Theocrat endgame

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This topic contains 1,253 replies, has 52 voices, and was last updated by  Ericridge 7 years ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1,141 through 1,170 (of 1,254 total)
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  • #213730

    Bouh
    Member

    You brought “what if the dread is human” and “proper dread will have seeker enchantment to pown you beyond walls”.

    #213738

    BLOODYBATTLEBRAIN wrote:
    What is the Dread doing against the Theocrat that is so bad that he doesn’t do against every other class?
    Ignore part of main Theo damage, maybe?

    Except, using actual FACTS, it has been shown that spirit damage is not the main part of the damage.

    BLOODYBATTLEBRAIN wrote:
    Specialisations give more than enough options for a Theocrat fighting a Dread. Infact, that is why you ahve sopecialisations.
    Your choice is useless, when you don’t know what enemy you will meet. Are you so blind? Other classes have certain solutions against Dread regardless class and race.

    You are the one who is blind. Specs exist specifically to give you options. It’s up to the player to prepare himself for anticipated enemies.

    Any class knows that machines are dangerous, so any class should be thinking about what to do.

    BLOODYBATTLEBRAIN wrote:
    I was using Keeper of the Peace as an example of how even a “bad” (as in non obvious) specialisation pick still gives you options.
    These options are so crappy vs. machines that can’t be considered as “options”.

    How are they crappy?

    You saying they are crappy doesn’t make them so. I’ve shown how even this “bad” choice still has options.

    BLOODYBATTLEBRAIN wrote:
    Cheaper Settlers (so you could get a better economy based on higher number of cities – all dependent on map size and setting ofcourse)
    What if you meet Human Dread?

    So what if you do?

    If he is going for massed Settlers, well then he can’t defend them all when you can choose when and where to strike.

    Then it is much more even.

    Whatever class unit he has, you can counter with racial units.

    If he switches to using racial units, you are laughing, as Theocrat is excellent against living units.

    You are literally picking the best case scenario for a Dread against the worst possible Theocrat opponent, and using that as an argument for change, which is innately dishonest, and also not valid in any case, as even then, the Theocrat still has options.

    BLOODYBATTLEBRAIN wrote:
    throw net on a very cheap to recruit and maintain Civic Guard.
    Hah, good luck to use this against machines with high def.

    Even if it fails, it still drains movement.

    BLOODYBATTLEBRAIN wrote:
    There’s nothing stopping you using a repair machine item and building Trebs.
    Yeah, it’s very clever to use Trebs against reinforced units.

    Who mentioned reinforced units?

    I was saying that there is nothing stopping the Theocrat meeting the Dreadnought player head on using healing Trebs (via item) and healing Crusaders, to directly fight Golems.

    If the Dread brings Cannons, you swarm him, and use Cavalry.

    BLOODYBATTLEBRAIN wrote:
    Do you finally get my point – Theocrat.has.viable.options.
    Your arguments are far-fetched and very weak against machines. Sorry, but that’s true.

    My arguments are actual arguments, based on actual stats that anyone can look up, and are used to analyse other arguments. That means you, if you ever bother to engage with the actual truth of the situation.

    Your arguments are unsupported statements using logic that is only present in your head, that bear no relation to the debating statements put forth.

    In other words, you just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

    I aim to show my reasoning that there is really no need for massed Theocrat buffs as have been suggested.

    So, my question:

    What is the Dread doing to the Theo that he isnlt doing to anyone else?

    You answer:

    Ignoring his spirit damage.

    My counter answer:

    Spirit damage is a very small part of the total damage, and the extra physical damage that mark of the heretic gets you mostly compensates for the lost spirit damage.

    This is exactly what Ex was saying in that ridiculous thread, and still no rebuttal of my assertion.

    Now your turn, and I expect a reasoned answer, or none at all.

    If you can’t be bothered to address what people are saying instead of spouting off your Walter Mitty assertions with no regards to easily verifiable facts, then don’t bother replying.

