Theocrat endgame

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This topic contains 1,253 replies, has 52 voices, and was last updated by  Ericridge 7 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #213953

    Gloweye
    Member

    BTW, let me do some of the math for you:

    Given that the Theocrat player isn’t to smart and only builds class units (laughable, I admit – racial T3’s are a significant part of any Theocrat’s strategy), this is the numbers of the unleveled damage-oriented units(other/spirit, % spirit, other/spirit per attack):

    Crusader: 12/0, 0%, 36/0
    Exalted: 13/4, 23,5%, 39/12
    Shrine: 10/10 and 30/0, 50% and 0%, 10/10 and 30/0

    So if your 3 class damage units all have a single full attack, they’ll deal a total of 85 physical and 24 spirit damage. That means that 28% of your damage is resisted. While that’s significant, that’s the worst case scenario in here. Unless you’re playing humans, you’ll do better than this. And even if you play humans, you’re plain stupid if you aren’t evolving some knights to do some of the heavy work here, so you should be doing better regardless.

    Should you disagree with the above assessment, please post some numbers instead of some random statements about how Theocrat is screwed.

    #213954

    Dr_K
    Member

    (Did you say power of the word? cause you’re wrong. You don’t want to use that on an enemy that has better ranged capabilities than you do, unless you’ve already tied him down in melee. And even then the use is questionable. And Holy War is close enough to Armageddon to make it useful again.)

    Also, Slayer’s Doubt, one those other pesky Theocrat spells that doesn’t work on Machines pre-armageddon doesn’t work after it anyway. In fact neither does Power of the Word. Both are just as useless after Armageddon than they were before it when used against ONLY machines.

    We suggested Haywire on shrines (works ONLY against machines) and rebalance Smiting bolts for shock damage. Are these heavy buffs?

    Yes and no. The swapping damage channels is an exceptionally heavy buff for your situation as Gloweye mentioned. Shrines prior to Armageddon. So it does help solve the “issue” that is perceived for the Theocrat prior to Armageddon.

    But it completely destroys the Shrines effectiveness post-Armageddon. Spirit damage should not be removed from the Smiting Prayer Bolts attack. Otherwise the shrine receives almost no incentive to be used frequently when armageddon is up.

    Should you disagree with the above assessment, please post some numbers instead of some random statements about how Theocrat is screwed.

    You have exceptionally high expectations.

    #213963

    ephafn
    Member

    Should you disagree with the above assessment, please post some numbers instead of some random statements about how Theocrat is screwed.

    A suggestion to everyone part of that discussion:

    Those who think that the Theocrat is too weak against the Dreadnaught, please design a stack of 6 units available to a Dread that is hard to counter by a Theocrat as possible. Assuming everything is researched but ultimate spells are not cast (Great Mobilization + Armaggedon). Do not include heroes, but racial and spec units are fine. Try to make the stack as cheap as possible (counting research discounts)

    Those who think that the Theocrat is not too weak, please try to create a stack of 6 units available to a Theocrat that can reliably defeat the Dread stack designed previously using Auto-Combat.

    In both case, assume freshly-recruited units and no mythical sites.

    Then, we could test the two stacks in game to see if there is a problem or not.

    Hopefully that should shed some light toward whether there is an unbalance or not, as I get the feeling that the vast majority of this thread is made of theory-crafting (on both sides).
    Obviously it won’t consider everything, but that should be a good start, no?

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by  President.
    #213975

    *facepalm*

    Did you even try to read our suggestions? We suggested Haywire on shrines (works ONLY against machines) and rebalance Smiting bolts for shock damage. Are these heavy buffs?

    Who’s We?

    I suggested it, ME, not you.

    Are you seriously trying to accuse me of not reading my own suggestion? Are you yourself reading anything in this thread? It seems doubtful, which makes me wonder if I really am wasting my time with you.

    At this point I honestly think you’re not even making a token effort to understand other people’s points of view here.

    Hah, it isn’t very impressively against machines. Juggers hit much harder and not 1 target.

    20 fire damage against 11 resistance (Juggernaut resistance). You do know how the damage formula works, right?

    Str + 10 – DefensiveStat * (multiplier range .8 to 1.2) * Protection/Weakness.

    That means 19 (+/- 20%) fire damage each turn. I fail to see how that is bad damage, from long range.

    And so what if juggernauts hit harder? That is what they are good at.

    They need reloading though, so that means Engineers, which are squishy.

    Not using Evangelists to inflict damage when it’s possible – I didn’t hear bigger silliness. I even don’t mind evangelists-shooters.

    Do you also use Engineers as damage troops? They can do some damage, but that is not their primary role.

    BLOODYBATTLEBRAIN wrote:
    Flametanks are to be avoided (by any class)
    What a nice tactics!

    I know! Great tactics – avoid getting damaged until you can do something. However, go on Genius, explain to me what amazing tactics you are using.

    *facepalm*

    Theo units lose a big part of damage without spirit. Most powerful theo spells are based on spirit channel. Your blindness to ignore this is unbelievable.

    You still don’t realise that I addressed that very point about 2 or 3 pages ago, do you?

    #213978

    Zaskow
    Member

    Given that the Theocrat player isn’t to smart and only builds class units

    So what? Dread can build racial units too. He has a few very nice upgrades for them, BTW.

