Theocrat endgame

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This topic contains 1,253 replies, has 52 voices, and was last updated by  Ericridge 6 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 511 through 540 (of 1,254 total)
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  • #207072

    Zaskow
    Member

    Do you even play this game to say that one defense point is worthless ?

    In case of tough machines yes, it’s worthless. I showed you calculations how much damage Rot inflicts in case of Golem.

    Yes he can. The warlord doesn’t need elemental melee units to fight the dreadnought, and so does the theocrat.

    Are you really so blind to see that most part of Warlord damage is PHYSICAL? All units of warlord always inflict full amount of damage, while Theocrat partial.

    #207073

    LordTyrael
    Member

    Do you even play this game to say that one defense point is worthless ?

    It’s almost worthless in this case, not going to help Human knight win a battle against Juggernaut and support. So you cast rot when harrasing Golems in the city battle but he casts cardinal culling, chocking fumes, then what? Where is your disjunct, dispel cast?

    #207077

    LordTyrael
    Member

    Are you really so blind to see that most part of Warlord damage is PHYSICAL? All units of warlord always inflict full amount of damage, while Theocrat partial.

    And warlord units are 20% less expensive, cavalry have more hp and T4 unit is fast powerful and like you say inflicts full damage. This is better than mark of the heretic cavalry because against a Dreadnought endurance is required to reach the ranged army alive.

    With Armageddon, i had lots of human knights and cast holy war, think i won vs massed machines without Great mobilization?(I used the speed advantage, skeptic argue over and attacked the less powerful stacks) I lost. Mortar is big damage, Bombard vs melee units trying to take down a juggernaut and flame tanks + cannons working in tandem. I barely survive using T4 units against it, how is racial T3 supposed to live through that?

    #207094

    Dr_K
    Member
    #207095

    Yeah that one

    #207096

    Bouh
    Member

    Eagle rider can also annihilate the full might of Exalted, faster/ranged attack and area of effect charge with no retaliation, deadly with backstabb. Eagle rider is also very lucky, best is 38% luck chance, can counter daze with that and elemental damage from the exalted like this shiny new buff, zealot. And there is production, exalted is more expensive and exalted martyr cant be the entire stacks, when they die are harder to replace. The less expensive eagle rider is produced with mana fuel cells, dreadnought can quickly replace and build faster and more units. Harras squad against harras squad meet over a lake, so Theocrat casts holy war, Dreadnought casts cardinal culling. Theocrat casts holy war and carindal culling, Dreadnought can still disjunct holy war.

    You are here saying that dreadnought don’t need machines to beat a theocrat. Nothing aimed at machines will help the theocrat in this case. I think you are losing yourself in exageration.

    Armageddon is casts, then Great mobilization is cast and Dreadnought still have the upper hand. Because even with Armageddon Dreadnought is not vulnerable to spirit damage, protected even by a small amount. The +stats and speed of the entire machine horde is going to overwhelm the slow Theocrat. Don’t use supports and healing, shrines and try to keep up with t3 racial cavalry against cavalry fast Juggernatus and their support units, not going to win regardless.

    Here, you are talking about very late game, making early game not happened, and ignoring guerilla tactics.

    The stat loss is not going to turn the battle in the Theocrats favor, it’s insignificant like the damage of the spell. Wasteful cast regardless of the need to convserve the cast for the Disjunction, cast Rot to no avail then become even more useless vs chocking fumes. Man, you have not really tested this, have you?

    I did. But what is the problem in extreme late game ? Killing juggernought ? Or beating the economic might of the dreadnought ? I think you fell here in the latter case. Of course a fully developed dreadnought with a dozen of fully developed cities and more cities than you will leave you no chance.

    Are you really so blind to see that most part of Warlord damage is PHYSICAL? All units of warlord always inflict full amount of damage, while Theocrat partial.

    Yes, because you can only build clas units. Say it again please. Racial units don’t exists. Nor do specializations.

    With Armageddon, i had lots of human knights and cast holy war, think i won vs massed machines without Great mobilization?(I used the speed advantage, skeptic argue over and attacked the less powerful stacks) I lost. Mortar is big damage, Bombard vs melee units trying to take down a juggernaut and flame tanks + cannons working in tandem. I barely survive using T4 units against it, how is racial T3 supposed to live through that?

    So there lies the problem. You lost one game to a dreadnought with human theocrat. And it’s obviously the game’s fault, not yours. You can build two T3 for the price of one T4. And you do have a better scouting and endurance, so better harassing power. Of course rogue and archdruid will do it better, but you do with what you have.

