Theocrat endgame

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This topic contains 1,253 replies, has 52 voices, and was last updated by  Ericridge 6 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #203177

    LordTyrael
    Member

    Will forever be a bad experience without Armageddon?

    Crusader is wonderful T2 unit but there comes a point when the noble warriors can’t do much. Exalted well is nerfed and never was an endgame answer.
    . Shrine of smithing needs some help, class units are not up to it so i must put my faith in t3 racial units, and nothing but Firstborns is going to do well against dreadnoughts.

    What if there was a new skill to research, only for endgame. Something like this, Call to Arms. Crusaders get 10hp/2 additional dps. Exalted and martyrs get 5hp and 2 defense. Evangelist 1defense 4 dps. This would be like 2000 rp, what do you guys think?

    #203180

    Bouh
    Member

    Ok, so you are actualy talking about theocrat versus dreadnought matchup. And late game matchup without armageddon. We are starting to pile on special cases here.

    Then add the “no racial units, because it’s boring”.

    I guess we shouldn’t talk about specializations either ?

    Don’t you think you are asking a lot ?

    What could be a good experience versus a late game dreadnought without racial units or armageddon or specialization stuff in your opinion ?

    #203185

    Zaskow
    Member

    Will forever be a bad experience without Armageddon?

    Crusader is wonderful T2 unit but there comes a point when the noble warriors can’t do much. Exalted well is nerfed and never was an endgame answer.
    . Shrine of smithing needs some help, class units are not up to it so i must put my faith in t3 racial units, and nothing but Firstborns is going to do well against dreadnoughts.

    What if there was a new skill to research, only for endgame. Something like this, Call to Arms. Crusaders get 10hp/2 additional dps. Exalted and martyrs get 5hp and 2 defense. Evangelist 1defense 4 dps. This would be like 2000 rp, what do you guys think?

    Theocrat strength against other classes, except Dread is almost okish.
    Exalted is a piece of crap, really, but Shrines with massed devout support are incredible thing (getting 70 pts of damage in sum from one salvo isn’t problem).
    In case of Dread Theo suffers. In most cases you will be wiped out before research Armageddon.
    I think this must be addressed somehow, because Theocrat hasn’t no real options against machines. Even Necromancer has Collectors with 2xDemolishers and Banshee with Haywire which are really heplful.

    #203191

    ZHN_AK
    Member

    What’s wrong with rot and wreck, for example?

    #203194

    There are very useful crusader variants. Dwarves have dwarf toughness and defensive strike, tigrans crusaders have sun shield (add dread for fire immunity), and goblins do have demolisher. Devout axemen en mass with two medals, or fire damage draconian crusaders (either dragon ancestry or the rg upgrade) are also good.

    It is a tough match up, but you get a generalized +3 from heretic, so it isn’t that impossible.

    #203209

    Zaskow
    Member

    What’s wrong with rot

    Destruction master which isn’t very common and useful as new master specializations.

    and wreck, for example?

    Low damage and weakening for blight which isn’t common type of damage for Theocrat.

    Also Theocrat must have his own tricks against machines just as Necro has.

    There are very useful crusader variants. Dwarves have dwarf toughness and defensive strike, tigrans crusaders have sun shield (add dread for fire immunity), and goblins do have demolisher. Devout axemen en mass with two medals, or fire damage draconian crusaders (either dragon ancestry or the rg upgrade) are also good.

    Crusader are slow and can be easily fried by fire tanks and shoot down from safe distance by cannons.

    #203210

    LordTyrael
    Member

    I admit my main endgame problem is dreadnought, i dont like the class to be reliant on racial units of an fire alignment for a victory chance. I’d like there to be an innate class answer. Armaggedon is the answer but a disjunct before a critical major battle and im done for, this will not happen for the Global Assault spell and the warlord melee armies (theo melee class) some sort of passive help would be nice, can even come after armaggedon research, like rogue and dark pact.

    The matchup dreadnougt against theocrat is the worst possible i can find, necro have more tools dealing with theocrat. Some sort of help at least, if not my general idea would be very appreciated.

    #203211

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    I usually rely on the race units to deal with machines. That doesn’t necessarily make it easy but many of them offer a lot more oomph against machines than the theocrat specific units do.