    #213745

    Dr_K
    Member

    Who mentioned reinforced units?

    I was saying that there is nothing stopping the Theocrat meeting the Dreadnought player head on using healing Trebs (via item) and healing Crusaders, to directly fight Golems.

    Well all Dread machine units are Reinforced, including golems. But the damage from the trebuchet is not so insignificant even when considering reinforced, except in the case of a Gold Medal Golem that is Defending (effectively 28 defense against ranged physical). But it is still taking damage that will eventually kill it if the Treb isn’t dealt with.

    #213746

    Zaskow
    Member

    Except, using actual FACTS, it has been shown that spirit damage is not the main part of the damage.

    Most theocrat units become pieces of crap against spirit immune targets. Is it too difficult to see? Only martyrs and crusader inflict maximum damage.

    You are the one who is blind. Specs exist specifically to give you options. It’s up to the player to prepare himself for anticipated enemies.

    Is it too hard to notice that something wrong with class balance here when most classes have inherent anti-machine ability, except theocrat?

    I’ve shown how even this “bad” choice still has options.

    These “options” don’t win battles for you. Just wasting CP or time.

    Even if it fails, it still drains movement.

    Honestly, this is not very big compensation.

    I was saying that there is nothing stopping the Theocrat meeting the Dreadnought player head on using healing Trebs (via item) and healing Crusaders, to directly fight Golems.

    Do you know that Golems have Reinforced trait? Trebs have limited effectiveness against golems.

    If the Dread brings Cannons, you swarm him, and use Cavalry.

    Golems are cheaper a bit than cavalry. So, that’s doubtfully, that you can swarm Dread.

    My arguments are actual arguments, based on actual stats that anyone can look up, and are used to analyse other arguments. That means you, if you ever bother to engage with the actual truth of the situation.

    It seems that you don’t know how it works in real game against decent opponent (especially human).
    I could analyze stats of units using wiki or DB too.

    Spirit damage is a very small part of the total damage, and the extra physical damage that mark of the heretic gets you mostly compensates for the lost spirit damage.

    It seems that you have serious issues with simplest math. How Mark of Heretic can compensate lost of spirit damage for Evangelists, Exalted or Shrine?

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by  President.
    #213768

    I could analyze stats of units using wiki or DB too.

    Then why don’t you?

    It seems that you have serious issues with simplest math. How Mark of Heretic can compensate lost of spirit damage for Evangelists, Exalted or Shrine?

    Go back one or two pages and you will see the maths used.

    Try refuting the numbers used instead of blanket statements.

    #213780

    Zaskow
    Member

    Then why don’t you?

    You know situation in game shows something completely different than theory on web-pages.

    Go back one or two pages and you will see the maths used.

    Try refuting the numbers used instead of blanket statements.

    Hah, seem your problems with math while calculation Theo damage on spirit immune units are unsolvable. Try to use calculator. 🙂

    #213792

    You know situation in game shows something completely different than theory on web-pages.

    Predictable.

    The numbers are there for all to see, and you can’t argue with them, so now you say they are irrelevant.

    Hah, seem your problems with math while calculation Theo damage on spirit immune units are unsolvable. Try to use calculator.

    Or you can show me where I went wrong?

    Perhaps one day you will understand the concept of using evidence to back up a statement.

    #213804

    Zaskow
    Member

    Perhaps one day you will understand the concept of using evidence to back up a statement.

    Ok.
    Cherub – 2 pts of spirit dmg lost. Can be compensated by heretic (that’s why I didn’t mention them).
    Evangelist – 8 pts of spirit damage lost. +3 pts from heretic can’t compensate.
    Exalted – 4 pts of spirit damage lost. +3 pts from heretic almost fixes this, but unit loses multichannel and 1 pt of dmg.
    Shrine – 10 pts lost. I took minimum, losses are much heavier with devout escort present. Heretic doesn’t work on shrines, because it isn’t devout.

    Is thi enough evidence?

