The New Specializations: Which Is Best?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions The New Specializations: Which Is Best?

This topic contains 38 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  Epaminondas 7 years ago.

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  • #185386

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Assuming you are taking things to Mastery levels, which Specialization do you guys like best? In particular, I am interested in what you guys think regarding the two sets of commensurate spells: 1) Scales of Fortune (x2 critical damage chance), Spiritual Freedom (can grant any of the following randomly: 2 Fire melee damage, 2 Spirit melee damage, 3 Physical melee damage, 1 Resistance, or 2 Defense), Embrace Darkness (Life Steal); and 2) Summon Chthonic Guardian, Summon Arch Angel, Summon Fallen Angel.

    Of course, your preferences may change depending on the race and/or class you play, and I’d like to hear that, too.

    #185387

    Brandon_354
    Member

    Assuming you are taking things to Mastery levels, which Specialization do you guys like best? In particular, I am interested in what you guys think regarding the two sets of commensurate spells: 1) Scales of Fortune (x2 critical damage chance), Spiritual Freedom (can grant any of the following randomly: 2 Fire melee damage, 2 Spirit melee damage, 3 Physical melee damage, 1 Resistance, or 2 Defense), Embrace Darkness (Life Steal); and 2) Summon Chthonic Guardian, Summon Arch Angel, Summon Fallen Angel.

    Of course, your preferences may change depending on the race and/or class you play, and I’d like to hear that, too.

    I’m not sure about mastery but adept feels like grey guard by far. The other specializations require master to get a spell to boost all units dedicated to x while grey guard gets theirs at adept and they have the upgrade to get more casting points by killing things such as fey and undead. Cardinal culling is nothing to scoff at either.

    #185417

    An interesting question. Here is what I think.

    1). Scales of Fortune: A blessing and a curse. The blessing is that the ability is quite strong: good criticals can already turn battles, and twice as many is just excellent. The downside is that this is entirely dependent on outside circumstances (terrain, wins and losses, morality alignment, starting race, etc). If you mess up some of those, or are just caught in bad terrain, you do not get the benefit of the ability at all.

    Alignment is particularly key, and is the biggest balancing factor for the Grey guard. A Keeper or Shadowborn can get pure alignments, which allows their subjects to forgive the occasional ruthlessness/mercy. A grey guard, on the other hand, has only 200 points to spare in either direction in the best of circumstances. Two wars and a guard the wrong way, or too many vassals, and all those criticals are meaningless as your people are grumpy.

    That is especially bad for the undead, who do suffer alignment penalties, but have few ways to boost morale. Undead Grey Guard is an interesting proposition: you get some very useful skills, the shield of dispassion grants dedicated to neutral units magic armor (+2 def, +1 res) to non flanking attacks, which helps the ghoul penalty. On the other hand, the consume the essence spell is more of a mixed bag: it is a heal that works on all your units, but also takes up corpses you could do other things with.

    I personally still like it, as you only need one corpse for the heal to trigger. At the other end is the fire and spirit damage to all units one, which could mess with your own troops.

    To summarize, a good spell for Theocrats, Dreadnoughts, Warlords, Rogues, AD, Halflings, or anyone that can boost morale well. It also is a great boost with total awareness, since the magic armor always applies to an unflankable unit.

    2). Spiritual Freedom. This is a sort of more grab bag type ability, but has some key strengths vs. the other things. The first is that it is a tactical choice: you the player can chose when (or even if) to use it. Rouges and AD (or those with the heroes) are highly useful, as you can meditate and take advantage of it in the same turn.

    It also tends to scale with army size. If you have a lot of meditating units, then you are more likely to get something excellent on the right unit. It also makes it difficult for the enemy to get rid of all the individual enchantments. You also gain experience, like for any other active ability, so that can allow leveling advantages.

    When combined with Torchbearers Creed and Shield of light, you can get large quantities of spirit damage and defense on things.

    The obvious answer of Theocrats liking works (especially since Shrines can become dedicated to good now), but Necromancers love it almost as much (if not more). Spirit damage works with despair, the defense helps ghouls, and shield of light rips up other undead. The Archangels also get heal undead as supports, so they can do that and heal themselves with normal heal, even if not ghouled. Goblins also benefit, as do draconians. It is actually a very good thing for Rogue units, as they tend to be relatively squishy and vulnerable to brute force: 2 straight defense helps with that.

    If you can get Golden Dragons with this alignment, well, that unit is the awesomeness. I especially like paring a meditating Golden Dragon (hopefully someones band) with An Archdruid hero or leader, as that removes the frost weakness and lets them meditate/attack in one turn.

