Theocrat endgame

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This topic contains 1,253 replies, has 52 voices, and was last updated by  Ericridge 6 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #207269

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Heresy! Nothing but heresy!

    #207284

    ephafn
    Member

    Anyway, I had an idea, which might just work:

    Mark of the heretic/denounce heretic to inflict 20% spirit weakness for the duration.

    There you go, Theocrats reliance on spirit is not so hard countered, but depends on the Theocrat player using what he has well (spell and Evangelists) which allows counterplay (decoy stacks, cannons and general ranged troops, who can still hurt from afar).

    Thoughts?

    Love this idea. Just implement!

    I had to post just for this: this is a truly horrible idea. And I am certain of that statement, even if I only play SP and I almost never reach late-game.

    How can I be so sure? Here is why:
    This change would make Theocrats stronger against units that it is already decent or good against (those with limited or no spirit resistance), while having a reduced impact against units it is weak against (those with strong or complete spirit resistance). Going from 100% spirit resist to 80% spirit resist makes a few points of spirit damage from dual channel units goes through and that’s pretty much it. Those units/spells who use heavy spirit damage are still going to be useless (and thus not worth bringing to the fight/spending turns to use). However, those are still worth bringing/using against non-spirit-resistant targets, who will be made even more vulnerable by the -20% debuff.

    (On that note, I would say that the Exalted buff fails for a similar reason of being better or at least as good against non-dreadnoughts than against dreadnoughts. But still like it for pure thematic reasons. And maybe the Exalted needed a buff anyway. Not that I’m competent in that matter.)

    (For a purely theory-crafting point of view, I support the Haywire proposal for shrines, as it is nearly a pure anti-dreadnoughts buff.)

    #207302

    *Sigh*
    I was trying the hole time to get the idea across that Shrine attack might inflict Spirit Weakness against Machines – obviously a late game buff.

    I know, but my twist on the the idea is that it is a little bit easier for the Theocrat, because, the more I play Theo and think about it, the Shrine on its own won’t be enough to turn the tide even if it did inflict spirit weakness.

    I think my idea is also very easy to implement and test, because heretic is an early game tech that remains consistently useful. Also, 20% spirit weakness will usually mean not a great deal of damage for the Theocrat anyway.

    Looking at the database, only Evangelists, Exalted and Shrines has spirit damage (and Cherubs, but I’m discounting that, as spirit weakness as proposed, i.e. 20% will result in literally one extra damage per attack from a Cherub) and their values are:

    8, 8 and 10 spirit damage.

    Against a Cannon (10 resistance), that will mean an extra (10+8) – 10 (base damage 8), +/- 20%, or 6-10 damage for the Evangelist and Exalted. That’s base damage, now, reduce that base damage by 80%, which is what I am proposing, that instead of 100% spirit immunity, being denounced as a heretic reduces that by 20%, leaving you with a good deal of protection, but stripping the invulnerability.

    So, final figure is 80% mitigates of 6 which is 1.2 damage(I believe this is rounded up, so let’s call it 2).

    So, every melee strike of an Evangelist or Exalted will result in an additional 2 damage (20% damage of the higher end value, i.e. 10, from the 6-10 range, leads to 2) per hit, which gives them something, but it hardly overpowering.

    Golem has one less resistance.
    Juggernaut one more.
    Flametank the same (10 resistance).

    So it basically gives 3 late(r) game Theocrat units more direct damage against Dreadnought units, but considering that the Dreadnought is the king of ranged damage, the survivability of those 3 is not increased whatsoever.

    A shrine with 5 Exalted as an escort, which is a pretty reasonable thing to expect imho, will be knocking out 20/20, so apply the formula above, against a single Juggernaut, and we get

    (10+20) – (11 – resistance value of a Juggernaut) = 19, +/- 20% = 15- 23 damage, now -80%, leaving 3 – 5 spirit damage ontop of the existing damage.

    Maths isn’t my strong point so I’m sure the numbers aren’t totally accurate, but they give an indication.

    If anything, this solution might still not be enough.

    This is ofcourse assuming anything is actually needed.