    That having been said I really hate that balance relies on end game spells like Armageddon. I don’t like that the only way for the theocrat to break spirit immunity / resistance is that spell. The new shield of light is somewhat helpful but I think the exalted could’ve used a debuff that removed a bit of spirit resistance from surrounding units. They had stunning touch that, although unthematic, was a decent tool for dealing with machines. Now they lost that in favour of a rather weak alternative that does nothing to machines. I hate to complain so much but that change was absolutely terrible balance wise. This was heavily discussed in the exalted thread so I’ll leave it at that.

    #203212

    LordTyrael
    Member

    I agree wit Zaskow, crusaders dont last long against concentrated dreadnough barrages, dwarf with meteoric and forgepriests is the exception
    . The healers dies faster than the crusaders and in melee a golem will beat my crusaders when they lost hp.

    #203218

    ZHN_AK
    Member

    Rot is a water adept spell. Not that hard to pick.

    It is good that a class is not equally well equipped to fight each class. Specializations are there to even the playing field.

    #203219

    Absorb pain exalted and crusaders do pretty fine and dandy. And tigrans with sun shield and a well chosen hero are immune to fire. Dracs with elders also have high resistance.

    Grey guard mastery gets you cardinal culling, and shadowborn shock damage, so there are many specializations that help with machines. As these are some of the best for theocrats anyway, I don’t see any balance issue. Theocrats have a great early mid game (probably the best in pbem), so what if they struggle late against the strongest long game class?

    #203225

    LordTyrael
    Member

    It’s ok for there to be hard matchups, i think this one is too much in favor of the dreadnought. Is necro having equal problems with theocrat?

    #203227

    Zaskow
    Member

    Rot is a water adept spell. Not that hard to pick.

    So? What if you don’t know who is your enemy? Do you choose Water adept every time? Sorry, but Water adept is the crappiest adept in game.

    Absorb pain exalted and crusaders do pretty fine and dandy.

    Absorb pain exalted couldn’t be got reliable, especially in MP with autobattles.

    And tigrans with sun shield and a well chosen hero are immune to fire.

    Cannons, Golems and Juggernauts.

    Grey guard mastery gets you cardinal culling, and shadowborn shock damage, so there are many specializations that help with machines.

    Necro (and others) has decent answers for machine problem regardless chosen specializations.
    Rogue – Sabotage on heroes and scoundrels.
    Necro – Collectors and Banshee.
    Druid – Rust strike.
    Sorcerer – massed shock damage and stun.
    Warlord – no dedicated skills or spells, but he doesn’t rely on damage channel which doesn’t work on machines.

    It’s ok for there to be hard matchups, i think this one is too much in favor of the dreadnought. Is necro having equal problems with theocrat?

    In most cases Necros don’t. Necro has a few fine direct anti-theocrat spells and skills.

    #203229

    LordTyrael
    Member

    The problem is when the battle is lost and absorb pain exalted cant be replaced easily, not an answer for the endgame and machine hordes.

    #203236

    ZHN_AK
    Member

    Of course I do not pick water adept every time. I pick it if I expect to need it, as if I play some class & race combo that is weak to undead or machines. Or I pick destruction master to get wreck among the other goodies. Why shouldn’t I have to adjust to the weaknesses and strengths of my class and race picks?

    #203239

    Zaskow
    Member

    Why shouldn’t I have to adjust to the weaknesses and strengths of my class and race picks?

    This is not answer.
    I can choose Necro/Rogue/Druid/etc and any random specs and have 0 problems against Dread.

    #203244

    ZHN_AK
    Member

    The answer is, that every single class and race have its own weaknesses. Of course there are plenty of options that do not need wreck or rot against dreadnoughts. They have a weakness towards other things and have to adjust to them. For example, some warlord players pick air adept in order to get flying scouts.

    AoW is a game of rock-paper-scissors. You don’t get to have a shotgun instead of the scissors. You can make your scissors a bit more hardy with water adept or destruction mastery, in this case.

    #203246

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Dwarves with Meteorite Armor has no problem v. Dreadnought. But that does limit your game-play option obviously – not to mention that it’s an extremely late game solution, depending on the game setting.

    I return to my perennial claim that Theocrat needs a T3 bruiser; it’s the only class other than Dreadnought (which isn’t a melee army) that doesn’t have it.

    #203248

    Capirex
    Member

    Why shouldn’t I have to adjust to the weaknesses and strengths of my class and race picks?