    I’ll answer the rest tomorrow, as sleep beckons.

    #185450

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    I’ve only played the specializations in single player but, I like them all best depending on the build.

    Grey Guard Master on Dwarf Warlord; the Dwarf Champion race upgrade let’s Firstborn give a moral boost to other units (on top of The Draft), this works well with Scales of Fortune, and defensive strike works well with Shield of Dispassion. Not to mention Grey Guard has a lot of goodies to deal with classes that use a lot of summons / undead or spam the same units, which let’s you deal with Sorcerers, Necromancers and Rogues.

    I like the Keeper of the Peace Master on my Draconian Rogue, especially end game. You’ll get Draconian Flyers with 3 extra damage channels out the gate (poison from Poison Knowledge and maybe Age of Deception, spirit from the Keeper upgrades, and fire from Draconian racial V). The Keeper upgrades also provide it with more defense, which I think they kind of need. They’ll get backstab and possibly martial arts on top and producing them in a city with a Dungeon isn’t that hard. Get them in a stack with a Sorcerer hero and get lightning on top, hyper mobile strike forces everywhere. Courtesan Ambassadors works well with the Keeper spec, and the T4 Arch Angel has Healing, something a Draconian Rogue otherwise lacks, get an Arch Angel with a stack of Flyers and they’ll heal back in no time, mix in some Succubi if you want and boy you’ve got a stew going.

    Shadowborn Master on my Orc Theocrat. Lifestealing on Crusaders and Exalted (but especially Crusaders) is brutal. That is all. You don’t really need anything more than that, but Entwined by Shadows gives +1 resistance and in that way offsets the Orc Weakness. It gives 20% spirit protection on top, which in turn makes Orc Shocktroopers have +1 resitance and 40% spirit protection (20% from the Theocrat upgrade) out the gate (and +2 lightning damage). Casting Gift of Nekron at the right time can also work miracles for heavy-hitting troops. Basically what Shadowborn Master does to Orc Theocrat is it allows you to not having to set up with Martyrs or Touch of Faith. You can just go in and smash things, it’s all incredibly brutal and smooth.

    #185632

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I’m not sure about mastery but adept feels like grey guard by far. The other specializations require master to get a spell to boost all units dedicated to x while grey guard gets theirs at adept and they have the upgrade to get more casting points by killing things such as fey and undead. Cardinal culling is nothing to scoff at either.

    I agree that Grey Guard Adept is clearly superior to the other two if you are only taking Adept level Specialization. But the question is Adept and Mastery combined – which I feel is a lot harder question. Also, within just Adept context, how would you compare the three spells that enhance the troops produced in a city – Scales of Fortune, Spiritual Freedom, and Embrace Darkness?

    An interesting question. Here is what I think.

    1). Scales of Fortune: A blessing and a curse. The blessing is that the ability is quite strong: good criticals can already turn battles, and twice as many is just excellent. The downside is that this is entirely dependent on outside circumstances (terrain, wins and losses, morality alignment, starting race, etc). If you mess up some of those, or are just caught in bad terrain, you do not get the benefit of the ability at all.

    Alignment is particularly key, and is the biggest balancing factor for the Grey guard. A Keeper or Shadowborn can get pure alignments, which allows their subjects to forgive the occasional ruthlessness/mercy. A grey guard, on the other hand, has only 200 points to spare in either direction in the best of circumstances. Two wars and a guard the wrong way, or too many vassals, and all those criticals are meaningless as your people are grumpy.

    That is especially bad for the undead, who do suffer alignment penalties, but have few ways to boost morale. Undead Grey Guard is an interesting proposition: you get some very useful skills, the shield of dispassion grants dedicated to neutral units magic armor (+2 def, +1 res) to non flanking attacks, which helps the ghoul penalty. On the other hand, the consume the essence spell is more of a mixed bag: it is a heal that works on all your units, but also takes up corpses you could do other things with.

    I personally still like it, as you only need one corpse for the heal to trigger. At the other end is the fire and spirit damage to all units one, which could mess with your own troops.

    To summarize, a good spell for Theocrats, Dreadnoughts, Warlords, Rogues, AD, Halflings, or anyone that can boost morale well. It also is a great boost with total awareness, since the magic armor always applies to an unflankable unit.

    2). Spiritual Freedom. This is a sort of more grab bag type ability, but has some key strengths vs. the other things. The first is that it is a tactical choice: you the player can chose when (or even if) to use it. Rouges and AD (or those with the heroes) are highly useful, as you can meditate and take advantage of it in the same turn.