    #213807

    Smaug3
    Member

    Evangelist – 8 pts of spirit damage lost. +3 pts from heretic can’t compensate.

    Brief point. Evangelist is not meant to go toe-to-toe with anything but tier one units. It is a support unit whose job is to heal and buff your units, as well as converting enemy living units. It doesn’t matter nearly as much as you make it out to be, as it will die in melee to anything higher than tier one within the space of two turns. Also, please don’t drag me into this. I have no opinion on this whole argument, I just felt I needed to point this out.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by  President.
    #213812

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I’m getting sick of this – it’s complete nonsense.

    Evangelists are no frontline units – it doesn’t matter much that they lose spirit damage, because they won’t attack anyway. Against Dread they are doubtful, except as Dracs or Halflings, but you’ll use them supportive anyway: Touch of Faith, Healing. Also, Machines don’t retaliate, so Denounce Heretic may be of use.

    Then Shrines. 10 points +2x lost – but Divine Vengeance and Ram attack are not inhinited. Also, Static Shield on Gold makes Ram a much more appealing option.

    Lastly, Elite Exalted gain 2 damage channels, +3 Fire and +3 Lightning.

    So it’s just a matter of making your armies work – and that is ignoring the options race and specs give you.

    #213814

    Zaskow
    Member

    Evangelists are no frontline units – it doesn’t matter much that they lose spirit damage, because they won’t attack anyway.

    Why then devs give them relatively powerful melee attack? Just for show? Also Touch of Faith and Convert are one-use abilities, so what after that?

    #213816

    Smaug3
    Member

    Evangelists are no frontline units – it doesn’t matter much that they lose spirit damage, because they won’t attack anyway.

    Why then devs give them relatively powerful melee attack? Just for show? Also Touch of Faith and Convert are one-use abilities, so what after that?

    Healing? They’re designed to go with martyrs. That attack is not for show, but it is for finishing enemies off, not starting fist fights. It’s powerful, sure, but they’re almost as squishy as the glutton. They are not for prolonged fighting.

    #213819

    Zaskow
    Member

    It’s powerful, sure, but they’re almost as squishy as the glutton. They are not for prolonged fighting.

    Their attack would be ideal vs. machines, because most machines don’t answer on attacks. But it’s quite problematic with spirit immunity of machines…

    #213825

    Smaug3
    Member

    It’s powerful, sure, but they’re almost as squishy as the glutton. They are not for prolonged fighting.

    Their attack would be ideal vs. machines, because most machines don’t answer on attacks. But it’s quite problematic with spirit immunity of machines…

    But that’s not what the evangelist is built for. It’s not an anti-machine unit, it’s the epitome of buffers. If the evangelist was built for fighting hand-to-hand, then yes, I would say that it should probably get something like demolisher, as it is negating its biggest advantage. However, the evangelist isn’t for major battles. The assassin got undead slayer because it was losing out on it’s blight damage, and the assassin is designed for killing units. The evangelist, however, is not.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by  President.
    #213834

    Zaskow
    Member

    But that’s not what the evangelist is built for. It’s not an anti-machine unit, it’s the epitome of buffers. If the evangelist was built for fighting hand-to-hand, then yes, I would say that it should probably get something like demolisher, as it is negating its biggest advantage. However, the evangelist isn’t for major battles. The assassin got undead slayer because it was losing out on it’s blight damage, and the assassin is designed for killing units. The evangelist, however, is not.

    I agree with that, but this was a bit offtopic. I’m fine with Evangelists as they are.

    #213840

    LordTyrael
    Member

    Ok, so you absolutely don’t care of what we are talking about, you are only looking at winning an argument, and your only requirement is to make a logicaly true sentence.

    But on the real game, when you actualy play, you never have an infinite amount of money available, and the time it takes you to gather it and produce your units actualy matters a lot. Funadamental game mechanics you said ?