    Can you picture the state of the game you are talking about ? Again, a fully developed dreadnought with more economic power than you will be hard to beat of course. That’s true for any class but another dreadnought or a warlord. Only these two classes have the economic and military might to stand each other once fully developped. And even then I would favour the dreadnought, because AoE are handy when large armies splat each other. Is this the context you want to balance the game for ? Once everything is fully developped and the dreadnought already have his war economy and factories running like crazy ?

    What did you do before that ?

    Because that is how the game is balanced, and the only way to prevent this is to turn some empire upgrades into enchantments. Empire upgrades means that with time going on dreadnought and warlord *accumulate* power. And as cities also grow with time, they can produce more of their powerful units more easily. That is what define the flow of the game. By design warlord and dreadnought are slow to grow but unstopable once running.

    So I ask, what did you do before the dreadnought was unstopable ? And what was the state of the game you are talking that cause a problem ?

    And would another class be able to beat the dreadnought in this state ? Isn’t the problem coming from dreadnought units eventualy ?

    #207107

    CrazyElf
    Member

    Theocrat is the slowest army besides Dreadnought and Theocrat does not have the great holy mobilization. Armageddon makes Theocrat spirit damage viable but Great mobilization makes Dreadnought almost impossible hard regardless of Armageddon, machine will even regenerate hp regardless of Armageddon, right?

    Yes but Theocrat has Armageddon, which is arguably more powerful than the Great Mobilization (which I would argue is one of the weaker ultimates). You get 80% spirit weakness to everything too, so machines now take spirit damage.

    Eagle rider can also annihilate the full might of Exalted, faster/ranged attack and area of effect charge with no retaliation, deadly with backstabb. Eagle rider is also very lucky, best is 38% luck chance, can counter daze with that and elemental damage from the exalted like this shiny new buff, zealot. And there is production, exalted is more expensive and exalted martyr cant be the entire stacks, when they die are harder to replace. The less expensive eagle rider is produced with mana fuel cells, dreadnought can quickly replace and build faster and more units. Harras squad against harras squad meet over a lake, so Theocrat casts holy war, Dreadnought casts cardinal culling. Theocrat casts holy war and carindal culling, Dreadnought can still disjunct holy war.

    IMO, Exalted may be one of the best flying units. It certainly will not lose to Eagle Rider in a straight up fight. (Higher damage once factoring in spirit + physical, which Eagle Rider I might remind you is not invulnerable to – even more so with Armageddon).

    The Frostling Rider even has frost weapons, giving another channel of attack.

    You assume a one versus one tiny map, and miss the rest of the game.

    Theocrat has arguably the best early to mid game of all the classes – in exchange for a somewhat worse end game (hampered somewhat be the mobility of the Shrine).

    But even then, I’d argue that Armageddon is one of the better ultimate abilities and with Armageddon, it’s still competitive.

    The other consideration you have not discussed is where Theocrat is stronger than Dreadnought – it’s very melee heavy and if it closes the distance (ex: in an open field battle), it will gain the advantage.

    Dreadnought is only great at a distance bombarding (so good on walls). That advantage is nullified considerably against enemies that can pass walls (or float).

    Divine Vengeance for example is one of the most powerful – actually possibly the most most powerful – AOE attack in the game with a pretty wide radius. Against machines with a lightning weakness, it works very well (although admittedly both sides are weak to each other – DN to lightning, and Shrine to DN’s fire attacks).

    #207111

    CrazyElf
    Member

    Also equally worth mentioning is that Devout units are immune to Shrine’s Vengeance, which is an advantage over other AOE attacks where they have to watch for friendly fire.

    Dragons I suppose have weaker AOE attacks per attack, but can use it in front, and I would argue easier to use (it’s one thing I noted when I pointed out that the Juggernaut was weak). Then again, you cannot mass produce dragons unless you are incredibly luck with Dragon Habitats so it’s largely a moot point.

    Oh and ever see Armageddon with a Golden Dragon? The firepower is quite impressive.

    #207124

    NuMetal
    Member

    @lordtyrael:

    I know you dislike Bouh by now but don’t let this blind you towards what he is saying. And in this case his points are very important to understand:

    1. Different Classes peak at different parts of the game. (and the very late game belongs to the Warlord and Dreadnaught)

    2. Classes don’t have to do equally well against all other classes. There will always be a worst and a best matchup. (And for the Theocrat the Dreadnaught is the worst matchup)

    3. Classes have to be complemented with races and specializations. (That means a Warlord does not only have physical damage)

    #207128

    Epaminondas
    Member

    @lordtyrael:

    I know you dislike Bouh by now but don’t let this blind you towards what he is saying. And in this case his points are very important to understand:

    1. Different Classes peak at different parts of the game. (and the very late game belongs to the Warlord and Dreadnaught)

    2. Classes don’t have to do equally well against all other classes. There will always be a worst and a best matchup. (And for the Theocrat the Dreadnaught is the worst matchup)

    3. Classes have to be complemented with races and specializations. (That means a Warlord does not only have physical damage)

    A nice summary.