    It also tends to scale with army size. If you have a lot of meditating units, then you are more likely to get something excellent on the right unit. It also makes it difficult for the enemy to get rid of all the individual enchantments. You also gain experience, like for any other active ability, so that can allow leveling advantages.

    When combined with Torchbearers Creed and Shield of light, you can get large quantities of spirit damage and defense on things.

    The obvious answer of Theocrats liking works (especially since Shrines can become dedicated to good now), but Necromancers love it almost as much (if not more). Spirit damage works with despair, the defense helps ghouls, and shield of light rips up other undead. The Archangels also get heal undead as supports, so they can do that and heal themselves with normal heal, even if not ghouled. Goblins also benefit, as do draconians. It is actually a very good thing for Rogue units, as they tend to be relatively squishy and vulnerable to brute force: 2 straight defense helps with that.

    If you can get Golden Dragons with this alignment, well, that unit is the awesomeness. I especially like paring a meditating Golden Dragon (hopefully someones band) with An Archdruid hero or leader, as that removes the frost weakness and lets them meditate/attack in one turn.

    I’ll answer the rest tomorrow, as sleep beckons.

    Informative and thorough, as usual – I did not consider the synergy between Total Awareness and Shield of Dispassion in particular!

    I look forward to the rest of your response – hopefully forthcoming soon! 😉

    I’ve only played the specializations in single player but, I like them all best depending on the build.

    Grey Guard Master on Dwarf Warlord; the Dwarf Champion race upgrade let’s Firstborn give a moral boost to other units (on top of The Draft), this works well with Scales of Fortune, and defensive strike works well with Shield of Dispassion. Not to mention Grey Guard has a lot of goodies to deal with classes that use a lot of summons / undead or spam the same units, which let’s you deal with Sorcerers, Necromancers and Rogues.

    I like the Keeper of the Peace Master on my Draconian Rogue, especially end game. You’ll get Draconian Flyers with 3 extra damage channels out the gate (poison from Poison Knowledge and maybe Age of Deception, spirit from the Keeper upgrades, and fire from Draconian racial V). The Keeper upgrades also provide it with more defense, which I think they kind of need. They’ll get backstab and possibly martial arts on top and producing them in a city with a Dungeon isn’t that hard. Get them in a stack with a Sorcerer hero and get lightning on top, hyper mobile strike forces everywhere. Courtesan Ambassadors works well with the Keeper spec, and the T4 Arch Angel has Healing, something a Draconian Rogue otherwise lacks, get an Arch Angel with a stack of Flyers and they’ll heal back in no time, mix in some Succubi if you want and boy you’ve got a stew going.

    Shadowborn Master on my Orc Theocrat. Lifestealing on Crusaders and Exalted (but especially Crusaders) is brutal. That is all. You don’t really need anything more than that, but Entwined by Shadows gives +1 resistance and in that way offsets the Orc Weakness. It gives 20% spirit protection on top, which in turn makes Orc Shocktroopers have +1 resitance and 40% spirit protection (20% from the Theocrat upgrade) out the gate (and +2 lightning damage). Casting Gift of Nekron at the right time can also work miracles for heavy-hitting troops. Basically what Shadowborn Master does to Orc Theocrat is it allows you to not having to set up with Martyrs or Touch of Faith. You can just go in and smash things, it’s all incredibly brutal and smooth.

    We kinda see eye-to-eye. But one question: Doesn’t Shadowborn also give you another damage channel on your Draconian Rogue build? Further, I would imagine that – at least most of the game – Shadowborn is superior to Peacekeeper if you don’t have heals, since you get Embrace Darkness early and Gift of Nekron earlier than Arch Angels. But I have yet researched the three angels in any game yet, so I have not seen their impact on the battlefield in practice.

    #185645

    GeorgiSR
    Member

    I like best master shadow born with goblin theocrat. Benefits:

    1. Everything you build is dedicated to EVIL – Evil Religious Goblin Zealot – This combo is everything I wished for in AoW – I just can’t have enough of this drug

    2. Goblin Exalted can have 4 DMG channels (Physical/Spirit/Blight/Lighting)

    3. Life steal for everybody

    4. Fallen Angel is classified as “Infantry” thus you can summon a (Undying) DEVOUT/Flying T4 unit which blend perfectly with “Holy Box” and Exalted

    5. Dark lighting (5 Spirit 5 Lighitng DMG) benefits from Armageddon as a cheap nuke

    6. 5% cheaper units

    #185652

    Arlow
    Member

    it’s easiest for me to play keepers of the peace, i would love the grey guard, but play style-wise it feels to me like a chaotic alignment (chasing or letting run, declaring war and questing to maintain an alignment rather than the roleplaying i’m used to)

    i could play it as a mad king maybe – but feel more comfortable playing good, and LOVE the archangels and the shields that keepers gives

    #185973

    zeelilus
    Member

    I’m currently enjoying Keeper of the peace mastery on my Tigran rogue. Having meditative assassins doing holy damage is just fun thematically for me. I also enjoy the RP to have in being a tricksy rogue convincing all these cities to abandon their evil overlords and join my noble cause.

