Theocrat endgame

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This topic contains 1,253 replies, has 52 voices, and was last updated by  Ericridge 6 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #212547

    Bouh
    Member

    Are there other issues?

    The issue of this thread is that some people want to discuss balance but ignore half of the game possibilities, like specializations and races.

    That and Zaskow insulting anyone who disagree with him, but he tries his best to not say anything one can consider to be an argument. This last page shows this very well : on six posts, 4 are insults only, one is “counter argument” with no relation to the poblem, and one is an actual statement of his mindset, eventhough the point of view is quite extremist.

    #212551

    NINJEW
    Member

    Bouh I’m pretty sure that ExNihil wanted to know about game related issues, not thread related issues, which he actually specified as not being particularly concerned with here:

    Soooooo, what are you guys talking about? All I read here is arguments about how defective the participants are and why their opinions don’t matter, but I still sorta wonder whether there is an issue with the Theocrats EG?.

    #212575

    ExNihil
    Member

    Yup, these sort of issues :).

    How about a city enchantment called “Inquisition” that works like the alignment city buffs: Units produced or summoned to that city will receive the Inquisitor trait which gives them some extra elemental damage (fire for sure and perhaps also shock) channels and the demolisher tait? This could alternately be a new building unlocked through research but I favor this less. Also the sabotage ability could be introduced on some racial units on medals, this will diversify things a bit.

    Another option, aside from the obvious rebalancing of Dreads (which is my personal favorite) is the addition of a spirit vulnerability debuff on the mark of the heretic / mark as heretic ability of Missionaries which will open up machines to spirit damage. That is, inflict spirit vulnerability even on machines.

    There is the possibility of a battlefield enchantment (which is a bit awkward but can work) that renders all enemy units susceptible to spirit damage. This last one can work also by giving all Devout units on the battlefield shock or fire damage and the demolisher trait.

    One more option is something along the lines of the WL’s unit buffing spells (Lion’s courage / last stand) that gives a specific unit the demolisher ability, sabotage and inflict spirit vulnerability. This though won’t help with the amassed cannons vs. theo matchup much since it could be casted only once per round.

    Also, another option is to give Shrines a new trait called “Deus ex Machina” or something along these lines which gives them extra shock damage against machines – perhaps 8 base shock damage + inflict overloaded (scaling with the addition of devout units.) Or to give Theo Heroes a trait equivalent to the Dread’s “Wizard Hunters,” which gives all units in the army the demolisher and sabotage traits + extra morale for every destroyed enemy unit.

    Finally, there could also be a city enchantment that gives Theocrat extra range and reduced penalties on ranged attacks while reducing that of their adversaries when defending walls, this will definitely help against cannons and allow some powerful synergies for Theo vs. Dread (storm sisters for instance, and of course shrines). It could be called something like “Holy Mist.”

    None of these solutions is perfect, all will require some rebalancing, but I think all are also viable. What do you guys say?

    #212582

    Bouh
    Member

    Bouh I’m pretty sure that ExNihil wanted to know about game related issues, not thread related issues, which he actually specified as not being particularly concerned with here:

    There is no game related issue though.

    Just because someone who only want to play half the game think there is an issue and spam on the forum doesn’t mean there is any issue.

    On top of that the non issue has already been fixed by the tweak on exalted.

    Now it’s simply bitching about how the game should be balanced and how some people are so good against the AI.

    None of these solutions is perfect, all will require some rebalancing, but I think all are also viable. What do you guys say?

    I think a complete rebalance of the theocrat and everything he interact with (which means the whole game) to fix a non issue is not needed.

    #212585

    ExNihil
    Member

    Thanks for the substantial input. I’m sure the devs (if they read this monstrous thread at all) noted your opposition. I would like though input from the many participants who disagree with you and think there is in fact an issue, at least according to their experience.

    #212590

    Bouh
    Member

    Yeah, sure, as usual, don’t discuss the question of whether there is an issue or not, just consider there is one, and discuss the solutions which consist in streamlining the game. I forgot about that, sorry.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by  President.
    #212599

    Thanks for the substantial input. I’m sure the devs (if they read this monstrous thread at all) noted your opposition. I would like though input from the many participants who disagree with you and think there is in fact an issue, at least according to their experience.