    #207132

    LordTyrael
    Member

    @lordtyrael:

    I know you dislike Bouh by now but don’t let this blind you towards what he is saying. And in this case his points are very important to understand:

    1. Different Classes peak at different parts of the game. (and the very late game belongs to the Warlord and Dreadnaught)

    2. Classes don’t have to do equally well against all other classes. There will always be a worst and a best matchup. (And for the Theocrat the Dreadnaught is the worst matchup)

    3. Classes have to be complemented with races and specializations. (That means a Warlord does not only have physical damage)

    1. I don’t want to see that changed, i am only arguing for Theocrat being less handicapped against the spirit immunity. In the case of Warlord against rogue incorporeal, there is one unit in the Shadowstalker, but all machines are spirit immun, from the T2 golem to the T4 juggernaut. I don’t think a buff of the sort people here proposed to the shrine, threatens the full unleashed Dreadnought endgame armies in any signficant way. The post by Bouh in the early page(on a platter) is irrational if one understands the power of endgame Dreadnoughts. Therefore, I emphasize this Dreadnought power to provide a perspective on Theocrat shrine buff, of not being irrational but good for the game. Through the one versus one tiny map glasses, where some leveled up exalted stacks makes the Dreadnought type GG is never going to realize a buff is in order.

    #207135

    quo
    Member

    2. Classes don’t have to do equally well against all other classes. There will always be a worst and a best matchup. (And for the Theocrat the Dreadnaught is the worst matchup)

    While this is somewhat true, it is also true that matchups are supposed to be interesting. What is interesting about fighting a Theocrat when you are playing a Dreadnought? He can’t do anything to me. It drops the difficulty level by at least two AI levels. When I play Dreadnought, I hand pick my opponents to avoid ending up fighting Theocrats. There is just no strategy at all to fighting them, no particular units to avoid, nothing to do but just roll over them. There are participants in this thread suggesting I should be scared of the Rot spell, but since I can deal with this spell coming from a Warlord or Rogue, dealing with a Theocrat forced to fight me with none of this good offensive abilities is a shoe-in. Emperor difficulty is more like Lord.

    It’s not at all like being a Theocrat fighting a Necromancer. The Necro is at a bit of a disadvantage. But he can still do things to mess me up.

    Tha fact is, Iif the logic of some people in this thread was applied to Theo/Necro matchups, the Necro would have none of the abilities it has vs Theocrats or Dreadnoughts. Thankfully, the developers saw how dull that would be and stepped in.

    #207140

    LordTyrael
    Member

    2. I agree, not asking for that anyways. So, shrine is given some extra utility in the buff, != Theocrat is suddenly able to compare to the Dreadnought endgame. Let’s say this could be tried in a closed beta patch, before any public changes. Who would be interested in finding out if we are wrong , or right?

    3. But the case with Theocrat against Dreadnought is so empty in class options against machines, race becomes the decisive thing(Dwarf) because there is nothing dedicated to fight machines for the spirit based class that has all spirit damage ignored, it’s brutal.

    #207147

    NuMetal
    Member

    1. I don’t want to see that changed, i am only arguing for Theocrat being less handicapped against the spirit immunity.

    I know you don’t want to change that and I didn’t want to imply that 🙂
    But you still need to consider this and the second point to see that this is the worst possible scenario imaginable (worst matchup + part of the game that favors your opponent) and so it’s not really what we should balance the game around.
    Yes, all machines have spirit immunity. But even a Dreadnaught takes quite some time until he has many machines and till than everything the Theocrat has works perfectly fine against him. In a 1v1 a Dreadnaught will just have to be killed as early as possible.
    I do know that there are other modes but FFA is the one mode you just can’t balance anything around because everything depends on luck there. One player has bad luck and is being attacked by two other players at once and another player isn’t being attacked at all and can develop freely.
    Also in a 1v1 even on XL maps you can beat a Dreadnaught easily before he has many machines. The Theocrat rules the early (early/mid) game so that’s the point of the game where he should win or at least have enough impact to be advantaged for the late game.

    All that said I would still not mind a Haywire effect added to the AoE of the Shrine. It wouldn’t affect any other matchup and the Theocrat would still be disadvantaged enough in this very worst scenario he can be in.