    That means that 28% of your damage is resisted.

    While dread hasn’t such problems, except you don’t use something special racial units.

    The swapping damage channels is an exceptionally heavy buff for your situation as Gloweye mentioned. Shrines prior to Armageddon. So it does help solve the “issue” that is perceived for the Theocrat prior to Armageddon.

    Spirit damage should not be removed from the Smiting Prayer Bolts attack. Otherwise the shrine receives almost no incentive to be used frequently when armageddon is up.

    Actually original suggestion was to change 10 fire + 10 spirit attack to 7 fire + 7 shock + 7 spirit. Spirit dmg is still present.

    And even if you play humans, you’re plain stupid if you aren’t evolving some knights to do some of the heavy work here, so you should be doing better regardless.

    Cavalry evolving isn’t guaranteed when you use autocombat massively. Also Dread has an advantage in producing armored T3s, because Solid Engineering (buff) and Great Blacksmith (discount).

    Do you also use Engineers as damage troops? They can do some damage, but that is not their primary role.

    When it’s possible, blunderbuss is devastating attack.

    #213982

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    The only unit working well is Bone Collector. Also, forget all abilities: no ghouling, no despair, no nothing.

    Theocrat hasn’t even this.

    Crusader?

    So you want Haywire on Divine Vengeance. Divine Vengeance is a DAMAGING attack, doing 10 Fire and 20 Shock. That is, a Shrine of Smiting WILL do a lot of damage to every machine in range: they have a shock Weakness at that, Golems and Juggernauts even 40%. The machines have also very low resistance.

    They have normal res similar to most living units.
    Also Divine Vengeance is one-use ability and for maximum effectiveness you must go with shrines deep into enemy lines. After using Shrine will be destroyed with guaranty.

    You have to find the BEST use, which includes not sacrificing the Shrine, obviously. Since this is all about MP only, the question is what the AI does.

    Which means, haywire would have very good chances to actually work, which would in turn mean, that one Shrine could more or less deal with a whole array of machines all by itself.

    This doesn’t mean anything because haywire works and checks through PHYSICAL channel.[/quote]Wouldn’t there be TWO checks? One, if you ARE subject to the check at all, and another, when you chose an action, whether you are haywired?

    Additionally, Shrines gain Static Shield on Elite, making it that much harder, making the Ram attack a nightmare.

    Do you even know how Static Shield works? It works only if enemy ATTACKS your unit with static shield. All units won’t answer on Ram attacks.

    And there
    I thought GOLEMS were such a problem…

    Which means, Haywire on a 30 damage big area atack would be monstrous. Imnagine Banshees, not Inflicting Despair with it, but, say, 12 shock damage; would Haywire on them still be such a good idea?

    Do you remember what we actually suggested? We suggested to swap shock damage in Divine Vengeance to spirit and add Haywire. Also we suggested to add shock into Smiting bolts instead spirit.

    WE?
    The problem is that SMITING Bolts can’t have shock damage. If THAT would get shock damage I’d want shock damage for EVERY class. Instead you have a monstrously good divine vengeance and a Golem Killer. Why wopuld you have a ram attack when you had smiting Bolts doing shock damage?

    #213989

    Gloweye
    Member

    Those who think that the Theocrat is too weak against the Dreadnaught, please design a stack of 6 units available to a Dread that is hard to counter by a Theocrat as possible. Assuming everything is researched but ultimate spells are not cast (Great Mobilization + Armaggedon). Do not include heroes, but racial and spec units are fine. Try to make the stack as cheap as possible (counting research discounts)

    Those who think that the Theocrat is not too weak, please try to create a stack of 6 units available to a Theocrat that can reliably defeat the Dread stack designed previously using Auto-Combat.

    Hopefully that should shed some light toward whether there is an unbalance or not, as I get the feeling that the vast majority of this thread is made of theory-crafting (on both sides).
    Obviously it won’t consider everything, but that should be a good start, no?

    I’ve got an easier one. Currently, the game is as it is. Everyone who wants a change based on balance issues can make a case that obeys the above quality standards. Changes not on balance issues don’t belong in this thread or forum.

    A lot of bullshit not containing even a single number from the game that we’re playing.

    ReallY?

    Given that the Theocrat player isn’t to smart and only builds class units

    So what? Dread can build racial units too. He has a few very nice upgrades for them, BTW.

    That’s quite a skewed one here.

    So let’s say Dread builds racials. In that case, he doesn’t use the advantages you’re claiming are so OP the theocrat is helpless. If you are right with your claim of unbalance, this Dread is stupid and doesn’t exist in games where skill actually matters.

    So, if you’re correct on your balance claim, then either all Dreads are brainless idiots or you just made a very stupid remark that, while factually correct, has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Pick your choice.

    Gloweye wrote:
    That means that 28% of your damage is resisted.
    While dread hasn’t such problems, except you don’t use something special racial units.

    Directly contradictionary to your above quote. Also, significantly small enough that Theocrat superior strategic mobility can be used to compensate, since machines have a slow 28 movement and no movement abilities whatsoever.(Yeah, 36 with march of the machines. Guess what? 80% spirit weakness with armageddon to. Balance=equal circumstances. As long as you count your machines as spirit immune, we’re also counting them at 28 MP no abilities.)

