The Necromancer

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions The Necromancer

This topic contains 31 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Gloweye 5 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #115620

    Gloweye
    Member

    A lot of people – more than i dared expect – expressed their support for a necromancer class. I believe that even if the dev’s weren’t planning this for an expansion, they will be reconsidering after this overwhelming support. therfore, I want to contribute my ideas – They might be able to use a comma, letter, or even a spell effect.

    The Necromancer, the name being a slight hint, uses undead as his main army, and a significant part of his tech tree either creates, sustains, buffs or otherwise supports them. Here, I’m considering an introducement of the Death Damage type. I’ve always liked it, and I still believe Cold just doesn’t always fit. If you believe it does, feel free to replace all Death protections with cold ones. The Undead ability will grant 100% Death protection. Dire Pinguins will get 100% Protection too.

    Inside the tech tree, some references will be made to more common things that I will first summerize here;

    Class structures:
    Necromancer Circle
    Hall of the Dead (+10 Mana income)
    Mausoleum (+10 Mana income, +1 Medal Rank for Undead raised/build in this city’s domain)

    Past Battlefield:
    After every battle, there will be left a marker on the adventure map for 5 days, visible to all players. they can view which units have perished at the battle that took place at this site. The Past Battlefield marker will disappear after 5 turns.

    Skeleton Warrior:
    Tier 1 basic class unit. 8 Def, 8 Resist, 10 Phys dam 40 HP. Inherent Traits: Undead, Projectile resistance, Infantry, Magical Orgin, Shield.
    Raised from: Infantry, Irregulars, Cavalry

    Skeleton Archer
    Tier 1 basic class unit. 8 Def, 8 Resist, 6 Phys dam 30 HP, Shoot bow. Inherent Traits: Undead, Projectile resistance, Infantry, Magical Orgin.
    Raised from: Archers, Supports

    Both Skeletons can only be raised from corpses of humanoid(playable) races. Aside from inherent traits, they will also recieve the race of the corpse they were made from. So a Orc Skeleton will have higher HP, melee damage and reduced resistance and ranged damage. Elf skeletons archers will have shoot longbow, and goblins will shoot musquito’s.

    Ghost
    Tier 2 basic unit. 10 Def, 10 Resist, 10 Phys 2 Death melee damage. Inherent Traits: Incorporeal, 60% Death Resistance, Magical Orgin, Infantry?

    Tech Tree:

    Unit Chain:

    Raise Dead
    10 CP. Raises a skeleton from a corpse, and will bestow it with +5 HP and Combat summon, which will destroy it after combat.
    Units Raised by Raise death cannot later be affected by animate dead.

    Animate dead
    Animate dead unlocks both a combat version and adventure map version.
    Combat Version:
    15 CP. Permanently raises a skeleton from target corpse. The Unit gains the summoned trait, stays after combat. The upkeep will cost mana.
    Adventure map version:
    15 CP. casting the spell opens the Past Battlefield marker, and will you to animate a creature, or you can select multiple creatures to animate multiple skeletons – for 15 CP each.

    Animate Ghost
    40 CP. Animates a ghost from a Tier 2/3 Humanoid. Like Animate dead, can be cast both inside or outside combat, the adventure version allows you to cast it even if you dont have 40 CP max yet.

    Produce Vampire
    Allows you to produce racial Vampires at the Necromancer Circle.
    [Race] Vampire(Female of course, cause im not…)
    Tier 3, 10 Def, 9 Resist. Melee Strike 9 Phys, 3 Death. Innate Abilities: Seduce, Drain(15 Phys, 10 Death), Life Steal, Undead, Wall Climbing, Irregular, Forest/Urban Concealment. 40% Fire Weakness. Medal Veteran: Inflict Cursed. Medal Elite: Pass Wall, Invisibility

    This is basically a T3 Irregular, first of its kind. The melee potential combined with seduce makes it a necessarily a Tier 3. The Idea is seduce, combined with a lot of burst damage. Drain is basically a single touch attack that restores the Vampire’s HP with 10, while dealing some significant damage. Life Steal help recharging the HP that doesn’t regenerate naturally, while wall climbing just feel natural, as well at the concealments. At veteran, their very touch will curse lesser beings. Because of their Innate death damage, this will hit for hard. On Gold, they have become masters of stealth so far they can hide anywhere, and climbing walls is to easy to be considered a sport – not harder than flat land.

