T4 Spamming soulution

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions T4 Spamming soulution

This topic contains 32 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by  Sunicle 8 years ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 33 total)
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  • #80628

    Athei
    Member

    Easy – just make them limited like heroes. In advanced option before the battle, player can choose number of T4 units per player. Ranges from 1-20, and a check-box option for unlimited T4 per player (for those that are weird, and like to have T4 spamming).

    There easy solution. No nerfing the T4 or buffing the T1-3. Right now the situation on higher difficulty is ridiculous… Imagine AoM Titans where every unit is Titan…

    #80635

    vota dc
    Member

    Check box is a cool idea. They should add max tech level as an option.
    But the best solution could be using wasted production to produce more than one unit at turn.

    #80654

    Zyrus
    Member

    Any “Limit # of T4” idea is dumb, all it would lead is… T3 spamming, hardly solving the issue, everyone would quickly figure out the best T3 (bow down to our Dwarven overlords) and that would be spammed then.

    Best solution is variety, add more T4s, in particular, racial T4.

    #80663

    pulseunit
    Member

    Yup, let’s not make T3 the new T4.

    Maybe there should be hard T2 counters to every T4. Maybe there are already, I don’t pretend to have researched it thoroughly, just built my own T4 doom-stacks just like everybody else has been doing.

    #80665

    Athei
    Member

    Best solution is variety, add more T4s, in particular, racial T4.

    Because it is so easy, time and budget friendly! I can already see the devs jumping to do just that…NOT!

    What we need is a solution now, not a possible solution with the next expansion!
    And so what if there would be T3 spamming after? Difference in power between T2 and T3 is not that great like between T3-T4…

    #80680

    Mivo
    Member

    They already said they’ll address the issue by increasing the requirements for T4 units (see one of the sticky posts). Let’s see how that works out. Limiting the number you can have by adding a numerical cap feels a bit artificial to me. I feel it’s better to make it harder and more costly to get and maintain T4 units. If someone has an overpowering position where they can afford lots of T4 units, then they’ve won anyway.

    #80692

    Athei
    Member

    I hope you are right, current situation is laughable at best. I once won a fight with 1 Horned God against ~10 archers (tier 1? 2 maybe…) Which means that T4 is worth approximately 10 T1s. T1 takes 1 turn to create, t4 takes 2-3 turns to create… And upkeep is something funny, like 30gp per turn. As I said… laughable…

    #80705

    catsnffer
    Member

    I’ve been banging on about adding a limit option for a while now. To me, it seems like such a perfect and quick fix. Doesn’t really help the single player campaign, though.

    #80708

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Any “Limit # of T4″ idea is dumb, all it would lead is… T3 spamming, hardly solving the issue, everyone would quickly figure out the best T3 (bow down to our Dwarven overlords) and that would be spammed then.

    I agree with this.

    Best solution is variety, add more T4s, in particular, racial T4.

    But not this, because you do not address the fundamental issue – T1s and most T2s are too weak and utterly useless.

    #80749

    brxbrx
    Member

    The OP’s idea is good. I also like limiting the amount recruitable per city, and also limiting the amount of t3 units.

    That way, armies will be more composite, making the game more interesting.

    #80757

    Any “Limit # of T4″ idea is dumb, all it would lead is… T3 spamming, hardly solving the issue, everyone would quickly figure out the best T3 (bow down to our Dwarven overlords) and that would be spammed then.

    Best solution is variety, add more T4s, in particular, racial T4.

    This line of reasoning is incredibly stupid.

    T3 units have far more variety and far more counters than avaliable to them than compared with T4s and lower tiered units are perfectly able to compete with them on a far larger scale than against T4.

    The best T4 solution though is to simply not take 100-200+ turns to beat a map.

    #80763

    liclic
    Member

    It is true that certain T3 are really overtanky and T4 also.

    I read elsewhere that Triumph thinks on having only 1 T4 unit per stack maximum. It is the beginning of an idea. Other ideas would be that, a T4 takes the upkeep of a metropolis and T3 at least half. (That is 89 and 45). Let don’t touch T2 and T1 for example and you find that is too much difference which is not suitable for a well balanced game.

