Theo Vs. Dread

We’ve moved over to the paradox forums. Please come visit us there to discuss:
You can still read the collective wisdom - and lolz - of the community here, but posting is no longer possible.

This topic contains 365 replies, has 30 voices, and was last updated by  ExNihil 6 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 91 through 120 (of 366 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #212929

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Exactly.
    The thing is, Dread should have a chance to win against Theo, and Theo shouldn’t complain that he does.

    #212934

    Prodigal Sun
    Member

    I won’t bother to engange in an new discussion about this, it’s been discussed to death already, how mana fuel cells and superior Dreadnought production, T2 golems and their strong clearing potential, rushed master guild(Known by competent players) Theocrat research costs are not free etc and take time to develop, martyr deaths in auto combat. My suspicion is that the former paradigm was so heavily in the favor of Theocrats in 1 versus one 1 that few have realized how the matchup have shifted, even among better players still stuck with their old stubborn mindset. Dreadnought can expand quick enough and gain mid game momentum to vanquish the theocrat. Between two good players it comes down to if Exalted can harras well enough to halt the dreadnoughts tech advance, what was disucussed in my thread.

    Yes, I believe most of this is true. Dreadnought, in the hands of a competent player, has a much stonger economy and can expand quicker.

    Theo win on mobility is my opinion, but there is always a possibility of a Dreadnought overwhelming the Theocrat before airborne superiority for Theocrat kicks in.

    #212935

    Ericridge
    Member

    Quo, the focus of my post is on the Rot spell, not builders.

    And believe me, 6x Golems was a thing in Vanilla and Golden Realms, it had all the advantages of warlord tactics with none of the vulnerability of shepherding weaker ranged units which is killed easily. I have defended entire cities with nothing but tier 3 golems.

    Golden Realm battle, needless to say that I charged from my walls and killed the sieging enemy army in field battle in this screenshot XD

    Also ExNil, If you’re relying on evangelists to inflict declare heretical upon entire enemy army.. you’re doing it wrong. Theocrats have mark of the heretic spell for that and it only costs 20 CP. That buff to evangelists is for them to mark a unit you must have dead as fast as possible and can be combined with skin of oil and then your devout units swoop onto that single heretic and bring it down fast. It also increases the evangelists’s power in small battles. Say you’re facing five longswordmen and a single knight, that evangelist mark the knight and then you fight.

    Tyrael, All i did was ask my friend to make elite and veteran golems and bring them to me on a tiny map for testing and show that rot is not impotent spell. I don’t know if he researched solid engineering or not for it increases the physical defense by one and the rot spell attacks Golem’s Resistance stat not Defense stat therefore I saw it pointless to request solid engineering to be researched too for the focus of that post is rot spell and demonstrate the vulnerability of golems when they’re not in defend.

    Additonally, lets say dreadnought is sieging a city of yours but you have a bunch of exalted in there too. Your exalted can charge forth and suicide upon those cannons. Then Golems is now forced to face a terrible choice of opening themselves to rot spell or retreat. And you get your exalted back because you won.

    And plus if rot will only hit one golem that means the dreadnought army is in very loose formation and it’ll be really easy for your fast units to charge at the ranged units behind the lines without worrying about attacks of opportunity! Such is the disadvantages of loose formations over tight formations. Heck your fast units might be able to withdraw before the bulk of golems surround you. Cannons and flame tanks don’t like being hit in melee. Sure they can flee but you then you can just withdraw again and get healed back up to full with priests.

    Anyways, theocrat probably need something extra against dreadnoughts for lategame but problem is, noone know what it should be. And it has to be done in a way that helps the particular matchup without overpowering theocrat against all other classes. And suggestions that exnil has made in his first post is bit too much.

    #212938

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Let’s ask a different question:

    SHOULDN’T have Theo a hard time against Dread the longer the game lasts?

    #212939

    Sorax
    Keymaster

    Hi NINJEW,

    …but I just wanted to take a second to say that that is dumbest thing I have ever heard on this forum. Apologies to both Zaskow and Bouh for everything I ever said about the intelligence of either of you

    It appears my request must have been misunderstandable:

    Hence again, just asking kindly: Please behave, please accept opposing opinions, please do not repeat your posts from other threads.

    Please have a look on our forum terms of use:
    http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/please-follow-our-terms-of-use/

    * Try to keep it nice. No swearing or cursing other forum users.
    * Stay on-topic.

    Consider this post your first warning, 3rd one will come with consequences.

    Your post did not add any value. It was off-topic and promoted an atmosphere that we try to avoid here. In case you are too busy being on the phone, it might be worth an idea not to post anything unless you are able to provide some reasons for your opinion.

    BR,
    Sorax

    #212940

    ExNihil
    Member

    Also ExNil, If you’re relying on evangelists to inflict declare heretical upon entire enemy army.. you’re doing it wrong. Theocrats have mark of the heretic spell for that and it only costs 20 CP. That buff to evangelists is for them to mark a unit you must have dead as fast as possible and can be combined with skin of oil and then your devout units swoop onto that single heretic and bring it down fast. It also increases the evangelists’s power in small battles. Say you’re facing five longswordmen and a single knight, that evangelist mark the knight and then you fight.

    I am well aware, thanks :). I said that casting mark of the heretic is not always an option for various reasons, which means you are left with evangelists, which in turn are limited to one unit.

    Anyways, theocrat probably need something extra against dreadnoughts for lategame but problem is, noone know what it should be. And it has to be done in a way that helps the particular matchup without overpowering theocrat against all other classes. And suggestions that exnil has made in his first post is bit too much.

    Well, the point of this thread is to put forward ideas and discuss them on this very point. You are welcome to contribute your own!

    Yes, I believe most of this is true. Dreadnought, in the hands of a competent player, has a much stonger economy and can expand quicker.

    Of course, the production buff is very strong early on, the price reduction for units as well and depending on the race chosen can be quite dramatic. Add to this bonus on gold production and you have the strongest production economy in game (arguably, but lets not argue about this). The advantage of the Theo is in unit levelling, which is great but not that decisive. Convert is not very efficient – at least in autocombat – to change this picture (if any the Bard stack rogue strategy is more effective because it can be done much earlier and cheaper). The main advantage of the Theo is in exalted mobility, but this can be negated with the use of racial flying units, esp. High elves t3s that can be buffed with armor upgrade and produced at a reduced price. To this add the addition of pistols to cavalry units, which gives Gryphon and Eagle riders that extra edge in combat.

    Dread can be played with a racial unit emphasis effectively. Probably even better then Theocrat (again no need to argue about this.)

    As for the question of leveling machine units and repair: This used to be a serious issue, due to which I have argued for more repair machine – and surprise, many people who now argue about how horrible any buff to the theocrat have argued it will be game breaking then. It was not, it only improved the gameplay and made it more competative. Dread has access to early machine heal through leader/heroes and builders, which are very very cheap units. Healing is therefore not much of an issue anymore and the handicap of going everywhere with a bunch of builders is a good balancing mechanism.

    Also, in all considerations of mobility it seems the default land map setup is what is considered – where the Dread definitely doesn’t have an easy life (like all “walking” units) and needs a lot of roads. Yet, continents and islands are also very common setups, and here the Dread has the same mobility as most other classes + the addition of its own unique and powerful ship unit. Add to this the fact that Dread can have cannons without advanced sea travel and you got a very versatile class.

    Finally, it seems that the shabby drone is forgotten in all these discussions. This is a good scouting unit that, when amassed, can cause serious headaches. Yes, if the matchup is t3 vs drone then its ridiculous, but a classic way of using these units is as suicide bombers beyond enemy lines. Also- the dread has the quite unique ability to clear legendary and mythical sites early on, by which I mean at the stage of some t3 units but not a shitload of them.

    #212944

    Dr_K
    Member

    The main advantage of the Theo is in exalted mobility, but this can be negated with the use of racial flying units, esp. High elves t3s that can be buffed with armor upgrade and produced at a reduced price. To this add the addition of pistols to cavalry units, which gives Gryphon and Eagle riders that extra edge in combat.

