Theocrat endgame

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This topic contains 1,253 replies, has 52 voices, and was last updated by  Ericridge 6 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 181 through 210 (of 1,254 total)
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  • #204890

    Why not just make a spell like smite?

    Make it a buff spell, so you have to give up a turn or 2 in tactical combat, to allow your unit to gain fire damage.

    #204891

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    An option that might help would be to change the Shrine Of Smiting’s main ranged attack to be Fire/Lightning instead of Fire/Spirit. The big AoE is already Fire/Lightning after all.

    Interesting. I like it. Though it would reduce its synergy with armageddon vs all other targets.

    How about if it started with 10 fire, 10 shock but then gets, say, +2 spirit, +1 shock, +1 fire for every devout unit instead of +2 fire, +2 shock? That would allow it to still work with armaggedon somewhat but also still make it more effective vs machines.

    #204895

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    Why not just make a spell like smite?

    Make it a buff spell, so you have to give up a turn or 2 in tactical combat, to allow your unit to gain fire damage.

    I suggested something at least somewhat similar to this. That the exalted could change their spirit damage to shock for a single battle using a self buff.

    I would also be fine with a spell that could change a unit’s damage (or just add to it I suppose but I’m not really looking for a big buff) to shock. Would actually be interesting mechanics. If the spell took whatever spirit damage a unit had and converting it to shock it would work with shrines and holy war and all that stuff. Would create very interesting mechanics IMO.

    To implement it I’d do it as some sort of attribute skill that whenever the attacks are applied the damage is converted then. That would be the simplest. However it might be tricky to implement so I’m not sure if it is feasible.

    #204896

    CSav10
    Member

    I must admit till the ultimate global spell kicks in it can definitely feel fairly one sided. The way I see it is that apart from the fact the class requires very much on spirit damage to which pretty much all of the machines are immune to, they also all have good armour and HP which greatly reduces the remaining physical damage. To add to all this, most of the machines generally have a large range, so they will very likely be getting the first rounds of damage. I don’t think having lightning damage on the shrines is a particularly bad idea to be honest, as tombles suggested. It will swing things slightly in favour of the necro, and the match up against machines will be slightly more favourable(better class balance in general). I don’t think just having just the one unit will make theocrat dreadnought killers either. As ArcaneSeraph mentioned earlier a holy fire spell or something could do the trick too.

    #204898

    Bouh
    Member

    This is half the problem. Too many of the posters around here assume everyone else is just stupid but them. No one has yet to advocate that we should be able to just mass produced exalted and win every fight easily. The game and the balance discussion is much more intricate than this. Some of us are here to complain about a very recent nerf introduced against exalted vs machines. A completely unnecessary nerf. If dreads couldn’t figure out how to beat exalted they should’ve adapted their strategies.

    This “nerf” was brought because people complained about the exalted, and the conclusion was that stuning touch was not fitting the exalted.

    Thanks the whiners for that. I hope all changes would be like this, so people would stop whining for nothing.

    Shrines, exalted, evangelists, cherubs are all certainly useless against machines. Martyrs are highly questionable due to massive AoE attacks. That leaves crusaders that, while they can fight okay against machines aren’t really very good at it. So I would 5 out of 6 class units aren’t good against machines.

    Slayer’s doubt, smite, power of the word, holy war are all ineffective against machines. Purifying burst is relatively useless against dreads. Divine protection is marginal but it does sort of work so I won’t include it. Rebirth only helps if you actually win which is the problem vs. machines in the first place. Mighty meek, instant wrath, and blessing of health are good. I think it’s being generous to say 5 out of 10 combat spells work vs. machines.

    Of strategic spells (ignoring the city upgrade ones) Mark of the Heretic, denounce city (same thing though) and hallowed domain work. Wrath of God and the Great Purge don’t. Armageddon of course but that’s kind of late to be relevant. For non-city defence battles you’ve really got just the one spell that actually works pre armageddon: mark of the heretic.