    This is not answer.
    I can choose Necro/Rogue/Druid/etc and any random specs and have 0 problems against Dread.

    But you might have problems against other classes/races, right? I agree and understand it’s bad matchup but i think necro vs theo is worse, especially considering the early game economy of the necro.

    With the exception of maybe the sorcerer most classes have a bad matchup or a phase in the game where they are inferior to others.

    Maybe the Exalted could get something good against machines instead of dazzled at bronze, but other than that the theocrat seem in a pretty good spot overall to me.

    #203251

    Zaskow
    Member

    For example, some warlord players pick air adept in order to get flying scouts.

    Worst choice for Warlord with his new scouts. Ever.

    AoW is a game of rock-paper-scissors.

    Wrong. In Aow3 almost every class can beat other classes with less or more effectiveness. In case of Theo vs. Dread matches Theo can’t do anything most part of game unless you get and cast Armageddon.

    I return to my perennial claim that Theocrat needs a T3 bruiser; it’s the only class other than Dreadnought (which isn’t a melee army) that doesn’t have it.

    And here we returned to Exalted.

    #203252

    LordTyrael
    Member

    Yeah, dwarf is good enough, i don’t find that tigran or draconian crusaders can survive the physical damage part of dread longrange aoe fire.
    Their priests unlike forgepriests certainly wont. And golem takes care of any survivors that survived the gauntlet.

    #203255

    Zaskow
    Member

    But you might have problems against other classes/races, right? I agree and understand it’s bad matchup but i think necro vs theo is worse, especially considering the early game economy of the necro.

    Only against Theo, maybe and I’m not sure.
    For necro I can go to nearest Necro circle or tomb, control Death bringer and begin to ghoul everything. In this case worst economics (which is pretty debatable) doesn’t matter.

    #203259

    Dr_K
    Member

    I return to my perennial claim that Theocrat needs a T3 bruiser; it’s the only class other than Dreadnought (which isn’t a melee army) that doesn’t have it.

    Absolutely not. Completely unnecessary.

    In case of Theo vs. Dread matches Theo can’t do anything most part of game unless you get and cast Armageddon.

    I’ve never actually had to wait until casting armageddon to beat dreadnoughts in late game. It just requires you to utilize more mobile units than most of the class units.

    If it is really that problematic for people, why not just add Demolisher to the list of buffs for Great Purge, or something similar. Possibly at the cost of removing Dragon and Fey slayer, as any unit with those properties that isn’t from a dwelling has one of the other slayer properties.

    #203266

    Capirex
    Member

    Only against Theo, maybe and I’m not sure.
    For necro I can go to nearest Necro circle or tomb, control Death bringer and begin to ghoul everything. In this case worst economics (which is pretty debatable) doesn’t matter.

    This seem a bit too situational as an example, you aren’t guaranteed to find one in those sites and you don’t have a 100% chance to control one. If you get your hands on a pair of death bringers early on the other way things can change radically i agree, so i am not against removing them from random sites.

    #203278

    Zaskow
    Member

    I’ve never actually had to wait until casting armageddon to beat dreadnoughts in late game. It just requires you to utilize more mobile units than most of the class units.

    Dread can use mobile racial units too.

    If it is really that problematic for people, why not just add Demolisher to the list of buffs for Great Purge, or something similar. Possibly at the cost of removing Dragon and Fey slayer, as any unit with those properties that isn’t from a dwelling has one of the other slayer properties.

    Other classes get anti-machine options much earlier. Also Great Purge works only at Infantry and Cavalry.

    This seem a bit too situational as an example, you aren’t guaranteed to find one in those sites and you don’t have a 100% chance to control one. If you get your hands on a pair of death bringers early on the other way things can change radically i agree, so i am not against removing them from random sites.

    This is only one imba-strategy.
    Honestly, I don’t understand massed complains on Necro economics on these forums. Every time as necro I have sufficient funds to develop cities and buy units enough. I can settle cities everywhere. I can migrate any ghoul kind without morale penalties.

    #203285

    Bob5
    Member

    So? What if you don’t know who is your enemy? Do you choose Water adept every time? Sorry, but Water adept is the crappiest adept in game.

    When I play Tigrans I sometimes pick Water Adept to cover their weak sea skills, Baby Krakens can offer some actual fighting power on the sea which Tigrans completely lack while Freeze Water allows me to in some cases avoid embarking altogether. Rot covers the machines that don’t want to bleed and are immune to spirit damage.