    This is exceptionally disingenuous of the situation. You can’t assume the Theocrat’s mobile class unit is negated when the cause of the negation is based on Dreadnought’s racial flying units. If the Dreadnought can produce them, then the Theocrat should be assumed to be able to produce them, without the corresponding bells and whistles of course. Exalted can be easily supplemented with racial flying units.

    Yes the dreadnought can produce them faster, but this gives up the Dreadnought’s machine advantage. Theocrats can use their entire arsenal of spells against racially based stacks, which is not a problem.

    You are providing the same counterexample to “Theocrat mobility” that people have put forth as a counterexample to “Theocrat v Dreadnought imba.”

    #212945

    Smaug3
    Member

    facepalm Guys, you are not going to get anyone to come to your side of thinking if you don’t prove it with something other than words. I was neutral when the original theocrat thread started, and I’m still neutral. Just stop typing and go out and prove it. Give us images, videos, whatever. Everyone here has their own personal experiences for dreadnought vs. theocrat, and if they differ from yours, that doesn’t mean that they’re wrong. I’ve seen players pull of mana fuel cells early on and stomp everyone else, I’ve seen people get mobile units as theocrats who proceeded to wreck me, and I’ve seen plenty of other scenarios similar to the ones in this thread.

    This is a video game, not a great classic where we’re trying to decipher the larger meaning. Debates like this work well for literature, because that was the medium they were meant for. This is a game where you use strategic planning and tactical prowess to achieve victory. Words are possibly the least useful way to get your point across. As I said earlier, just fight each other a bunch of times using the combinations and points you’ve made. I will arrange it if I have to. You all claim to have data supporting your claims. Just go and prove your claims. Please.

    #212946

    ExNihil
    Member

    The main advantage of the Theo is in exalted mobility, but this can be negated with the use of racial flying units, esp. High elves t3s that can be buffed with armor upgrade and produced at a reduced price. To this add the addition of pistols to cavalry units, which gives Gryphon and Eagle riders that extra edge in combat.

    Pls, when saying I am disingenious read what I am writing first. This is a qualification, which means it is a “but”.

    Yes the dreadnought can produce them faster, but this gives up the Dreadnought’s machine advantage. Theocrats can use their entire arsenal of spells against racially based stacks, which is not a problem.

    My point was regarding the Theo mobility advantage as par the Exalted, since these can’t convert units I don’t see your point. Are you referring to the flying evangelists? I didn’t see this unit in the wiki :). Alas, the Theocrat buffing of racial units is arguably worse than that of the Dread- my point was that a Dread strategy meant to counter-act harassment by exalted is not only viable, it is potentially powerful. Also, you don’t need to interrupt your production of machines, if you have a sufficient number of cities, you can relatively easily produce a stack or two of racial t3 units while also building machines.

    #212951

    ExNihil
    Member

    This is a video game, not a great classic where we’re trying to decipher the larger meaning. Debates like this work well for literature, because that was the medium they were meant for. This is a game where you use strategic planning and tactical prowess to achieve victory. Words are possibly the least useful way to get your point across. As I said earlier, just fight each other a bunch of times using the combinations and points you’ve made. I will arrange it if I have to. You all claim to have data supporting your claims. Just go and prove your claims. Please.

    Absolutely. This has been tried before, I invited a few of the participants to play matches with me. I was shut down quickly. The point of this discussion, aside from the nerdiness of the participants, is to address the devs – as you know I assume. The only problem is that people turn this into a freakshow of an argument rather than simply have a nice discussion. The devs are professionals, and they have a lot more data than all of us combined. I don’t really worry as I know they will make their decisions based on a set of considerations that is quite alien to all of us. All I wish is to put my ideas forward, and discuss those of others, and let the devs decide what they think is a good idea and what isn’t. Some degree of argument is useful of course, but I find the general spirit of the balancing sub-forum to be somewhat negative and especially unconstructive. I hope ppl here will start changing this attitude, as it really doesn’t help anyone who enjoys this game, or talking about it for that matter.

    As for the question of checking stuff out in game- I have a time constraint issue, hence the forum. When I can play pvp a lot I simply do that, no need to talk to much about it. Saying that, I am happy to play when possible and if anyone here is interested lemme know in steam (same handle as here).

    #212955

    Smaug3
    Member

    Absolutely. This has been tried before, I invited a few of the participants to play matches with me. I was shut down quickly. The point of this discussion, aside from the nerdiness of the participants, is to address the devs – as you know I assume. The only problem is that people turn this into a freakshow of an argument rather than simply have a nice discussion. The devs are professionals, and they have a lot more data than all of us combined.

    Do the devs really get data from all the games we play? I never could figure that out. Either way, it’s still unlikely to be conclusive. I play AoW a bit while lacking Wi-Fi, and I bet others do as well, so some data might be missing. And, to be fair, I think a lot of the argument could have been avoided by a bit more communication on both ends.

    All I wish is to put my ideas forward, and discuss those of others, and let the devs decide what they think is a good idea and what isn’t. Some degree of argument is useful of course, but I find the general spirit of the balancing sub-forum to be somewhat negative.

    By commenting here, you open yourself up to be criticized by the forum. Recently, I’ve noticed multiple threads where the OP said that they were appealing to the devs alone. When you share an opinion, people have every right to criticize it. It’s a common issue I find as a writer and critic as well, where new writers are unwilling to take criticism. I’m not saying that that was the issue here, it’s just a point a find myself having to make more and more nowadays. Regardless, I’d try and contribute my two cents to the original discussion, but I am very much neutral on this.

    #212958

    ExNihil
    Member

    Pls do. Criticism is always welcome, but there is a difference between constructive criticism and a lot of what goes here. This is off-topic, so lets try to keep ourselves on the subject of the thread. Anyhow, what are your 2 cents on the subject?

    #212959

    Smaug3
    Member

    Honestly? I think it could be changed, but nothing major. My logic relies very much upon, a) how much work would it take, b) what would it change, and c) would it be worth it. I think that a simple change, such as maybe demolisher to crusaders or exalted, or devout units, could be warranted in order for it to take on things like Golems.

    I really dislike the idea of adding it to a global spell that is already in existence, as that would skyrocket their power. Things like great purge are used for taking out sorcerers and archdruids, and Armageddon already weakens machines as well as almost all other classes, necro excluded.

    I’m highly against changing damage channels, as those have been in place for a while and seem relatively balanced. Demolisher to crusaders and exalted would most likely work best, as it wouldn’t mean all that much for obstacles and walls, as both can’t attack them in a siege, and those two are what the theocrat seem to use against dreads. I don’t play theo or dread vs theo enough to have overwhelming evidence, unfortunately, but a plus four melee damage to machines, or even demolisher x2, might be enough. I just think that this would be easiest and change just enough to affect the one matchup, but none of the others.

    #212961

    Gloweye
    Member

    Do the devs really get data from all the games we play? I never could figure that out. Either way, it’s still unlikely to be conclusive. I play AoW a bit while lacking Wi-Fi, and I bet others do as well, so some data might be missing. And, to be fair, I think a lot of the argument could have been avoided by a bit more communication on both ends.

    No, they don’t. But if you’re gonna record the results of a significant amount of games between players of equal skill, then I think they would listen. However, the equal skill is kind of hard to measure and the amount of games needed to offset RMG randomness is insane.

    #212972

    ephafn
    Member

    Let’s ask a different question:

    SHOULDN’T have Theo a hard time against Dread the longer the game lasts?

    I don’t think anyone disagree with that statement.

    But it would help the discussion if people on both side of the fence could try to give estimate such as to how big of a territorial (number of towns) advantage the theocrat need to have a 50% chance of defeating a dreadnaught at different points in the game.

    For example, if someone was to say that a theocrat needs twice the amount of cities of a dreadnaught to defeat it (arbitrary number) when both just researched tier 4 units (aka late game), then you could discuss whether that dreadnaught advantage is balanced by a slower early game, or you could discuss if this ratio is correct or not.