    I know they read at least the first half.

    #212602

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    We read it.

    #212604

    Gloweye
    Member

    We read it.

    RIP Dev brain cells. This thread is a monster.

    #212734

    NINJEW
    Member

    We read it.

    You are stronger folk than I

    #212784

    NuMetal
    Member

    RIP Dev brain cells.

    My thoughts exactly! 😀

    #212798

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    The problem with the issue is – there is none, because you cannot compare classes ONLY, disregarding all the rest.
    This becomes obvious when you think about the fact that a sizable part of the game patching over the last year has been about increasing the differences (or creating new ones) between CLASS (production) units of different RACES.

    Which means, the “balance issue” isn’t a balance issue at all. The way I see it, we have a complaint here that when you play a Theocrat and you play any game in which you don’t know which classes opponents will have, you already have to cater for all possibilities at the start of the game, by picking race and specs accordingly, as opposed to being able to react with CLASS tools alone in mid game, when you realize what you are up against (say, you are at war with a Warlord at your border and have a Dread far away).

    IN THIS CASE, the complaint goes, the somewhat sizable amount of spirit damage Theo’s late game armies do are useless against a Dread, and therefore the match-up is unfavorable.

    However, I don’t see how this would be different than Rogue versus Necro. Blight and Cold don’t do much, and everything that works against Warlord is worth squat against Necro. Succubae’s seduce sucks as much against undead as Evangelists’s Convert sucks against Machines, and so on and so forth.

    So since this is supposed to be mostly an MP complaint, I think we should keep in mind the massive advantage Theo has when it comes to clearing stuff, more or less levelling all racial considerations based on healing and regenerating abilities since the Class is offering that, allowing probably the biggest freedom when it comes to picking race.

    Lastly, Shrine being a produced unit, it makes sense to equip it with physical/spirit damage only (physical simply from the kinetic force of the hit), since it bundles the spiritual belief, not any fiery wrath or something. If you’d want that aspect, Theo would need a different unit – an Inquisitor instead of an Evangelist, for example, or as an additional unit.
    For example, a unit like that might have the “Mark as Heretic” ability (the strategic spell in a smaller version) and the ability to deal +X Fire damage against Heretics.
    This would be a different Theocrat, though.

    And, not wanting to be unconstructive, since there were and are a couple of threads that try to suggest ways to allow in-game CLASS reactions to game developments – what strikes me as a good way here, would be ONE ALTERNATIVE CLASS UNIT (per class), and since it’s LATE game reaction that counts, it should be a T3 Class unit. For Theo, just as an example, this would be the above mentioned Inquisitor, the alternative to Evangelist; whereas the Evangelist would be the more peaceful converter/Healer, the Inquisitor would be the zealous Fire and Sword type, branding Heretics and killing them with holy fire…

    However, I’m not really convinced there are REALLY slots for alternative Class units fore all Classes, so that’s probably just a special case where it might work.

    #213061

    As asked here, I would like to say that the other thread is imho unnecessary, as every single thing being discussed there has already been mentioned here.

    Someone used the term circular balance argument in the other thread, well I’d like to escalate that to circle jerking, as anyone who doesn’t think there is an issue has been asked to leave that thread, so that thread is basically only for those who think Theo needs a buff.

    Although I myself proposed a very specific solution that would have affected only the late game (infact I think it was a very particular, and limited solution) I don’t think the situation, especially considering Theocrats already got a buff, is such as to merit such extended discussion as it has.

    I posed a simple question there that the proponents of buffing have yet to answer:

    Basically, what is the Dread doing to the Theocrat, and here is the crux, that he can’t do to anyone else, to such an extent that the Theocrat is somehow helpless as people keep saying here?

    Because people are claiming that the Theocrat is reliant on spirit damage, even though imho, it clearly isn’t:

    As far as I understand it, the main argument is that because the Dread uses machines, the Theocrat is thus hard countered because of spirit immunity on machines.

    However, my answer to that is only 4 units (Cherubs, Evangelists, Exalted and Shrines) out of 7 actually use spirit damage, and of those, only 2 can be argued to be dependent on it (Evangelists and Shrines) dependent here meaning using 50% of their damage from that.

