Theocrat endgame

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This topic contains 1,253 replies, has 52 voices, and was last updated by  Ericridge 7 years, 5 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1,201 through 1,230 (of 1,254 total)
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  • #214213

    Smaug3
    Member

    Brief thing I need to bring up. We cannot change the damage channels on shrine to 7/7/7. Why? Because of the way the attack functions. It currently gains +2/+2 for each devout unit in the stack. If it were to be changed, it would require massive retooling of the attack, something that certainly isn’t worth it. I don’t care how unbalanced the matchup is, it’s not worth it. We would have to make it +1/+1/+1 for each devout unit, which is a definite nerf to the theocrat, something I’m sure would just make people more angry regardless of what side you sit on, or it would have to become +2/+2/+2, which is completely broken. You’d be getting a 17/17/17 damage attack for five other devout units: need I say that this would be OP? Either way, changing the damage channels to fire/shock/spirit is certainly not a good idea for the amount of balancing that would be required.

    #214214

    Zaskow
    Member

    Renforced doesn’t immune the golem to trebuchet. -4 damage is nice, butt the golem will still die at the end.

    *facepalm*

    Could you not fail so much?
    Damage of treb vs. Golems = 10 + (20 – (14+4 (from reinforced))) = 12 dmg. Very devastative damage, lol. It’s more profitable to use support…

    It is not evidence. It is copying the wiki. We know how to read it, thank you.

    It seem you don’t…

    Divine vengeance is the most powerful ability in the game. It allows 2 shrines to anihilate any dreadnought army.

    Hah, most ridiculous silliness I’ve heard here. Try to use Shrine in such way against decent enemy. You’ll lost all shrines soon.

    You don’t play theocrat well do you ? Theocrat has no problem evolving any unit. And if dread use non machine units, this thread becomes irrelevant, because living units don’t have spirit immunity.

    Try to play typical MP with autocombats. You’ll be surprised how often units die, regardless class, even on elite.

    You ignored half of what rot do. And show the worst possible way to use it. That’s not a demonstration.

    Do you try to repeat how greatly Rot damages and debuffs machines? Plz, leave us from such silliness.

    #214232

    quo
    Member

    Divine vengeance is the most powerful ability in the game. It allows 2 shrines to anihilate any dreadnought army.

    Ask me why I’m positive you haven’t tried this in real life. 😀

    #214233

    Ericridge
    Member

    You need to cast it 3 times to kill 4 T2 units without defense stance in ideal case. I don’t think that’s decent results for spell costs 20 CP. Also it was discussed that weakening debuff is almost useless for Theo, but Rogue could give some advantages with goblins.

    In other words, you will not accept any spell that doesn’t oneshot golems. Because only disintegrate is capable of doing that.

    #214237

    quo
    Member

    This isn’t in response to anyone in particular, I just feel like the screenshot needs to be here, because there are posts talking about trotting a Machine out to fight a Dreadnought:

    A Dread could probably kill a Shrine with a four stack of Halfling Adventurers.

    #214256

    Fenraellis
    Member

    A Dread could probably kill a Shrine with a four stack of Halfling Adventurers.

    True, but how those Adventurers would manage to even reach the Shrine alive to do enough to kill it is beyond me, though…

    #214258

    ExNihil
    Member

    There has been some speculation in this thread regarding Shrines that zoom in and use divine vengeance, it would appear some players use them as flying assault squads.

    A question- I have read here and in the other thread both @bouh and @BBB asserting that Shrines can be linked to martyrs (multiple martyrs) using Absorb pain. Since this sounds like an extremely efficient strategy that will really allow the above mentioned assault squad tactic – which I peculiarly have never seen used – I set about to check the wiki. Is there a mistake in the Wiki? It states that Absorb pain cannot be used on machines, and that a unit cannot be linked to more then one other unit that absorbs its damage:

    http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Absorb_Pain

    #214261

    quo
    Member

    True, but how those Adventurers would manage to even reach the Shrine alive to do enough to kill it is beyond me, though…

    A few might die, but it only takes 4 swings of Sabotage to destroy a Shrine. I mean I guess the Theo could cast Power of the Word to Freeze them, but then:
    – Sabotaging Irregulars are hardly the least of the problems in a real largescale war,
    and
    – You are seriously in such a bad position that you are invoking high scale powers to keep a bunch trash T1 units picked for this example purely due to their ineptness, from killing your T4

    The Adventurers are just cheap terror units you can field basically cost free out of whatever backwater hamlet you happen to have recently stumbled into. They could be Initiates or Prospectors or whatever, just enough to put pressure on the Theo to deal with mites while you blast them into next weekend with real Machinery.

    Now, if you decide to get real mean and want to see the Theocrat actually cry? Make it Sphinxes.

    #214268

    Ericridge
    Member

    Structural insight I”ve used it to great effect one during golden realms.

    I was already fighting against two dreadnoughts then a third dreadnought found me while exploring and dow’d on me because I was the first person he found.

    That opened up third front so I just went screw it and ordered every single civic guard + orc spearmen garrison combined with my brand new civic guards/orc spearmen horde which i have been building up for 12+ turns and sent every single irregular down the third dreadnought’s way.