    Produce Necromantic Adept
    Allows you to produce racial Necromantic Adepts at the Hall of the Dead.
    [race] Necromantic Adept
    Tier 3, 9 Def, 11 Resist, Melee Strike 7 Phys + 3 Death, Innate Abilities: Death bolts, Heal Undead, Turn Undead, Raise Dead, Support., Death Resistance 60% MedalVeteran: Power of the Dead, Death Resistance +20% MedalElite: Control Undead, Death Resistance +20%(Immunity).

    First of all, the Necromantic Adept is a unit that can heal your undead, and his mastery allows him to turn them to. At Veteran Medal, he gains the ability to use Power of the Undead, a once-per-combat buff for any friendly undead unit giving +2 death damage to all attacks, and +2 resistance. At Elite rank, he gains Control Undead, greatly amplyfying his power and recruitment potential against other necromancers and all archons. His raise dead starts out as the temporary combat summon variant, but this can change with an empire upgrade.

    Animate Bone Horror
    Available only as adventure spell. 200 CP: choose a number of corpses from a pile with a combined tier of 6 or more. Animates a Bone Horror, the ultimate abomination.
    Bone Horror:
    Tier 4, Melee: 18 Phys + 5 Death. Def 14 Resist 14 HP 110, Move 36. Wall Crushing, Projectile resistance, Undead, Magical Orgin, Mind Control Immunity, Inflict Cursed. MedalTrooper: Unholy Champion, Medal Veteran: Regeneration. Medal Expert: Holy Champion. Medal Elite: Death Aura.

    Basically, a big heap of bones containing a big heap of brute strength. Death Aura fits right beside Fire/Frost Aura, dealing 5 Death damage to melee attackers. Regeneration is granted for sentimental reasons(They had it in every earlier installment), and because it fits in my opinion. Also, the champion abilities act to lessen the hard-counter that theocrat will form to massed undead – both by spirit damage vs 40% weakness and by Holy Champion Party hero abilities.

    Well, that’s the units. Now the Spells:

    Combat Spells:
    (Unit spells are not listed; they are listed in the units section)

    Mend Undead(I): 12 CP
    restores 25 HP to target Undead unit.

    Death Ray(I): 8 CP
    Deals 15 Death Damage

    March of the Dead(III):(Battle field enchant) 15 CP
    Undead units on the battlefield gain +1 death strength on melee attack.

    Mass Curse(IV)
    Already exists. Just think it fits with Necro. Should stay in treasure sites though. Can’t see why not. (curses all enemy units on the battlefield, inflicting -2 Def and -2 Res)

    Necromancer’s Wrath:
    Deals 20 Death Damage to all units on the battlefield. (Undead and Dire Pinguins have death immunity, as have Elite Necromancers and a hero with the right items)

    Mass Animation(VI): 50 CP
    Instantly Reanimate all corpses on the battlefield as skeletons for the duration of the battle(Combat Summon). Only creatures that can be animated as skeletons are affected(So only Irregulars, Supports, Archers and Infantry).

    Death Mastery(VII): 70 CP
    All Friendly Undead gain 3 Death Damage on all attacks, and gain Death Aura, dealing 5 death damage to all melee attackers. At the beginning of each round, all friendly undead are healed for 5 Health.

    Strategic spells:
    (Unit generation spells are not listed; instead they are in the units section)

    Marked for Death(I):
    Target party becomes damned for 3 turns, disabling natural regeneration and inflicting 20% death weakness.