    Golem can be mass produced in that context, the objections are meaningless to the discussion and contributes nothing. Like some of us have suspected for the last 20 pages, this is an ideological struggle for you, when it came to game mechanics insight and dread class knowledge, i can’t see it. Ironically, winning an argument seems to be your only agenda, at any costs. By insults or exaggerations, even childish drama and derailing the discussion when it doesn’t go your way, when people actually did care to discuss the different options and try to evaluate the suggestions, never once did you actually care to participate and discuss the details.

    I am concerned with this topic and i’d like to have an honest discussion going but the last pages is for most part an ideological struggle, what should or shouldn’t be rather than, let’s evaluate what others are saying and let’s pay attention to details.

    If you’d like to prove me wrong(i’ll gladly concede if i’m wrong) start by explaining when Haywire divine vengeance, would cause an imbalance. Give your specifics that causes this line of thought, so far this remains a mystery.

    #213844

    Ericridge
    Member

    I’m getting tired of theocrat vs dreadnought argument now, especially when theocrat supporters keep on acting like dreadnoughts is wizard kings in disguise and always have a perfect sphere choice to counter anything and everything they could and can do.

    #213851

    NINJEW
    Member

    i regret starting to read this thread

    #213886

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    If you’d like to prove me wrong(i’ll gladly concede if i’m wrong) start by explaining when Haywire divine vengeance, would cause an imbalance. Give your specifics that causes this line of thought, so far this remains a mystery.

    Let’s first take a look on Necro Class units (which are in a way machines as well).
    Lost Souls lose 50% of their damage.
    Banshee loses 2 thirds.
    Reanimator, depending on race, but mostly 50%
    Death bringer: 20%
    Dread Reaper: 2 thirds.
    The only unit working well is Bone Collector. Also, forget all abilities: no ghouling, no despair, no nothing.
    What Necro got is Banshee’s wailing may Haywire machines. Which means, when a Necro is fighting machines they can forget a lot of their units and must rely on Bone Collectors assisted by a Banshee plus RACIAL units. (And Golems hard-counter physical damage doers just as well, except that Bone Collectors have Demolisher x2.)

    So you want Haywire on Divine Vengeance. Divine Vengeance is a DAMAGING attack, doing 10 Fire and 20 Shock. That is, a Shrine of Smiting WILL do a lot of damage to every machine in range: they have a shock Weakness at that, Golems and Juggernauts even 40%. The machines have also very low resistance. Which means, haywire would have very good chances to actually work, which would in turn mean, that one Shrine could more or less deal with a whole array of machines all by itself.
    Additionally, Shrines gain Static Shield on Elite, making it that much harder, making the Ram attack a nightmare.
    Which means, Haywire on a 30 damage big area atack would be monstrous. Imnagine Banshees, not Inflicting Despair with it, but, say, 12 shock damage; would Haywire on them still be such a good idea?

    #213897

    Zaskow
    Member

    The only unit working well is Bone Collector. Also, forget all abilities: no ghouling, no despair, no nothing.

    Theocrat hasn’t even this.

    So you want Haywire on Divine Vengeance. Divine Vengeance is a DAMAGING attack, doing 10 Fire and 20 Shock. That is, a Shrine of Smiting WILL do a lot of damage to every machine in range: they have a shock Weakness at that, Golems and Juggernauts even 40%. The machines have also very low resistance.

    They have normal res similar to most living units.
    Also Divine Vengeance is one-use ability and for maximum effectiveness you must go with shrines deep into enemy lines. After using Shrine will be destroyed with guaranty.

    Which means, haywire would have very good chances to actually work, which would in turn mean, that one Shrine could more or less deal with a whole array of machines all by itself.

    This doesn’t mean anything because haywire works and checks through PHYSICAL channel.

    Additionally, Shrines gain Static Shield on Elite, making it that much harder, making the Ram attack a nightmare.

    Do you even know how Static Shield works? It works only if enemy ATTACKS your unit with static shield. All units won’t answer on Ram attacks.

