The problem with infantry

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions The problem with infantry

This topic contains 19 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Shaithias 6 years, 7 months ago.

Viewing 20 posts - 1 through 20 (of 20 total)
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  • #227715

    llfoso
    Member

    I think I’ve figured out a major problem with T1 infantry/pikes, and this may be a major reason they’re considered inferior to cavalry and ranged units: they tend to start battles in the back.

    I don’t know why the lowest tier unit is placed at the back of the army. If archers and supports – even heroes – started at the back it would make a lot of sense. But what tends to be the case is that in a mixed stack the unit sitting at the back is a T1 irregular, infantry, or pike.

    What this means is that for that unit to even see battle generally the other units have to wait up for them. The infantry and pikes are meant to be a protective wall for my archers and supports, but to make that happen I have to let the archers and supports hang back for a turn and let one of the infantry move up. This is extremely frustrating, so instead what tends to happen is that everyone moves forward without them and by the time the sad little infantrymen reach the front lines the battle is over.

    I would say it would make way more sense for the leader of the stack to be the one in the back. If it’s a hero, it’s perfect because the hero is a) fast b) ranged c) generally a unit you want to protect. Your queen. And if it’s not a hero, then the unit leading the stack tends be either a ranged support or a faster T2/T3 mounted or flying unit. At the very least it’s likely to be a powerful unit (firstborn, etc) that’s worth making the others wait up for. And I can’t think of any T4s I would mind starting in the back either.

    I imagine I’m not the first to bring this up, but I haven’t seen it mentioned.

    #227741

    Wallthing
    Member

    I think this is implicit in all of the threads talking about wanting to pre-arrange battle formations or deployment but I don’t think I’ve seen it discussed separately.

    I’d add one more issue with infantry: there are too many units that can fly/float/shadowstep/otherwise avoid city walls. Regular Wall Climbing means little (particularly on T1 infantry that is very likely to die attempting it) and Improved Wall Climbing tends to appear on units that are already tough enough to survive getting over – but won’t have time to do much because flyers and floaters are starting to appear.

    Of course, I don’t think the wall climbing problem is solvable without enormous changes in how the game works (multiple units/turn, vast increase in cost of highly mobile units, more slots per stack, and maybe both or more). It would also, of course, distort the feel of the game’s combat almost out of recognition.

    #227742

    Thariorn
    Member

    Hmm, I wonder if it’s possible to mod the costs of the usual Tiers by a considerable amount (i.e. multiply their current costs by tehi tier) to have a practical “no op t4” game.

    You would still be able to produce the “op” T4s, but they would suddenly cost you about 1k+ gold.
    Sure, a stack of T4s would still oblierate a single stack of T1s, but getting a full stack of T4s out would require ressources with which you could produce (NOT maintain) 24 full stacks of T1s

    Of course we’d still need a way to cunter the awkward in-combat spawning (which is probably related to the stack priority mentioned in the modding-guide)

    #227744

    Wallthing
    Member

    Hmm, I wonder if it’s possible to mod the costs of the usual Tiers by a considerable amount (i.e. multiply their current costs by tehi tier) to have a practical “no op t4″ game.

    You would still be able to produce the “op” T4s, but they would suddenly cost you about 1k+ gold.
    Sure, a stack of T4s would still oblierate a single stack of T1s, but getting a full stack of T4s out would require ressources with which you could produce (NOT maintain) 24 full stacks of T1s

    Of course we’d still need a way to cunter the awkward in-combat spawning (which is probably related to the stack priority mentioned in the modding-guide)

    You’d probably need to scale up the power of higher-tier units somewhat when doing this but I can see it. You’d also of course want to look closely at abilities that can combat summon or recruit high tier units.

    If you don’t buff higher-tier units after doubling or tripling or quadrupling their costs, well… a stack of 3 Royal Guards + 3 White Witches with Military RG2, Shadowborn + Necromancer buffs, and maybe a MCU bonus or two is going to economically shove those pikes into all sorts of places that are awkward for your expensive T4s.

    Similar results would of course occur with other heavily-buffable lower-tier units (Elf Mounted Archers, etc.) but those are just my favorites. Gives me the giggles to clear Mythic sites with T2s (including melee) that leave as healthy as they started.