    Shrines work fine against machines. Cherubs are scouts, not main battle units. Martyrs absorb pain, which always work.

    I stand : 4 out 6 units work fine against machines. And we ignore here that exalted are still tacticaly extra useful against dreadnought to kill supporting heroes and engineers and disrupt formations.

    For spells, I forgot one. That is 4 out of 10 that don’t work. Saying you will not win so rebirth is not useful is stupid and you know it. Don’t make a fool of yourself. Purrifying burst is useful too, for flashbang and overload, and the potential support buffs and specializations.

    For strategic spells, great purge still work fine to help you clear sites and independants and potential dwelling creatures, and for the combat summoned machines, but I’ll give it to you. That’s still only 2 strategic spells that don’t work against dreadnought machines.

    #204902

    CSav10
    Member

    How about if it started with 10 fire, 10 shock but then gets, say, +2 spirit, +1 shock, +1 fire for every devout unit instead of +2 fire, +2 shock? That would allow it to still work with armaggedon somewhat but also still make it more effective vs machines.

    I much like this idea ;). I would’t even be against just giving pure spirit for armageddon so that you would need to change strategy to deal with dread. Basically by going in with shrines you can choose to oppose the dreadnought, or by playing devout unit strategy and gaining 4+ spirit counter necro?

    #204906

    Zaskow
    Member

    Shrines work fine against machines.

    *facepalm*
    Return to reality, my friend.
    50% of damage negates from beginning. Fire weakness. You need to deploy at least 2-3 stacks full of devouts (Shrine isn’t devout) for going to same damage amount as Jugger.

    And we ignore here that exalted are still tacticaly extra useful against dreadnought to kill supporting heroes and engineers and disrupt formations.

    Only really noobish player or poor AI lets you to kill supports by exalted. It’s purpose of Golems to deal with such “smart” tactics.

    #204910

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    *facepalm*
    Return to reality, my friend.
    50% of damage negates from beginning. Fire weakness. You need to deploy at least 2-3 stacks full of devouts (Shrine isn’t devout) for going to same damage amount as Jugger.

    In my experience a shrine won’t even beat a golem without help. They have no chance at all against a flame tank.

    And then there is reassemble to consider. Even if you do manage to take down a heavy machine with the relatively ineffective shrines it can just come back. Shrines simply are not cost effective against machines. Nor are evangelists or exalted. It’s racials or nothing.

    #204928

    LordTyrael
    Member

    An option that might help would be to change the Shrine Of Smiting’s main ranged attack to be Fire/Lightning instead of Fire/Spirit. The big AoE is already Fire/Lightning after all.

    +1 Nerfing Armageddon dependency is good for the class.

    Turning it into an anti-dreadnought unit would also reverse the problem.

    Shrine have 20% fire weakness, hardly anti-dreadnought.

    #204932

    Bouh
    Member

    Only really noobish player or poor AI lets you to kill supports by exalted. It’s purpose of Golems to deal with such “smart” tactics.

    Haha ! And suddenly golems are so mighty units that one of them can singlehandedly rape a theocrat.

    Actualy, what the theocrat need is a kill the golem spell, because obviously this unit alone will kill him otherwise.

    Golem is the new bogeyman.

    The only solution is now to dumb down the theocrat as much as we can.

    #204933

    CrazyElf
    Member

    I admit my main endgame problem is dreadnought, i dont like the class to be reliant on racial units of an fire alignment for a victory chance. I’d like there to be an innate class answer. Armaggedon is the answer but a disjunct before a critical major battle and im done for, this will not happen for the Global Assault spell and the warlord melee armies (theo melee class) some sort of passive help would be nice, can even come after armaggedon research, like rogue and dark pact.

    The matchup dreadnougt against theocrat is the worst possible i can find, necro have more tools dealing with theocrat. Some sort of help at least, if not my general idea would be very appreciated.