    #212973

    Do the devs really get data from all the games we play?

    Yes they do muahahhaa.

    #212979

    NINJEW
    Member

    the Sorcerer was too slow with its floating units to seriously oppose Dread Armies in later stages of the game

    I’m going to simply be nice here and ask you to clarify this

    That is correct. Since @ninjew wrote in a different thread, and I quote “I mean I’ll admit that I’m more used to playing against Sorcerers than as a Sorcerer,” I find it difficult to see on what he is basing his insults.

    Well, first off, if you want to play the “you don’t have as valuable experience as I do” game, I’m actually a Dreadnought main, so yeah I know a little something about the Sorc vs Dread matchup.

    I have on the other hand played several hundred hours of competitive Sorcerer prior to the patch that changed the node serpent (for which I argued long and hard I might add), and Sorcerer was pretty hard-countered by Dread at that point in time, given the right circumstances.

    Yes, the class based around highly mobile floating units that just vomit shock damage nonstop over everything in their path was hard countered by the slow machine class. Sorcerer is the hard counter to Dreadnought dude, not the other way around. In fact, sitting down and looking at the classes and thinking long and hard about them, I genuinely can not think of a single matchup that is at all any more one sided than the Sorcerer vs Dreadnought matchup.

    My notion of cavalry power is to be able to seriously buff cavalry as a type of unit, which the Theo can’t do. It can give all its units the devout trait and deal extra damage this way. It can increase the resistance of its units and boost their morale. It can heal them, and so on and so forth. It does not though reduce their price, increase their base stats, gives them extra abilities etc, etc. The devout trait in itself is not a sufficient balance to the Dread, where it was we wouldn’t have had this discussion at all, and neither were there so many threads concerned with this issue.

    Please explain in what way +3 damage on a unit-type made to engage long ranged units is not sufficient balance against the long ranged unit class

    I would like to emphasize (and I know this is futile but still)- there is no point in arguing. If you think that the Dread vs. Theo is well balanced, great! You are probably though repeating the same arguments time and time again in multiple threads. The options are: take specializations that damage machines. Use racial t2 and t3 units (supports, cavalry and t3s) rather than class units to fight of dread. Avoid wall defense/siege and try to capture your enemy in the open. I and a bunch of other people here disagree with these points and have also explained why ad nauseum. You don’t have to be convinced, but if you don’t have anything else to contribute to the discussion except repeating these points and arguing them in increasing detail, then why bother really? As I stated earlier I am interested in discussing the possible solutions to this issue as well as innovative ideas. If you are interested in making proposals or commenting on them (civilly) you are welcome to do so. If you only want to rebuke me and other for making proposals, I will simply ignore what you are writing and stop communicating with you. I suggest the other participants who feel the same do the same.

    Are you aware that the Devs read these forums and make balance decisions off of them? Somewhat recently there was a bit of an uproar where a thread about Exalted was made and everyone who didn’t think there was a problem simply opted out of the conversation, which made the Devs believe that the issue was unopposed and they made (later reverted due to the uproar) balance changes to the exalted based on that thread.

    It’d be nice if someone more familiar with what went on then could explain the situation better, I didn’t follow that issue much at all, but it should be noted that posters on this forum are basically incentivized to voice their disagreement with you. So you probably shouldn’t make threads with the idea that you’ll never hear from anyone who thinks differently from you.

    And you are welcome to start a thread about this very issue and there argue about the question whether there is need of an argument to begin with. Since this is ultimately reducible to a yes/no position I see no point in this.

    Now, do you have anything to contribute on the subject of this thread?

    I don’t know about you, but coming up with solutions to a problem that may or may not exist seems a little silly

    Also, in all considerations of mobility it seems the default land map setup is what is considered – where the Dread definitely doesn’t have an easy life (like all “walking” units) and needs a lot of roads. Yet, continents and islands are also very common setups, and here the Dread has the same mobility as most other classes + the addition of its own unique and powerful ship unit. Add to this the fact that Dread can have cannons without advanced sea travel and you got a very versatile class.

    Literally every class except Dreadnought has a non-scout unit that can fly or swim or float, so actually more water hurts Dreadnought the most. The Ironclad is a soft bandaid on this, as it’s simply a cheaper Juggernaut that can’t go on land. In the late, late game, this helps the Dreadnought achieve water control. The Dreadnought never gains water mobility, while every other class does to some extent.

    Alas, the Theocrat buffing of racial units is arguably worse than that of the Dread

    +3 damage and +20% spirit resist on every unit except irregulars and pikemen, and healing +a levelup on every support.

    vs

    +1 defense and -10% cost on some racial units, level up on archers, a dinky little pistol on cavs

    I’d say that the Theocrat racial buffs are quite a bit better, but there’s no need to argue this

    Also, you don’t need to interrupt your production of machines, if you have a sufficient number of cities, you can relatively easily produce a stack or two of racial t3 units while also building machines.

    And the more racials the Dreadnought fields instead of Machines, the more your “standard” Theocrat tools can be used. I don’t see how being able to force a Dreadnought to split his forces between racials and machines isn’t a big deal when the core issue for you is the belief that Theocrats can’t deal with machines well.

    Every time you say “the Dreadnought could go racial instead,” I’m hearing “this is a balanced matchup with multiple possible counter plays.”

    #212980

    Smaug3
    Member

    No, they don’t. But if you’re gonna record the results of a significant amount of games between players of equal skill, then I think they would listen. However, the equal skill is kind of hard to measure and the amount of games needed to offset RMG randomness is insane.

    I really want to do a study on this. I suppose the best way to determine relative skill level is probably asking people what level AI they generally feel comfortable playing. It wouldn’t be perfect, but it might do.

    Do the devs really get data from all the games we play?

    Yes they do muahahhaa.

    Fascinating.

    #212987

    quo
    Member

    Dread used to be dominant, and many things got specific counters against Dread/treb spam, e.g. sabotage, phasing Node Serpents, Blight Doctors’ weaken etc, so why shouldn’t Theos get something.

    And actually Theos are the one class that got worse during that round of edits, because Shrines of Smiting lost the Devout tag, limiting the ability to spam them effectively. This bit of rebalancing shifted the end-game battle significantly. The earliest versions of the Theocrat endgame featured a wall of 6-24 Shrines (depending on battle size) armed with a tremendously spammable AoE lighting blast that indeed did stand up to a large degree against a largely Machine army.

    Much later, in the most recent balance patch, Theo Exalted gained Zealot but lost Shocking Touch, which was IMO a 1:1 trade relative to the Dreadnought match. It’s a sidelong buff, being as you still need Heretic status to make it work. If someone jumps you–like say an end-game Machine army that runs as fast as a stack of Knights–you’re actually in a worse position than before.

    Other changes to the Theocrat like Exalted Martyrs keeping Absorb Pain, and the Devout tag being retroactive have shifted balance somewhat, but not in any way specific to a Dreadnought encounter.

    Anyway the main reason Theos “need something” IMO is because when you pull up their ability sheet and black out the things that don’t work you realize they are a hybrid warrior/caster class playing more like a Warlord without Warlord bonuses. The spells being listed: Divine Protection, Mighty Meek, Wrath, etc, are a combo of gambits and low rent abilities. They “work” strictly in the sense that not “every” ability gets blacked out, because a standard of “every” ability is unreasonable. The list of things that don’t work, and counters the Dread has is extensive.

    #212988

    NINJEW
    Member

    Anyway the main reason Theos “need something” IMO is because when you pull up their ability sheet and black out the things that don’t work you realize they are a hybrid warrior/caster class playing more like a Warlord without Warlord bonuses.

    Except Warlord doesn’t get healing on every support, nor does Warlord get Crusaders (probably in the running for best unit in the game).

    The spells being listed: Divine Protection, Mighty Meek, Wrath, etc, are a combo of gambits and low rent abilities. They “work” strictly in the sense that not “every” ability gets blacked out, because a standard of “every” ability is unreasonable.