    A minor spell, but one that will be a huge boon by enabling your major damage type to harm basically everything, even though Dire Piguins will still have that 80% Protection left.

    Soul Harvest: (II)(Upkeep 10 mana)
    Killing enemies grants 3/6/9/12 Mana.(15 for heroes)(Does not work on machines and undead.)

    Word of Power: Dur (II):(upkeep 15 mana)
    Protects target friendly city with death magic, causing all enemy units in it’s domain to become cursed and stops them from regenerating hit points.

    Touch of the Necromancer(III):(25 CP)
    Heals all undead units in target stack for 10-15 Health

    Animate Hero(III):(50 CP)
    Easier to aquire than resurrect hero, and harder to cast, it offers an alternative. You can only Animate your own heroes, but you can choose the target, and the target will gain Undead, Life Steal, and Death Aura.

    Word of Power: Zol (IV):(Upkeep 25 Mana)
    Enemies dying in the domain of target friendly city are animated as Skeletons or Ghosts bound to that city. They are not under your control, instead they roam the domain as independents allied to you, attacking all your enemies they can reach. They act as though they have True Sight, and when facing Very Likely Defeat battle odds, they will stand near your city, and aid you in battle if you get attacked. They will remain for 2 turns after disjunction of Word of Power:Zol. If it is recast in time, they will remain.

    Dawn of the Undying(V): Global enchantment, 40 mana upkeep.
    All undead under your control lose Cannot Regenerate.
    (Must be the first global enchantment that removes your own unit’s abilities)

    Thirst for the Living(VII) Global enchantment, 600 CP, 80 mana upkeep
    Undead units you control gain Life Steal and Tireless.

    Empire Upgrades:

    Necromancy(I-VII)
    Increase casting points by 10

    Uncomplaining Laborers(II):
    All treasure sites in your domain produce 20% more of whatever they produce.

    Necromantic Learning(II):
    Supports you build gain Throw Curse.

    Stable Reanimation(IV):
    Undead require 25% less mana upkeep.

    Necromantic Schooling(V):
    Supports gain Heal Undead and Turn Undead

    Necromantic Research(VI):
    Necromantic Adepts gain Animate corpse instead of Raise dead, causing units animated by them to last beyond combat.

    Hero Upgrades(Some):

    Lvl 3:
    Heal Undead
    Party 20% death protection

    lvl 5:
    Party +1 Death damage

    lvl 7:
    Control Undead
    Animate Skeleton(Permanent version, touch range)
    party 20% Spirit protection

    lvl 9:
    Fearsome(hero buff…)
    Party: 1 resistance

    lvl 11:
    Animate Ghost(Permanent version, touch range)
    Avatars of Death(Party: Death Aura)

    This is my suggestion. Im sure lots of you guys will have own ideas, improvement and, undoubtlessly, critique. I believe that, if given adequate costs, this class will be balanced. While lacking a clear scout unit, they can easily create some expendable units to explore their surroundings. They can easily raise a small army early, limited mostly by mana income. This will enable them to capture their gold mines etc, replacing their losses with the corpses of the defenders. while expanding, mana income will remain a problem, altough migitated by Soul Harvest and Stable Animation, and slightly lessened in effect because their higher class buildings generate mana. it will, however leave them wanting on the mana side.

    Once mana generation really starts picking up, its the casting points that are missing. In this stage, you’ll get necromancers raising permanent skeletons, and heroes in battle pumping out ghosts. Coupled with vamps and class units being generated in cities, this will enable you to increase your armies the fastest of all classes, even though your average unit Tier will likely be a bit lower than theirs.