    I mean, why wouldn’t you trust a ruler that turns people shadow stalkers…they have spirit damage that means they’re good, right? 😛

    #185985

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    We kinda see eye-to-eye. But one question: Doesn’t Shadowborn also give you another damage channel on your Draconian Rogue build? Further, I would imagine that – at least most of the game – Shadowborn is superior to Peacekeeper if you don’t have heals, since you get Embrace Darkness early and Gift of Nekron earlier than Arch Angels. But I have yet researched the three angels in any game yet, so I have not seen their impact on the battlefield in practice.

    Oh yes, I seem to have forgotten to mention that Courtesan Ambassadors works very well with Keeper of the Peace, so that’s why I mentioned that spec on a Rogue build. Though Shadowborn could work also, but it would just be a totally different kind of Rogue.

    #186059

    ninninnin
    Member

    i gotta wonder why they made one of the default leaders with keeper of peace mastery a dreadnought when machines hardly receive anything from many of the new spells

    #186061

    Brandon_354
    Member

    Double post

    #186062

    Brandon_354
    Member

    it’s easiest for me to play keepers of the peace, i would love the grey guard, but play style-wise it feels to me like a chaotic alignment (chasing or letting run, declaring war and questing to maintain an alignment rather than the roleplaying i’m used to)

    i could play it as a mad king maybe – but feel more comfortable playing good, and LOVE the archangels and the shields that keepers gives

    Sadly that is about what all games portray neutral as being. Instead of actually being neutral you are the crazy guy who saves the orphans only to raze their city. TV tropes puts it best http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StupidNeutral

    I agree that Grey Guard Adept is clearly superior to the other two if you are only taking Adept level Specialization. But the question is Adept and Mastery combined – which I feel is a lot harder question. Also, within just Adept context, how would you compare the three spells that enhance the troops produced in a city – Scales of Fortune, Spiritual Freedom, and Embrace Darkness?

    If you can manage to keep neutral and happy id say scales of fortune. critting 2x as often is an amazing boost that applies to ranged and melee attacks. The problem with spiritual freedom is meditate requires me to essentially sit still for a turn to cast it for what may or may not be a worthwhile bonus (and that can be dispelled I believe making you particularly vulnerable vs a theocrat with purging burst) while embrace darkness’s life steal can be good but only applies to melee units.

    Having said that though staying happy and neutral isn’t always easy and life steal can allow you to take an extra hit or 2 and meditate can be useful in a siege if you are defending and can afford to waste a turn.

    Side question: is it a bug or intended feature that the leader/heroes don’t get the bonuses only the dedicated to x trait?

    #186075

    Jaduggar
    Member

    Essence Harvest is my new favorite skill in the game, and I love the +50 pop growth on cities for being neutral. Starts right at turn one, and is easy to maintain 🙂

    Chthonic Guardian is also the best angel, I think.

    Grey guards FTW ♥

    #186085

    3). Shadowborn embrace the darkness. A melee focused upgrade, and spells that encourage aggressive conquest and attacking. Works well for necromancers, of course, but probably better for theocrats. The shock damage let’s them fight machines, and the extra resistance puts their already high resistance troops into de facto immunity to many abilities. Exalted become just superb at fighting bio units. This is especially true for exalted martyrs: since they can absorb pain and earn back the HP like upgraded royal guard, but with flying.

    Otherwise, warlords do well with the abilities, and dreadnoughts (now that embrace darkness will soon make machines evil). Resistance is very useful for machines, as it mitigates the shock weakness and all the priestly counters.

    The stand out combo is a Shadowborn master Orc theocrat. Life stealing works on bio units, spirit on the undead, and shock on the machines. The resistance repair makes orcs practically excellent.

    In particular, the shadow born make mammoths good. The resistance and shock are nice, but the real benefit is the life stealing. The unit has such a high raw amount that any repair to that is a great advantage. Nekrons gift also works well with killing momentum: you get a heal and to defend.

    High elf sorcerer and warlords also enjoy the healing and extra shock damage (every sorcerer enjoys shadowborn for this reason, high elves just more so.

    Tigran rogues also are particularly benefited by shadowborn upgrades for much the same reasons as Orc Theocrats.