    This seems like a lot of “ifs” to me.

    1. If you are not willing to use the Armageddon or if you are not willing to constantly keep it reinforced.
    2. If you are not willing to use racial units (Dwarf does well, as does Elf because machines are vulnerable to being stunned).
    3. If you are not willing to use other skills (there are plenty of machine counters out there). Cardinal Culling (doesn’t even need Masters), Shadowburn has shock damage, etc.

    As it stands Theocrat right now has probably the best early to mid game of all the classes right now, in exchange for a somewhat weaker late game (and even then, it’s arguably not weaker with the use of Armageddon).

    Theocrat right now has the mobility advantage too. Exalted for example generally do not share the vulnerabilities that other flying units have (attrition due to costs and as they are flying, they are vulnerable I find to crits).

    Age of Wonders is essentially a rock-paper-scissors game. Sorcerers counter Dreadnoughts pretty well. I feel like this thread is complaining that you are fighting scissors with paper and wondering why things are not going well.

    There are other weak points. Warlord (which I will be discussing in another thread) has no great answers to Shadow Stalkers (and i suppose Phantasm Warriors as well).

    #204934

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    When we originally made the classes, we realised the weakness against machines, which is how Exalted ended up with Stunning Touch and how Shrines got Divine Vengeance. I think that, in the end, Divine Vengeance just isn’t enough. It’s a one off ability, even with shock weakness it’s only going to to do 25 or so damage to a machine, and then you’re stuck with half the shrine’s damage being ignored. Having the main attack of the Shrine be Shock/Fire would fix that. If people feel the Shrine needs Spirit damage, I guess we could put the Spirit damage in the Divine Vengeance instead?

    As for Exalted, I have a couple of ideas that will give them a little kick without being simply “Tougher/Stronger/Better”. Maybe something to do with the Heretic mechanic, I’m not sure. Be aware that I am very short on time here, if I change something, I need to be certain that it’s going to stick and that we’re not going to be drowning in “EXALTED OP!!! D:” threads in a couple of weeks, when it’s too late for me to fix it.

    #204936

    CrazyElf
    Member

    When we originally made the classes, we realised the weakness against machines, which is how Exalted ended up with Stunning Touch and how Shrines got Divine Vengeance. I think that, in the end, Divine Vengeance just isn’t enough. It’s a one off ability, even with shock weakness it’s only going to to do 25 or so damage to a machine, and then you’re stuck with half the shrine’s damage being ignored. Having the main attack of the Shrine be Shock/Fire would fix that. If people feel the Shrine needs Spirit damage, I guess we could put the Spirit damage in the Divine Vengeance instead?

    I think it is an option. The drawback of course is that it will not benefit from Armageddon as much. Of course, it would lead to other problems – weaker versus electrical resistant units.

    I’d recommend putting an upper limit as well to the maximum number of units the Bolt can stack – say up to 5-10 units (so 20-40 damage extra) on the bolt?

    #204941

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    I think it is an option. The drawback of course is that it will not benefit from Armageddon as much. Of course, it would lead to other problems – weaker versus electrical resistant units.

    That’s only Sorceror units, really, and Theocrat isn’t particularly weak against Sorceror, right?

    #204945

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    When we originally made the classes, we realised the weakness against machines, which is how Exalted ended up with Stunning Touch and how Shrines got Divine Vengeance. I think that, in the end, Divine Vengeance just isn’t enough. It’s a one off ability, even with shock weakness it’s only going to to do 25 or so damage to a machine, and then you’re stuck with half the shrine’s damage being ignored. Having the main attack of the Shrine be Shock/Fire would fix that. If people feel the Shrine needs Spirit damage, I guess we could put the Spirit damage in the Divine Vengeance instead?

    That’d be okay. Shock / Fire on main attack. Shock / Spirit on divine vengeance.

    I still think adding spirit to the main attack via the devout unit buff would be okay too, as an alternate approach. But your suggestion is fine for the most part.