    Actually original suggestion was to change 10 fire + 10 spirit attack to 7 fire + 7 shock + 7 spirit. Spirit dmg is still present.

    Which is even more laughable OP.

    Cavalry evolving isn’t guaranteed when you use autocombat massively. Also Dread has an advantage in producing armored T3s, because Solid Engineering (buff) and Great Blacksmith (discount).

    That would mean you’re A) not building enough, B) not using Theocrat healing to keep them alive, and I’ve already mentioned why those Armored T3’s aren’t even remotely relevant to the discussion.

    When it’s possible, blunderbuss is devastating attack.

    Which means BBB is right here. You see, the similarity is that they’re both gonna die if you even attempt to use them that way, unless it’s a finishing blow and/or you’re heavily in the advantage of army strength and/or numbers. No, it doesn’t matter evangelists are T3’s here. Dread cannons/flame tanks/juggernauts/golems will kill them almost as hard as [random theo units] kill engineers. Harder, if you’re counting it against construction costs. The only thing Evangelists got to do on the front lines is healing crusaders, racial T3’s and the occasional Exalted, if it’s safe for the evangelist.

    I repeat, please come with numbers or don’t come back here at all. I’m getting pretty tired of your endless repeating of stale arguments since page 2, hence I’m participating in an attempt to stop this monstrosity.

    #213995

    Zaskow
    Member

    Crusader?

    Do Crusaders have demolisher*2? At least goblin has demolisher*1.

    Wouldn’t there be TWO checks? One, if you ARE subject to the check at all, and another, when you chose an action, whether you are haywired?

    Haywire checks at 16 def to inflict haywired status on unit firstly and then it check at 12 def when machine attacks for inflicting stun.

    And there
    I thought GOLEMS were such a problem…

    At this stage your main problems will be tanks and juggers.

    The problem is that SMITING Bolts can’t have shock damage.

    I don’t get this strange logic. Smite from the heavens could have shock aspect, right? Why Divine Vengeance can, but Smiting bolts can’t?

    Why wopuld you have a ram attack when you had smiting Bolts doing shock damage?

    Why then flame tanks have ram? They can’t be disengaged.

    #213997

    Zaskow
    Member

    Theocrat superior strategic mobility can be used to compensate

    *rofl*

    Plz, go for superior strategic mobility to AD or Rogue or Sorc. Present of 2 (two) flying units (one from them is scout) and 1 floating doesn’t make Theocrat super mobile.

    Which is even more laughable OP.

    OP? Try to use math and understand that multichannel goes to crap when uses against high resistant targets.

    B) not using Theocrat healing to keep them alive, and I’ve already mentioned why those Armored T3’s aren’t even remotely relevant to the discussion.

    Using healing in AI autocombats? Sure…

    That would mean you’re A) not building enough

    You know I must build not only cavalry, but supports, settlers and building

    The only thing Evangelists got to do on the front lines is healing crusaders, racial T3’s and the occasional Exalted, if it’s safe for the evangelist.

    And attack, shoot, flanking enemies if possible. If you don’t do this use evangelists aren’t used at full capacity.

    #213998

    The Mentat
    Member

    Crusader: 12/0, 0%, 36/0
    Exalted: 13/4, 23,5%, 39/12
    Shrine: 10/10 and 30/0, 50% and 0%, 10/10 and 30/0

    Compared with other classes that’s not really great.

    Let’s assume the Dreadnought has a Juggernaut (15 Def, 110 HP)

    If I use class units at this stage I will mostly have Exalted: That’s 13 damage and 55 HP, against the Juggernaut 8 damage.

    A Rogue can use Shadow Stalkers against it: 10 physical, 12 frost damage, 60 HP, so 16 damage vs. Juggernauts. 60% physical resistance helps against cannons

    A Necromancer will build Bone Collectors: 15 + 8 damage, 70 HP This means 18 damage per attack. Additionally they have reinforced but also 20% fire weakness though.

    Regarding racial units: Griffin Riders have 15 physical; thus 10 in this case. Still not a extremely powerful option.

    Did you say power of the word? cause you’re wrong. You don’t want to use that on an enemy that has better ranged capabilities than you do, unless you’ve already tied him down in melee. And even then the use is questionable.

    I actually would prefer if Shrines would get Immobilized (against machines) instead of Haywire. Immobilized is definitely useful against ranged machines because otherwise they just move away from a melee unit and attack again. The opportunity attack is not very impressive against Juggernauts and a Exalted is dead after two Cannon Shots.

    Hence if Theocrat gets an ability to immobilize machines I don’t think further balance would be needed.

    #214001

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ Zaskow
    the AI uses Heal as much as possible.

    #214004

    Gloweye
    Member

    Theocrat superior strategic mobility can be used to compensate

    *rofl*

    Plz, go for superior strategic mobility to AD or Rogue or Sorc. Present of 2 (two) flying units (one from them is scout) and 1 floating doesn’t make Theocrat super mobile.

    This point has already been pointed out my many other people. Just repeating your opinion has no effect on what is or what isn’t. Neither does your thick skill.

