessary techs like +movement on builders before you can research really important stuff like training regimen that it’s absolutely critical for you to have asap)
No thanks. RG is a better solution.
This is something I’ve always wanted, a small tech tree for classes sounds really good 🙂
When are we going to see seperate tech trees for the different dwellings and resource sites in or empire, that’s what I want to know
Where’s my dragonscale armor and magma forged weapons upgrades triumph
I think the game is pretty good as it is, so no racial tech makes me shrug – however, I can’t share the enthusiasm for Racial governance.
RG’s military arm is basically a modified Mystical City Upgrade effect. Units get better or cheaper, gain an ability. Fine. Economy means, you save or gain some gold or mana or pop. Fine.
But it’s lackluster.
Now look a the racial defense buildings. Jumping rabbits, hurled nets, all kinds of crazy RACE-INDIVIDUAL stuff. That’s pretty close to what I would call a “race-specific spell” – which would be researchable as a combat spell racial tech.
Then look at esvath’s suggestion: I think it sucks, because it’s too mechanical and tries to gain too much; two different Fronstlings, Tigrans, Dracs – wtf?
But racial techs could close the gaps WAY better because they would be much more flexible: for example, instead of going the full Dark Elven way, an Elven Race tech might be PRODUCE BLADE DANCER. Another Elven tech might be SUMMON UNICORN.Now, RG affects RACIAL units mostly. Racial TECHS would be different insofar that obviously you could produce a blade dancer even when playing Dread – as you can produce an engineer. It could close a gap.
It could also offer a vehicle for bringing in missing stuff: SUMMON EFREET … PRODUCE HYDRA, PRODUCE MINOTAUR … Magic Weapon, Global damage spells…Sounds like a better solution for you would be an rg overhaul instead of racial techs then
“blight terrain research tree” is officially on my wish list for “features I want added in a future expansion” though
Then look at esvath’s suggestion: I think it sucks, because it’s too mechanical and tries to gain too much; two different Fronstlings, Tigrans, Dracs – wtf?
I fail to understand why you are so vehemently disagree with my suggestion. It can provide functions just like what you suggested. You can still have produce Bladedancers as any class, just like how you can produce Tame Trolls now as any class.
The differences would be:
- If the new racial stuffs are put in techs, they will clutter the spell book, while they won’t if they are put in RG.
- If they are put in techs, they will be determined by the leader’s race, while if in RG, they will be determined by your cities’s race.
- if they are put in techs, you can only have one racial tech tree per game, while if in RG, you have the possibility to access more than one. You can play as purist Elf if you want to limit yourself.
Dense vegetation tech tree is.a treasure trove of potential game content
if races get a tech tree I genuinely want everything to have a tech tree, your empire development could be shaped by literally every aspect of the empire itself
I’d also prefer if RG is extended instead of a new tech tree; because regarding the approach to get the skills I don’t see much difference between RG and research. The idea is to collect either candles or RG points. There is a difference in the category of skills though: RG upgrades only provide some kind of empire upgrades so far. Hence further choices that grant strategic or combat spells (including synergies with specializations) seem to be an interesting addition.
Similarly I like RG upgrades that allow recruiting new units and it’s even better if they were extended to small new subfactions.
Yeah, but I WANT to clutter the spell book more and I WANT another spec kind of tech, leader-dependent and I would WANT only 1 possible racial tech tree – that*s why I suggest it. In my opinion that would be assets.
RG has the problem that there is no or only a wee bit class synergy. RACE units/buildings and so on get better. But Race TECH would basically imprint the racial special things onto the whole class thing which is something else entirely.
Example: Goblin Sorcerer. Goblin Tech: Power of the Blight. All units gain a Blight Channel. Inclusing Wisps and Phantasms and the summoned stuff.
Racial governance COULD do that – but RG is, as I said, too mechanical for my liking.Oh and small sub factions are a very bad idea, imo.
Literally nothing you said is even slightly appealing to me
I would honestly rather have governance expanded to include dwellings, sites, biome types, and terrain types, than see more spellbook clutter in the form of unnecessary race technologies
But Race TECH would basically imprint the racial special things onto the whole class thing which is something else entirely.
Example: Goblin Sorcerer. Goblin Tech: Power of the Blight. All units gain a Blight Channel. Inclusing Wisps and Phantasms and the summoned stuff.So what you want is a race-dependent class tech, where Goblin Sorcerer gets Power of the Blight and Elven Sorcerer gets something else?
If that so, yes, that will be different with RG.
I still prefer expanding RG, though, but I can understand your position.
I prefer our current system. I bought this game on the strength of the promise I could play magically inclined humans or savage elves or industrious orcs without being penalised for not picking a class and race that “match”. Having spells limited by race, or frankly by any factor other than the will and discipline of the magician, would make the game far worse in my reckoning, and I’ve already written a small thesis on why uniform dreadnought technology is best.
I prefer our current system. I bought this game on the strength of the promise I could play magically inclined humans or savage elves or industrious orcs without being penalised for not picking a class and race that “match”. Having spells limited by race, or frankly by any factor other than the will and discipline of the magician, would make the game far worse in my reckoning, and I’ve already written a small thesis on why uniform dreadnought technology is best.
Same here
I don’t see where you would be limited. The “limitations” were the same as with an elemental spec. Are those limiting?
It’s like if you were forced to pick Fire Spec every time you wanted to play Draconians, which would be kinda dumb and limiting. Race works really well as an element of the game that’s totally separated from the spellbook.
Why should a race force you to take a specialization? Playing Dreadnought also not forces you to choose Fire because skin of oil fits to fire damage.
If Draconians also have fire affinity they could get a better option for Dreadnoughts with fire spec. On the other hand humans then maybe have synergies with water; so as a human Dreadnought, it gets a harder decision if you choose fire or air or water (or something else).
Having your spellbook be dictated by your racial choice just blows. What if you don’t like the techs you get from that race? Well tough shit I guess, either you’re stuck with a bunch of garbage in your spellbook that you don’t want to use, or you don’t get to start with the racial units you really want.
It works well with Class because Class is the single biggest factor of your gameplay, it’s what you build all your other choices around. There’s no need for Race to start edging in on that territory, having a central choice to build off of works really well.
Why should a race force you to take a specialization? Playing Dreadnought also not forces you to choose Fire because skin of oil fits to fire damage.
Good point.
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