    Which means, Haywire on a 30 damage big area atack would be monstrous. Imnagine Banshees, not Inflicting Despair with it, but, say, 12 shock damage; would Haywire on them still be such a good idea?

    Do you remember what we actually suggested? We suggested to swap shock damage in Divine Vengeance to spirit and add Haywire. Also we suggested to add shock into Smiting bolts instead spirit.

    #213905

    NINJEW
    Member

    They have normal res similar to most living units.

    T2 units with a lower res than the Golem, a complete list:

    Black Knight
    Prowler
    Sabertooth Chariot
    Tigran Assassin
    Tigran Berserker
    Phantasm Warrior
    Lesser Earth Elemental

    Funny how if you remove Tigran units, which have -1 res as a racial trait, you Halve the list

    9 Res is pretty bad man. Anything below 10 can be very safely called “shit resistance,” since at that point you’re actually adding damage onto your opponent’s attacks

    Lets look at the list of T3s that have a lower res than Cannons or Flame Tanks, which only have 10 apiece:

    Orc Shock Trooper
    Tigran Warbreed
    Orc Warbreed
    Ogre
    Earth Elemental

    Man, that’s not a very big list either, is it? I wonder how the Juggernaut fares amongst its peers?

    T4 units with less res than the Juggernaut:

    … huh. Why, funny story, there aren’t any! It’s almost as if the Juggernaut has the lowest Res possible for a T4 unit! Isn’t that interesting!

    #213911

    Buczer
    Member

    Do you even know how Static Shield works? It works only if enemy ATTACKS your unit with static shield. All units won’t answer on Ram attacks.

    Jeez, Zaskow, I though it was obvious JJ was talking about GOING MELEE at all by decreacing range. Static shield makes melee safer option becouse attacking it with meele is more dangerous. Ramming shrine with juggernaut can be really bad idea, so with cooldown on mortar it makes jugg more easy to deal with.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by  President.
    #213925

    Perhaps one day you will understand the concept of using evidence to back up a statement.

    Ok.
    Cherub – 2 pts of spirit dmg lost. Can be compensated by heretic (that’s why I didn’t mention them).
    Evangelist – 8 pts of spirit damage lost. +3 pts from heretic can’t compensate.
    Exalted – 4 pts of spirit damage lost. +3 pts from heretic almost fixes this, but unit loses multichannel and 1 pt of dmg.
    Shrine – 10 pts lost. I took minimum, losses are much heavier with devout escort present. Heretic doesn’t work on shrines, because it isn’t devout.

    Is thi enough evidence?

    Ex Nihil beat you to it, and I replied…like 2 pages ago.

    I’m getting tired of repeating myself.

    #213930

    LordTyrael
    Member

    Let’s first take a look on Necro Class units (which are in a way machines as well).
    Lost Souls lose 50% of their damage.
    Banshee loses 2 thirds.
    Reanimator, depending on race, but mostly 50%
    Death bringer: 20%
    Dread Reaper: 2 thirds.
    The only unit working well is Bone Collector. Also, forget all abilities: no ghouling, no despair, no nothing.
    What Necro got is Banshee’s wailing may Haywire machines. Which means, when a Necro is fighting machines they can forget a lot of their units and must rely on Bone Collectors assisted by a Banshee plus RACIAL units. (And Golems hard-counter physical damage doers just as well, except that Bone Collectors have Demolisher x2.)

    Apart from Haywire. What does this have to do with topic? If there is a balance issue with dreadnought machines and necromancers a new appropriate thread should be made for those who care.

    Can’t justify theocrat and dreadnought balance with another class having the same or worse issues. The way i see it, dreadnought machine spirit immunity should be looked into and new options reducing machine spirit protection should be considered for specialisations, like there is for blight and to lesser extent physical.