    It was the russian’s human wave tactics. Alotta dies but you’ll get through cuz you have so many and kill them. Third dreadnought ran out of machines before I ran out of fresh bodies with tnts strapped on them. That third dreadnought suffered a lategame humiliating defeat at hands of my irregulars. That allowed me to keep the bulk of my force fighting against two other dreadnoughts without weakening my defences too much.

    I should mention that I take explorer specialization with my dreadnought.
    And for those orc spearmen in my empire?

    Explorer Specialization + Sprint + orc spearmen = hey I’m in melee range after one turn. 🙂 And plus by having sabotage on every single unit of your attack force = siege battles is no problem.

    And this isn’t even mentioning haste spell >.> And I fought without the benefit of air mastery.

    #214277

    Buczer
    Member

    Maybe instead of repeating in 1358645565465 pages the same opinion how the other side is incompetent, just play grudge match on MP. F.e. Zaskow goes Dread, and any guy who’s thinking matchup is fine goes Theocrat. Losing side will leave discusion.
    Becouse writing again and again “competent player will…”, “that works only if…” or “try that on MP” will prove nothing.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by  President.
    #214286

    ephafn
    Member

    Maybe instead of repeating in 1358645565465 pages the same opinion how the other side is incompetent, just play grudge match on MP. F.e. Zaskow goes Dread, and any guy who’s thinking matchup is fine goes Theocrat. Losing side will leave discusion.

    The problem with this suggestion is that the claimed balance problem is a late-game one. So the result of such a grudge match would likely be decided in the early- or mid-game, which would make the results meaningless for the discussion.

    #214289

    Buczer
    Member

    The problem with this suggestion is that the claimed balance problem is a late-game one. So the result of such a grudge match would likely be decided in the early- or mid-game, which would make the results meaningless for the discussion.

    It doesnt have to be conclusive to the discusion at all. But it will finally end “you are noob” argument from one side.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by  President.
    #214294

    Bouh
    Member

    Losing side will leave discusion.

    As if this would prove anything about the balance…

    For irregulars, they will be hard countered by a stack of exalted. They will never reach a shrine.

    @exnihil : I don’t remember if absorb pain work on machines or not, and you can’t have more than one unit absorbing pain on another. But it doesn’t matter. Even if you need to sacrifice the shrines, two shrines will annihilate almost any dreadnought army. Divine vengeance is 38 base damage against dreadnought units, and floating means you will have a rather easy time rushing in the middle of the clustered dreadnought army to unleash it. Only juggernoughts will survive two such blasts, but heavily damage and only one shrine will suffer from it. Then your exalted or racial flyers or cavalry can easily finish the work. Even if you sacrifice the shrines it’s definitely worth it.

    You can answer of course that the dreadnought can spread his army, but I don’t think this is the formation the dreadnought machines prefer to be in.

    #214300

    Buczer
    Member

    Losing side will leave discusion.

    As if this would prove anything about the balance…

    It will prove that either your “use your f***g brain” argument, or Zaskow’s “play MP and go back” will became relevant. At last the winning side will prove that understands the game enough to win against the second side. it wont even mean the second side is bad ofc.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by  President.
    #214314

    Bouh
    Member

    it wont even mean the second side is bad ofc.

    Indeed, so that would serve absolutely nothing.

    #214319

    Prodigal Sun
    Member

    Absorb Pain does not work on Shrines and I guess it was removed cause of balance. Nor is there a cap to damage.

    Only problem I have with the Shrine is only concerning Arch Druid, not so much Dread. You better bring a few units with dispel or Rust Strike will make Divine Vengeance useless. (Actually, I don’t even know if dispelling Rust Strike works, so anyone who knows may enlighten me). My Exalted/Shrine stacks do not like Arch Druids a single bit…

    #214323

    Zaskow
    Member

    Actually, I don’t even know if dispelling Rust Strike works, so anyone who knows may enlighten me

    Deteriorated status stays always and can’t be dispelled. I asked devs a long ago.

    Only problem I have with the Shrine is only concerning Arch Druid, not so much Dread.

    At least Shrine has compensation from Devout escort, losses of dmg for Dread machines are much heavier.
    Similar effect for Rot would be more appreciated, than Weakening.

    #214330

    Bouh
    Member

    Similar effect for Rot would be more appreciated, than Weakening.

    I know you would rather see averything to be the same for balance reasons…

    #214332

    Zaskow
    Member

    I know you would rather see averything to be the same for balance reasons…

    Goblin doctors have weakening too. Whoa, so much sameness everywhere.
    I’d buy such spell with massed deteriorating even if it has higher price and doesn’t inflict any damage.

    #214337

    Prodigal Sun
    Member

    Yes but you may not bring as many machines as a Dread, and the Shrine relying on multiple channels with less damage will be an even better target for Rust Strike. Divine Vengeance is barely a threat when RS applies.

    #214342

    Zaskow
    Member

    Yes but you may not bring as many machines as a Dread, and the Shrine relying on multiple channels with less damage will be an even better target for Rust Strike. Divine Vengeance is barely a threat when RS applies.