    If by “the spells being listed” you mean “every spell except slayer’s doubt and smite” then yeah ok

    I wasn’t aware that those were the only Theocrat spells of value

    #212996

    ExNihil
    Member

    I’m going to simply be nice here and ask you to clarify this

    That’s refreshing :). Since this isn’t the topic of this thread I’ll be concise. Sorcerer units, with the exception of Wyverns and Node Serpent are floating (serpent is also floating, but very quickly), which means they are relatively slow – having 28mp and a move cost on 4 on all terrain. In vanilla some of these units were balanced quite differently and were not used as often, namely the wisp was a bit OP for its tier, the Phantasm Warrior was UP for its price, Watcher was the t3 of choice (very bad vs. machines and Theocrat but great otherwise) since you had a higher chance of getting it but you had a load of very bad wyverns (buffed since) that would die if you looked at ’em, Node Serpent was a rather shitty t3 that was both slow and squishy, and the Eldrich Horror was the same. Usually unless there was a shit load of horrors, which was attainable if played correctly but not always the case, Dread armies would kill you from afar or at least incur so much damage at range that by the time you got close you were pretty finished. Note that the Dread units and tech tree underwent a rather drastic change. Golem appeared just before Juggernaut and was a very expansive t3 that no one used in MP (ever, saw it once in MP at that time), Flametank was very early (400RP) and cheaper, so dread armies would be muskets (before the nerf), flame-tanks and cannons. That was OP or at least borderline so. Sorcerer was out of balance itself, so the question was how quickly you teched as Sorcerer to offset Dread production, not the makeup of the combat units. Usually I could engage with stacks of t4s vs. cannons and flame-tanks, but even this wasn’t a certain victory under some conditions (e.g. wall defense or constrictive geography).

    Well, first off, if you want to play the “you don’t have as valuable experience as I do” game, I’m actually a Dreadnought main, so yeah I know a little something about the Sorc vs Dread matchup.

    You are mistaking both my intentions and the nature of this discussion. I don’t care about your experience or what your reputation is or isn’t, we are participants in a forum that share a passion for this game. I care about opinions and for that you simply need to explain yourself in a more or less pleasant way and respect the opinions of others. If I wished to belittle or insult you I would have done that. Believe since my mother worked as a stand-up-comic for a while, I have some abilities in this department. Alas this is really not what I am getting at. I hope we can start on a new page and leave the confrontations behind us.

    Literally every class except Dreadnought has a non-scout unit that can fly or swim or float, so actually more water hurts Dreadnought the most. The Ironclad is a soft bandaid on this, as it’s simply a cheaper Juggernaut that can’t go on land. In the late, late game, this helps the Dreadnought achieve water control. The Dreadnought never gains water mobility, while every other class does to some extent.

    You can always manufacture ships, you also use racial units that have swimming or fly, and you have the drones. My point was regarding the transporation handicap, and water allows Dread to move armies like most other classes – with boats, in which it has its own advantage. Given the biggest handicap of the dread is mobility, its greatest buff is its production and ranged attacks. I find it well balanced now all in all.

    I’d say that the Theocrat racial buffs are quite a bit better, but there’s no need to argue this

    I agree there is no need to argue this. The Theo buff is dependent on casting mark of the heretic, the Dread buff is passive and permanent. Also, the Dread has very powerful ranged support, and the idea is what happens when you have diverse armies clashing. In the right circumstances, i.e. the Theo was able to cast Mark of the Heretic on all stacks before hand and has replenished the leader’s CP, Theo armies have a powerful bonus, in MP this is not always the case and then the Devout trait is either redundant or an actual negative, say if the enemy army has Unholy Champion from a hero.

    And the more racials the Dreadnought fields instead of Machines, the more your “standard” Theocrat tools can be used. I don’t see how being able to force a Dreadnought to split his forces between racials and machines isn’t a big deal when the core issue for you is the belief that Theocrats can’t deal with machines well.

    Every time you say “the Dreadnought could go racial instead,” I’m hearing “this is a balanced matchup with multiple possible counter plays.”

    The core issue is that in later stages of the game, namely when the Dread can amass huge stacks of Cannons, fire-tanks and Juggs, the Theocrats ability to contend with these in battle is severely curtailed. As long as the fight is in the t2 realm there is no real problem, but the t3-t4 bracket is problematic. Even with the proposed changes (some of them at least), the match will not favor Theocrat apriori, but it will be a bit more balanced. The point regarding racial cavalry and racial fliers was made vis-a-vis the points you raised regarding theo cavalry and exalted. The point was that the Dread has some possible answers to this, even if these are not its forte par se. The idea is to equip the Theo with a few more tools to deal with Dread without offsetting the balance between the two. As I see it the main advantage of the Dread is its ability to field many expansive units relatively earlier, whereby the advantage of the Theo is in its ability to evolve and level units + mobility. I don’t wish to upset this balance, only to change a bit the ability of Theo to inflict damage vs. machines using t3 and t4 units or with other possible solutions.

    I don’t know about you, but coming up with solutions to a problem that may or may not exist seems a little silly

    That is a difference of opinion. I do see a problem and have argued my points. You have argued your points. I see no way in which we come to agree on this by arguing. So I suggest we agree to disagree and leave this particular argument be as it doesn’t do anyone any good. Ultimately the devs need to decide whether there is a problem. I have given my opinion on this on multiple occasions, as have you, so I am not afraid they will simply assume there is or isn’t a problem due to the silence of people opposing changes or supporting them.

    With that in mind, lets get back to discuss possible solutions.

    Honestly? I think it could be changed, but nothing major. My logic relies very much upon, a) how much work would it take, b) what would it change, and c) would it be worth it. I think that a simple change, such as maybe demolisher to crusaders or exalted, or devout units, could be warranted in order for it to take on things like Golems.

    I really dislike the idea of adding it to a global spell that is already in existence, as that would skyrocket their power. Things like great purge are used for taking out sorcerers and archdruids, and Armageddon already weakens machines as well as almost all other classes, necro excluded.

    I’m highly against changing damage channels, as those have been in place for a while and seem relatively balanced. Demolisher to crusaders and exalted would most likely work best, as it wouldn’t mean all that much for obstacles and walls, as both can’t attack them in a siege, and those two are what the theocrat seem to use against dreads. I don’t play theo or dread vs theo enough to have overwhelming evidence, unfortunately, but a plus four melee damage to machines, or even demolisher x2, might be enough. I just think that this would be easiest and change just enough to affect the one matchup, but none of the others.

    Thanks for the 2 cents, looks like a quarter really :). Anyhow, I think giving abilities to all devout units is a bit excessive, I prefer restricting this to the Exalted and possibly also the Crusader. The first cuz’ they are the assault t3 units of Theo and have the mobility to get to the enemy ranged lines, and the latter because it fits conceptually and this unit should go toe-to-toe with Golem – this though is not necessary, giving demolisher to crusader might be a bit too much, but only testing this out can say for sure.

    I think the main issue for me is the Shrine of Smiting, giving it inflict Haywire can be enough, but I doubt it. I understand why you are against changing damage channels, I am on the other hand very much for this change. Alternatively, the proposal of giving Shrine a specific trait that does “holy fire” damage to machine units with its own effect sounds good, but I guess that is a bit more work for the devs.

    I agree a battlefield enchantment buff is a bit of a stretch and will be awkwardly OP/UP. One other alternative is to give evangelists a specific “inflict spirit vulnerability” like ability that has very long range and can target only machines. This can conceptually be explained as finding machines injurious to the faith and so forth.

    #213003

    Ericridge
    Member

    Actually back in Vanilla for me it was like this….

    Spammed Musketeers + Juggernauts + Spy Drones.

    Disregard Engineers, cannons, flame tanks, golems.

    Once stone walls started to go up, flame tanks became a liability. And were phased out.

    Cannons was just never built and Engineers too. Even the old Golems back then when they didn’t have tireless I think.