    Compared to Dread, Theo is pretty mobile. Shrine+5 Exalted makes for not to expensive stacks that the Dread has real issues catching without far superior forces.

    Which is even more laughable OP.

    OP? Try to use math and understand that multichannel goes to crap when uses against high resistant targets.

    I’ve used math. Now it’s your turn.

    B) not using Theocrat healing to keep them alive, and I’ve already mentioned why those Armored T3’s aren’t even remotely relevant to the discussion.

    Using healing in AI autocombats? Sure…

    Do you even play the game? Apparently not.

    That would mean you’re A) not building enough

    You know I must build not only cavalry, but supports, settlers and building

    Quote my entire phrase there please. You can’t just leave out the pieces you can’t argue against and expect anyone to take you seriously.

    Zaskow wrote:
    Cavalry evolving isn’t guaranteed when you use autocombat massively. Also Dread has an advantage in producing armored T3s, because Solid Engineering (buff) and Great Blacksmith (discount).
    That would mean you’re A) not building enough, B) not using Theocrat healing to keep them alive, and I’ve already mentioned why those Armored T3’s aren’t even remotely relevant to the discussion.

    There it is. Now what exactly does your above response have to do with it? That your cities have more to build? T2 cavalry can be 1-turned by a Theocrat without that much of an issue – human cavalry costs only 90 gold. And somewhere around 2 supports are more than you need to keep them alive long enough to evolve over half of them.

    The only thing Evangelists got to do on the front lines is healing crusaders, racial T3’s and the occasional Exalted, if it’s safe for the evangelist.

    And attack, shoot, flanking enemies if possible. If you don’t do this use evangelists aren’t used at full capacity.

    this is so stupid I’m not even going to answer it. I suggest you find a decent Theocrat somewhere and play Dread against him.

    Crusader: 12/0, 0%, 36/0
    Exalted: 13/4, 23,5%, 39/12
    Shrine: 10/10 and 30/0, 50% and 0%, 10/10 and 30/0

    Compared with other classes that’s not really great.

    Never claimed it was great. But I did claim that the balance issue is unproven(or small enough to be acceptable), which is the first thing to do if changes are to be made. I posted that as a worst case scenario, when you’re not using any race units. If you get access to Firstborns or Gryphons I’d build those instead for pretty much everything that isn’t primarily harrassment.

    Let’s assume the Dreadnought has a Juggernaut (15 Def, 110 HP)

    If I use class units at this stage I will mostly have Exalted: That’s 13 damage and 55 HP, against the Juggernaut 8 damage.

    A Rogue can use Shadow Stalkers against it: 10 physical, 12 frost damage, 60 HP, so 16 damage vs. Juggernauts. 60% physical resistance helps against cannons

    A Necromancer will build Bone Collectors: 15 + 8 damage, 70 HP This means 18 damage per attack. Additionally they have reinforced but also 20% fire weakness though.

    Regarding racial units: Griffin Riders have 15 physical; thus 10 in this case. Still not a extremely powerful option.

    Of note here: Exalted aren’t the field choice. I’d give that to crusaders. Exalted will come in because you’re scrambling harrassing stacks to aid in your battles, not as a main punch force. Also, you can assume at least 1 Shrine per 2 Juggernauts as fire support(and that’s being generous in favor of the Dread), so you’re hardly alone. An Exalted’s duty here is to tie them up until the Crusaders arrive.

    (EDIT: Exalted is also good to kill a Dread’s supportive army. If he wants his cannons/juggers to shoot every turn, he’s gonna need engineers. Those are gonna die very fast to Exalted. This’ll effectively half the shooter efficiency, making it much easier for your other troops to close the distance.)

    And if I’d have access to Gryphons, I might have them replace Exalted altogether if it’s a straight up fight I’m expecting.

    Did you say power of the word? cause you’re wrong. You don’t want to use that on an enemy that has better ranged capabilities than you do, unless you’ve already tied him down in melee. And even then the use is questionable.

    I actually would prefer if Shrines would get Immobilized (against machines) instead of Haywire. Immobilized is definitely useful against ranged machines because otherwise they just move away from a melee unit and attack again. The opportunity attack is not very impressive against Juggernauts and a Exalted is dead after two Cannon Shots.

    Hence if Theocrat gets an ability to immobilize machines I don’t think further balance would be needed.

    Maybe it would work for machines, but that’d need a new ability, where I think Haywire could suffice. Immobilize vs anything else would be OP. Haywire is nice since it has a decent chance to get there, and adds nice rewards if it procs agaisnt the Dread, allowing you to go completely ham on the stunned machines, while also breaking the barrage of ranged attacks.

    Jolly Joker wrote:
    The problem is that SMITING Bolts can’t have shock damage.
    I don’t get this strange logic. Smite from the heavens could have shock aspect, right? Why Divine Vengeance can, but Smiting bolts can’t?

    because it’d wreck balance. The Divine vengeance is once per battle, putting it into an entire different kind of ability. And if you’re looking at what the Dev’s said it was based upon, shock on the AoE can be rationalized, but on the Ranged attack? I rather doubt it.