    My point is that this is an easily testable, minor thing that would help Theocrat against Dreadnoughts.

    It is also fitting with the general theme of Heretic denouncement, so ties in with something that a Theocrat will be using anyway.

    My only concern is that it might not help all that much against Dreadnoughts, but will help overmuch against anything that doesn’t have spirit immunity, i.e. an overbuff for the Theo against everyone else.

    A possible alternative is to use the Evangelist and develop their role as a debuff machine, by building on denounce heretic so that denounce heretic, to make up for the opportunity cost and limited, i.e. battle only, duration, should inflict various degrees of spirit weakness.

    The advantage of that is that it is easier to understand and makes Evangelists more of a Reanimator analogue.

    #207303

    Give Haywire to shrine of smithing regular and AoE attacks

    Give unavoidable Haywire to Smite.

    And give Demolisher(x2) to holy war.

    Give all theocrat units devout slayer via empire upgrade.

    This should be enough for dread vs theo and theo vs theo without affecting other matchups.

    #207304

    Ahh you posted the flaw in the idea before I did!

    (For a purely theory-crafting point of view, I support the Haywire proposal for shrines, as it is nearly a pure anti-dreadnoughts buff.)

    True, it does have that advantage. However, in my view, by the time your Shrines come out, going by the arguments in this thread, it’s actually too late for a Theocrat player anyway.

    Assuming equal development, Juggernauts will outfight Shrines it seems (not least as they can be massed!) so having the haywire ability on such a specific unit, that then requires that it be in the midst of the enemy, seems like it would be just too late…

    #207305

    LordTyrael
    Member

    I do know that there are other modes but FFA is the one mode you just can’t balance anything around because everything depends on luck there. One player has bad luck and is being attacked by two other players at once and another player isn’t being attacked at all and can develop freely.
    Also in a 1v1 even on XL maps you can beat a Dreadnaught easily before he has many machines. The Theocrat rules the early (early/mid) game so that’s the point of the game where he should win or at least have enough impact to be advantaged for the late game.

    Well the entire game has to take luck,randomness and bad luck into account. Critical disjunction and random spellbook, pickups and mystical sites and favorable terrain, hero item reward and races available to play with, dwellings.

    The standard setting is 4-6 players on a large map and so FFAs is a reality for many peoples, maybe even the majority? What else is there to balance for anyways, team battles?

    And then there is singleplayer. AI have bonuses on the harder difficulties and will tech, build machines much sooner than humans would in multiplayer, the spirit immunity abundance is either circumvented by the standard human vs human 1v1 or the game becomes a real chore, i’m not even going to say difficult but instead uninteresting, tedious, not like any other matchup i’ve experienced because this is the one with immunity on a grand scale.

    Anyway, I had an idea, which might just work:

    Mark of the heretic/denounce heretic to inflict 20% spirit weakness for the duration.

    There you go, Theocrats reliance on spirit is not so hard countered, but depends on the Theocrat player using what he has well (spell and Evangelists) which allows counterplay (decoy stacks, cannons and general ranged troops, who can still hurt from afar).

    Thoughts?

    This is a desirable general idea, i am not sure how much 20% would really help against machines but any change for the better is appreciated.

    #207306

    Give unavoidable Haywire to Smite.

    People are fond of the split channel idea, so one proposal could be that smite go to 10 fire, 10 spirit, 10 shock damage, making it more of a general use spell.

    #207308

    Dr_K
    Member

    8, 8 and 10 spirit damage.

    Only for Humans, incorrect in general. Exalted only get 4 Spirit in general. Human is the exception in this case and not the “Base + Mariner” Class unit.

    #207310

    @ Dr K, good point. I usually use Human class units as the base comparison, as they are the base race.

    I should have remembered that they get bonus stuff as Theos.

    #207313

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    On a serious level, I think, that there is an inconsistency in the elemental system.
    1) machines have living operators – OR some artificial intelligence at work – OR golems as crews?
    2) Blight is Poison but also rot, rust, aging…
    3) Spirit damage is somehow spiritual positive energy.