    Then in Campaign battle of Commonwealth vs Elven Court. This single scenario made me a far better dreadnought player than I was before.

    In the opening stages, I had alot of musketeers with supporting flametanks because I was facing off a warlord+Theocrat combo and I knew i would need flame tanks for shrines of smiting doom. At this point I was still the old player. After rolling over the warlord Leana that wasted her manticores doing nothing because she had like 50+ flying towards my throne city but I took her throne city + ko’d her. And so all those manticores became independent and faded away.

    And then after theocrat fell to me.. I stopped the construction of flame tanks here.

    I shifted the production to endless waves of musketeers and then charged forth together with racial dwarven troops. I would have a city wait til it had produced like 42 musketeers and then move them together. The racial dwarf troops had terrible time in the great forest fighting off yoloing horned gods. They got whittled down slowly until they was all cut down while fleeing back to the mountains.

    And my musketeers just had plain horrible time getting hit on turn 1 in battles by enemy gryphon riders. And so every first turn of battle I was losing 4 musketeers without being able to do anything cuz defender goes first.

    And so I could progress into elven lands, then alot of soldiers will die off to attrition and I’d be forced to run back to my lands where trees is all chopped down inside formerly leana territory.

    I was stubborn and this repeated for few days and before I went, ah fuck it I am getting nowhere! And I thought hard about my situation and went man, I need a good melee unit then remembered that Dreadnought have Golems. I was like but I’ve never used it before. At this point it was late game, global mobilization spells and endgame spells has been up for quite some time already. And went well, what the heck, let’s try them out.

    And then after doing stalling battles with my dwindling gold reserves+musketeers and I managed to produce just enough golems to reverse the negative trend. My dwarf cities produced alot of golems+musketeers at same time too and charged into the forest again with humans charging further west. This time gryphon riders couldn’t kill anything on first turn at last.

    And I went oh hey, golems is awesome, I don’t have to worry about being flanked hard anymore because even when they fly over my frontlines they only can attack even more golems instead of vulnerable musketeers. I repeated this tactic in RMG against Global assault manticore spamming ai warlords to great success too.

    I had a single cannon. It died. It was the one I started with.

    All those golems enabled me to start producing several juggernauts. Engineers was a terrible unit to build because back in those days, gryphon riders could reach them on first turn and kill them in one hit. And so instead I had golems in those spots.

    And so from behind the wall of walking golems, dreadnought was able to advance.
    And my initial two elite juggernauts grew to 10+ if I remember correctly. And in next few days of battling my way through the forest.. i learned how to play a dreadnought effectively. All units is good except for engineers and cannons in vanilla. haha.

    And so, this brings me to a concern, if theocrat obtain the power needed to kill golems fast, the late game advantage will shift into theocrat’s favor. And dreadnought gains nothing.

    But what a theocrat should get against a dreadnought for lategame bugs me. I having hard time thinking of one. And today the Golems is only hard to kill but cannot dish out the punishment anymore. Because if golems become too easy to kill, the dreadnought will be forced to produce racial tier 3s to fill the job golems was supposed to handle. And that places undue burden on dreadnought player.

    #213004

    ExNihil
    Member

    And so, this brings me to a concern, if theocrat obtain the power needed to kill golems fast, the late game advantage will shift into theocrat’s favor. And dreadnought gains nothing.

    But what a theocrat should get against a dreadnought for lategame bugs me. I having hard time thinking of one. And today the Golems is only hard to kill but cannot dish out the punishment anymore. Because if golems become too easy to kill, the dreadnought will be forced to produce racial tier 3s to fill the job golems was supposed to handle. And that places undue burden on dreadnought player.

    Well, Golems are now early mid-game units that remain relevant until the end. The situation in which t3 and t4 units have a hardtime to deal with t2 units, let along t3 units, is problematic. I agree that whatever changes are made these cannot upset the balance to such an extant that Theo moves from being handicapped when facing Dreads to be a hard-counter to dreads, it just needs to be a bit more balanced. I see no problem giving demolisher to exalted on a medal or even at baseline (needs to be tested first), these are t3 units with relatively low HP that are anyhow frustrated by the high defense and spirit invulnerability of golems – they re-surge, if they carry the day. The same goes for giving shrines the ability to deal with machines better through haywire and/or shock damage. True, a full stack of devout units + a single shrine deals serious fire damage, but this is a min/max combination: you literally have to have a single t4 in a stack of lower tier devout units to get the highest bonus for the shrine and then still do half damage to machines; before resistances and penalties – don’t forget that the Shrine has ranged penalties whereby both Cannons and Juggernauts don’t (but have a cooldown instead). In my view a leveled t4 should be able to take out a t2 unit that enters its optimal rage of operation within a single combat round (3 shots) or at least inflict catastrophic damage on it. This is now only possible with one or two shrines per stack + a bunch of lower tier units and when engaging at short-medium range. I don’t think the proposed additions to the Shrine will dramatically ofset this situation, they will just make the combat more dynamic. The only problem is giving crusaders demolisher, which will seriously offset the balance vs. golems, I therefore think this shouldn’t be done.

    #213006

    Bouh
    Member

    I believe it will be enough, yes. Only way to know for sure is to test it out though. I believe you are a scientist if I recall correctly (yes?) – so you appreciate experimentation. Since there is a bunch of enthusiastic beta-testers, I am sure that this can be tested safely and easily without negatively effecting your gameplay experience.

    And since you apparently are a scientist too you should know that you need a measurable thing for the experiment to mean anything. What will you measure in a theo vs dread match ? I’m asking for this since the begining of the first threadnought. A frigin way to measure the balance. In science you don’t test stuff without knowing what you are looking for. Otherwise it’s building evidences, and it’s evil.

    When asked how the proposed buffs would ”destroy balance” you were unable to answer, avoided the question and prior to that gave a nonsensical respons of buff not being the correct theme saying nothing about the asked balance issue you claim(Demolisher, great purge).

    Once again you avoid questions by returning the critic made to you. The proposed buff would destroy balance because the matchup is already balanced, any buff to one side would hence unbalance the matchup in favour of the buff side. This is obvious, like this is the very definition of buff and balance, like blue is the colour of the sky. Now, what situation is imbalanced in the theo vs dread matchup ?

    but this can be negated with the use of racial flying units, esp. High elves t3s that can be buffed with armor upgrade and produced at a reduced price.

    Gryphon riders are not armoured. There is no armoured flying unit in the game IIRC. The only thing the dread will give to a flying unit will be pistols if it’s a cavalry.

    Now this is the third factual mistake you make (exalted with rightous zeal, shrine healing, and now an armoured flying unit).

    I’d say your concern about this matchup are outdated. Theocrat is probably the most buffed class of eternal lords while the dreadnought is probably the most nerfed one.

    The advantage of the Theo is in unit levelling, which is great but not that decisive.

    That actualy was so decisive that this ability has been nerfed repeatedly since release. It is decisive.

    Dread can be played with a racial unit emphasis effectively. Probably even better then Theocrat (again no need to argue about this.)

    The dreadnought is the class in game that care the less for his race. Racial units are almost a hindrance for a dreadnought, and particularly in the case of this discussion where everyone is advocating for fast rush to golems and canons. In the discussion we are having, if the dreadnought need to build living units, then the discussion is pointless, because most of the dreadnought upgrades and spells are useless with living units. That is BTW a regular complaint of some dreadnought players.

    As Ninjew says, when you say “dreadnought can produce living units”, you are saying “machines are not that allmighty and the theocrat can actualy work around them already”.

    Dread has access to early machine heal through leader/heroes and builders, which are very very cheap units. Healing is therefore not much of an issue anymore and the handicap of going everywhere with a bunch of builders is a good balancing mechanism.

    This is exagerated : builders require a master guild to get repair machine. This is a BIG oportunity cost. During this time your ennemy build labs and temples and get more benefits from them. Requiring a master guild to get repair machine is a hindrance, not a benefit. You pay a big price to overcome the lack of healing of your machines, and you fill your armies with a dead weight : the builder that doesn’t fight.