    Overall, I’d say that the warlord is best positioned to use all the alignment masteries in different builds. Nothing lines up quite as well as more cp for a sorcerer, for example, but there aren’t any real anti synergies I can think of (dreadnought machines without melee lose the benefit of life stealing, and AD often can’t use the anti summon spell).

    I’ll do the angels another time.

    #186493

    freese2112
    Member

    Does anyone feel that the new specializations completely obsolete the original specializations?

    I just ask because there are some REALLY amazing synergies listed in this thread, and there was VERY little of that previously. Only real example that I can think of would be Explorer buffs for Irregulars, but those tended to be VERY minor compared to what we’re discussing here.

    And I realize that there are limitations with the alignment specializations, but they don’t seem that hard for the good/evil. I’m playing a HE Theocrat and Peacekeeper Master and with average independant cities it was NO problem getting pure good (Peace + Vassal both helping alignment). I got an Orc city with an Enchanted Armory, and currently am producing Crusader’s with 17 defense on a T2! I realize that you can’t always count on the mythical upgrade, but they are not THAT rare. Imagine what the Dwarf would look like with the RG upgrade?

    Looking at GeorgiSR’s post above with the Shadowborn Goblin Theo – what could come close to that without using the EL specializations?

    Also – does anyone have a complete listing of the specializations? The Wiki site (which is awesome) seems to be based on pre-release info and doesn’t seem to be complete.

    #186560

    Gloweye
    Member

    Does anyone feel that the new specializations completely obsolete the original specializations?
    I just ask because there are some REALLY amazing synergies listed in this thread, and there was VERY little of that previously.

    The old ones got refreshed a bit. They all now give +5 knowledge for every “fitting” node at mastery, as well as a spell that lets you turn the general “mana node”(the ones that don’t fit anywhere, and have the Recharging Mana Currents battlefield spell) into your specified kind. If you get two of these, the knowledge buff already get noticable. And the general form of the mana node is the most common, so it usually isn’t that hard to be able to turn them. They also give good mana, so I can definitely see the use for a summoner class(sorc/druid, maybe even necro)

    Also – does anyone have a complete listing of the specializations? The Wiki site (which is awesome) seems to be based on pre-release info and doesn’t seem to be complete.

    Still updating. There’s also a couple of coding issues and basically all class units that don’t belong to the necro are oudated. It’s not helping that much that there’s a patch expected to hit soon, which will contain both fixes(tigran exalted cost is bugged at +10 gold over average I believe – or something like that) and balance tweaks(couple of weak units getting some love.) Though I must say that I completely like the fact that there are new people there helping with the updating. (Thanks guys!)

    #186571

    freese2112
    Member

    Thanks for the update Gloweye. Didn’t want my post to come across as critical, because the amount of content in the Wiki site is amazing and REALLY useful considering the incrdible amount of detail involved with this game.

    I just think that the abilities given to the alignment specializations are REALLY, REALLY strong. At least from what I’ve seen so far for Peacekeeper it’s only for units you construct, and not a “cumulative catch-up” for already produced units when researched, so that helps a little. For Peacekeeper though, the combination of the armor enhancement + meditate seems to be REALLY, REALLY tough though.

    #186588

    Gyor
    Member

    Peacekeeper Frostling Rogue.

    Life Steal is redundent on Royal Guards, Assassins, and Succubi, so Shadowborn is out for me.

    But between Dark Pact, Gold Medal, and Keepers Creed I have Succubi with 16 defence (armour piercing has no effect), regeneration, life stealing for one heck of a defence and that doesn’t include stuff from mystic upgrades.

    Offence, 13 physical, 6 Frost, 3 spirit damage (Dark Pact works with Keepers Creed), with inflict chilling and inflict enfeebling fever for further boosts to damage melee with each hit.

    #186589

    Gyor
    Member

    I’ll add Archangels are the best for clearing out undead, especially Lich Castles a pair of Reapers, Banshees.

    Also Shield of Light goes well with seduction.

    #186611

    Koiju
    Member

    Does anyone feel that the new specializations completely obsolete the original specializations?

    I just ask because there are some REALLY amazing synergies listed in this thread, and there was VERY little of that previously. Only real example that I can think of would be Explorer buffs for Irregulars, but those tended to be VERY minor compared to what we’re discussing here.

    Actually I dont agree there, there are some great combos with the original specialisations. For example, fire adept + dread naught lets you skin of oil a flame tanks primary target, creation adept is great for any haalfling as bless land helps to alleviate the many many climes halflings don’t like. earth adept with any race that doesn’t like subteranian allows you to expand underground, destruction master + goblins for blight empire goodness, same for any of the clime spreading empire spells really with a race that doesn’t dislike the clime, and one of my personal favs, earth master + AD for casting earthquake while you have wild hunt up for army wiping power. There are probably others too.