    And still Zaskow proved unable to provide any numbers to support his claim of OP. Is it that hard to find numerical evidence supporting your claim? Makes me think it doesn’t exist.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by  President.
    #214010

    The Mentat
    Member

    Exalted aren’t the field choice. I’d give that to crusaders. Exalted will come in because you’re scrambling harrassing stacks to aid in your battles, not as a main punch force. Also, you can assume at least 1 Shrine per 2 Juggernauts as fire support(and that’s being generous in favor of the Dread), so you’re hardly alone. An Exalted’s duty here is to tie them up until the Crusaders arrive.

    What’s the advantage of Crusaders? Their stats don’t make much difference against one shot abilities:

    Crusader: 50 HP, 12 Def, 10 Res, 12 damage
    Exalted: 55 HP, 11 Def. 12 Res, 13 damage

    I usually only use Exalted in lategame because of resurgence and higher mobility. Additionally I have around 1 Shrine per stack. But for a T4 unit 30 fire damage in short range is also quite poor. A Shadow Stalker is T3 and would at least deal 48 damage with three attacks against Juggernauts.

    Exalted is also good to kill a Dread’s supportive army.

    The AI doesn’t use many Engineers in lategame. In my last game against Dreadnougts it looked like this at turn 79.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by  President.
    #214016

    Zaskow
    Member

    And still Zaskow proved unable to provide any numbers to support his claim of OP. Is it that hard to find numerical evidence supporting your claim? Makes me think it doesn’t exist.

    I provided enough numbers and proofs about Theo

    Do you even play the game? Apparently not.

    Did you even try to watch replays of Ai combat? Apparently not, because you would know that AI choosing targets for healing isn’t very clever and it just waste healing sometimes or risk the healer too much.

    this is so stupid I’m not even going to answer it. I suggest you find a decent Theocrat somewhere and play Dread against him.

    Also I suggest you to watch how decent Dread plays against Theo.

    T2 cavalry can be 1-turned by a Theocrat without that much of an issue – human cavalry costs only 90 gold.

    So? Dread can do this much easily and cheaply.

    And still Zaskow proved unable to provide any numbers to support his claim of OP. Is it that hard to find numerical evidence supporting your claim? Makes me think it doesn’t exist.

    I provided enough math on first pages about effectiveness some spells against Golems. About compensation of Mark of Heretic losess of spirit damage. Try to open your eyes.

    #214024

    I provided enough numbers and proofs about Theo

    Where?

    In any case, you lost the last shreds of respect I might have had for you when you accused me of not reading the very proposal I authored.

    I provided enough math on first pages about effectiveness some spells against Golems. About compensation of Mark of Heretic losess of spirit damage. Try to open your eyes.

    I just checked the first five pages and all I saw you talk about was fighting Cherubs.

    Zaskow you are wasting everyone’s time here.

    #214025

    So? Dread can do this much easily and cheaply.

    At which point the Theocrat gains the upper hand, fighting a living army.

    You are flip flopping like a broken pair of sandals here.

    First you claim that the Theocrat is dependent on spirit damage, and when it’s shown it isn’t you then loudly claim that it is (without posting any numbers, or any logic).

    Then when it’s pointed out that Cavalry (which can swarm Cannons, thus leaving the Crusaders to tie up the Golems) are cheap for the Theocrat, you then say that they are cheaper for the Dread, but hold on a minute, I thought the problem was machines?

    #214033

    Gloweye
    Member

    And still Zaskow proved unable to provide any numbers to support his claim of OP. Is it that hard to find numerical evidence supporting your claim? Makes me think it doesn’t exist.

    I provided enough numbers and proofs about Theo

    You did? let me have a look….

    First page numbers by Zaskow:

    Exalted is a piece of crap, really, but Shrines with massed devout support are incredible thing (getting 70 pts of damage in sum from one salvo isn’t problem).
    In case of Dread Theo suffers.

    I can choose Necro/Rogue/Druid/etc and any random specs and have 0 problems against Dread.

    Second page numbers by Zaskow:

    (Regarding Cadavers)

    For free creating and 2 mana/turn this is good deal.

    Third Page numbers by Zaskow:
    none.

    Fourth Page numbers by Zaskow:

    Adding fire channel is a good solution, but doesn’t help Theo vs. machines much if you add just 1-2 fire damage for each theo units.

    Blind checks against Physical, seems thematic, and shuts down the main issue Theocrats have (huge AoE attacks coming from Machines which the Theocrat struggles to stop).

    It works. It would be useful against cannons and juggers firstly. Flame tank and golem can attack even being blinded. Also most machines have a lot of def. Chance to blind jugger AFAIK around 15%.
    However, blinding strike is very useful thing against many types of targets, because flanking against them becomes much easier. Read here more info.
    I rejected this idea in my old thread, because I was not sure, that all blind in game works as Rogue’s Blind.

    Ok, just played Theo vs. Theo match. Problem of utilizing spirit damage is true.
    Tried to use Mark heretic massively and you know what? It DOESN’T matter really, because +3 physical is too low.
    I had interesting battle. 2 my cherubs against 2 enemy cherubs. Enemy casted Mark of Heretic on my army. My army won.
    In reality +3 damage transform into +1 damage at best.

    I suggest to change Heretics mechanics from +3 physical to +1 fire, +1 shock, +1 physical. Multichannel could makes this spell more powerful.