    As for Exalted, I have a couple of ideas that will give them a little kick without being simply “Tougher/Stronger/Better”. Maybe something to do with the Heretic mechanic, I’m not sure. Be aware that I am very short on time here, if I change something, I need to be certain that it’s going to stick and that we’re not going to be drowning in “EXALTED OP!!! D:” threads in a couple of weeks, when it’s too late for me to fix it.

    I personally like the idea of giving the exalted an ability to make other units devout for the battle. Could use it on your non-theo heroes or converted units or pikemen, summons, etc. It would combine well with mark of the heretic but not really be overpowered since you have to give up a turn to do it. It would give them good synergy with non-devout units that have rainbow attacks (fairies and such) and just a mini boost for other units.

    That is a new skill so I’m not sure if you have time for that. It’d get my vote though 🙂

    Edit: Actually I’m mistaking heretic for mighty meek in their effect. Heretic only works on physical so it wouldn’t benefit rainbow attacks any more than any other. Still though I think it’s a nice idea.

    #204946

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    That’s only Sorceror units, really, and Theocrat isn’t particularly weak against Sorceror, right?

    All the other theo units would still be just as effective against sorcs so yeah it’s not too big a deal IMO.

    #204956

    Zaskow
    Member

    Haha ! And suddenly golems are so mighty units that one of them can singlehandedly rape a theocrat.

    Fact is that Golem can kill most class theo unit in 1 vs. 1 without problems. Even higher tier.

    As for Exalted, I have a couple of ideas that will give them a little kick without being simply “Tougher/Stronger/Better”. Maybe something to do with the Heretic mechanic, I’m not sure. Be aware that I am very short on time here, if I change something, I need to be certain that it’s going to stick and that we’re not going to be drowning in “EXALTED OP!!! D:” threads in a couple of weeks, when it’s too late for me to fix it.

    Then if you haven’t much time for fixing Exalted I’ll suggest simplest thing – just drop price for them a bit. -10 g and -5/10 mana would be enough.

    #204958

    CSav10
    Member

    I don’t really see shrines going in close to take on dreadnoughts at any rate so having the spirit utility in the divine vengeance section of things should be fine. I wouldn’t be against either the 2+spirit +1fire +1shock devout unit buff as ArcanceSeraph mentioned before, or if people want a greater effect from armageddon on shrines then +4 spirit would probably be ok. If the shrines bolt attacks deal shock damage + fire this alone should definitely provide a much better match up, though I’d be more than happy with a 2holy 1fire 1shock mix on devout stacking.

    #204966

    LordTyrael
    Member

    This seems like a lot of “ifs” to me.

    1. If you are not willing to use the Armageddon or if you are not willing to constantly keep it reinforced.
    2. If you are not willing to use racial units (Dwarf does well, as does Elf because machines are vulnerable to being stunned).
    3. If you are not willing to use other skills (there are plenty of machine counters out there). Cardinal Culling (doesn’t even need Masters), Shadowburn has shock damage, etc.

    What makes you think that? I’m willing to use everything to my advantage. We went through all those spells and counters for the last 4 pages, why ignore the last pages and quoting this older post? Cardinal culling would be just as bad if not worse for the Theocrat and it’s a master spell now. There are machine counters but few for the Theocrat class.

    Age of Wonders is essentially a rock-paper-scissors game. Sorcerers counter Dreadnoughts pretty well. I feel like this thread is complaining that you are fighting scissors with paper and wondering why things are not going well.

    I don’t agree, i can’t find a single matchup this bad for one side.

    There are other weak points. Warlord (which I will be discussing in another thread) has no great answers to Shadow Stalkers (and i suppose Phantasm Warriors as well).

    Warlord can use Support, 5 races or so have working priests vs Shadow stalkers, unfortunately Theocrat can’t use 5 different races to counter machines, shadow stalker is just one unit and all machines have spirit immunity.

