Theocrat endgame

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This topic contains 1,253 replies, has 52 voices, and was last updated by  Ericridge 7 years ago.

Viewing 24 posts - 1,231 through 1,254 (of 1,254 total)
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  • #214561

    ExNihil
    Member

    Shrines are not devout, so they incur full damage +20% fire damage, also – if the army includes units purchased from inns or converted, such as various t3 units, as well as units produced or received from dwellings, they are not immune. In the current meta-game this is actually very much likely.

    #214569

    quo
    Member

    Irregulars with Structural Insight upgrade are dangerous for machines. Shrine is machine.
    One Sabotage attack from irregular:
    Phys.=10+(15-14)=11 dmg.
    Fire=10+(15-12)*1.2=15.6=16 dmg.

    In sum we have 11+16=27 dmg from one salvo. I think this is a lot.

    Right. So if you screw up and an Irregular gets close to one of your Machines while it still has Green or Yellow MP it will deal:

    Green: 27×3 = 81 damage
    Yellow: 27×2 = 54 damage

    It is one of the hardest hitting attacks in the game.

    Quo, please, don’t show irregulars as a hard counter to the theocrat, you know that is stupid. Sabotage on irregulars wont make shrine nor exalted disappear.

    “Hard counter” is your term. “Substantial threat” is more like what I’d call it. Anyone with experience with Machines has lost them to this ability. It’s terrifying. And the point is not that the Irregulars win every single time. It’s that they can come from any halfbaked town anywhere on the map. That is how I swarm people. Big towns making big Machinery and backwaters pumping out cheap units to serve as canonfodder. If the cheapos die, so what? They punch WAY higher than their tier and you forced the enemy to deal with them.

    Seriously if people learn one lesson from this set of threads, let it be to never underestimate Sabotage. Also, Sphinxes with Sabotage should be run from, screaming, and cursing the day you were born.

    BTW, Engineers are Irregulars and with Great Mobilization, which comes at the late game, have 36 MP… Enjoy that fight.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by  President.
    #214572

    Ericridge
    Member

    Shrines are not devout, so they incur full damage +20% fire damage, also – if the army includes units purchased from inns or converted, such as various t3 units, as well as units produced or received from dwellings, they are not immune. In the current meta-game this is actually very much likely.

    Shrines don’t hit themselves with divine vengeance. Only others can.

    But I have found myself willing to torch my own golems if it means a perfect flame breaths in a row. Shrines is likely in same place too.

    Also, devout being granted to infantry/cavalry now applies to units that you recruited before you unlocked the empire upgrade which means anything you convert and recruit that can be devout will become devout.

    #214593

    ExNihil
    Member

    Shrines are not devout, so they incur full damage +20% fire damage, also – if the army includes units purchased from inns or converted, such as various t3 units, as well as units produced or received from dwellings, they are not immune. In the current meta-game this is actually very much likely.

    Shrines don’t hit themselves with divine vengeance. Only others can.

    But I have found myself willing to torch my own golems if it means a perfect flame breaths in a row. Shrines is likely in same place too.

    Also, devout being granted to infantry/cavalry now applies to units that you recruited before you unlocked the empire upgrade which means anything you convert and recruit that can be devout will become devout.

    Sort of makes conceptual sense, at least for conver.. I guess if a yeti can be converted it should also be devout 😃

    #214596

    ExNihil
    Member

    Ofc it only applies to Infantry and cavalry units, not to summons, elementals, monsters, animals, correct? And what about irregulars? They used not to be devout even when produced as I recall?

    #214603

    Zaskow
    Member

    And what about irregulars?

    Only one iregular-devout is martyr.

    #214612

    quo
    Member

    Ofc it only applies to Infantry and cavalry units, not to summons, elementals, monsters, animals, correct? And what about irregulars? They used not to be devout even when produced as I recall?

    Here’s a basic summary.

    Some units are Devout by default even without the required techs:
    – Cherubs
    – Martyrs
    – Crusader
    – Evangelist
    – Exalted

    Some racial units can become Devout (used to not be retro-actively, now is)
    – Supports (applies retro-actively to built/converted units)
    – Calvary (applies retro-actively to built/converted units)
    – Infantry (applies retro-actively to built/converted units)

    Note: Although Heroes are considered Calvary in every other instance, including Dreadnought abilities that apply to Calvary they do not become Devout when a Theocrat researches the relevant techs.

    Units that are not Devout in current version of game, but used to be:
    – Shrines (and can not become so with techs)
    – Human Knights (IIRC)

    A handful of racial units are Devout by default, no tech required (there may be more than these but these two immediately come to mind):
    – Human Priests
    – Theocrat Heroes

    #214616

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    I wonder which debate will finish first. This one or the one between Greece and the rest of the EU.
    People place your bets!

    Basically the last pages of this thread were one side saying “well this is strong” and the other side saying “is it really?” or “you could just do thís, cause this is super strong too, it’s probably even stronger”, in which case the other side replied with “is it really?”. Seems rather balanced for that reason.

    #214620

    The Mentat
    Member

    Basically the last pages of this thread were one side saying “well this is strong” and the other side saying “is it really?” or “you could just do thís, cause this is super strong too, it’s probably even stronger”, in which case the other side replied with “is it really?”. Seems rather balanced for that reason.

    That means just there’s a balance between being balanced and being unbalanced.

    It doesn’t mean the matchup is balanced 😉

    #214628

    Lykus
    Member

    I wonder which debate will finish first. This one or the one between Greece and the rest of the EU.
    People place your bets!

    Basically the last pages of this thread were one side saying “well this is strong” and the other side saying “is it really?” or “you could just do thís, cause this is super strong too, it’s probably even stronger”, in which case the other side replied with “is it really?”. Seems rather balanced for that reason.