    #80766

    brxbrx
    Member

    Limiting t3s would be a good idea as well.
    After all, how many knights can a city realistically produce?
    How great of a percentage of an army could knights make up?
    I propose a cap of one T4 per two metropolises, and of one T3 per city.
    I’d also like to see dragons limited to one per dwelling.
    This would see much more use of T1 and T2 units, making the game far more interesting.

    #80767

    Athei
    Member

    This line of reasoning is incredibly stupid.

    T3 units have far more variety and far more counters than avaliable to them than compared with T4s and lower tiered units are perfectly able to compete with them on a far larger scale than against T4.

    I agree with this completely.

    The best T4 solution though is to simply not take 100-200+ turns to beat a map.

    But I can’t agree with this 🙂 I love playing on super huge maps, and prolonging the battle for days…

    #80781

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>minusthedrifter wrote:</div>
    The best T4 solution though is to simply not take 100-200+ turns to beat a map.

    But I can’t agree with this :) I love playing on super huge maps, and prolonging the battle for days…

    😛

    In this case I really do feel they should add in an “epic” or “marathon” mode like in Civ so that not only will you be able to have your long games, but everything from build times to research times will be adjusted accordingly. 🙂

    This would see much more use of T1 and T2 units

    Why does it seem so many people are obsessed over t1/2 units?! These are literally the starting units in the game and people want to see pebble throwers able to compete with end game units. Makes no sense. T1/2 are not all that amazingly varied anyways and are basically the same across all races with a few token differences thrown in.

    Is their utility a bit short? Probably. Should they be the back bone of an army 30-40 turns in? Hell no.

    #80788

    Yarovit
    Member

    I think AoW2 solution is best. T4 units aren’t much stronger than T3 there. I think it’s the best solution, T1 and T2 are useful against T3(or is it just me :P) so would be fine as support against T4s. I don’t think limiting is good idea. Other than heroes limits of course.

    #80799

    brxbrx
    Member

    Why does it seem so many people are obsessed over t1/2 units?! These are literally the starting units in the game and people want to see pebble throwers able to compete with end game units. Makes no sense. T1/2 are not all that amazingly varied anyways and are basically the same across all races with a few token differences thrown in.

    Is their utility a bit short? Probably. Should they be the back bone of an army 30-40 turns in? Hell no.

    Because it doesn’t make sense for an army to consist only of T3/T4, and because units should complement each other, not replace each other.
    They should become obsolete. That’s no fun.

    #80803

    gunnergoz
    Member

    One possibility would be to give experience perks to T1’s and T2’s that make them better at defending against T4’s. Might be best if only their defenses were tweaked so they do not become offensive powerhouses, which is what the T4’s should be. This should give cities a better chance to survive a siege by AI T4’s.

    #80806

    Mourioche
    Member

    They already said they’ll address the issue by increasing the requirements for T4 units

    Change the requirement cannot stop the T4 spam.
    It just delay it.
    The time to contruct buildings added in requirement is just a delay, and when you have requirement you can spam.

    Limiting the number you can have by adding a numerical cap feels a bit artificial to me.

    I dont think that the problem is T4 spam, but T4 stack… are you agree ?

    As i said in an other post, consider that strong unit cannot group each other
    (Why ?… because each of them want to lead ? Or consider each other as danger ?)
    And in case of T4 group, lower their hapiness so they quickly desert.
    (Quickly = 1 turn :D, or 0 to avoid the stack just for combats)

    This limitation is not a limitation as number on the map, but you will no longer see T4 stack.
    (In fact, i’m not sure this is enought… lest the idea growth…),

    #80809

    thabob79
    Member

    I still think making em take 2 army slot is a good way… not that i have trouble with t4 up to now tho.