    Honestly, I don’t understand massed complains on Necro economics on these forums. Every time as necro I have sufficient funds to develop cities and buy units enough. I can settle cities everywhere. I can migrate any ghoul kind without morale penalties.

    Early game they’ve got troubles. In my experience Necromancers really lack mana in early game, having to spend loads of mana on upkeep of Lost Souls and Undead Plague. Especially the first 20 or so turns. It gets better after they get Shrines of Unlife and a bunch of Shrines everywhere, but Necromancers grow slower, they lack happiness boosts in cities, and their scout costs the most mana upkeep of all scout summons, and needs to be summoned in abundance as it covers both scouting and battle roles. You need it as cannon fodder in early game before you get that massive survive ability boost with Healers of the Dead.

    #203288

    Capirex
    Member

    This is only one imba-strategy.
    Honestly, I don’t understand massed complains on Necro economics on these forums. Every time as necro I have sufficient funds to develop cities and buy units enough. I can settle cities everywhere. I can migrate any ghoul kind without morale penalties.

    I think it’s also a matter of how fast you can develop them, my impression is that developing necro cities takes more time, they on avarage need more infrastucture, grow slower and they are less productive than others because of no way of influencing their happiness.

    By the way i am not complaining about them, just making considerations.

    #203309

    Zaskow
    Member

    Early game they’ve got troubles. In my experience Necromancers really lack mana in early game, having to spend loads of mana on upkeep of Lost Souls and Undead Plague. Especially the first 20 or so turns.

    Sorc and Druid too. This depends from your starting conditions and luck mostly.

    You need it as cannon fodder in early game before you get that massive survive ability boost with Healers of the Dead.

    I prefer to use Cadavers as cannon fodder and free scouts. Reanimators are pretty enough to support you army in good health.

    abundance as it covers both scouting and battle roles

    IMAO, souls are terrible scouts. Expensive, slow, low visible range.

    I think it’s also a matter of how fast you can develop them, my impression is that developing necro cities takes more time

    It depends. You can be the first with metropolis easily when using Undead Plague.

    Ok, go on topic.

    I think Theo needs at least one relatively early option against machines.
    1. Maybe some special battle enchantment or one target spell inflicts 40-60% spirit weakness on machines only.
    2. One target ability like Weakening.
    3. Hero’s ability for party like “Machine crusher” that giving Demolisher for all.
    4. I suggested to give Exalted Inflict Haywire.
    5. Imperial upgrade puts Demolisher on some unit lines (Support, Infantry, Cavalry).
    6. Make one units from Theo roster decent machine killer, like Bone collector.

    #203318

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Honestly, I don’t understand massed complains on Necro economics on these forums. Every time as necro I have sufficient funds to develop cities and buy units enough. I can settle cities everywhere. I can migrate any ghoul kind without morale penalties.

    We really are playing a different game. I have trouble with Necro every game.

    #203328

    quo
    Member

    The answer is, that every single class and race have its own weaknesses

    Not nearly to the degree of the Dreadnought/Theocrat matchup. That is truly ludicrously in favor of the Dreadnought. Now even more so due to the Exalted nerf.

    IMO the problem is actually the design of Dreadnoughts. They have one too many Machine units. One of the T3s should have been a humanoid unit that is capable of being affected by spirit and blight abilities. Specifically, Convert/Seduce. Too little too late there, though/

    “Pick Water Adapt” is not a solution. Rot does not begin to cover the gap of having almost none of your offensive abilities work. The issue is the older design of Theocrats, hailing from an era when there were no spirit debuffs in the game at all except Armageddon. There isn’t any other class matchup where after the middle part of the game the only way to really succeed is to race for the end game spell. It’s really noticeable with this matchup and kind of ridiculous. I can beat the AI, but only by making a beeline.

    Also, although everyone has heard me say it before: Exalted are very poor units. The main people who think Resurgence is amazing are people who don’t play Theocrat that often as a main class. Exalted take up a space in the Theocrat lineup that *should* be where they get a counter to Machines and other Theocrats, based on the progression of those classes. Instead they get a nuisance unit that fails everywhere an Evangelist already would and results in a slaughter versus Dreads and the dullest, most boring combat possible with other Theocrats.

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