    So. Machines are immune against blight AND spirit – and that’s not possible.
    Undead, on the other hand are immune against blight and have a massive spirit weakness.

    First thing – shouldn’t machines be the other side of the machine/undead coin? Undead would be MASSIVELY (80%) resistant against Blight (for obvious reasons), and MASSIVELY (80%) vulnerable against spirit. There should also be a fire7water resistance/weakness relation (40/40?)and a slight shock resistance.
    Machines should be the opposite (a couple of living crews): spirit resistance 80%; SLIGHT Fire, shock, Frost and Blight WEAKNESS (If pressed I would give them nothing in shock).

    I mean, OF COURSE shpuld the Thecrat have a problem with the Dreadnought, but fare best against the Necro. WHAT ELSE?

    #207325

    quo
    Member

    Biggest thing when calculating Theocrat damage toward end game is not to forget to add Holy War in there. Holy War provides +10 Spirit damage. It is probably the most critical combat spell for a Theocrat to activate and the critical spell to disjunct if it gets cast.

    A Crusader for example deals 12 base Physical damage. With Holy War up, it’s 22. With Holy War and Armageddon on a unit with no Spirit protection, its around 30. Against Machines: without Armageddon the Crusader deals 12 Physical damage (no change). With both up, its about 20.

    The reason I have no fear of Theocrats as a Dreadnought is the Theocrat is balanced around being able to deal big damage late game. He’s a hybrid caster/warrior who can be a major threat to other players. However, I’m immune if I just disjunct Armageddon. If I fail to do this, I’m still only taking as much damage as a Necro bone machine, which was given its stats specifically as a counter for Theocrats. Like the Necromancer, I’m immune to Convert, Slayer’s Doubt, Power of the Word, but unlike him I am also immune to the Spirit damage. It feels like someone cranked the difficulty of the game down 2 or 3 notches. It’s too easy. It’s boring.

    If the Theocrat is really balanced against having a good early game vs Dreadnought, then it makes me question why Theocrats can give me so much hell to other slow buildup, initial low healing classes like Rogue and Necromancer. If it was really the case that (alleged) strong early game balances weak late game, why is this the case only for Theo v Dread specifically?

    #207335

    Fenraellis
    Member

    It was the other way around actually, at the start anyway. Necromancers were super ridiculously strong.

    Mmmm:
    — Undying in its original form <3
    — Ghoul Curse in its original form <3
    — Regrowth on Bone Collector(even in their otherwise MUCH weaker original form) <3
    — Weakening(or was it Gas?) Breath on Hero at lvl… 7(?) <3
    — +30% city economic bonus <3
    — Harbingers of Death in its original form <3 (although current Archliches are pretty awesome, too!)
    — Wailers(Banshees) and Reapers being classified as Support, meaning they gained Heal Undead… <3

    Aside from various tweaks to what it means to be a Ghoul, and to Ghoul Cities in general, I can’t think of too many other changes. Well, Vampiric Hunger used to not be Undead-only. Maybe Power Ritual, too?

    #207339

    slashman
    Member

    I would also be in favor of making the smiting prayer bolts 7 spirit 7 fire 6 electrical

    and then 2 2 1 per devout. That plus the Haywire buff to the AoE would be decent.

    #207370

    llfoso
    Member

    Shock makes no sense to me. Unless I view it as Zeus’ bolts. Ok nevermind it makes sense. 🙂

    I keep suggesting this and getting ignored, but what if word of power caused haywire?

    Another option, what if the great purge granted demolisher? After all, during a purge you have to smash some false idols and tear down some pagan temples don’t you?

    I think allowing some of the existing abilities to work on machines would solve these issues. Theo will still have a disadvantage, but at least will have tools to overcome it.

    #207374

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Sleeping about it – I think, bossting Theo versus machines is the wrong idea. To support this, think about Rogue against Necro. and compare with Theo against Dread.

    1) Theocrat SHOULD have a machine weakness (and strength against undead)
    2) Other classes have other weaknesses.