    #115623

    Ravenholme
    Member

    I’m pretty sure that they won’t be adding a Death damage channel in Age of Wonders 3, Blight and it’s association with the Destruction sphere seems to be it. Going by the Archon Revenants, Necromancer undead would get probably a dual channel in Frost and Blight (The former giving a class, finally, who utilises Frost damage so going some way with the also likely inclusion of Frostlings to ending the fact that Frost is so underused)

    Otherwise I generally agree, but I do think that the Skeletons etc should be produceable in the cities as well, to represent the gifted underlings of the Necromancer leader raising the corpses of the dead of the city.

    I also think that Vampires should be a Racial unit, rather than their own Race. A vampire is only effective if it can blend in with its victims, so it would make sense for it simply to be the vampires of that race coming out of hiding because they perceive a Necromancer as more tolerant of them, and thus pledging fealty to him.

    So it’d be a Vampire-like visage for all the extant races (Depends what route you want to go with them, but I guess paler than ordinary members of that race, visible fangs, maybe glowing eyes)

    #115628

    Gloweye
    Member

    Didn’t I make that clear? of course vampires are of the race of the city they are produced in.

    And while I like death damage, i actually dont really believe its gonna come. After all, you’d need to change Dire Piguins to have a triple channel damage(Phys/Cold/Death), or give them a melee attack without physical(Death/Cold).

    However, just subsitute cold for death and read on.

    #115633

    I actually think Necromancer is pretty much set in stone for a future expansion (has been since before the game was released most likely). It’s just that it wasn’t planned for this particular add-on.

    I can’t be 100% sure of course but I’d be really surprised if the Necro didn’t make an appearance eventually.

    #115636

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Didn’t I make that clear? of course vampires are of the race of the city they are produced in.

    And while I like death damage, i actually dont really believe its gonna come. After all, you’d need to change Dire Piguins to have a triple channel damage(Phys/Cold/Death), or give them a melee attack without physical(Death/Cold).

    However, just subsitute cold for death and read on.

    Ah, I do apologise, I misunderstood when you said “Race: Vampire” to mean that it would be a distinct race of Nosferatu-like humanoid vampires, not that it was a Racial Vampire unit.

    That’s my fault, sorry.

    #115838

    FiReFTW
    Member

    Why don’t people want a specific undead race aswell? With only undead creatures. I mean sure necromancer is fine but his whole army still won’t be undead.

    #115856

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Why don’t people want a specific undead race aswell? With only undead creatures. I mean sure necromancer is fine but his whole army still won’t be undead.

    Let me cross-post from the Expansion announcement topic

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>BLOODYBATTLEBRAIN wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Elathan wrote:</div><br>
    If we have a necromancer class, we should have a playable undead race as well ; )

    Well surely a Necromancer would make Undead out of any race, so there wouldn’t be an Undead race, surely?

    My thoughts precisely.

    Undead are not a race, they are the living dead of all the other races, so not only is an Undead race thematically somewhat bizarre, it is completed obsoleted by a Necromancer class unit, who can draw upon the undead forms of everyone he conquers. Even the more extravagant forms of undead, other than walking corpses and skeletons, such as the Vampires etc shouldn’t be a distinct race, but simply an affliction/dead form of all the extant races.

    #115887

    Gloweye
    Member

    Indead. an Undead once was a human/elf/orc/goblin/draconian/dwarf/halfling, but now he’s undead. So if I have a Orc undead, you betcha its bones are a bit sturdier, because orcs have more health. this will make his undead form also have more health. Thats why I introduced the aforementioned mechanic that undead will keep their race.

    #115959

    terrahero
    Member

    I would personally like to focus more on corporeal undead then Ghost, and if we go the route of Ghosts we have Wraiths i suppose.
    It is also suppose to do something with its class units that isnt standard for all races already.

    Skeletal Archers sounds fun, but it will compete in every single race with the racial Archer-type. Either it itself is redundant, or the racial unit is redundant. Similar with Skeletal Swordsman.

    My ideal setup would be where your racial tier1 infantry, archer and Pikeman simply get replaced by an Undead version.
    It would be optional, activated through a city upgrade or a city spell, because you might not want to do it to all your settlements.