    I have yet to see the first relevant number here, unless you count theory crafting or the very arbitrary scout battle that could depend on +/-25 other factors you didn’t mention, like which player got the first strike and which player had CP for spell support.

    Therefore, I’m counting this statement (“I provided enough numbers and proofs about Theo “) as a straight up lie.

    Do you even play the game? Apparently not.

    Did you even try to watch replays of Ai combat? Apparently not, because you would know that AI choosing targets for healing isn’t very clever and it just waste healing sometimes or risk the healer too much.

    Yeah, well, actually I do. I also play against AI in combat, and while not always smart (I.E., healing when damaging would have been better), it’s generally not stupid enough for it to matter in this case. Smart enough for Evolving units. There’s enough people out there who evolve martyrs when they play Theo, and I believe Prodigal even had something like a 60% success rate of evolving an entire stack of martyrs with autocombat, without losses. Around turn 15, and with Hafling/Orc Scoundrels, I believe. Now I don’t remember whether that was live, and if it wasn’t if there was anything that got changed. I do remember that is wasn’t PvP, but depending on settings you can pull that off before any meaningful interference can happen.

    this is so stupid I’m not even going to answer it. I suggest you find a decent Theocrat somewhere and play Dread against him.

    Also I suggest you to watch how decent Dread plays against Theo.

    T2 cavalry can be 1-turned by a Theocrat without that much of an issue – human cavalry costs only 90 gold.

    So? Dread can do this much easily and cheaply.

    I don’t know about the state of your memory(questionable, judging by the way you mindlessly repeat your arguments), but I already explained why this is stupid for the Dread to do.

    So let’s say Dread builds racials. In that case, he doesn’t use the advantages you’re claiming are so OP the theocrat is helpless. If you are right with your claim of unbalance, this Dread is stupid and doesn’t exist in games where skill actually matters.

    So, if you’re correct on your balance claim, then either all Dreads are brainless idiots or you just made a very stupid remark that, while factually correct, has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Pick your choice.

    Which you have yet to respond to. Was this a stupid remark from you(again), or are all Dreads stupid players?

    And still Zaskow proved unable to provide any numbers to support his claim of OP. Is it that hard to find numerical evidence supporting your claim? Makes me think it doesn’t exist.

    I provided enough math on first pages about effectiveness some spells against Golems. About compensation of Mark of Heretic losess of spirit damage. Try to open your eyes.

    You quoting this twice already makes me wonder…

    anyway, I’ve calculated the loss of damage due to it being spirit channel(28%), and I’ve made the argument that the Theocrat can compensate for that with 1) Higher mobility and 2) Racial units, of which you have denied 1 (without arguments, and therefore not convincingly) and regarding to 2) you have claimed that Dread can throw away his (according to you) largest advantage. I believe neither of these are convincing to anyone in this thread.

    Should you prove unable to make sensible arguments to support your claim, I’m just going to ignore you so that I can have a constructive discussion with people who do, like The Mentat.

    Exalted aren’t the field choice. I’d give that to crusaders. Exalted will come in because you’re scrambling harrassing stacks to aid in your battles, not as a main punch force. Also, you can assume at least 1 Shrine per 2 Juggernauts as fire support(and that’s being generous in favor of the Dread), so you’re hardly alone. An Exalted’s duty here is to tie them up until the Crusaders arrive.

    What’s the advantage of Crusaders? Their stats don’t make much difference against one shot abilities:

    Crusader: 50 HP, 12 Def, 10 Res, 12 damage
    Exalted: 55 HP, 11 Def. 12 Res, 13 damage

    IHMO, being much cheaper than Exalted to build(especially in cost/damage), and having defender and shield actually amounts to some amount of damage mitigation, for what it’s worth. Mostly, advance under Exalted cover to have some cheaper swords partake in the tedious chipping away of machine HP.

    I usually only use Exalted in lategame because of resurgence and higher mobility. Additionally I have around 1 Shrine per stack. But for a T4 unit 30 fire damage in short range is also quite poor. A Shadow Stalker is T3 and would at least deal 48 damage with three attacks against Juggernauts.

    yeah well, gotta do with the tools you got. Personally my Theocrat games are either orcs or dwarves, and both of these get nice T3 infantry to use against the Dread. Specs can also be a great help. And TBH, to complete the rock-paper-scissors, the Shrine would totally wreck the Stalkers.

    Exalted is also good to kill a Dread’s supportive army.

    The AI doesn’t use many Engineers in lategame. In my last game against Dreadnougts it looked like this at turn 79.

    AI’s got the money to just build a second Juggernaut instead of an Engineer. And TBH I think the SP issues are lesser in this case – while it might be a kind of grind to take a Dread down with Theo, you’ve got the time and flexibility to do it a number of ways – exalted harrassing still works fine(bonus points if you got scorched earth), and you can build a couple of Shrine+5 stacks, preferably with Crusaders/Exalted. Attack with a couple together, and the Shrines will benefit even more.

    On a general note, I could support Haywire on Shrines. IMO it fits the lore, and I think it won’t kill balance.

    #214036

    Zaskow
    Member

    In any case, you lost the last shreds of respect I might have had for you when you accused me of not reading the very proposal I authored.