    What SHOULD be done, however, is a review of the general machine and undead vulnerabilities.
    For machines – yes, they ARE lifeless, but they also have operators; crews that load, move and fire them. So while they SHOULD have a high resistancy, 100% is probably not right in the first place.
    The same is true for Blight, mind you. Not only are there living operators – while poison may be ineffective, we are also talking about rot and rust and age. The wooden stuff, like Rams, shouldn’t even have that much blight protection, the metal things could have 80% as well. For the rest, the wooden stuff would be more vulnerable against fire, less against cold, while metal was the other way round (cold is bad for metal). Lastly shock – consider Wood: largely RESISTANT. Metal would be not so resistant.

    So machines should get a re-examination of their general resistancies and vulnerabilities.

    Imo, the undead’s resistancies and vulnerabilities have been set in a better way for the game, because they are not TOO extreme. I wonder, though, if the corporeal undead should have such a high blight resistance; I mean, bodies rot and fall apart, even if dead, and when they do, they become useless, right?

    That’s what I’d prefer. Instead of changing the Theocrat to something more profane – change Machines and undead to something slightly less extreme – it’s justifiable from the lore/physics, and if it helps the game …

    Also I would like to say, that I would GENERALLY prefer my offense in line with elemental stuff (Shrine doing ONLY Spirit damage) and my defense a little more balanced:
    look at incorporeal units: you’d think, they get 100 % physical resistance, but they have only 60, I think. That’s REASONABLE, because if they indeed had 100, they were a REALLY big pain for a lot of units, so in the interest of a better balance, defensive capabilities are “muted”.
    There are also things you COULD field: shouldn’t armored units have shock vulnerability? Yeah, but in that case no one wouldn’t bother, since it could become a liability, so we assume insulated armour.

    Same thing with machines: no reason to give them 100%, really, since that makes them too special, imo.

    Now, machines and undead have the problem, that they don’t have intrinsic regeneration. Keep in mind, Dreadnought got buffed here – and buffed in a way that makes machines less cumbersome to operate for Dread; that IS a reason to go down on resistancies, at least in my book. (It also seems, that machines for non-dreadnought classes are too often overlooked as solutions of specific problems, even though they are rather cheap, because of said reg problem: you basically need a Dreadnought hero to handle them or get throw-away tools).

    In this they are the same thing as undead (which you need a Necro for to handle).
    Imo, machine balancing should be done with a view on what has been done with undead.

    #207379

    Ericridge
    Member

    You dont need a dreadnought hero to man the trebuchets and battering rams. Just use them and replace them as they get destroyed.

    #207380

    NuMetal
    Member

    I had to post just for this: this is a truly horrible idea. And I am certain of that statement, even if I only play SP and I almost never reach late-game.

    How can I be so sure? Here is why:
    This change would make Theocrats stronger against units that it is already decent or good against (those with limited or no spirit resistance), while having a reduced impact against units it is weak against (those with strong or complete spirit resistance). Going from 100% spirit resist to 80% spirit resist makes a few points of spirit damage from dual channel units goes through and that’s pretty much it. Those units/spells who use heavy spirit damage are still going to be useless (and thus not worth bringing to the fight/spending turns to use). However, those are still worth bringing/using against non-spirit-resistant targets, who will be made even more vulnerable by the -20% debuff.

    This!!!

    The standard setting is 4-6 players on a large map and so FFAs is a reality for many peoples, maybe even the majority?

    I really don’t think that’s the standard setting. Also only because FFA is being played a lot (as I said I also really like playing it) it still doesn’t mean that you can balance anything around it. For every Dreadnaught player that is still alive in the end game and gives you troubles there have been four other dreadnaughts that have been properly defeated before they have been able to build even a single machine.

    I would also be in favor of making the smiting prayer bolts 7 spirit 7 fire 6 electrical

    The Theocrat has the Spirit Channel and he shouldn’t have an easy access to the other channels like that. Smite is good as it is.

    #207383

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    That’s what I said: “you need a Dreadnought hero to handle them or what you get are throw-away tools.”.

    The problem with the latter is, that their XP gain is wasted on them, which means, they are really a makeshift solution only without a fitting hero (or a “looted” Engineer).