    #227748

    Gloweye
    Member

    a stack of 3 Royal Guards + 3 White Witches with Military RG2, Shadowborn + Necromancer buffs, and maybe a MCU bonus or two is going to economically shove those pikes into all sorts of places that are awkward for your expensive T4s.

    They already can do that. I lolled at this description though.

    #227751

    Wallthing
    Member

    a stack of 3 Royal Guards + 3 White Witches with Military RG2, Shadowborn + Necromancer buffs, and maybe a MCU bonus or two is going to economically shove those pikes into all sorts of places that are awkward for your expensive T4s.

    They already can do that. I lolled at this description though.

    I know they can (that’s why I love them) but after a change in costs between unit tiers you’d have a (75+10)*2*3 + (70+20)*2*3 = 1050 production stack (before cost bonuses) absolutely destroying a stack/site with 2 T2s, 2 T3s, and 2 T4s with a production value of more like 4000.

    So I think we would need to have a larger difference between the tiers of units.

    #227755

    NINJEW
    Member

    what are these “OP” t4s

    pretty much all the T4s seem about equal in usefulness, excepting dwelling units like giants vs dragons. juggernaut spam is pretty overwhelming but that has just as much to do with dreadnought class balance as the juggernaut unit itself: dreadnought is the class best equipped to mass produce them.

    i’ve never heard of a t4 being considered “op”

    #227758

    Thariorn
    Member

    i’ve never heard of a t4 being considered “op”

    Not my personal opinion either, but I’ve more than foten read posts about how unfairly strong T4 units are in comparison to T1 units (Who would have thought that?).

    #227759

    NINJEW
    Member

    compare what you get for the cost of a t4 and t1 units look plenty great. going up a tier is more a matter of logistics and power concentration than raw power, a swarm of weak units will always kill one big guy with AP draining and chain flanking.

    #227760

    Thariorn
    Member

    No need to tell me NINJEW 😀

    Having played Starcraft Brood wars, maining Zerg (Not that I was any good at it) I truely know the term “swarm” XD

    #227822

    llfoso
    Member

    I don’t have a problem with T4s actually. I’m not saying bishops and rooks are too powerful, I’m only asking why my pawns are starting in the back.

    #227826

    kevtro
    Member

    +1 to it being stupid to start fodder in the back

    #227829

    zealot83
    Member

    +1 wish they started up front too.

    #228071

    Zakharov
    Member

    I suspect the reason is so that your relatively squishy T1s don’t get killed as often in autocombat, though it’s hardly an ideal solution to the problem.

    #234175

    llfoso
    Member

    Hey devs, any chance you could shed some light on this? The logic behind it or why it can’t be changed or something? Thanks.

    #234188

    I suspect the reason is so that your relatively squishy T1s don’t get killed as often in autocombat, though it’s hardly an ideal solution to the problem.

    Probably true but it should be changed. The point of T1 infantry and pikemen are to screen, tank, and die for archers and heroes.

    #234305

    stellarrat
    Member

    It would be pretty cool if AOW allowed you to set a preferred battle formation your units, so that whenever a battle started they’d be in positions of your choosing. I’m not talking about a pre-deploy phase before each battle, but instead a formation that is always used when a stack begins a battle. Right now we have a linear set of slots with the Hero on the left and the other six units in line to the right, but what if we had a matrix seven across and three down for a total of 21 possible positions for the seven max. units? You could then arrange your preferred battle formation for that stack by dragging each unit into a position that would be saved until you changed it. Anytime it went into the combat it would start in that formation.

    X=empty
    C=Calvary
    P=Pike
    A=Archer
    L=Leader

    NOW: L-C-P-P-P-A-A

    AFTER change:
    X-X-P-P-P-X-X
    X-X-X-L-X-X-C
    X-X-A-X-A-X-X

    #234308

    Epaminondas
    Member

    So apparently modding tools won’t allow us to put infantry/cavalry in front and ranged behind?

    #235338

    Shaithias
    Member

    There is the breaking bad mod on steam that nerfs t4.

    #235339

    Shaithias
    Member

    Yes modding tools do have the ability to mod stack order (and stack order affects who starts where, but to do it, you would have to come up with a chart and mod each and every unit individually.

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