    Of those, we have the Evangelist – who was never meant to be going toe to toe with anything, so his damage output doesn’t factor into anything. His job is to heal Crusaders and convert whatever he can (so not machines edit – however, your Cannons without Engineers are not so great, and if you have Engineers, those Evangelists are a threat).

    Then we have the Shrine, which as shown earlier is quite the machine killer anyway, and can outshoot a Juggernaut, and have its damage absorbed.

    So, I’m looking at this and thinking that that central claim, which is

    because the Dread uses machines, the Theocrat is thus hard countered because of spirit immunity on machines.

    is not really valid.

    The other thread has been framed in such a way that disagreeing with the central premise has now been shut down, which to me is the very opposite of what discussion should be about.

    #213086

    llfoso
    Member

    BBB, you forgot all the spirit-based spells: slayer’s doubt, smite, holy war, word of power, wrath of god. The majority of the theocrat’s offensive spellcasting gets shut down. From a funness perspective, this is just not a lot of fun to not be able to use your abilities.

    My theory right now (repeating myself from the other thread a little bit) is that golem spam is the problem. When it was all muskets this was never a problem. Golems have such massive defense (14 on a T2!) and blight/spirit immunity, it can be hard to counter them depending on your race.

    #213092

    @ Ilfoso, good point.

    Maybe I’m guilty of assuming everyone sees what I see (which most people are guilty off, most of the time) but I always pick my specialisations precisely to round off my damage attributes, or to add something tactically.

    For example, in longer sp games I like the elemental Masteries as they give you combat spells and Elementals.

    The 3 new specs give you Angels and some fancy combat stuff as well.

    This is a general thing, and I should point out that this is from a Warlord dominant perspective, but also Theocrat as well.

    I find myself playing Theocrat alot lately, ever since the last beta.

    So, as a Theocrat, I *know* that my spells are mono channeled, so I always pick at least spec to round things out (e.g. fire for fireball, or water for frost, or air for suffocate).

    However, I was reluctant to use specs as a debate point because alot of that presupposes you know who your opponent is, i.e. some best case scenario creating was going on back there.

    I would be curious to know what specs people pair with Theocrat, and also typically what race.

    I mean, if I was Human Theocrat, that is like doubling down on Spirit, so you take the risk of your opponent being a Dread (but you hope it’s a Necromancer), so if it were me I’d definitely pick fire or earth up, maybe one spec of each, i.e. water, fire, air/earth to guarantee non spirit damage).

    In longer, sp games (in mp I am convinced the problem as explained here is almost non existent) I am quite fond of double earth (because Exalted are sweet) whereas with WL that is a bit trickier (I can rarely get Manticores out en masse, although earthquake and hellfire work ok with Warbreeds as well).

    #213111

    Astraflame
    Member

    My theory right now (repeating myself from the other thread a little bit) is that golem spam is the problem. When it was all muskets this was never a problem. Golems have such massive defense (14 on a T2!) and blight/spirit immunity, it can be hard to counter them depending on your race.

    Golem spam is vulnerable to attrition, engineer manintenace is one thing that negates this a little, IMO nerf maintenance already. Having said that. I’ve suggested before to add one more spell to the arsenal of fighting spirit immunity, warp equipment from wild magic adept was my choice for a 40-60 spirit reduce effect vs machine, to mimic rot a little for spirit race/class.

    #213113

    Bouh
    Member

    However, I was reluctant to use specs as a debate point because alot of that presupposes you know who your opponent is, i.e. some best case scenario creating was going on back there.

    I would rather ask (and I actualy asked) what specialization combo would not give the theocrat some way to deal with these golems.

    Let’s suppose a human theocrat, so you stack the odds against you. What specializations do people use that leave them so vulnerable to golem ?

    #213115

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Depends a bit, because I kinda like to play something just because I’d like to try it, but compettitively spoken, I find myself leaning to Destructive.
    Wreck is such a wonderful spell, and handing out 100% Physical and 100% Blight to an annoying undead/machine/ship for just 10 CP is just sweet. Which includes Golems.