    But that’s only a sideline of what I actually want to say:

    That it seems wrong to “fix” here and there all aong the classes to balance them against machines and undead. Better do it the other way round! Adjust machines and undead (to a much lesser extent; that went smoother) to being a bit less “extreme” in their resistancies and vulnerabilities!
    It’s ok, as long as everyone has only marginal access and a hard time to really make them usable (same with Archons, if you think about it), but since there is a Class built around them, it’s THAT CLASS that should be balanced around the rest, not all the other classes around them.

    Look at Necro: It’s not Theo that gets nerfed, it’s Bone Collector that gets buffed in Spirit.
    Same thing here: Theocrat is the antithesis of a Dreadnought, in more than one sense, and it does make sense that their powers stop at the cold reason that fuels machines; the latter SHOULD have some resistance (and strong will), but they shouldn’t be immune against everything, that’s not good for the game.
    You could have specific units that are, as some sort of “crown of that specific creation” (like Shadow Stalkers), but not as a general class treat.

    So I would like the devs to seriously brainstorm about general and specific machine resistancies and vulnerabilities in light of how they balanced undead.

    #207394

    Zaskow
    Member

    1) machines have living operators – OR some artificial intelligence at work – OR golems as crews?

    Only few machines have crews. Most machines controlled from the safe distance in magical way. Read the description of Flame tank for details.

    2) Blight is Poison but also rot, rust, aging…

    In game reality blight = poison. Devs didn’t want to go further.

    3) Spirit damage is somehow spiritual positive energy.

    Spiritual, but definitely not positive.

    Wood: largely RESISTANT. Metal would be not so resistant.

    Debatable. Compare modern stainless steel and wood. Also Dreads are big pro in metallurgy.

    1) Theocrat SHOULD have a machine weakness (and strength against undead)

    Yes, he should, but not most part of match.

    #207402

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Obviously Wood is resistant against shock, but vulnerable against Fire. With Metal it’s he other way round, at least on the steampunk level we are. Cold is pretty bad for metal because it gets brittle (especially considering that most metal machines work with Fire, except the Frost Tank which would work the other way round).
    Blight being poison only, makes things easier, but also more complicated. In that case a force is definitely missing…

    Now, with a view on the game and the fun, it would make a lot of sense to lift the GENERAL 100% immunities on unit types. If I’m not completely wrong, races have no complete immunities either, for much the same (balance) reasons, since the game then would get too much stone/scissor/paper like with nothing in-between.

    Classes are the same thing because of the Tech involved: if a class does a lot with a specific type of damage, it is fine when there are general better and weaker spots (Rogues being somewhat better against Elves but less than average against Goblins, for example), but that shouldn’t go too far.

    Now, you MIGHT say, that the greater class immunities od Dread was initially balanced for example by the awkwardness of machine regeneration/healing – but “awkward” is somewhat spoiling the fun, no matter how “balance” might be perceived, so smoothing out the downside for Dread is fine, but smoothing out the extremer downsides for the others should be fine as well.

    #207418

    Bouh
    Member

    Such reasoning of balance makes duels (most popular setting in MP) pointless.

    You know even chess is imbalanced because white start with one turn advantage. Your life must be miserable if you seek for such equality and sameness everywhere.

    Mark of the heretic/denounce heretic to inflict 20% spirit weakness for the duration.

    There you go, Theocrats reliance on spirit is not so hard countered, but depends on the Theocrat player using what he has well (spell and Evangelists) which allows counterplay (decoy stacks, cannons and general ranged troops, who can still hurt from afar).

    Thoughts?

    I think that would be overpowered for everything but machines.

    Jolly Joker wrote:

    Kill them before they grow, is what the late Bob Marley sang. Right he were!

    This is not always practicable, depending on map settings.

    If this isn’t practical, rely on guerilla and harassment. Even the theocrat can do it.

    And again saying that theocrat have nothing effective against dreadnought is a falacy. So stop saying this. Only a handful of spells are inneffective against machines, and dreadnought doesn’t only use machines.