    But units largely retain their original idea. There would be new art for the unit, and some stats change. For example it gains the Undead tag, and new sets of resistances and weakness. Might also toss in a mana-cost addition.
    But a Dwarven city would produce Undead Dwarven Crossbowman, and a High-elf city Undead HE Longbowman.
    All in addition to the class units themselves, such as the iconic Bone Horror. As i said, its what i would love to see, not saying its realistic.

    More realistically speaking, we’d see 6 class units, and we wouldnt see units that just directly compete with their counterpart on every race. If a skeletal archer is a class unit, every race has an archer aswell. Either the Skeleton isnt worth it, or the racial unit.
    This doesnt creature synergy or choice, it creates exclusion.

    One also needs to be careful with “raising the dead” as a general mechanic. As cool as it is, its also prone to serious imbalance if every battle won just means you turn your killed opponents into even more units to use against your opponent. As much as it would fit thematically, and i believe this is the reason why previous AoW games never went much down the route of raising enemy corpses into a permanent unit for your side.

    I will say this, i hope the emphasis is on corporeal undead. Not a big fan of Ghosts, when we already have Wraiths and King Wraiths. And possibly Death incarnate.
    Bone Horror was cool, but perhaps something a bit more “patched together” would be cool aswell.

    #115964

    As cool as it is, its also prone to serious imbalance if every battle won just means you turn your killed opponents into even more units to use against your opponen

    Unless those raised units had a mana cost attached, e.g. mana maintenance, or simply deteriorated a bit every turn.

    Recruited units are the ones where the Necromancy spells etc have been observed properly, so they wouldn’t deteriorate…

    #115970

    Gloweye
    Member

    Bone Horror is patched together, as in that it uses multiple corpses.

    Basically, the raise skeleton units are in addition to racial units. They are not exclusive, as the economies to sustain them are compeletely seperate from each other. This will enable the Necromancer to basically drown his enemy in his units. However, these are all relatively low power, raising some random undead where other classes summon T3’s. I think his mayor weakness will be when he runs out of corpses – once the map has been cleared of independants, he needs to kill units from enemy players to replenish his forces.

    The only class units needing race skins would be Vampire and Necromantic Adepts. the skeletons/ghosts could all use the same art, and just get the race bestowed upon them. Would also take it easily on the art department.

    basically, the ghost is your class T2 unit, not intended to be massed the way you can mass skeletons.

    #115975

    FiReFTW
    Member

    So if the necromancer would have a human race, the humans would all be undead? There would be no swordsman or knights but rather undead versions? well that sounds good then.

    #115979

    Gloweye
    Member

    not as far as I thought…The Skeletons would be class units, you’d still have just as much access to racial units as any other class has. However, these class units simply come into being as a conditional summon instead of being build. Those conditions IMO are a good enough reason to give them the CP costs i gave – those are around half the CP a sorcerer pays.

    #116004

    Leyrann
    Member

    Basically, it’s like this:

    In your city (lets use High Elf in this example), you build HE Swordsmen, HE Longbowmen, etc who all cost gold upkeep.
    Then, you go to battle with them, getting a Gold Mine that’s about to be covered by your domain. You kill the two Orc Impalers and the Orc Razorbow that guarded it, and revive them all: The Orc Impalers become Orc Skeletal Infantry and the Orc Razorbow becomes Orc Skeletal Archer, and those three cost mana upkeep. You can’t build undead units (at least not these, it’s not my idea, so I’m not up to all the details) in your cities.

    Two important things: CAN YOU ANIMATE OWN NON-UNDEAD UNITS THAT DIED, and CAN YOU USE ANIMATE HERO ON THE SAME HERO MORE THAN ONCE?

    #116015

    Gloweye
    Member

    thats exactly the plan. you can also animate your own units, and i dont see why you couln’t animate the same hero twice – your can resurrect them multiple times after all. Just no resurrection after they’ve been animated.