    #213128

    @ JJ, yeah I was thinking that if you are going to double down on one thing with your race, then you pick a spec to compensate, deliberately so.

    I mean, if you are worried about machines:

    Destruction for wreck.

    Wild magic for degenerate.

    Water for rot, and nuke.

    Fire for nuke, and early Summons.

    Double Air for Windward (neutralises Cannons and other ranged)

    Earth for stone skin (so you can close in and engage, trading any mobility you might have had for some toughness – a bit finicky but a good option against Golems specifically) and stoning.

    Gray Guard for Cardinal culling.

    It just seems to me that when you have:

    Class (Theocrat options, of which some units have an issue with Spirit damage, and some spells are negated)

    Race (other than Humans with spirit reliance, and possibly Goblins with Blight emphasis – which you have Doctors for btw, and very spammable Warg Riders…)

    Specs

    Then there are enough options in the game that a boost to Theocrats is, imho, not needed.

    I think it’s best of asking what is the worst case Theo versus Dread matchup.

    Human Theocrat who has picked creation Master and Explorer maybe, versus what Dread?

    To which I’d say, bring out the Cavalry, and massed Civic Guard (multiple nets will neutralise a Golem iirc).

    #213134

    Nodor
    Member

    As a player that uses a spec slot to shore up the weakness I fear all the time, I feel like an inability to counter a class arises out of sub-par skill choices.

    #213138

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ BBB

    I agree 100% with your last post. It’s a sizable part of the reasons why I think this game is so incredibly awesome: you balance things yourself, and if you fail to, don’t blame the game.

    #213140

    @ Nodor, I agree.

    However, I don’t want to use that to give the impression that I completely disregard the Theo advocates.

    It is a harder matchup, but I truly believe that every class has harder and easier matchups.

    I wonder if it is worth pairing them up, so, asking people the question:

    In your opinion, what is the hardest and easiest matchup for the following classes:

    Theocrat (I would say facing a Dread is probably the hardest matchup, but that’s because I believe facing massed machines is difficult for *any* class)

    Necromancer (either Dreads, because Necro can’t do much against them, or Theos, because Theos can do alot against them. However, Necros have problems against many classes, e.g. Sorcerors who can outsummon and out spell them)

    Warlord (for me Sorc or Druid for massed Summons, especially if the WL doesn’t have a marked city advantage, possibly Rogue if the Rogue is clever and conceals stuff. However, this is an all round versatile class now imho)

    Druid (dunno, seems a solid class regardless)

    Sorceror (as above)

    Dreadnought (Sorcerors, because of shock damage and Summons)

    Rogue (I’d say Sorceror)

    #213152

    Carrying on from the other thread:

    The subject of this thread is to discuss solutions to what I and a bunch of other people perceive as a problem in the Theocrat/Dread matchup – especially in the latter phases of the game. This problem has been elaborated here in several posts by several people. I encourage you to grab a cup of coffee and read these if you are interested – you seem to have missed them and now cry foul. The subject of this thread is *not* the question whether there is a problem or not, which has a very large thread dedicated to it

    (Ex Nihil)

    Unlike you, I read these threads. In this (monster) thread I even link to some of the earliest discussions.

    Also, if you want to do a damage calculation based on percentiles you can give the actual date. No worries, I did it for you:

    Cherubs: 25% spirit damage
    Martyr: 0% spirit damage
    Crusader: 0% spirit damage
    Evangelist: 66% spirit damage
    Exalted: 23% spirit damage
    Shrine: 50% spirit damage

    (Ex Nihil)

    This is ignoring the value of devout+ heretic, and damage here should be checked against the applicable defence if you are trying to make the point that Theos can’t damage Dreadnoughts.

    Now, the highest machine defence is 14 on Golems and 15 on Juggernauts.

    Solid Engineering gives a + 1 to these defence stats.

    Mark of the heretic gives a + 3 to attack.

    So, let’s consider the worst case scenario for the Theocrat, which is where Exalted are going head to head with Golems.

    I won’t include any medals here, and I won’t include class upgrades (because getting an arena out for Exalted is as easier, probably easier, than getting Solid Engineering, so they cancel each other out).