    I think my idea is also very easy to implement and test, because heretic is an early game tech that remains consistently useful. Also, 20% spirit weakness will usually mean not a great deal of damage for the Theocrat anyway.

    It will, because of smite and slayer’s doubt and power of the word and convert.

    In game reality blight = poison. Devs didn’t want to go further.

    In *your* game reality. In the actual game everyone but you play blight is not only poison but also, as Jolly Joker said, corruption, rot, etc.

    Now, you MIGHT say, that the greater class immunities od Dread was initially balanced for example by the awkwardness of machine regeneration/healing – but “awkward” is somewhat spoiling the fun, no matter how “balance” might be perceived, so smoothing out the downside for Dread is fine, but smoothing out the extremer downsides for the others should be fine as well.

    Now that is a problem. Machines were always balanced on the premice that they don’t heal. Now dreadnought noob players whine, and machines got ways to heal, like the engineer thing. Remove this, say fuck to the noobs seeking for regenerating machines, and that will be enough of a nerf to the dreadnought for the theocrat. Plus this is real asymetric balance.

    And now, think about this : whiners here are saying that no T3 unit can stand against dreanought, and that only proper anti-machine counters work (shock damage units or sabotage). That would indicate dreadnought machines are overpowered more than theocrat need a counter too.

    #207423

    Ericridge
    Member

    That’s what I said: “you need a Dreadnought hero to handle them or what you get are throw-away tools.”.

    The problem with the latter is, that their XP gain is wasted on them, which means, they are really a makeshift solution only without a fitting hero (or a “looted” Engineer).

    Are you even serious?

    Dude, just build a master guild. And then those trebuchets will be around forever if you take good care with them.
    Additionally machines dont’ have very much promotions unless it’s a golem and a juggernaut.

    Both Cannon and Trebuchet gets only crippling wounds at elite. That’s it. No exp wasted there.

    And all this freaking out over machine heals cuz of repair machine from dreadnought and engineer and maintenance skill. I never rely on those skills for healing because damage output far surpasses 15 hp heals at most they delay the inevitable unless you can put down the target before it destroys your machines.

    At most, repair machine heals tend to see action during the closing stage of a battle where dreadnought/engineers isn’t urgently needed to keep those guns firing and slinging those nasty spells.

    And finally, Maintenance only heals 3 hp in strategy map per turn. It won’t be something you rely on. You are better off ordering that stack to return to a master guild city and restoring it’s hp that way so it will be ready for another battle in four turns instead of 10+ turns if you are relying on maintenance.

    And that’s not all, any machines that dreadnought produces super fast before he even gets to build the master guild is also throwaways.

    Siege Workshop + Master Guild = 350 Gold
    Dreadnought Hero = 100,200,300g depending on it’s time of appearance.

    No matter what people says, Master Guild > Dreadnought Hero for machine repairs hands down.

    Master Guild is very important building for all Dreadnoughts, find where the Dreadnought repairs his machines and destroy that city. You will see him balk.

    #207427

    Zaskow
    Member

    You know even chess is imbalanced because white start with one turn advantage. Your life must be miserable if you seek for such equality and sameness everywhere.

    PFf. You know for decent player it doesn’t matter. I also don’t remind about sameness of chess sides.

    In *your* game reality. In the actual game everyone but you play blight is not only poison but also, as Jolly Joker said, corruption, rot, etc.

    Why then machines and undead are fully immune to “Rot, corruption etc”? If in game reality blight would be truly blight we have never seen such immunities. It would be more honestly to change name “blight” to “Poison”.

    I think that would be overpowered for everything but machines.

    When Necro had ability to inflict 100% spirit weakness, it doesn’t bother anyone and Necro has a lot of spirit damage on his units.

    #207432

    NuMetal
    Member

    Bouh wrote:
    In *your* game reality. In the actual game everyone but you play blight is not only poison but also, as Jolly Joker said, corruption, rot, etc.
    Why then machines and undead are fully immune to “Rot, corruption etc”? If in game reality blight would be truly blight we have never seen such immunities. It would be more honestly to change name “blight” to “Poison”.