    #80842

    Athei
    Member

    Limiting the T4 units to one per stack is a pretty good idea to me, because it isn’t just about how difficult is to play against T4 units. It isn’t really, you just have to spam them yourself – and that’s where the problem lies (to me at least). Because late game (60+ turns, maybe that’s changed with 1.09 patch, will see…) you almost can’t find other units on map beside heroes and T4 units (they are extinct, trampled underfoot by hordes of T4s!)
    And I don’t have to tell you how boring it is when you play dreadnought and the last surviving AI is… dreadnought! Bunch of landships against other landships, turn and turn again…

    So yeah, limiting them 1 per stack is great thing in my book! I have no idea if that is doable by the devs, but still as an Idea it is great!

    #80860

    Read The Sticky!

    Dev-remark(s):
    – We will add a new city upgrade that a city must have before it can produce tier 4 units.
    – Dragon breath weapons and Fire Mortar (landship) will start each battle on cooldown
    – There will be targeted nerfs on each tier 4 unit, precise details to be decided

    Tombles said in another thread that the building takes 500 production (e.g. 400g,100 mana) to build.

    I doubt the devs will consider making any more changes to T4s until the above ones have been tested in the next beta patch.

    #80874

    tektolnes
    Member

    I feel your pain Athei. I recently made a post suggesting to just disable all tier 4 in the game until the t4 spamming gets resolved. It is obviously extreme but it is also true that t4 just kills the game right now.

    I would be in favor of any immediate solution so that I would never again have to race for T4 and just spam endless stacks of the same t4 unit to fight the AI’s stacks of the same t4 unit.

    The reason it seems so outrageous is because the game is so awesome in other respects. I think t3 spam would be nowhere near as bad as t4 (since t3 tend to lack godlike aoe abilities and over the top damage mitigations.

    However, colonel panic’s dev quote also seems like a reasonable approach. It won’t solve the problem (pay 500 gold for the building, then spam t4 again. Especially since the AI will be getting the building for free on turn 30 or so 😀 ).

    Overall, I have some confidence that T4 spamming will get fixed, even if it takes some time, we will end up with an awesome game in which all four tiers maintain some significance throughout the game.

    #80877

    DaveWilma
    Member

    Can someone explain what “there will be targeted nerfs on each tier 4 unit” means… 😉

    Regards,
    DaveWilma.

    #80899

    leraban
    Member

    For those complaining about how weak t1s are, in the Age of Wonders series they never before have been so strong.

    I kid you not when I say that I find AoW3s Archon titants compareably weaker than AoW1+2s Ork warlord.

    #80931

    vota dc
    Member

    Aow 1 titan was tier 3 but had unlimited retaliation and first strike.

    #80936

    leraban
    Member

    Aow 1 titan was tier 3 but had unlimited retaliation and first strike.

    I know why I specified AoW3 titan

    #85551

    Sunicle
    Member

    I haven’t read all threads about curbing t4 spam, but has this suggestion been made?:

    Cool-down for city after having produced a t4 unit: city cannot produce another t4 unit straight away (but anything else it can). This may already start with t3, with a shorter cool-down period.

    I believe this is logical; t4 units are top performers, no society just produces top engineers, top doctors and Champions League footballers on the conveyor belt, there will be regular minions as well. A cool-down period for high-tier units would reflect this.

    I’m not sure there should be a rush production for units. Talent needs to be nurtured, not rushed. Realistically rushing would go at the cost of the unit’s performance.
    For building rushing the current effects are realistic, but not for rushing units. I’ve read a post (can’t trace anymore) of someone just going straight for t4, ignoring everything else, and just rushing them out. That’s the kind of gameplay that needs tackling. A new beta patch – 1.092 I think it’s called – introduces a new prerequisite building, this is good, but might just delay t4 spam.

    #85573

    Callynn
    Member

    +1

    Please implement this I’m tired of this mass T4 spam that makes all other tiers useless =(

    A max tech limit is also a cool suggestion, I enjoy tier2 battles the most so far – though heroes might become vastly overpowered 🙂

    #85578

    vyolin
    Member

    I disagree with any artificial limits on unit production – if such a thing is needed it just shows there is a serious imbalance present.
    Considering rushing units: Apart from having rush penalties in terms of morale stack in addition to the current ineffectual extension of the duration to 10 turns again there is another thing that could be done in regards to unit production rushing: Rush-produced units do not get any additional ranks from upgrades and buildings.

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