    You wrote a post asking if Juggernaut is a bit weak and needed a buff, i don’t think we can agree because i think Juggernaut is one of the most dangerous T4 in the game. and it’s buffed now made it all worse for the theocrat.

    #204968

    CrazyElf
    Member

    What makes you think that? I’m willing to use everything to my advantage. We went through all those spells and counters for the last 4 pages, why ignore the last pages and quoting this older post? Cardinal culling would be just as bad if not worse for the Theocrat and it’s a master spell now. There are machine counters but few for the Theocrat class.

    Your words – not mine:

    I admit my main endgame problem is dreadnought, i dont like the class to be reliant on racial units of an fire alignment for a victory chance. I’d like there to be an innate class answer. Armaggedon is the answer but a disjunct before a critical major battle and im done for, this will not happen for the Global Assault spell and the warlord melee armies (theo melee class) some sort of passive help would be nice, can even come after armaggedon research, like rogue and dark pact.

    As far as the Dreadnought debate, I think the point is moot now that Tombles has opted to change Theocrat Shrine damage to lightning.

    You wrote a post asking if Juggernaut is a bit weak and needed a buff, i don’t think we can agree because i think Juggernaut is one of the most dangerous T4 in the game. and it’s buffed now made it all worse for the theocrat.

    It does have it’s strengths and weaknesses. I’d argue the weak points exceed the strengths though.

    Against Sorcerer, Elves, and other opponents, it is quite weak:

    1. Vulnerable to electricity and by extension, stuns
    2. Resistance is not too high (mitigated somewhat by Great Mobilization)
    3. Melee is very weak for a T4.

    You could make an argument that Sorcerer is the “scissors” for DN’s paper though.

    #204973

    Having the main attack of the Shrine be Shock/Fire would fix that. If people feel the Shrine needs Spirit damage, I guess we could put the Spirit damage in the Divine Vengeance instead?

    As for Exalted, I have a couple of ideas that will give them a little kick without being simply “Tougher/Stronger/Better”. Maybe something to do with the Heretic mechanic, I’m not sure. Be aware that I am very short on time here, if I change something, I need to be certain that it’s going to stick and that we’re not going to be drowning in “EXALTED OP!!! D:” threads in a couple of weeks, when it’s too late for me to fix it.

    That sounds like a neat idea. Divine vengeance as fire and spirit is the best thematic fit, whereas smiting with lightning and fire is really nice.

    #204978

    Ericridge
    Member

    Excuse me. See those golems prepared for your holy warriors in defensive stance?

    Just stay on guard and wait. If those golems give up and attack you, you can now kill them easily enough. If you swing your swords at golems in defensive stance that is giving exactly what the golems want. Golems is now dead.

    I’ve had experience of fighting Dreadnoughts as a Theocrat. I generally go for the smaller battles because it’s much easier to kill them that way. Failing that, well, go for the waves approach or fall back to stretch out their armies or disregard their offensive punch and run straight for their cities where their numbers is smaller.

    A bunch of exalteds should be running around and sniping under defended cities.

    If you give dreadnought enough time, he will have soldiers everywhere while attackign you and that’s what you don’t want.

    Oh and I actually won’t oppose Shrine of Smiting doom buffs, it probably needs something against the dreadnought because I only fear it’s divine vengenace aoe.

    #204982

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Be aware that I am very short on time here, if I change something, I need to be certain that it’s going to stick and that we’re not going to be drowning in “EXALTED OP!!! D:” threads in a couple of weeks, when it’s too late for me to fix it.

    I cannot imagine I will ever see that in my lifetime! 😉

    At any rate, why such a short time frame? Will there be no content updates for a while after this one?