    But it would help the discussion if people on both side of the fence could try to give estimate such as to how big of a territorial (number of towns) advantage the theocrat need to have a 50% chance of defeating a dreadnaught at different points in the game.

    Unfortunately that would require people to anchor their argument into the reality. You can’t forgoe what bother or contradict you in the reality. I’m asking for a setup and a situation from the begining, but none want to do that, because they wont be able to avoid the problem then by simply shaping the problem differently.

    And the more racials the Dreadnought fields instead of Machines, the more your “standard” Theocrat tools can be used. I don’t see how being able to force a Dreadnought to split his forces between racials and machines isn’t a big deal when the core issue for you is the belief that Theocrats can’t deal with machines well.

    Every time you say “the Dreadnought could go racial instead,” I’m hearing “this is a balanced matchup with multiple possible counter plays.”

    Exactly this.

    And actually Theos are the one class that got worse during that round of edits, because Shrines of Smiting lost the Devout tag, limiting the ability to spam them effectively. This bit of rebalancing shifted the end-game battle significantly. The earliest versions of the Theocrat endgame featured a wall of 6-24 Shrines (depending on battle size) armed with a tremendously spammable AoE lighting blast that indeed did stand up to a large degree against a largely Machine army.

    Shrine is still a powerhouse. You can’t simply spam them anymore, but they still have the most powerful ranged attack in game and the most devastating AoE attack. Two shrines will unleash an unstable manacore on the battlefield, but only on the ennemies and half on one shrine. Shrines need nothing. They already murder machines.

    You want to have fun against machines armies ? Produce armies of 1 shrine + 5 martyrs. Martyrs absorb pain on the shrine for it to berzerk in the middle of the machines and anihilate them all. 3 such armies will annihilate anything and cost the price of one dreadnouhgt army.

    Anyway the main reason Theos “need something” IMO is because when you pull up their ability sheet and black out the things that don’t work you realize they are a hybrid warrior/caster class playing more like a Warlord without Warlord bonuses. The spells being listed: Divine Protection, Mighty Meek, Wrath, etc, are a combo of gambits and low rent abilities. They “work” strictly in the sense that not “every” ability gets blacked out, because a standard of “every” ability is unreasonable. The list of things that don’t work, and counters the Dread has is extensive.

    Please do this list.

    I agree there is no need to argue this. The Theo buff is dependent on casting mark of the heretic, the Dread buff is passive and permanent. Also, the Dread has very powerful ranged support, and the idea is what happens when you have diverse armies clashing. In the right circumstances, i.e. the Theo was able to cast Mark of the Heretic on all stacks before hand and has replenished the leader’s CP, Theo armies have a powerful bonus, in MP this is not always the case and then the Devout trait is either redundant or an actual negative, say if the enemy army has Unholy Champion from a hero.

    And machine status come with many drawbacks too : specific anti-machine spells, no heal, no retaliations…

    The core issue is that in later stages of the game, namely when the Dread can amass huge stacks of Cannons, fire-tanks and Juggs, the Theocrats ability to contend with these in battle is severely curtailed. As long as the fight is in the t2 realm there is no real problem, but the t3-t4 bracket is problematic.

    At this stage of the game, T3 racial units are perfectly able to fight these machines. And at this stage of the game, you must also consider specialization stuff : hellfire strategy will force you to rely on flame tank which are harmless to hellhound and fire elementals, or draconians, or dwarves ; earth quake strategy will force you to rely on racial floaters and flyers, which means completely discarding any advantage you can have ; etc. I already explained what a theocrat can do at this stage. Even shrines + exalted + racial T3 are definitely able to stand against dreadnought armies. And once armageddon is running, holy war can kick in too, and spell doom on the machines.

    The point regarding racial cavalry and racial fliers was made vis-a-vis the points you raised regarding theo cavalry and exalted.

    But you can’t isolate each thing. Any flyer you produce is one less machine, and the only card of the dreadnought against the theocrat is machines spirit immunity. Without it, absolutely ALL the arguments regarding dreadnought superiority vanish.

    #213017

    quo
    Member

    I see no problem giving demolisher to exalted on a medal or even at baseline (needs to be tested first), these are t3 units with relatively low HP that are anyhow frustrated by the high defense and spirit invulnerability of golems – they re-surge, if they carry the day.

    While I agree with you that Exalted could use a boost vs Machines I would prefer it not be Demolisher. I do think the problem is partly damage related but a straight stat boost IMO wouldn’t correct it. (That said, and somewhat offtopic, I do very strongly feel Holy War and/or Armageddon should provide Devout Slayer, maybe even both so units get it x2 in order to turn the pressure up on Theo/Theo games, a topic which deserves a thread of its very own).

    When I think about playing a Dread and what is dangerous to play against, the first thing that comes to mind is Stuns. Most of the reason Sorcerors are such a PITA isn’t their damage (although that is outstanding too), its the fact that killing their Supports is such a crapshoot. The polar opposite of fighting a Theocrat, really, whose Supports are slow and despite a heal and a medal relatively defenseless. And what really sinks Theocrat supports and support-like units is the need to be in touch range to use their abilities, which means a field day for a Cannons like nothing else.

    In Dread/Necro, the Necro has a lot of disadvantages. This is a matchup that nearly would play like Dread/Theo except the Necro has some special abilities that can make life difficult. You can’t do crap if your Machines all get stunned. More than that though, this matchup is interesting. A bunch of abilities disappear and a new one shows up (Haywire).

    Ditto Rogue. You get to ignore his Blight damage, yay. But then he’s got a few units with Sabotage (boo). Sabotage is almost a bit ridiculous in the damage it does and it if it showed up on more than just Scoundrels would probably make me never play Dreads again. But it is there and the game more interesting for it.

    When I look at that and then how the Theo plays, it’s clear something is off, and not just damage. Here we have a class that is severely hampered to the point that folks in this thread are seriously listing 10 CP powers that come on level 1 Theocrat heroes as examples of things the Theocrat still gets to cast in an effort to show that not “every” ability is hampered.

    Meanwhile there is no accounting for the elephant in the room: the Dread/Sorceror matchup, which is incredibly bloody and which is the reason the Dread has a number of abilities to disable or limit spell casting. The Dread needs to be able to counter Chain Lightning and the like or else he’ll be bathing in broken machine parts. It has that in the form of Spelljammers and a few other abilities. But these same counters apply to all classes, and so here we have a Theocrat scrounging for gimmicks like Mighty Meek and Instant Wrath and being denied even that, because the Dread has tools that anticipate much greater devastation, which the Theocrat can’t begin to deliver outside of cheese like an all-fire army paired with Hellfire. (And frankly if Hellfire is the standard, then everything is balanced, has been since Vanilla, and there is no point in ever tweaking anything because you always just Hellfire it.)

    Anyway, related to that final point, perhaps if Theocrats could somehow cast through anti-spell screens due to the nature of their powers being “divine” that would be interesting. Maybe only let them do this with their class spells and have their sphere spells not be subjected to it.

    #213020

    Bouh
    Member

    When I look at that and then how the Theo plays, it’s clear something is off, and not just damage. Here we have a class that is severely hampered to the point that folks in this thread are seriously listing 10 CP powers that come on level 1 Theocrat heroes as examples of things the Theocrat still gets to cast in an effort to show that not “every” ability is hampered.

    Instant wrath is one of the best ability of the theocrat. And among the few abilities that doesn’t work against the dreadnought is one 8cp spell and one 12cp spell… You know holy war is not the only spell of the theocrat, and this one still work as a deterrent to prevent the dreadnought from fielding living units.

    I repeat myself, but this threadnought is here because exalted do 4 spirit damage and the two first spells of the theocrat doesn’t work on machines.

    I’ll ask again : what situation in game does show a theocrat having trouble fighting a dreadnought ? Why does no one want to answer this simple question that hold the premice of this thread ? If this is so obvious, why doesn’t anyone want to explain clearly only ONE fuckin time ?