    Exalted (other than Hafling with 12 physical, Humans with 10, and Orcs with 14) hit for 13 damage.

    Now add mark of the heretic and you are hitting for 16 damage against 14 defence, receiving 13 attack versus 11 defence.

    So, Exalted are dealing out more damage here (not by much).

    Exalted have 55 hp, Golems 60. So, stats wise, this just shows that they more or less cancel each other out.

    Yes, I am also ignoring Defender, because if you are using Defender, then you aren’t engaging, which allows the Exalted to gang up and use their flying to greater effect.

    Don’t forget this is the worst possible thing a Theo can do, and represents some strategic lapses in concentration, or lag, or just being outskilled.

    That is the strongest class on class unit mismatch I can think of here (i.e. Dreads versus Theocrat). And you can heal the Exalted much easier.

    Now, bring a Crusader, who also has defender, with mark of the heretic, and you are dishing out 16 damage against 14 defence, receiving 13 attack against 12 defence, and it is much more even (and they regenerate naturally, so if you went one on one, you’d win the attrition, unless there is machine healing, which means a non machine slot which means vulnerability to Evangelists, unless it’s a Builder, which means easy killing)

    Plus there are at least 7 racial units you can use as well, of which several can be devout, so there is that physical damage to consider as well.

    Hardly a case of Dreadnought immunity.

    You shouldn’t be using Cherubs to be attacking with, except as a last resort anyway. They are your eyes and ears, and better and more mobile than the Dread equivalent.

    As for Evangelists, I already mentioned them – you shouldn’t be using them for damage, but as fairly robust Healers, with the chance to convert Engineers and Musketeers.

    and which Exalted are you using to come up with 23% spirit damage?

    Humans, with 10/8 are the worst culprit with 44% spirit damage.

    The rest deal 4 spirit damage.

    That’s 4 negated by spirit immunity, with + 3 from devout, so in effect -1 attack. Hardly anything to write home about.

    Now, the Shrines – 50% spirit damage still gives you a minimum of 10 fire damage, so against anything that isn’t a Flametank, you are still hitting for good damage, as resistance is low with the machines (Juggernaut having the highest with 11 resistance).

    But ofcourse, no Shrine ever goes anywhere alone (and I wouldn’t expect any Cannons to be alone – they’d have Engineers for reloading, or Builder/heroes to heal, or some combination therein). So, a reasonable assumption is 5 Devout units for a Shrine, so now that fire damage is 20 fire damage.*

    Not to mention the area of effect, which will hit machines.

    Ergo, with regards to the spirit immunity that Ex Nihil’s entire premise is based on, the Theocrat is not lacking damage options.

    *This particular thread was focusing on late game Theo options against Dreads (although imho late game Dread is possibly the most powerful class) which is why I proposed haywire on Shrines, and others proposing splitting the damage, giving it a shock component.

    The more I look at these numbers, the thing that truly stands out is Golems (as they’ll get +4 against ranged physical attacks, so most ranged options are simply not going to work).

    Spells that are not effected my machines are those that are casted on a friendly unit, namely:
    Divine Protection (extra resistance, not very useful vs. machines)
    Instant Wrath (of the lot this passive-aggressive spell is the only one that is def. good)
    Rebirth (can’t be casted on machines, including shrines)
    Blessing of Health
    Might Meek (favours low tier units, not good in engagements with a lot of t3/4 units)

    What has that got to do with the discussion? So you can’t use Theo specific buff spells on a machine, so what?

    Let’s look over these actually, and see whether they are infact useful to a Theocrat fighting a Dread:

    Divine Protection: True, extra resistance won’t help you much against melee damage machines.

    Instant Wrath: Incredibly useful. Any damage your machines are doing to the Theocrat now get reflected, and then Evangelists and/or other supports are healing the Theocrat unit.

    Rebirth: If you manage to kill a Theo unit, and it comes back…how is that not useful? The closest a Dread can do is Reassemble (which is itself quite nice).

    Blessing of Health: +10 hp to Theocrat units. Always nice. That + 10 hp can swing a battle in your favour.