    I don’t think a buff of the sort people here proposed to the shrine, threatens the full unleashed Dreadnought endgame armies in any signficant way.

    Agreed if you are talking about the Haywire idea.
    However the change of the damage channels is another thing entirely since it affects every matchup and will have bigger consequences because of it…

    Through the one versus one tiny map glasses, where some leveled up exalted stacks makes the Dreadnought type GG is never going to realize a buff is in order.

    This is doing many of us unjustice.
    I for example play exclusively L and XL maps with always 7 Emperor AIs (sometimes FFA, sometimes 2v2v2v2, sometimes 4v3vMe and so on and so forth) and I don’t have the issues that you have.
    We simply have different playstyles and my games tend to be won long before such issues arise.
    So if I (or any other person for this matter) don’t see things the way you do that might just be a result of having different playstyles and therefore experiencing these things differently.
    I know for a fact that many of the people that have been posting here (including the ones disagreeing) also do play large maps and on higher difficulties.

    #207148

    Epaminondas
    Member

    LordTyrael,

    You sometimes need to get satisfied with what you got. The exalted buff was substantial, while the Evangelist buff was not. It’s much more than I expected. So let’s just sit back and see how the changes work out, before going for more. As is, some of your are prolonging this thread by rehashing stuff that brings no new light and won’t change any opposed views.

    #207153

    NuMetal
    Member

    While this is somewhat true, it is also true that matchups are supposed to be interesting. What is interesting about fighting a Theocrat when you are playing a Dreadnought? He can’t do anything to me.

    I only read this after writing the reply to LordTyrael so sorry for my lazyness 😉

    Yes, all machines have spirit immunity. But even a Dreadnaught takes quite some time until he has many machines and till than everything the Theocrat has works perfectly fine against him. In a 1v1 a Dreadnaught will just have to be killed as early as possible.
    I do know that there are other modes but FFA is the one mode you just can’t balance anything around because everything depends on luck there. One player has bad luck and is being attacked by two other players at once and another player isn’t being attacked at all and can develop freely.
    Also in a 1v1 even on XL maps you can beat a Dreadnaught easily before he has many machines. The Theocrat rules the early (early/mid) game so that’s the point of the game where he should win or at least have enough impact to be advantaged for the late game.

    #207155

    Bouh
    Member

    The post by Bouh in the early page(on a platter) is irrational if one understands the power of endgame Dreadnoughts.

    So I ask, what did you do before the dreadnought was unstopable ? And what was the state of the game you are talking that cause a problem ?

    And would another class be able to beat the dreadnought in this state ? Isn’t the problem coming from dreadnought units eventualy ?

    #207162

    Thankfully, the developers saw how dull that would be and stepped in.

    It was the other way around actually, at the start anyway. Necromancers were super ridiculously strong.

    #207165

    As is, some of your are prolonging this thread by rehashing stuff that brings no new light and won’t change any opposed views.

    But, I’m sure we can get to 20 pages.

    Here’s a random insult to spark things up again.

    Epaminondas is a noob.

    #207166

    Ericridge
    Member

    And would another class be able to beat the dreadnought in this state ? Isn’t the problem coming from dreadnought units eventualy ?

    Warlords. They can mow down a juggernaut spamming dreadnought if they have numberical superiority and is battling a 1v1 battle against dreadnought. I remember watching a warlord win it’s battles and capture cities from the dreadnought due to huge mass of elite manticores so I jumped into the war and split the warlord’s forces in two and the AI dreadnought was able to recover and go on counterattacks. Although that is using AI’s King level of resources XD

    but in pvp?

    I’m certain that Warlords, Sorcerers, Dreadnoughts can beat a late game dreadnought easily enough. Especially more if Warlord is specced into Air and has plenty of warbreeds to use. Windward can really make a dreadnought cry hard.

    And plus, Endgame strategy of Dreadnought is generally to produce the overwhelming mass of machines to grind it’s enemies down into ground. Dreadnought is really similar to warlord’s class.

    And plus it is up to the player’s in the map to realize if the Dreadnought managed to gain an dominant position and team up on him until he becomes weak again. If the players choose to bicker and not cooperate, well, Dreadnought has likely won at that point because dreadnought’s enemies took divided approach and so they shall fall apart.

    It isn’t dreadnought’s fault that he won because his enemies choose to not team up against him. Not his problem. Teaming up against a runaway is one of oldest strategy in the book and I still see people taking self centered approach and die alone.