    I don’t need your respect after your posting how Keeper of Light is helpful against Dread.

    Zaskow you are wasting everyone’s time here.

    Ha, do you know that siting on internet forums is wasting time? Especially here. Posting here is almost senseless, because devs ended with AoW3 and nothing will change. Same thing will happen with Exnihil’s thread.

    I just checked the first five pages and all I saw you talk about was fighting Cherubs.

    It’s difficult to find, but I showed using calculations that Rot isn’t so effective against machines as Bouh tried to prove.

    Also I showed how much dmg Theo loses when fighting machines.

    Then when it’s pointed out that Cavalry (which can swarm Cannons, thus leaving the Crusaders to tie up the Golems) are cheap for the Theocrat, you then say that they are cheaper for the Dread, but hold on a minute, I thought the problem was machines?

    This was answer on your failed arguments when you tried to prove that Theo could swarm Dread by racial troops.

    #214038

    Gloweye
    Member

    BLOODYBATTLEBRAIN wrote:
    I just checked the first five pages and all I saw you talk about was fighting Cherubs.
    It’s difficult to find, but I showed using calculations that Rot isn’t so effective against machines as Bouh tried to prove.

    Wow, one calculation in 40 pages. Hurray. If it even exists.

    Also I showed how much dmg Theo loses when fighting machines.

    No, I did. And I also gave a reason why it isn’t such a decisive advantage as you seem to think.

    Ha, do you know that siting on internet forums is wasting time? Especially here.

    Well, don’t let us waste your. There’s the door, happy ever after!

    #214051

    Dr_K
    Member

    Zaskow wrote:

    I provided enough math on first pages about effectiveness some spells against Golems. About compensation of Mark of Heretic losess of spirit damage. Try to open your eyes.

    I just checked the first five pages and all I saw you talk about was fighting Cherubs.

    In case anyone actually cares about the Mark of the Heretic effectiveness, here’s the math that was missing. If you don’t care, ignore this post and continue whatever you were arguing or not arguing about.

    —-

    Zaskow claims in an earlier exchange with Fen that the +3 heretic bonus is really only effectively +1. So when is the bonus actually +1?

    Let d and hd be the average damage of the stock unit and the stock unit with mark of the heretic being effective, respectively.

    d = 10 + (str – def)
    hd = 10 + ((str + 3) – def)

    One way to look at the +1 is to see when hd minus the actual damage (ad) is 1. hd – ad = 1.

    Thus, consider the case when d = 2. If d = 2, then it’s clear that hd = 5. So we only need to worry about the cases when d <= 1, since 1 is the lowest possible a damaging attack can be. The only time that d and hd will differ by something less than 3 but greater than 0 is when we are considering d values less than 0.

    hd – ad = 1 only when d = -1, since the difference can only be 1 when hd = 2. If hd = 3, then d = 0 -> ad = 1. Which is a difference of 2.

    So the only case when the addition of the heretic physical damage yields an average of +1 is when def = 10 + str – 1 = 9 + str.

    So the defending unit needs to have an effective defense of the attacker’s strength +9 to yield precisely a +1 difference between the average damages. And when considering the +- 20% gives a range of 1-3 for hd and 1 for ad (assuming the range is calculated simultaneously and not after ad, otherwise it is 1-2).

    Therefore, we only have a single case where the effective buff on the average damage is going to be +1. Another single for +2. Numerous cases for both +0 and +3, but the +0 case requires that def >= str + 13.

    —-

    Now let’s consider the ranges of damage

    .8*(10 + str – def) — 1.2*(10 + str – def)
    .8*(13 + str – def) — 1.2*(13 + str – def)

    Which yields

    8 + .8(str – def) — 12 + 1.2(str – def)
    10.4 + .8(str – def) — 15.6 + 1.2(str – def)

    For all cases where str – def (we’ll call diff), is >= -4, the damage ranges will overlap, but the maxs differ by ~4 and the mins differ by ~3 (rounding up difference of constants). Obviously, from here there is room to argue that the +3 bonus yields diminishing returns since the overlap increases as diff increases. It takes a while for this to actually be a problem, and at that point diff is beyond the standard strength and defense of units in-game.

    It is also worth noting that the Theocrat does not have access to exceptionally hard hitting physical damage units where these diminishing returns will happen when pitted against higher def units. Also analyzing the bonus as diff gets large requires probability that I do not feel like doing and would not be relevant to the discussion (if it can still be called such) at hand.

    Once diff < -4, the range of the damage of the buffed unit is disjoint from that of the standard unit. The unbuffed unit collapses it’s range when diff <= -10.

    And at diff = -5, the ranges are thus

    Unbuffed
    4 — 6

    Buffed
    7 — 10

    And these are the actual values of a recruit crusader attacking a defending recruit golem. Most of the high def Dreadnought units when defending against Theocrat class units fall around this diff value. Here we have an “effective +1 damage” if the unbuffed crusader hits well, and the buffed one hits poorly.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by  President.
    #214053

    Ericridge
    Member

    Rot is effective, there is no denying it.

    http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/theo-vs-dread/page/2/#post-212774

    It forces golem to stay in hiding in defensive stance when it could be attacking freely.