    But back on topic, I personally prefer keeper, mostly because I usually play good. I like keeper adept with halflings because bolster shuts down anti-halfling tactics (my halfling druid uses both keeper and creation adept for maximum moral boosting/preventing loss). I also use a dwarf warlord with keeper master purely for the theme of being undead hating, peace loving dwarves with amazing manticore riders backed up by angels 😀

    #187271

    freese2112
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>freese2112 wrote:</div>
    Does anyone feel that the new specializations completely obsolete the original specializations?

    I just ask because there are some REALLY amazing synergies listed in this thread, and there was VERY little of that previously. Only real example that I can think of would be Explorer buffs for Irregulars, but those tended to be VERY minor compared to what we’re discussing here.

    Actually I dont agree there, there are some great combos with the original specialisations. For example, fire adept + dread naught lets you skin of oil a flame tanks primary target, creation adept is great for any haalfling as bless land helps to alleviate the many many climes halflings don’t like. earth adept with any race that doesn’t like subteranian allows you to expand underground, destruction master + goblins for blight empire goodness, same for any of the clime spreading empire spells really with a race that doesn’t dislike the clime, and one of my personal favs, earth master + AD for casting earthquake while you have wild hunt up for army wiping power. There are probably others too.

    But back on topic, I personally prefer keeper, mostly because I usually play good. I like keeper adept with halflings because bolster shuts down anti-halfling tactics (my halfling druid uses both keeper and creation adept for maximum moral boosting/preventing loss). I also use a dwarf warlord with keeper master purely for the theme of being undead hating, peace loving dwarves with amazing manticore riders backed up by angels :D

    Kouji – all of the synergies that you list are standard type of buffs which were available through the combat spells. Healing and de-buffs were always useful, but those required CP’s and were relatively limited to “one time” type events. The new abilities are “empire upgrades” and can be just ridiculously tough. GeorgiSR’s post above is a pretty good example of just how tough it can get.

    For ShadowBorn, adding life steal to high HP (or DEF) units is really tough, same thing with the DEF/RES upgrades for PeaceKeeper. With an enchanted armory I’m producing Orc Crusaders with 17 DEF before they go into guard mode! Or producing T1 units that have 3 damage channels! Do you what other buff’s do that (especially Mighty Meek)?!?

    #187351

    Koiju
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Koiju wrote:</div>

    Kouji – all of the synergies that you list are standard type of buffs which were available through the combat spells. Healing and de-buffs were always useful, but those required CP’s and were relatively limited to “one time” type events. The new abilities are “empire upgrades” and can be just ridiculously tough. GeorgiSR’s post above is a pretty good example of just how tough it can get.

    For ShadowBorn, adding life steal to high HP (or DEF) units is really tough, same thing with the DEF/RES upgrades for PeaceKeeper. With an enchanted armory I’m producing Orc Crusaders with 17 DEF before they go into guard mode! Or producing T1 units that have 3 damage channels! Do you what other buff’s do that (especially Mighty Meek)?!?

    But the discussed effects such as keeper’s creed arent empire upgrades, its a strategic spell and must be maintained, as does the one to make produced units dedicated to X. The primary point being made was to say that the new specialisations have great combos that make them better than taking the old ones, which im saying is totally untrue as there are many great reasons to take the old ones, including certain combos.

    I have by no means replaced my leaders specialisations with all the new ones, a couple have sure, because they made sense thematically or I felt they were actually better for that specific build. But there’s plenty of cool and powerful reasons to take some of the old ones…

    To narrow it down you asked ‘Does anyone feel that the new specializations completely obsolete the original specializations?’ to which I say, no, I do not feel that that is true. You also stated there was very little synergy before, which I also said I didn’t agree with when I cited my examples. You also never specified empire upgrade synergies 😛

    But fair enough, if you want to talk about the empire upgrade synergies, there are some for expander, partisan, and explorer (explorer + rogue is one many people will already know) but even without these, I think it’s unfair to judge the other specialisations by empire upgrade synergies alone, the whole point of the elemental specialisations is to get access to powerful spells you might not get access to otherwise, they certainly have their place alongside the new ones, and are better than them for many builds and strategies.

    #187398

    freese2112
    Member

    Fair enough Koiju. I just think that if you look at what is possible now (see GeorgiSR’s post) the previous “+8MP for Irregulars” is relatively small in comparison. And while you have to maintain for the PeaceKeeper one is +5 mana/turn the combination of abilities on newly produced units is +2 Armor, +1 Res, and Meditate. That’s, potentially combined with the RG, just seems ridiculous when you layering that on top of a tough T3.