    Might Meek: Also useful. It makes any tier 1 unit gain + 3 damage when facing Golems, and don’t forget the + 3 from mark of the heretic, if you are using devout units, so potentially that means Martyrs and Infantry with + 6 damage, which means Longswords hitting for 18 damage, against Golems and Muskets (tier 2 units) and 21 damage against Cannons and Tanks (tier 3) and 24 damage against Juggernauts – assuming they survive to engage the tank.

    That’s unranked swordsmen by the way, and I picked Humans because it is acknowledged that they are the worst Theocrat to face a Dread, on account of their Priests being Support heavy).

    Mighty meek may infact be the game changer!

    So, while it is true that:

    Add to this the following spells that don’t work on machines:
    Slayer’s Doubt (rolls 16 spirit)
    Smite (rolls 11 spirit)
    Power of the Word (rolls 11 spirit against all enemy units)
    Holy War (grants +10 spirit dmg to all devout units, does not effect machines)

    That is 4 spells that don’t work. I’ll refer you to what I wrote in this post, specifically, that there are several spells in various specialisation that exist specifically for you to round out your weakness.

    Every class has at least one combat spell that is completely useless against machines.

    E.G. Druids with hornet swarm.

    Necromancer with stiffen limbs and syphon life, arguably death ray as it has 8 frost damage.

    Rogues with Panic attack, and arguably rain of poison blades.

    Warlords with shout of intimidation and berserk (and not a single nuke either).

    Even Sorcerers with arcane binding.

    So, again, I ask:

    What is the dread bringing to the table against Theocrats that he doesn’t bring to the table, that he doesn’t bring against other classes?

    Or, another way of asking it:

    What is so weak about a Theocrats options that this match can be considered imba?

    #213153

    llfoso
    Member

    Water doesn’t have a lot to offer on non-island maps, I wouldn’t want to choose a spec solely for one spell on a “just in case” basis. And you get limited utility out of rot if you don’t have blight damage.

    Wreck, degenerate, and the single target nukes are certainly effective, but don’t work that well against a mass of machines, such as golem spam. You can’t spend every battle landing degenerates on every unit, and if you could it would be OP against other classes.

    Wind ward also won’t help against golem spam.

    Cardinal culling is the only really solid option, and personally I think cardinal culling is too strong. The debuff is so powerful it’s well worth while even if it only affects two units.

    I have never said I thought rogue needed help against necromancers when that thread came up because the specializations offer a vast (and I mean VAST) array of tools to use against undead if your race falls short. But specialization spells that offer tools to fight machines are actually pretty limited.

    But again, I think the problem might be golem spam because they’ve become more massable, they have amazing stats for a T2, they’re easier to maintain now, muskets have fallen out of favor, and they’re no longer in competition with racial T3s for the same role.

    I’m not saying a flat nerf would be a good idea. I think the trick might be to specialize them somehow so they’re no longer a generic mechanical brawler.

    #213155

    @ Ilfoso, might be worth pursuing that line of enquiry, but imho Dreads do need some sort of Cannon/Musketeer/Engineer protector.

    *If* there was call to nerf them, I might make them slightly more expensive or something.

    #213157

    Nodor
    Member

    Water doesn’t have a lot to offer on non-island maps, I wouldn’t want to choose a spec solely for one spell on a “just in case” basis. And you get limited utility out of rot if you don’t have blight damage.

    I choose specs for one ability a lot. I frequently get:
    Explorer – Cartographer.
    Expander for +20 Outpost production
    Water – Rot
    Fire – Fireball
    Earth – Domain of Earth
    Creation – Cleanse the Land
    Destruction – Hasty Plunder
    Wild Magic – Summon Elemental

    All of these things are valuable ways to shore up a weakness or take advantage of a strength.

    I am really frustrated at the moment with people insisting the game change to suit their playstyle without acknowledging that their preferred strategy or class has at least one drawback and choosing to not cover that drawback is a choice that they are making that will make life difficult if their drawback comes up.

    #213158

    The Mentat
    Member

    My theory right now (repeating myself from the other thread a little bit) is that golem spam is the problem.