    #214101

    Zaskow
    Member

    No, I did. And I also gave a reason why it isn’t such a decisive advantage as you seem to think.

    http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/theocrat-endgame/#post-213804 or page 39, because forums works terrible.

    Rot is effective, there is no denying it.

    You need to cast it 3 times to kill 4 T2 units without defense stance in ideal case. I don’t think that’s decent results for spell costs 20 CP. Also it was discussed that weakening debuff is almost useless for Theo, but Rogue could give some advantages with goblins.

    #214106

    Gloweye
    Member

    No, I did. And I also gave a reason why it isn’t such a decisive advantage as you seem to think.

    http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/theocrat-endgame/#post-213804 or page 39, because forums works terrible.

    Hey, actually a number in there. Still, that doesn’t do anything to invalidate my counterarguments….

    #214107

    Bouh
    Member

    Most theocrat units become pieces of crap against spirit immune targets. Is it too difficult to see? Only martyrs and crusader inflict maximum damage.

    This is wrong.

    What is true though is that most dreadnought machines become pieces of crap when wind ward is cast.

    These “options” don’t win battles for you. Just wasting CP or time.

    Magic does win battles for you. This is AoW3. Not Rome total war. If you don’t know to use magic properly, that is another problem, but not a balance problem.

    Do you know that Golems have Reinforced trait? Trebs have limited effectiveness against golems.

    Renforced doesn’t immune the golem to trebuchet. -4 damage is nice, butt the golem will still die at the end.

    Is thi enough evidence?

    It is not evidence. It is copying the wiki. We know how to read it, thank you.

    Yes that’s right, in range. Divine vengeance has 4 hex reach, which means shrine is going to get hit before it gets into range and ranged dreadnought machines can also resort to kiting. Made worse since Shrine has a FIRE weakness, it’s vulnerable to flame tanks but also mortar bombardments.

    Divine vengeance is the most powerful ability in the game. It allows 2 shrines to anihilate any dreadnought army.

    -Divine vengeance is once per battle.
    -Divine vengeance has 4 hex reach.

    This is the most powerful ability in the game. Two of them will kill any dreadnought army, leaving only metal scraps to reprocess.

    Cavalry evolving isn’t guaranteed when you use autocombat massively. Also Dread has an advantage in producing armored T3s, because Solid Engineering (buff) and Great Blacksmith (discount).

    You don’t play theocrat well do you ? Theocrat has no problem evolving any unit. And if dread use non machine units, this thread becomes irrelevant, because living units don’t have spirit immunity.

    When it’s possible, blunderbuss is devastating attack.

    Engineer dies to one smite.

    Do Crusaders have demolisher*2? At least goblin has demolisher*1.

    crusaders have mark heretic buff, almost a demolisher*1.

    Why then flame tanks have ram? They can’t be disengaged.

    They can be disengaged. They have ram because they would useless against fire immune units. And by useless I mean totaly useless, not doing “only” 80% of their damage.

    Using healing in AI autocombats? Sure…

    AI does use healing in AC, a lot. Is she better than you ?

    I provided enough numbers and proofs about Theo

    You didn’t.

    It’s difficult to find, but I showed using calculations that Rot isn’t so effective against machines as Bouh tried to prove.

    You ignored half of what rot do. And show the worst possible way to use it. That’s not a demonstration.

    #214112

    Zaskow
    Member

    Hey, actually a number in there. Still, that doesn’t do anything to invalidate my counterarguments….

    Actually I suggest you to play a game. I can do math too, but reality in game differs from numbers here. If you don’t understand this I can’t see a sense to discuss with you and other anything.

    #214146

    ExNihil
    Member

    Just a quick question- I recall a limit of 10 devout units on the battlefield to the bonus of shrines, that is, a maximum of +20 fire / +20 spirit. Is this (still) the case? Or is it possible for shrines to receive a bonus from all devout units on the battlefield, which in a scenario where there is a single shrine and 23 other devout units (four stacks attacking), will give the shrine +46 fire / +46 spirit on its ranged attack?

    #214149

    Nobidexx
    Member

    I think I recall seeing AI shrines with 50 fire 50 spirit, so I don’t think there’s a limit.

    #214151

    ExNihil
    Member

    I have asked around the MP community and the best answer I got was from Gab who insisted he tried it out and there was a 10 devout limit, which will give the unit the ability to damage some enemies in about 100 points given weaknesses and so forth. I am though not certain ATM and need the exact figures for some calculations.

    #214158

    Dr_K
    Member

    Just a quick question- I recall a limit of 10 devout units on the battlefield to the bonus of shrines, that is, a maximum of +20 fire / +20 spirit. Is this (still) the case? Or is it possible for shrines to receive a bonus from all devout units on the battlefield, which in a scenario where there is a single shrine and 23 other devout units (four stacks attacking), will give the shrine +46 fire / +46 spirit on its ranged attack?

    I don’t remember it ever being the case where it was capped actually. Unless it was that way at release for a short while.

    And unless it got silently capped in a patch in the newest beta patch, there is no limit (besides unit limits) to the bonus.

    It’s pretty easy to 1-shot up to some T3 units that get within full damage range of the shrine. With Seeker, it’s even more fun because you can pick them off beyond city walls.

    #214164

    ExNihil
    Member

    ty!

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