    #116047

    Ravenholme
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>terrahero wrote:</div>
    As cool as it is, its also prone to serious imbalance if every battle won just means you turn your killed opponents into even more units to use against your opponen

    Unless those raised units had a mana cost attached, e.g. mana maintenance, or simply deteriorated a bit every turn.

    Recruited units are the ones where the Necromancy spells etc have been observed properly, so they wouldn’t deteriorate…

    Mana cost is how I would do it, after all, the Necromancer is having to maintain and animate those dead he raised. It would make the Necro an actual hybrid class in a way that really makes sense. He can create more stable undead at his cities, where his adepts can invest time into crafting and raising them, or he can throw together some on the battlefield at a large constant cost of mana.

    #116055

    Gloweye
    Member

    Mana upkeep cost was indeed supposed to be the way to keep these armies in check. also, the skeletons as described in my orginal post are slightly weaker than their racial equivilents – they are there to swarm the enemy, not to stick around till late game. I dont know how many will start building shrine/temple when support gets pushed back, but necro is gonna be the most mana-hungry class of them all, especially early game.

    #116083

    terrahero
    Member

    Another thing that had me thinking was if this is a good oppertunity to introduce a “new” way of Undeadness.

    If we go down the traditional route, we end up with Undead that are immune to blight, resistant to cold and weak to Spirit.
    First off, there are already a lot of blight resistant or immune units in the game. Its sort of a problem in and of itself without dumping another batch of units on this pile.
    And i really wouldnt like going up against a Theocrat with those kind of Undead. With spirit damage, and specific counter-skills like Turn Undead, Theocrat would have a field day against a spirit vulnerable army.

    Now i am no lore buff. But i understand the current undead, the Archon undead, are evil spirits having possesed the Archon bodies left behind.
    And in the previous AoW games, Undead was also an inherently evil race, where evil and unholy forces, brought these bodies into animation.

    This is a chance to step away from this, and maybe even much needed if Necromancer is to be a neutral class like all the others.
    We could have a new kind of Undead, where not through evil forces and dark spirits taking possesion a body is animated.

    Instead, its the deceased who volunteered (or forced, if you want to be an evil necro) their soul that are infused into the corpses. Which tie them much closer to their corporeal bodies.

    A new way of Necromancy that does not neccesarily calls upon unholy arts, that produces something closer living than the traditional Undead. Which as a result means these Undead do not share the same weakness to Spirit damage, but also dont enjoy all the perks such as being immune to Blight.

    #116088

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Terrahero – Undead have already been established as being ‘weak’ to the Theocrat, in the lore descriptions of several of the Theocrats units (I think the Evangelist and something else both reference them kicking the butts of Necromancers).

    However, I wouldn’t go Blight Immune, merely blight resistant. Because as gets bandied around a lot, Blight represents other things beyond poison. Acid would corrode and decay the bodies of undead, and other corrupting factors might speed up their decay. Blight resistance of 50 or 60% would be more than adequate to represent the fact that they are immune to the poison effects of Blight damage, but not the others.

    Unless it is spirt-based undead (Ghosts and the like), which I would declare immune to blight.

    #116097

    terrahero
    Member

    That is the lore upto this point. As i said, a new way of Undead thats different from the kind of Undead we’ve seen upto this point, which has always been inherently evil.
    And Theocrat still holds some toys over Undead, its not like they are getting off completely. Turn Undead and Control Undead, for example, is still a thing.

    #116117

    JPoll
    Member

    Sounds like there are some cool ideas in this thread. When provided with enough mana, undead could probably become the perfect rush class, I imagine. Depends on the cost of casting points to raise some slain indi to an undead.