    I saw this happen all the time in Civ5. Every single AI tend to treat themselves as alone and throw it’s forces into a war against a runaway and die horribly instead of splitting up the runaway’s forces. Again and again and again. It’s kind of sad sight to see to see pathetic forces fight against overwhelming odds just because they refuse to think about teamwork.

    If your game prohibits alliances well, the dreadnought have chosen the game rules wisely to his advantage by holding out until endgame!

    Best example of what i’m talking about? Go play Taming the Khan Scenario. You will learn that you need allies to win against runaways. Its good.

    #207179

    Epaminondas
    Member

    But, I’m sure we can get to 20 pages.

    Here’s a random insult to spark things up again.

    Epaminondas is a noob.

    BBB is an in house fanboy/flunky! 😉

    #207214

    Zaskow
    Member

    2. Classes don’t have to do equally well against all other classes. There will always be a worst and a best matchup. (And for the Theocrat the Dreadnaught is the worst matchup)

    Such reasoning of balance makes duels (most popular setting in MP) pointless.

    #207223

    But, I’m sure we can get to 20 pages.

    Here’s a random insult to spark things up again.

    Epaminondas is a noob.

    BBB is an in house fanboy/flunky! 😉

    How is that an insult?

    This is an insult.

    Back on topic:

    NuMetal wrote:
    2. Classes don’t have to do equally well against all other classes. There will always be a worst and a best matchup. (And for the Theocrat the Dreadnaught is the worst matchup)
    Such reasoning of balance makes duels (most popular setting in MP) pointless.

    The conclusion there is debatable, but even assuming that is the case, the game is set up that way, and nothing short of a complete redesign will help you here.

    Going back to the older games, races also had best and worst matchups.

    I find it refreshing and good that as a player you never know what the other guy has, so you need to be on your toes and think ahead.

    For example, Human ArchDruid or Sorceror is an excellent general choice precisely because of this element of the Unknown, as you will always have something to fight with here.

    However, if you knew for sure your enemy was a Necromancer or Theocrat, then you might want to be a Dreadnought, but if your enemy knows that you are thinking this, he might anticipate you choosing Dreadnought and go for Warlord, but then you might be that one step ahead…and pick Sorceror!

    Yomi.

    Anyway, I had an idea, which might just work:

    Mark of the heretic/denounce heretic to inflict 20% spirit weakness for the duration.

    There you go, Theocrats reliance on spirit is not so hard countered, but depends on the Theocrat player using what he has well (spell and Evangelists) which allows counterplay (decoy stacks, cannons and general ranged troops, who can still hurt from afar).

    Thoughts?

    #207232

    slashman
    Member

    I like the 20% spirit weakness. It should make all Theo units more effective. As long as it doesn’t create a problem for other classes against the Theo, I think it could work.

    My only other suggestion was to make the massive AoE of the Shrines either not harm friendlies or only do half damage to them. Or change it to a chain-lightning effect emanating from a single target which would hit friendlies if they are in the way.

    #207233

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    *Sigh*
    I was trying the hole time to get the idea across that Shrine attack might inflict Spirit Weakness against Machines – obviously a late game buff.

    However, I don’t understand the Theocrat whining at all actually – Dreads should be their opponent #1 at every managable game stage. What is a Rogue supposed to say? You decide to play a Goblin Rogue for the heck of it – and the map is full of Dreadnoughts and Necromancers. Either you win ASAP (and with ASAP I mean really quick) or you’ll look rather silly there. Even if you picked Destruction.

    So people should the hell quit whining – convert everything that has low res, good defense and high damage and smite the abominations. Kill them before they grow, is what the late Bob Marley sang. Right he were!

    #207239

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Anyway, I had an idea, which might just work:

    Mark of the heretic/denounce heretic to inflict 20% spirit weakness for the duration.

    There you go, Theocrats reliance on spirit is not so hard countered, but depends on the Theocrat player using what he has well (spell and Evangelists) which allows counterplay (decoy stacks, cannons and general ranged troops, who can still hurt from afar).

    Thoughts?

    Love this idea. Just implement!

    #207241

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Kill them before they grow, is what the late Bob Marley sang. Right he were!

    This is not always practicable, depending on map settings.

    #207245

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    Kill them before they grow, is what the late Bob Marley sang. Right he were!

    Yes but he also sang about being iron like a lion in Zion; a Tigran Dreadnought in a holy place, the promised land.

    #207259

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    It’s a Tigran alright, but obviously a Sphinx, so he advises to smite the godless infidels as a Tigran Theo using Sphinxes, wise man that he was. 🙂

    #207264

    slashman
    Member

    The Sphinxes are actually cheetahs though, not lions.

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