    IMO there is no problem. The theocrat will always be able to beat a dreadnought because the matchup is balanced despite the spirit imunity of machines. I can’t describe any situation for that because all situations can go either in favour of the dreadnought or the theocrat, the outcome will depend on players’ skill.

    Supporters of this thread claim that there are imbalanced situations. What are these ? When a problem exists, it can be described. Please someone describe this problem.

    (And frankly if Hellfire is the standard, then everything is balanced, has been since Vanilla, and there is no point in ever tweaking anything because you always just Hellfire it.)

    And what is so crazy in this assumption ?

    #213022

    Khelle
    Member

    There are some hindrances for dreadnought that theocrats don’t have which weren’t yet discussed here.

    1. Dreadnought is awful at playing living units. Someone before argued, that Dreadnought can build racial flying units and thanks to that stop flying Theocrats harassers. This is simply wrong. If theocrats face the same dreadnought LIVING army, he will dominate it hard.

    2. Having hard time on using racial units, dreadnought is forced to use 4 class machines, and maybe trebuchet. Because of that dreadnought is HIGHLY LIMITED to using physical / fire sphere damage. Everything which is fire-immune and have rather high defense – like dwarves – will counter dreadnought hard.

    3. Once again – since dreadnought have poor use of living units – he has to use machines – so he has to build expensive Factories in each war town – that requires funds and also extends time between capturing and being able to use city. Theocrat can just ignore this and play fully on racial units.

    Seriously this topic should be closed, because not only it is second of its kind , but also the author says so many both dreadnought and theocrat heresies I can no longer think his arguments are backed by anything more than speculations related to Golden Realms (machines having high defense? reinforced raising defense for units in melee? theocrats have weak use of racial supports? mark of heretic being weak againt machines? c’mon!)

    Demolisher shouldn’t be added on Exalted. They are already EXCELLENT units, after having Righetous Zeal (or however it is called) thay are quite OP in my opinion, but whatever. Having demolisher would make them highy mobile, deathbringers to both living and machine units, that also happen to resurrect after winning battle. Seriously?

    ExNihil, make ma a favour and play some SP and MP games AS dreadnought before continuing on this thread. Maybe then you will realize that dreadnought is not a demi-god class you are picturing it to be.

    #213024

    Draxynnic
    Member

    I think the accusations that ExNihil is attempting to stifle dissenting opinion because he’d prefer to keep the “is this necessary” question in a different thread are a little unfair.

    He’s not stifling discussion. We have a 35+ plus threadnought to debate the ‘if’ question. If anything, it’s the filibustering from both sides on the ‘if’ question that is stifling any discussion on possible solutions that can be deployed if the ‘if’ question does get resolved. BBB’s observation that many of the suggestions in this thread were made in the 35+ page threadnought, and then lost in the noise, is, I think, demonstration that there is value in having seperate threads for the “is this necessary” and the “what options can we take if it is?”

    Because in the dev’s shoes I, for one, would not want to trawl through that monster for ideas if I did decide it was necessary.

    So, let’s actually consider one of the suggestions and look at the pros and cons, shall we?

    Switching Smiting Prayer Bolts to Shock/Spirit was actually a suggestion that I’d made myself back in beta, partially because the animation looks lightning-ish, partially due to the number of units around back then which had both Fire and Spirit immunity. At the time, there were arguments raised in disfavour (I don’t recall what they were, but they were reasonable) and, obviously, it didn’t happen. However, what would be the effect of such a change?

    First, it would increase the effectiveness – by 20% – against dreadnought machines. Conversely, it would reduce the effectiveness against everybody else’s. It would also provide a better thematic reason to have the attack have the potential to inflict Haywire, as it’s an electrical attack.

    Second, it would decrease the effectiveness against most sorcerer summons, which are immune to shock. Horned Gods become completely immune. Conversely, draconians, Forge Priests, and Firstborn would be taking more damage.

    Third, it would be less effective against undead. (A matchup that already quite favours the Theocrat.)

    Finally, it would have the effect of making Smiting Prayer Bolts analogous to Black Lightning (shock, spirit, Spirit Breaking…). This… might not actually be a bad thing, as the Shadowborn seem to gain power from worship of the Wizard Kings, and at least some Theocrats appear to do the same (the Shrine of Smiting description itself describes praying to Anon to fuel the Shrine, although Anon is probably the Wizard King least likely of all to be associated with the Shadowborn).

    So there’s the effect. It gives the theocrat a late-game boost against dreadnought (which, to be fair, I think is a poor matchup for the theocrat, I just don’t think it’s as bad as some people do), while nerfing it against some other classes, particularly the necromancer. I really don’t think the balance is so finely tuned that this proposed change is going to upset it (with the number of asymmetric options in the game, perfect balance is, basically, impossible, it’s just a matter of getting near enough).

    #213025

    NINJEW
    Member

    Sorcerer units, with the exception of Wyverns and Node Serpent are floating (serpent is also floating, but very quickly), which means they are relatively slow – having 28mp and a move cost on 4 on all terrain.

    In what world is this slow

    so dread armies would be muskets (before the nerf), flame-tanks and cannons. That was OP or at least borderline so.

    I’m not entirely sure I believe this, as Cannons used to be pretty bad. They’re the only Dreadnought unit that has been buffed, because previously they did damage that was roughly the same as the Trebuchet, but needed reloading.

    You are mistaking both my intentions and the nature of this discussion. I don’t care about your experience or what your reputation is or isn’t, we are participants in a forum that share a passion for this game.

    Dude then why did you bring up my inexperience with playing Sorcerer

    Like I have no idea why you would do that if you didn’t care about my experience

    You can always manufacture ships, you also use racial units that have swimming or fly, and you have the drones. My point was regarding the transporation handicap, and water allows Dread to move armies like most other classes – with boats, in which it has its own advantage.

    Oh wow, so my mobility options are:

    1. Units that can’t traverse land
    2. Use racial units that the Theocrat can then Convert and Smite and deal spirit damage against and do all the things that you’re complaining they can’t do in this matchup (also I don’t know of any Racial units with flying or swimming that are armored, so the Dread buffs don’t apply. The Dread unit buffs aren’t all that great by the T3 stage fo the game anyway either, so I’m not sure what the problem here is at all)
    3. Scout Drones? I thought you said your problem is specifically with the T3 stage of the game, where you had previously noted that Drones lose their suicide bomb effectiveness. Drones will also die immediately to one or two archers without being able to get into suicide bomb range, so honestly they’re not even all that useful at the T1 stage unless you already have a numbers advantage with other units, who you’ll still have to get across water by other means

    Gotta be honest with you, none of these sound very appealing to me. Sounds like the big weakness of machines (they’re immobile) still applies on water, and the dreadnought is forced to either eat a further mobility penalty that the Theocrat has more options of getting around (Exalted and Shrines, in addition to the normal flying/swimming racials that Dread also has access to), or move away from the units that are such a problem from you. This sounds like purely a win/win for the Theocrat, so I have no idea at all why you’d think water favors Dreadnoughts.

    Water allows Dreadnought to move its units like most other classes: very slowly. But every other class has multiple ways of getting around this, but Dreadnought can only fall back on racial units that its buffs don’t even apply to. So, just like on Land, the Dreadnought Machines are handicapped vs other classes by their mobility.

    The core issue is that in later stages of the game, namely when the Dread can amass huge stacks of Cannons, fire-tanks and Juggs, the Theocrats ability to contend with these in battle is severely curtailed.

    Ah yes, difficulties in the Late Game with fighting the Late Game Class, very interesting

    The point regarding racial cavalry and racial fliers was made vis-a-vis the points you raised regarding theo cavalry and exalted. The point was that the Dread has some possible answers to this, even if these are not its forte par se.