    The devs have actually pointed out a few times that Blight is not only Poison and that Jolly Joker and Bouh are simply right here.

    Why machines aren’t affected is another question and I have to admit that it doesn’t fit that idea, but it still stands that the devs see Blight not only as poison.

    #207434

    Bouh
    Member

    PFf. You know for decent player it doesn’t matter. I also don’t remind about sameness of chess sides.

    So you are even worse at chess than you are at AoW3. Who have white or black in chess is considered in tournaments and there rules to balance this.

    When Necro had ability to inflict 100% spirit weakness, it doesn’t bother anyone and Necro has a lot of spirit damage on his units.

    Necromancer is balanced around that. Theocrat isn’t.

    As for dreadnought machines, it’s simple : either they are balanced by the lack of regen and no class needs specific counters to kill them, and hence buffed racial units are enough to fight them, or they aren’t. Dreadnought matchup shouldn’t be a case of always bringing a counter except if you are a warlord.

    As a reminder, my point of view is that machines are balanced and hence theocrat can fight them relying on racial units, specializations and what already work against machines (martyrs, crusaders, shrines, mark heretic, armageddon, etc.)

    #207439

    Astraflame
    Member

    Now that is a problem. Machines were always balanced on the premice that they don’t heal. Now dreadnought noob players whine, and machines got ways to heal, like the engineer thing. Remove this, say fuck to the noobs seeking for regenerating machines, and that will be enough of a nerf to the dreadnought for the theocrat. Plus this is real asymetric balance.

    That’s what i’ve been saying all along.

    Maintenance is a horrible implementation with the current machine stats, because 100% immunities was balanced around the fact that attrition would be a problem for machines. I think the devs themselves said so at one point.

    So fast forward and what happened was that the spec, expander received builders with repair machine. That’s already a strong option for dreadnoughts that want field repair, EL happened and for some reasons maintenance was introduced with other buffs to the engineer.

    Balance is off, naturally theocrat is one of the classes to suffer the most so i’ve been supporting a theocrat buff because of this fact. But the problem ultimately lies with the dread, either take away maintenance which is not not likely at this point, there would an outcry. Or lower those protections to compensate, i’d say machines should not have more than 80% protection, blight nor spirit, perhaps 60%?

    If this won’t happen i am supporting a theocrat buff to deal extra damage or haywire machines but the problem will still exist vs other classes, so by only buffing theocrat vs dreads the root of the problem persists IMO.

    #207440

    quo
    Member

    And now, think about this : whiners here are saying that no T3 unit can stand against dreanought, and that only proper anti-machine counters work (shock damage units or sabotage). That would indicate dreadnought machines are overpowered more than theocrat need a counter too.

    Are you playing Dreadnoughts now and somehow managing to lose to Theocrats? Is that a thing that actually happens to you, even while you are immune to almost all of their abilities? How is this possible? Please enlighten us.

    #207442

    I think that would be overpowered for everything but machines.

    Yeah Bouh I already acknowledged that as a weak point.

    EL happened and for some reasons maintenance was introduced with other buffs to the engineer.

    Threads, not dissimilar to this very one, asked for more Dreadnought healing.

    The idea was fiercely resisted, as are many ideas, for example in this very thread, but it came as a repackaging of the Dreadnought class.

    The Dreadnought class as a whole was the most affected by the Eternal Lords expansion, with Cannons, Golems, Musketeers and Engineers all receiving big changes, and Flametanks getting lesser changes (they got reinforced iirc?).

    #207444

    the problem will still exist vs other classes

    I assume the “problem” in question is thus:

    Dreadnoughts OP?

    #207445

    NuMetal
    Member

    even while you are immune to almost all of their abilities? How is this possible? Please enlighten us.

    Here is the thing: The game doesn’t start in late game!

    And if you play properly you will just beat a Dreadnaught long before it gets there.
    All the immunities don’t help when they are only on units you get much later in the game and you don’t reach that part of the game.

    Dreadnoughts OP?

    Yes, that is the question and the answer is no.
    However we could also just wait till the tournament is over and see the results 🙂

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