    #116127

    Gloweye
    Member

    Either pray you dont get to see theocrats, attempt to rush them, or rush to Bone Horrors…They get some intresting medals that work against devout units..(Holy+Unholy Champion). Maybe Necromancer Adepts could also get these dependent on the players alignment…

    #116151

    Taykor
    Member

    So it’d be a Vampire-like visage for all the extant races (Depends what route you want to go with them, but I guess paler than ordinary members of that race, visible fangs, maybe glowing eyes)

    And I very much hope they won’t make them squishy non-combat seduce units again. It was indescribably lame in AoW2.

    #116157

    I actually did not follow the necromancer discussion too closely as I do not quite understand the hype (I liked the undead but not that much that I would need to see them back) and I am actually quite content with the archons as undead.

    But I just came up with a new idea of how to implement it (unless it was posted elsewhere already). I also posted this in the new poll thread (http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/poll-for-next-aow3-expansion/).

    How about a Nekromancer specalisation instead of class?
    this would solve the good/evil problem as we already have alignment associated specialisations. In addition I can clearly imagine it to merge perfectly with almost all classes, except maybe the archdruid but i would be fine to make it a forbidden specialisation for this class.
    And it would allow a step-by-step conversion of your empire into an undead realm by choosing the right skills to research.

    Possible skills: transform city to undead, raise dead on the battle field, no absorption time for undead cities and dwellings, call of the dead (undead dwellings owned by non nekromancers change sides when your hero enters their domain)

    #116162

    Gloweye
    Member

    I dont think it would really be enough undead for me and maybe a couple others.

    call of the dead (undead dwellings owned by non nekromancers change sides when your hero enters their domain)

    really? talking about OP..

    #116195

    really? talking about OP..

    well you are probably right with that. then maybe increased chance of rebellion? or some militia troops joining the attacker in this special case (3 level1 or so).

    I dont think it would really be enough undead for me

    Sorry to hear that. I think it would be a near perfect solution for some problems connected to this class idea including the difficulty of implementation of a “not alignment changing class”. Especially combined with the “start as dwelling”-option (see poll thread) it might turn out as nice necromancer experience.

    #116199

    Thats why I introduced the aforementioned mechanic that undead will keep their race.

    Skeletal Archers sounds fun, but it will compete in every single race with the racial Archer-type. Either it itself is redundant, or the racial unit is redundant. Similar with Skeletal Swordsman.

    possible remedy for this: if you research an undead class/specialisation unit then it will replace the specific racial unit in all cities with a nekromancer circle. in that case the player would be forced to use more undead (unless he conqueres cities without a circle). of course the city and units would keep their race!

    #116353

    Gloweye
    Member

    I still dont like the option of your class choice disabling you to build racial units. It just goes against the general idea of this game. Integrating your class and racial units and making the best combinations is one of the main things this game is about. Try Elf Mounted archers with Orcs black knights for example. This is just a minor example, there are loads of better combinations. There would be no fun if a class disabled your racial units, or to be forced to use undead when I dont want to.

    Its also completely beside the point. the very idea of a necromancer class is, to me, the fact that you will have access to the largest number of forces total, regardless whether they are living or undead.

    #116398

    Ravenholme
    Member

    I still dont like the option of your class choice disabling you to build racial units. It just goes against the general idea of this game. Integrating your class and racial units and making the best combinations is one of the main things this game is about. Try Elf Mounted archers with Orcs black knights for example. This is just a minor example, there are loads of better combinations. There would be no fun if a class disabled your racial units, or to be forced to use undead when I dont want to.

    Its also completely beside the point. the very idea of a necromancer class is, to me, the fact that you will have access to the largest number of forces total, regardless whether they are living or undead.

    Agreed.

    #116419

    Draxynnic
    Member

    One note on the skeleton archers thing:

    Depending on race, skeleton archers might avoid redundancy by being a form of regular, purely physical archer for races that don’t have them. So they’d likely be redundant for races with relatively traditional archers (humans, elves, arguably orcs) but races such as dwarfs and draconians might regard them as worthwhile.

    I’m ambivalent, however, on whether this actually makes them worth putting in.

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