    Maybe it’s just my experience but I don’t have any problems with golems in SP. The problem is for me instead the combination that Dreadnoughts are a good lategame class and Theocrats are limited in their (lategame) options against them. The link shows two pictures of the situation in my last matchup against four Dreadnoughts. It’s turn 79 and the AI is attacking from two sides.

    Picture 1
    Picture 2

    The Juggernauts of the violet player have 19 defense because of enchanted armor (later with Great Mobilization they will have 21). The yellow player has sphinxes with sabotage that are quite effective in destroying my shrines. This makes it really hard to fight them.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by  President.
    #213160

    esvath
    Member

    I just completed a game as a Tigran Theocrat (Destruction Adept/Shadowborn Master) against 5 King AI. This game culminated in big battles between me and a Dreadnought AI. I finally won the game after destroyed the Dreadnought’s army and captured her Throne city. Three stacks of Juggernauts, Flametanks and Goblin Beetles against two stacks of my Exalteds, Shrines and Angels.

    I can say that Theocrats can win against Dreadnought even when outnumbered and beseiging the Dreadnought’s city. However, I put emphasis on this:

    BBB, you forgot all the spirit-based spells: slayer’s doubt, smite, holy war, word of power, wrath of god. The majority of the theocrat’s offensive spellcasting gets shut down. From a funness perspective, this is just not a lot of fun to not be able to use your abilities.

    So, maybe to diversify Theocrat’s spells is an alternative against boring gameplay Theocrat vs Dreadnought (and also to Theocrat vs Theocrat)? I don’t know whether this would affect Theocrat against other classes, though.

    #213178

    Yeah I can totally understand the ‘fun’ argument, but this thread, and the other, have been set up with a simple premise that the match was so badly skewed that changes were, and are, required, because otherwise Theocrats doesn’t have a chance.

    That is a supposition that I disagree with.

    Now, for fun stuff, I think there are numerous things that can be added to the game to make it more fun (none of these suggestions are intended to imply that the game isn’t actually fun right now) or to add flavour, for example:

    1. Spice up cosmic events, so that there are some truly game altering things in there that can change up the dynamic. For example, an event, with 10 turns warning, that causes a Great flood, which raises the surface level of water bu 3-4 hexes.

    There’s no map without at least a river on it, so this would really change things up, and imho would be quite fun.

    2. Modified racial governance, with some races (but not all) getting to pick factions as part of the racial governance, which change the race (but not drastically, think of it as adding salt instead of pepper,) for example Elves, at lvl 3, get the choice to follow the Shadow Path/Spider Cult, which would swap out Unicorns for Executioners, Griffons for Spider Queens, which would make for a more underground suited Elvish race.

    3. Changing building effects (ideally names and graphics, hell even restructuring completely the building chains) dependent on race. I know most people are fine with it but it always bugged me that every race has a storehouse-hospital etc, especially Goblins (“life is cheap among the Goblins”) and Draconians (they eat their young, and send out their literal babies to fight). I think changing the cost of some things (e.g. cheaper siege shops for Dwarves) was a great step in the right direction.

    4. Theocrats to get some anti-devout measures. I suppose 2 Theocrats marking each other as heretics is good enough, but I think Theocrats in particular should get Un/Holy champion unlocks dependent on alignment (and not the other classes, as being “righteous” – in their eyes anyway- strikes me as a particularly Theocrat desire, and Un/Holy champion seems like a logical next step from being devout. Other classes strike me as treating being good/evil etc as a consequence, whereas a Theocrat would see it as the goal).

    #213181

    esvath
    Member

    I am very much agree with Racial Governance provides factional choices (hello, Dark Elves) and strongly suggest Triumph explore this mechanism for future expansion (crossing fingers here…) however this will not address the dullness of Theocrat vs Dreadnought and Theocrat vs Theocrat 🙂

    Thus, I suggest maybe introduces more elements to Theocrat offensive such as Wrath of God deals Spirit/Fire or Shrine of Smiting deal Spirit/Fire/Shock. It is just like Rogues getting Cold damage through Shadow Stalkers.

    Btw, I found it was strange that Holy champions did not change into Unholy Champion when I got Evil alignment. In my memory, in my previous games pre-EL, Holy Champion changed into Unholy Champion according to my alignment. Or maybe I mixed it up with the Festivals?

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