    Yeah, a Dread Player isn’t forced to immediately throw up his arms in frustration at the mere sight of cavalry and exclaim “Oh damn! He knows my one true weakness! Well I guess this match is just over then, GG.” Again, this turns the game into a series of counter plays, instead of one side immediately folding to the other’s One True Strategy. I don’t know about you, but that sounds like exactly how I want my game to be balanced, personally.

    The first cuz’ they are the assault t3 units of Theo and have the mobility to get to the enemy ranged lines, and the latter because it fits conceptually and this unit should go toe-to-toe with Golem – this though is not necessary, giving demolisher to crusader might be a bit too much, but only testing this out can say for sure.

    Crusaders are already better than Golems in pretty much every way. Also, with Mark of the Heretic, Exalted will actually do damage equal to Draconian Fliers against machines, and more damage than unbuffed Gryphons. But with Resurgence. So, more so than any other class with T3s, the Theocrat actually has very good flying options already. So buffing them further would be a little ridiculous, especially when you consider that the Golem is the only unit that you really need to worry about damaging once you get into melee range (as Golems are the only machine that can fight back)

    Well, Golems are now early mid-game units that remain relevant until the end.

    Pretty sure that Golem effectiveness falls off dramatically towards the later stages of the game, actually. “it has T# level defense for T2 prices!” stops being that impressive once the game shifts over to primarily T3 units anyway. They’re no Crusaders, who are relevant all the way through the game, because holy shit 19 defense in guard mode out of the box, that’s more than a god damn Juggernaut in Defense mode.

    these are t3 units with relatively low HP that are anyhow frustrated by the high defense and spirit invulnerability of golems

    And are frustrated by only Golems, and, with Mark of the Heretic, do as much damage as any other Flier against Golems.

    You might say that you can’t always get Mark of the Heretic off on an entire army, but honestly? You don’t need to. You only need it against the Golems. So one or two Evangelists will let you get it on all or most of the units that you actually need it against. Once the Golems are down, a couple of Exalted can tear right through Cannons with very few worries. Or a couple of Cavalry. Or a couple of anything that gets into melee range, because melee renders every machine except the Golem more or less impotent.

    In my view a leveled t4 should be able to take out a t2 unit that enters its optimal rage of operation within a single combat round (3 shots) or at least inflict catastrophic damage on it.

    A Manticore Rider can’t kill a Crusader in a single combat round either. A Juggernaut will require 3 shots (minimum 3 rounds, if an Engineer is reloading ti every round). A Horned God would require 5 Call Lightnings, or 4 melee strikes. Also, even if Golems didn’t have 100% spirit resistance, it would take a Shrine of Smiting 3 rounds to kill one anyway. So I’m not entirely sure this view fits in with the rest of the game at all, especially in a conversation that involves Theocrats, who have the single greatest example of “not even t4s can kill this one damn T2 unit” in the entire game.

    Gryphon riders are not armoured. There is no armoured flying unit in the game IIRC. The only thing the dread will give to a flying unit will be pistols if it’s a cavalry.

    Now this is the third factual mistake you make (exalted with rightous zeal, shrine healing, and now an armoured flying unit).

    Don’t forget what he thought Reinforced did.

    Ex Nihil, here is a very handy resource for Age of Wonders 3: http://aow3db.tumblr.com/index

    It is extremely useful, and designed to make quickly looking up specific units and comparing them with other units a breeze. I would highly recommend you begin double checking everything you say against this resource, before you hit submit, because it’s quite clear that the game has changed dramatically since your heyday, and you are unaware of many of the new changes (or, in the case of something like Reinforced, were apparently never aware of how it functioned)

    When I look at that and then how the Theo plays, it’s clear something is off, and not just damage. Here we have a class that is severely hampered to the point that folks in this thread are seriously listing 10 CP powers that come on level 1 Theocrat heroes as examples of things the Theocrat still gets to cast in an effort to show that not “every” ability is hampered.

    What are you going on about? 10cp spells are the only spells that Theocrat loses. It’s really just Smite and Slayer’s doubt. I already pointed this out to you earlier:

    If by “the spells being listed” you mean “every spell except slayer’s doubt and smite” then yeah ok

    I wasn’t aware that those were the only Theocrat spells of value

    #213029

    ExNihil, make ma a favour and play some SP and MP games AS dreadnought before continuing on this thread. Maybe then you will realize that dreadnought is not a demi-god class you are picturing it to be.

    I said exactly the same thing and was reminded that it was a bit personal and over the top. I chatted with Ex and I believe he’ll look more closely at the stats.

    The thing is, unless I’m completely wrong, Golems are actually overall weaker now than they were.

    With Eternal Lords, the Dreadnought class got reworked almost from top to bottom.

    Musketeers got net nerfed imho, Golems moved down a tier, Engineers got buffed, Cannons got buffed, Flametanks got slightly buffed with reinforced (but cost went up iirc) and Juggernauts stayed the same.

    I think at this point it is actually worth analysing the cost and strengths of these units.

    As far as I understand it, the main argument is that because the Dread uses machines, the Theocrat is thus hard countered because of spirit immunity on machines.

    However, my answer to that is only 4 units (Cherubs, Evangelists, Exalted and Shrines) out of 7 actually use spirit damage, and of those, only 2 can be argued to be dependent on it (Evangelists and Shrines) dependent here meaning using 50% of their damage from that.

    Of those, we have the Evangelist – who was never meant to be going toe to toe with anything, so his damage output doesn’t factor into anything. His job is to heal Crusaders and convert whatever he can (so not machines edit – however, your Cannons without Engineers are not so great, and if you have Engineers, those Evangelists are a threat).

    Then we have the Shrine, which as shown earlier is quite the machine killer anyway, and can outshoot a Juggernaut, and have its damage absorbed.

    So, I’m looking at this and thinking that that central claim, which is

    because the Dread uses machines, the Theocrat is thus hard countered because of spirit immunity on machines.

    is not really valid.

    Exception – Humans use more spirit damage, so a Human Theocrat will have more problems than normal.

    Then I started thinking that basically, Crusaders can stroll up and whack any machine in the face, whilst being constantly healed and having their pain absorbed. Given that repair machine realistically is going to come from 2 sources, heroes and Builders, the Theo can, and usually win this war of attrition.

    Now, what are the Dreads strengths?

    I have had people say here that using Builders gets round the machine healing issue, which is does, but at the opportunity cost of getting a Master’s Guild, and taking up an army slot.

    And if your heroes are repairing machines, then that’s one less thing they are doing.

    The Theocrat on the other hand can rely on massed Supports to heal the damage and Martyrs to absorb the damage, and instant wrath to reflect the damage and Crusaders to tank the damage and Exalted to sweep over the land like a swarm of locusts and inflict targetted damage and the Shrine to lay on the damage.

    PLUS, mark of the heretic = + 3 damage for every devout Unit. Look at Crusaders and do the numbers – that is some nice damage.


    Basically, what is the Dread doing to the Theocrat, and here is the crux, that he can’t do to anyone else, to such an extent that the Theocrat is somehow helpless as people keep saying here?

    The Dread advantage is machines, specifically, imho, Cannons for long range damage (with Engineers for reload) and Golem to tank for the Cannons and Engineers.

    Flametanks are nice but they are shortrange, and can usually be outmanouvred, or simply swarmed.

    Now this advantage translates into every Dread versus x matchup.

    For example, Necro versus Dread raises many of the same points, with some additions:

    Banshee’s wail has a chance to cause haywire, which stuns machines.

    Necro T4 is pretty hard countered by machines, much more so than Theocrat (no invoke death for a start)

    Golems can tank Bone Collectors.

    Deathbringers can’t leverage ghoul curse on machines, and will get fried by Flame Tanks.

    Imho, Necro has a far harder time against Dreads, and that’s just unit wise.

    EDIT: Possible derail, but just for fun, I’m doing an XL map as a Dwarf Theocrat, with earth Master and Water spec.

    Should be entertaining. With 7 AI Emperors, for sure one will be a Dread.

Viewing 30 posts - 91 through 120 (of 366 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.