    I would say Greece will be dept free by the time we finish this discussion.

    #214629

    ExNihil
    Member

    Question: do support and infantry units from dwellings receive devout? E.G. Naga Slither and Matriarch?

    #214644

    quo
    Member

    Question: do support and infantry units from dwellings receive devout? E.G. Naga Slither and Matriarch?

    They get the tag yes. They do not get an extra medal. EDIT: Sorry, they do get an extra medal. What I meant was anything you Convert doesn’t get an extra medal. You get it if you build them.

    Also Support units get Healing from Order of Healing. So sometimes I have like a Bard with Heal converted from an enemy or a shrine.

    Hilariously, Martyrs are Irregulars, so if a Dreadnought Converts a Martyr it gains Sabotage and you can use it against the Theocrat in a kind of apostatic revenge. I don’t think the convert gets the power until the end of combat though.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by  President.
    #214701

    CrazyElf
    Member

    Divine Vengeance is only 30 points of damage against most Irregulars and less than that on a few of them. Even so, hitting more than 3 targets with Divine Vengeance is usually not possible unless the Dread feels like handing you victory. If even one of those Irregular units survives DV and has enough MP to hit you several times, your shrine is scrap metal.

    Not a weakness at all.

    You’re assuming that Divine Vengeance is all you have.

    1. Irregulars are likely to be hit by spirit bolts and unlike machines, they don’t have Spirit Immunity, which means they’ll get full damage.

    2. This gets even worse with the Theocrat Ultimate – Spirit Weakness. Irregular units don’t have the immunity, so they’ll have a huge weakness.

    3. You will usually have other units screening your Shrines. These will help protect the Shrine. You’re not going to have a “Shrine only” army.

    4. The irregulars, assuming they even survive to make it to the Shrine (highly unlikely), will be very heavily damaged.

    My point is that Sabotage on Irregulars just isn’t an advantage.

    #214702

    CrazyElf
    Member

    but, there is one decisive factor – if there are dread army leader perks then they will have 40% fire/shock resistance, if not they will likely die. Ofc the question is how you time the attack and so forth. For instance, if a shrine comes in and uses his divine vengeance vs. some machines, it will be exposed to irregulars if present. Also, if the Shrine enters medium-close range, it will become vulnerable. If the irregulars storm the shrine and exhaust most of their action points, they will die quickly to divine vengeance – probably. Finally, there is always the possibility that the shrine will also damage/kill friendly units.

    Divine vengeance is not a primary attack – it is an attack of last resort that might, with the right circumstances, be used as a primary attack.

    There’s also the Spirit Bolt, which IS the main attack, and the fact that there can only be one leader (plus only a few Dreadnought heroes).

    Also, the Shrine is not likely to damage friendly units at all. Most Theocrat units are Devout.

    #214710

    Ericridge
    Member

    Question: do support and infantry units from dwellings receive devout? E.G. Naga Slither and Matriarch?

    Wraiths from archon dwellings is even better. 😉

    Getting one up early is very gud for a theocrat. They’re incredible.

    #214712

    ExNihil
    Member

    interesting, but not good vs machines 🙂

    #214717

    Ericridge
    Member

    interesting, but not good vs machines :)

    Now you know what necromancer feels like when he fights a dreadnought before age of death is ready :p

    #214733

    Bouh
    Member

    interesting, but not good vs machines :)

    What is good against machines ? Sabotage and shock element of course. what else ?

    #214738

    Ericridge
    Member

    interesting, but not good vs machines :)

    What is good against machines ? Sabotage and shock element of course. what else ?

    I used warbreeds. They’re pretty good.

    #214745

    quo
    Member

    Wraiths from archon dwellings is even better.

    I never build these. They are fine units, just you need Heal Undead to heal them. They get the regular Heal from Order of Healing, so, not very useful. 🙁

    My point is that Sabotage on Irregulars just isn’t an advantage.

    Ok, I promise to unsee what I have seen to match your speculation. In no way is a 90 damage attack available on a unit that costs 40 gold and that is buildable without any city infrastructure useful. Got it.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by  President.
    #214765

    Bouh
    Member

    @quo : man the dreadnought must have not a single chance against the rogue. I mean, his first class unit has sabotage and will basicaly prevent you from playing. I wonder why you aren’t whining already.

    #214793

    quo
    Member

    man the dreadnought must have not a single chance against the rogue. I mean, his first class unit has sabotage and will basicaly prevent you from playing. I wonder why you aren’t whining already.

    Again your words. “Hard counter,” “prevent you from playing,” “not a single chance” etc. Not a recognizable point I have made.

    Rogues are effective against Dreadnoughts and Sabotage is part of why. Any power that deals 90 damage on a unit you can punt out like rabbits is going to be effective. See Ericridge’s description of having killed a rival Dreadnought using it. At the very least, the enemy can’t simply shrug it off, he has to react to it. Hopefully we don’t need to drag that point on for 10 more pages to settle an argument that was never made.

    #214794

    Bouh
    Member

    So what are you trying to say with sabotage from two pages now if not that it counter the shrine ?

    #214836

    Ericridge
    Member

    Wraiths from archon dwellings is even better.

    I never build these. They are fine units, just you need Heal Undead to heal them. They get the regular Heal from Order of Healing, so, not very useful. :(

    No, they can retreat to archon dwellings for healing or bring few archon casters to hang out just behind your main force. And there is now new well of souls for wraiths to drink from. And this is neglecting wraith’s life drain XD Think of them as very durable melee unit that can heal your soldiers without worrying about formations too much. Wraiths is far more self sufficient than before with eternal lords expansion.

    I admit it’s an fun option that isn’t as powerful as having elite priests for daze. Helps mix things up.

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