    It might be that there are a bunch of new ways to play that all have stackable impacts that have fundamentally changed the game. At least that is how it seems to me.

    #187407

    Check out the old ones: they’ve got some nice new toys. And alignment is a limitation to the new ones if there is resource scarcity, or a challenging number/level of ai.

    As for angels, well, that is an interesting choice that really can’t be answered outright. Sorcerers get stun phase, and projectile resistance, but AD get a 38 mp (I suppose 41 with advanced logistics) unit that is the fastest thing in the game outside of death march. Also great dwelling slaying powers and no blight weakness. Theocrats get devout and a level up, which is a universalized +3 damage and freedom from evangelist slowness (since an angel has healing and exalted leader stack will heal the holy box). Necros gain a spirit immune, spirit damage doing unit that can heal the undead and make despair burn.

    Fallen Angels, on the other hand, go best with warlords, Theocrats, or Necromancers. Warlords make them just super at melee, and can boost their spirit protection to adequate levels in the leader stack. Theocrats make them devout and gain despair. Exploit and inflict. Also the spirit boost and Templar knights leave them with no spirit weakness.

    With Necromancers, it is somewhat more vulnerable with 100% spirit weakness. Of course, being undead and getting protection from the light with the enchantment it is sixty percent. In return, you get life stealing and life drain on one unit (even if you steal it from someone else) and guard break makes things more vulnerable to invoke death (and despair helps).

    Dreadnoughts are also quite good. Flying is itself nice, and they lack a class bruiser. You can also iron heart and forcefield it to combat spirit immunity. The scream also ignores machines.

    AD do this with the leader stack and the wild hunt, but it isn’t quite as good as the angel moving so fast.

    The Cthonic guardian is probably the most versatile, as everyone can use a super tough pike unit. Still, it works best for the rogue of all the angels, since its scream can put shenanigan units into defense. No need for quick dash then.

    Warlord is the winner, as they get it cheaper and better with its major weakness (conversion) removed. And straight stat increases are more important with defender.

    Dreadnoughts also enjoy armored, and Necromancers can give it lifestealing. Theocrats can make it the best anti flyer ever.

    To summarize: AD Archangel, Fallen, Cthonic (the latter could be tied).

    Necromancer, Archangel (fast healing of 40 a turn), Fallen, Cthonic

    Theocrat, Fallen, Archangel, Cthonic.

    Warlord, Cthonic (by far the best), then Fallen and Archangel.

    Dreadnought, Cthonic (for musketeers and cavalry builds) Fallen (for machine builds) Arch.

    Sorcerer Archangels, then Cthonic, then fallen.

    Rogue, Cthonic, then Fallen, then Arch.

    In general terms, Cthonic are more adaptable than fallen, who are more adaptable than Archangels.

    However, as 4 classes buff supports, the Archangel gets the most. Fallen Angels tend to be both the most hard countered and most devastating. A warlord with a fallen angel can, for instance, give it last stand and tireless to make it practically invulnerable (also the physical buff), but a lucky dispel can blow it all away.

    The angels also have different classes they are the best against. AA not only smash the undead, but also kill exalted and mitigate Armageddon. Instant wrath also makes dreads (and AD) uneasy. Fallen kill warlords that aren’t high elves with gleeful abandon.

    #187410

    Koiju
    Member

    I understand what you are saying, but its hard to compare the great stat boosts of the new specialisations with the versatility and raw power some of the other elemental specialisations can bring.

    Ultimately I think it just gives more options, the new ones certainly have some great empire wide unit boosts, and I think its a good way to reward sticking to a specific alignment, which is of course another thing to consider, but the viability of your chosen build is gonna depend on more than just empire wide boosts, having access to elemental summons for example is very important for warlords, to give them more damage channels.

    #187895

    zeelilus
    Member

    Fair enough Koiju. I just think that if you look at what is possible now (see GeorgiSR’s post) the previous “+8MP for Irregulars” is relatively small in comparison. And while you have to maintain for the PeaceKeeper one is +5 mana/turn the combination of abilities on newly produced units is +2 Armor, +1 Res, and Meditate. That’s, potentially combined with the RG, just seems ridiculous when you layering that on top of a tough T3.

    It might be that there are a bunch of new ways to play that all have stackable impacts that have fundamentally changed the game. At least that is how it seems to me.