    So you want Haywire on Divine Vengeance. Divine Vengeance is a DAMAGING attack, doing 10 Fire and 20 Shock. That is, a Shrine of Smiting WILL do a lot of damage to every machine in range: they have a shock Weakness at that, Golems and Juggernauts even 40%. The machines have also very low resistance. Which means, haywire would have very good chances to actually work, which would in turn mean, that one Shrine could more or less deal with a whole array of machines all by itself.
    Additionally, Shrines gain Static Shield on Elite, making it that much harder, making the Ram attack a nightmare.
    Which means, Haywire on a 30 damage big area atack would be monstrous. Imnagine Banshees, not Inflicting Despair with it, but, say, 12 shock damage; would Haywire on them still be such a good idea?

    Yes that’s right, in range. Divine vengeance has 4 hex reach, which means shrine is going to get hit before it gets into range and ranged dreadnought machines can also resort to kiting. Made worse since Shrine has a FIRE weakness, it’s vulnerable to flame tanks but also mortar bombardments.

    First of all, machines do not have very low resistance, and the two most shock vulnerable machines also have high hp for their tier. Juggernaut has 11 which is one lower than shrine, the Flame tanks and cannons have 10 which is one lower than average T3 resistance, golem is T2 and has 9 res which is the standard res of T2 cavalry like the average human cavalry, golem has more HP than cavalry and can take more hits unless from shock damage. Besides, machines has one of the more accessible mystical site available, +10hp. This is a consequence of the RMG updates.

    You’re mistaken, haywire do not check against resistance, it checks against defence. Machines and their high defence have a good chance of resisting that, and besides haywire is NOT a normal stun, first it checks 16 def proc against defence. If it worked now the machine has a lower 12 def proc to be stunned whenever it acts. This means the machine can go on attacking before it is stunned.

    Imnagine Banshees, not Inflicting Despair with it, but, say, 12 shock damage; would Haywire on them still be such a good idea?

    Wail of despair(Banshee, Haywire) has 1 turn cd, divine vengeance is once per battle. Shrine is T4 endgame unit, they’re supposed to be powerful.

    Is it a good idea, is it balanced?

    Take the following into consideration.

    -Divine vengeance is once per battle.
    -Divine vengeance has 4 hex reach.
    -Shrine of Smiting has 20% fire weakness
    -Dreadnought has an aoe long range hybrid fire attack. This unit also has High defense and works as spammable.
    -Flame tanks can roast a Shrine if it gets too close.
    -Shrine of Smiting is not a good unit to spam, they need devout units for damage and strategic hp recovery.

    My conclusion is, this is a good idea. The creator of this idea, BBB had a moment of ingenuity.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by  President.
    #213932

    LordTyrael
    Member

    I’m getting tired of theocrat vs dreadnought argument now, especially when theocrat supporters keep on acting like dreadnoughts is wizard kings in disguise and always have a perfect sphere choice to counter anything and everything they could and can do.

    i regret starting to read this thread

    I’m getting very tired of reading this sort of crap here, can’t contribute and make proper arguments, then don’t.

    #213933

    Zaskow
    Member

    T2 units with a lower res than the Golem, a complete list:

    Black Knight
    Prowler
    Sabertooth Chariot
    Tigran Assassin
    Tigran Berserker
    Phantasm Warrior
    Lesser Earth Elemental

    You forgot:
    Orc and Tigran musketeers;
    Orc berserker;
    Orc and tigran mount archers.

    Also did you try to count t2 units with 9 res, just as Golems have? 9 res is common for t2s.

    Jeez, Zaskow, I though it was obvious JJ was talking about GOING MELEE at all by decreacing range.

    Problem is that most machines don’t go in melee. So, mentioning about “nightmare ram with static shield” is senseless.

    I’m getting tired of repeating myself.

    Maybe, you just need to stop repeating ridiculous and wrong things? Mark of heretic can’t compensate at full capacity losses of dmg for Theo against machines. That’s all.

    #213938

    LordTyrael
    Member

    Problem is that most machines don’t go in melee. So, mentioning about “nightmare ram with static shield” is senseless.