    Agreed, 3-4 shrines only for really great boost in 3 stacks army.

    #214445

    CrazyElf
    Member

    True, but how those Adventurers would manage to even reach the Shrine alive to do enough to kill it is beyond me, though…

    A few might die, but it only takes 4 swings of Sabotage to destroy a Shrine. I mean I guess the Theo could cast Power of the Word to Freeze them, but then:
    – Sabotaging Irregulars are hardly the least of the problems in a real largescale war,
    and
    – You are seriously in such a bad position that you are invoking high scale powers to keep a bunch trash T1 units picked for this example purely due to their ineptness, from killing your T4

    The Adventurers are just cheap terror units you can field basically cost free out of whatever backwater hamlet you happen to have recently stumbled into. They could be Initiates or Prospectors or whatever, just enough to put pressure on the Theo to deal with mites while you blast them into next weekend with real Machinery.

    Now, if you decide to get real mean and want to see the Theocrat actually cry? Make it Sphinxes.

    If they get into melee range, the Shrine can cast Divine Vengeance.

    The other is that these low end units don’t benefit from the other buffs that Dreadnoughts have like machine buffs. They are also unlike machines, very vulnerable to spirit. It’d be hard to get them into position.

    #214460

    quo
    Member

    If they get into melee range, the Shrine can cast Divine Vengeance.

    Divine Vengeance is only 30 points of damage against most Irregulars and less than that on a few of them. Even so, hitting more than 3 targets with Divine Vengeance is usually not possible unless the Dread feels like handing you victory. If even one of those Irregular units survives DV and has enough MP to hit you several times, your shrine is scrap metal.

    #214501

    Bouh
    Member

    Quo, please, don’t show irregulars as a hard counter to the theocrat, you know that is stupid. Sabotage on irregulars wont make shrine nor exalted disappear.

    #214517

    ExNihil
    Member

    This depends on the type of battle. Wall defense Shrine has no problem with sabotage, in an open field irregulars can do horrific damage to it. Some have sprint or extra MP and sabotage can trigger up to three times. It takes between 1 to 4 irregulars, depending on number of attacks and rolls to destroy a baseline Shrine within a single round, or between 2 and 5 irregulars to destroy a gold medal shrine within a single round. Also Golems have demolisher, and can do very high damage to shrines at melee range. I will post numbers later on.

    #214532

    Zaskow
    Member

    Sabotage on irregulars wont make shrine nor exalted disappear.

    Irregulars with Structural Insight upgrade are dangerous for machines. Shrine is machine.
    One Sabotage attack from irregular:
    Phys.=10+(15-14)=11 dmg.
    Fire=10+(15-12)*1.2=15.6=16 dmg.

    In sum we have 11+16=27 dmg from one salvo. I think this is a lot.

    #214537

    Bouh
    Member

    You know a shrine will not be alone… And dreadnought was supposed to stand in defense, leaving canons and stuff shoot.

    Is the dreadnought on the offensive now ?

    #214549

    Dr_K
    Member

    Divine Vengeance is only 30 points of damage against most Irregulars and less than that on a few of them.

    Not quite right. 32, 34, and 36 are not the same as 30 average damage. No racial irregular has resistance of 10 to even out the calculation. And based on their resistances only, there is no guarantee that any will be able to survive. The Sphinx is the only exception to this.

    Of, the T1 irregulars that do have elemental resistances, the High Elf initiate is the only one that can be guaranteed to survive Divine Vengeance (no crits). And in the worst case scenario (still no crits) it will be left with about 3 HP left. The hatchling will likely survive as the maximum damage against it is 33, but it will likely be in the same boat as the Initiate.

    And this is completely ignoring any other factors that likely are usually in play.

    #214554

    ExNihil
    Member

    but, there is one decisive factor – if there are dread army leader perks then they will have 40% fire/shock resistance, if not they will likely die. Ofc the question is how you time the attack and so forth. For instance, if a shrine comes in and uses his divine vengeance vs. some machines, it will be exposed to irregulars if present. Also, if the Shrine enters medium-close range, it will become vulnerable. If the irregulars storm the shrine and exhaust most of their action points, they will die quickly to divine vengeance – probably. Finally, there is always the possibility that the shrine will also damage/kill friendly units.

    Divine vengeance is not a primary attack – it is an attack of last resort that might, with the right circumstances, be used as a primary attack.

    #214555

    Dr_K
    Member

    Finally, there is always the possibility that the shrine will also damage/kill friendly units.

    Highly unlikely. Devout (and blinded) units are immune to Divine Vengeance, and accompanying a shrine with lots of non-Devout units is just poor play on the Theocrat’s part. Injuring friendly units with Divine Vengeance is still possible, but usually it is either a gamble to try to finish the enemy off and lick the few wounds later or just poor tactics.

    Edit: If the damaged friendly unit can complete its actions after the AoE attack, the damage can be mitigated by putting it in guard mode, using the AoE attack, and then moving the damaged unit to complete its turn. It’s quite useful after having screwed up placement of Heroes a few times.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by  President.
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