    8MP might not matter much for some classes such as druid, 8MP on scoundrels and assassins that you can use for stealth missions is quite huge. Assassins are even better than cavalry for setting up flanks if you get the explorer upgrades. The +1 vision range from explorer also makes using stealth units for scouts viable, instead of crows that can be ran down and killed.

    #187932

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Check out the old ones: they’ve got some nice new toys. And alignment is a limitation to the new ones if there is resource scarcity, or a challenging number/level of ai.

    As for angels, well, that is an interesting choice that really can’t be answered outright. Sorcerers get stun phase, and projectile resistance, but AD get a 38 mp (I suppose 41 with advanced logistics) unit that is the fastest thing in the game outside of death march. Also great dwelling slaying powers and no blight weakness. Theocrats get devout and a level up, which is a universalized +3 damage and freedom from evangelist slowness (since an angel has healing and exalted leader stack will heal the holy box). Necros gain a spirit immune, spirit damage doing unit that can heal the undead and make despair burn.

    Fallen Angels, on the other hand, go best with warlords, Theocrats, or Necromancers. Warlords make them just super at melee, and can boost their spirit protection to adequate levels in the leader stack. Theocrats make them devout and gain despair. Exploit and inflict. Also the spirit boost and Templar knights leave them with no spirit weakness.

    With Necromancers, it is somewhat more vulnerable with 100% spirit weakness. Of course, being undead and getting protection from the light with the enchantment it is sixty percent. In return, you get life stealing and life drain on one unit (even if you steal it from someone else) and guard break makes things more vulnerable to invoke death (and despair helps).

    Dreadnoughts are also quite good. Flying is itself nice, and they lack a class bruiser. You can also iron heart and forcefield it to combat spirit immunity. The scream also ignores machines.

    AD do this with the leader stack and the wild hunt, but it isn’t quite as good as the angel moving so fast.

    The Cthonic guardian is probably the most versatile, as everyone can use a super tough pike unit. Still, it works best for the rogue of all the angels, since its scream can put shenanigan units into defense. No need for quick dash then.

    Warlord is the winner, as they get it cheaper and better with its major weakness (conversion) removed. And straight stat increases are more important with defender.

    Dreadnoughts also enjoy armored, and Necromancers can give it lifestealing. Theocrats can make it the best anti flyer ever.

    To summarize: AD Archangel, Fallen, Cthonic (the latter could be tied).

    Necromancer, Archangel (fast healing of 40 a turn), Fallen, Cthonic

    Theocrat, Fallen, Archangel, Cthonic.

    Warlord, Cthonic (by far the best), then Fallen and Archangel.

    Dreadnought, Cthonic (for musketeers and cavalry builds) Fallen (for machine builds) Arch.

    Sorcerer Archangels, then Cthonic, then fallen.

    Rogue, Cthonic, then Fallen, then Arch.

    In general terms, Cthonic are more adaptable than fallen, who are more adaptable than Archangels.

    However, as 4 classes buff supports, the Archangel gets the most. Fallen Angels tend to be both the most hard countered and most devastating. A warlord with a fallen angel can, for instance, give it last stand and tireless to make it practically invulnerable (also the physical buff), but a lucky dispel can blow it all away.

    The angels also have different classes they are the best against. AA not only smash the undead, but also kill exalted and mitigate Armageddon. Instant wrath also makes dreads (and AD) uneasy. Fallen kill warlords that aren’t high elves with gleeful abandon.

    Chrys, I missed this when you initially posted, but it’s all incredibly illuminating. Thank you so much!

    #188263

    Azghall
    Member

    Dwarf with Gray Guard Adept has some insane defences.
    Goblin Necromancer shadowborn Master can have the butchers nearly invencible vs living units with its 3x life steal
    Tigran with Gray Guard Adept can have 400% chance for critical or with Halfings since they get some nice morale boost and it reduces the physical resistence weakness.

    Now im trying Goblin Warlord with Shadowborn Master, 2x life steal (for Butchers and Phalanx) with 35% discount for troops.
    Next im gonna try AD Goblin with Expander + Gray guard and see how fast i grow a city with slowest game speed.

    But now it depends wich race you go and with Race Governance bonus you pick.

    #188277

    Medic-Tank
    Member

    My next character will be Huggy the Mummy the halfling peace keeper necromancer. I want to see if using the vassal system for faster growth of cities I’m not using is viable. Cheers mate we’ll come back for your soul later…

    #188634

    Epaminondas
    Member

    My next character will be Huggy the Mummy the halfling peace keeper necromancer. I want to see if using the vassal system for faster growth of cities I’m not using is viable. Cheers mate we’ll come back for your soul later…

    Huh? Vassals grow cities faster than if you had owned them? I thought they didn’t construct any buildings?

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