    That’s correct, why on earth would anyone use ram when the class units have the most powerful artillery or ranged attacks. Golems shouldn’t melee gold medal shrines except when it is tactical favorable, other threats have been eliminated and golems, the dread player can afford the stun in exchange for more damage.

    Maybe, you just need to stop repeating ridiculous and wrong things? Mark of heretic can’t compensate at full capacity losses of dmg for Theo against machines. That’s all.

    This is not respecful, besides BBB is a nice guy. Let’s leave insults like this outside of this discussion.

    #213939

    Maybe, you just need to stop repeating ridiculous and wrong things?

    Except ofcourse that they aren’t wrong, and have been used to show that your assertion were the wrong ones.

    Your argument is that Theocrat without the spirit damage is somehow useless against a Theocrat.

    I have shown this to be not the case.

    If you wish to dispute this then by all means do so, with reference to 1 – facts and 2 – what I have written, i.e. my line of reasoning – specifically how it relates to yours, as summarised here:, “Theocrat units use spirit damage—>Dread units are immune to spirit damage—>therefore Theocrat is totally screwed”

    However, simple analysis of facts shows that:

    You have 7 racial units,

    7 class units.

    So 14 units to rely on.

    Of those, you have 4 class units that do spirit damage.

    Of those 4, none of them do purely spirit damage, listed below:

    Cherub
    Evangelist
    Exalted
    Shrine

    Of these, only 2 are used for dealing damage.

    You do not use Cherubs for fighting – they are Scouts.
    You do not use Evangelists to deal damage, they are for buffing, healing and converting (and with denounce heretic, for guaranteeing enemy units get classed as heretics)

    That leaves Exalted with 13 physical and 4 spirit damage (except the Human with 10 physical and 8 spirit -a change that you yourself Zaskow pushed for. So congrats you f*cked Human Theocrats with your impeccable logic and reasoning).

    And Shrines with 10 fire and 10 spirit.

    Now, with Exalted, mark of the heretic guarantees an extra 3 melee damage, so you lose 4 spirit, and gain 3 melee – so you’ll be hitting for 16 physical attack, which against every machine that isn’t a Golem is quite respectable.

    For the Shrine, as shown earlier, 5 escorting Devout units is easy enough to manage (even if just 5 Cherubs there purely to power it up) which means an attack of 20 fire, which will hurt *any* machine other than a Flametank.

    So, the claim that the Theocrat is reliant on Spirit damage is now shown to be false, and therefore too is the entire argument that rests on that assumption.

    At this point, *any* Specialisation the Theocrat picks is going to help, but the class units themselves are capable.

    However, ofcourse there are the (minimum) 7 racial units that are more or less guaranteed, and other than Humans with Priests, no race is going to suffer from spirit immunity on machines.

    That is an example of using the evidence to inform and support/disagree with a statement.

    However:

    Mark of heretic can’t compensate at full capacity losses of dmg for Theo against machines. That’s all.

    is the very opposite – a statement thrown out as a truism with no supporting evidence, basically equivalent to a child screaming “I’m right, you’re wrong nanananana!

    Hell, at least ExNihil constructs actual arguments.

    So basically it comes down to, again, the central question you have no answer to:

    What is the Dread doing against the Theo that he can’t do against anyone else?

    Golems will hurt anything they fight in melee.
    Cannons are nice regardless of who you fight.
    Flametanks are tasty.
    Juggernauts are Juggernauts.

    If the Dread goes for a mixed living and machine army, Theo can counter the living parts pretty easily and has to work a bit harder to counter the machines.

    If the Dread uses an all machine army, then Crusaders can tank Golems, Exalted can attack nearly everything else, Flametanks are to be avoided (by any class) and ganged up on (thankfully they are fairly pricey) and Shrines will hurt any machine one on one, except a Juggernaut (which makes sense, t4 versus t4) but the devout powered damage (not to mention the area of effect) evens things out a bit.

    Basically, for those arguing that the Theo needs heavy buffs, I would ask how is this matchup so much more lopsided than Warlord versus Rogue, or Necromancer versus Sorceror etc?

    My conclusion is, this is a good idea. The creator of this idea, BBB had a moment of ingenuity.

    Why thankyou :).

    If this change were implemented I wouldn’t complain, as it is very specific and imho that is more important than general Theo buffs. I did propose it with the caveat that it was a solution to what I understood the perceived problem to be, namely late game Theo against Dread (although Zaskow is now trying to make us believe that Dread has all the advantages all the time) specifically upto armageddon.

    However, as I have explained since then, I’m not convinced that the stated problem is so problematic as to require tweaking, above what has already been implemented, but *if* there were further tweaks, they would need to be very targeted and specific, like that one.

    #213944

    Zaskow
    Member

    You do not use Evangelists to deal damage, they are for buffing, healing and converting (and with denounce heretic, for guaranteeing enemy units get classed as heretics)

    Not using Evangelists to inflict damage when it’s possible – I didn’t hear bigger silliness. I even don’t mind evangelists-shooters.

    For the Shrine, as shown earlier, 5 escorting Devout units is easy enough to manage (even if just 5 Cherubs there purely to power it up) which means an attack of 20 fire, which will hurt *any* machine other than a Flametank.

    Hah, it isn’t very impressively against machines. Juggers hit much harder and not 1 target.

    the claim that the Theocrat is reliant on Spirit damage is now shown to be false

    *facepalm*

    Theo units lose a big part of damage without spirit. Most powerful theo spells are based on spirit channel. Your blindness to ignore this is unbelievable.

    Flametanks are to be avoided (by any class)

    What a nice tactics!

    Basically, for those arguing that the Theo needs heavy buffs

    *facepalm*

    Did you even try to read our suggestions? We suggested Haywire on shrines (works ONLY against machines) and rebalance Smiting bolts for shock damage. Are these heavy buffs?

    #213950

    Gloweye
    Member

    and rebalance Smiting bolts for shock damage. Are these heavy buffs?

    Yes. Shock is perhaps the least resisted damage channel in the game. Aside, removing/lowering spirit damage doesn’t sound like a good idea regardless – it’s pretty much the flavor of the unit here.

    Why don’t you try posting your detailed reasoning, like BBB just did? Having some factual evidence that supports your claim might help, because statements like:

    *facepalm*

    Theo units lose a big part of damage without spirit. Most powerful theo spells are based on spirit channel. Your blindness to ignore this is unbelievable.

    don’t really help. Some examples? which incredibly strong spells are ruled out?
    (Did you say power of the word? cause you’re wrong. You don’t want to use that on an enemy that has better ranged capabilities than you do, unless you’ve already tied him down in melee. And even then the use is questionable. And Holy War is close enough to Armageddon to make it useful again.)

    What a nice tactics!

    Isn’t an argument either.

    Not using Evangelists to inflict damage when it’s possible – I didn’t hear bigger silliness. I even don’t mind evangelists-shooters.

    And this is pretty much laugable. Evangelists should only melee against undead and perhaps others with severe spirit weakness – it’s just not worth in other cases, since they don’t have the defenses to stay in T3+ melee combat. As for the ranged variants, one is the human(which can be regarded as non-ranged vs dread, and most likely like a bad unit to build vs dread anyway), and the draconian(which is pretty strong, invalidating your primary argument(theocrat is weak) pretty much just the same.) And that’s not even considering that you’re to close the distance, which you might not want your squishy support units to do against Dread artillery before you’ve tied them down with your exalted.

    As a bottom line, there’s a reason required to change stuff, not for it to remain the same. And as a reason, you’re going to have to provide some significant number issues. Like % of spirit damage a theocrat actually deals(I think you’ll be surprised if you do the math…), over all his race+class units over the entire length of an average game, or some tournament number showing that all Dreads beat Theocrats regardless of player skill levels over a significant number of games.

    if none of these can be provided, there’s no reason for a change. TBH I haven’t seen any of those.

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