    #204994

    To continue thinking, swapping spirit for shock in the normal strike is a large buff, not just against dread, but everyone but sorc because shock immunity is rare, and shocking is fairly common (star blades, elf pikes, air elementals, etc). The switch to spirit for divine wrath would not be that big a debuff, as it goes with Armageddon, will allow undead mass slaying, and reduces friendly fire for non devout units (since strong will and fire immunity are very common).

    As compensation, I suggest that shrines get 40% blight weakness (for 60% resistance total). It makes thematic sense, since an altar is vulnerable to being desecrated, and gives the undead/goblins a nice counter (also orcs with curse). It also fits how the altar is psuedo living with other devout units making it heal.

    Shield of light should also replace static shield as the gold ability.

    As for the exalted, an easy way to not overpower the unit is to attach the anti machine ability to either the second or third theocrat class building. That way, absorb pain exalted will lack the anti machine ability, and the produced exalted absorb pain.

    #204998

    LordTyrael
    Member

    Your words – not mine:

    I never said i didn’t use those things, strange conclusion. I try to research Armageddon fast when i know there is a growing dreadnought empire.

    It does have it’s strengths and weaknesses. I’d argue the weak points exceed the strengths though.

    Against Sorcerer, Elves, and other opponents, it is quite weak:

    1. Vulnerable to electricity and by extension, stuns
    2. Resistance is not too high (mitigated somewhat by Great Mobilization)
    3. Melee is very weak for a T4.

    You could make an argument that Sorcerer is the “scissors” for DN’s paper though.

    I think the opposite.

    I don’t agree against Elves, storm sisters have low survivability, not much of a threat to juggernaut, one flametank cannon, mortar crit and they’re gone. Elf warlord would be hard with inflict stun manticore but will also take heavy damage. Dreadnought hero, leader stacks can prevent lightning weakness. Things that the Dreadnought is vulnerable to, Sorcs etc still take large amount of damage from Juggernauts and machines. Sorc summoning Earth elementals can be a strong anti machine strategy though, earth elementals will die fast to blight/lightning supports if the dreadnought have them.

    The real weaknesses of Juggernaut that i can think of, is lack of regeneration and slow speed but maintenance and expander buff have helped alleviate that struggle, those are necessary to balance unit.

    I can’t regard that as a real weakness since the Juggernaut is a T4 artillery unit with lots of resilience and amazing firepower, a stronger melee attack would be unbalanced.

    #205001

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Dammit, if Archangel were a Theocrat T4 at release and Shrine a bit depowered to a T3 (it’s a situational unit that I don’t always build anyways), I would have been very happy! 😉

    #205004

    Aennor
    Member

    Shield of light should also replace static shield as the gold ability.

    I’m surprised it’s haven’t done yet 🙂

    #205005

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    I don’t really see switching shock for spirit on the main attack to be that much of a buff that it needs an extra 40% weakness to compensate it. Inflict shocking really isn’t spammable for the theocrat except for maybe the elven union guards who aren’t devout to begin with.

    Considering that for any target that it is a buff the resulting divine vengeance will be a nerf. I mean heck you lose the entire synergy with armageddon! That’s like 80% damage loss. Isn’t that enough of a debuff?

    It’s actually nerf against the undead and the sorcerer. It’s a slight buff against the AD with wild hunt active. It’s a slight buff against the warlord with blood brothers. It actually helps with theo-theo battles.

    Many other classes have seen significant improvements in their late game abilities and units with no compensatory debuff. AD’s new horned god got 2 new abilities and just lost inflict crippling wounds. The sorcerer got a new upgrade and several cheaper spells with no nerf. Also the theocrat’s exalted have just suffered a pretty heavy nerf. That should be enough right there.

    #205011

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Many other classes have seen significant improvements in their late game abilities and units with no compensatory debuff. AD’s new horned god got 2 new abilities and just lost inflict crippling wounds. The sorcerer got a new upgrade and several cheaper spells with no nerf. Also the theocrat’s exalted have just suffered a pretty heavy nerf. That should be enough right there.

    Indeed; the beta tester group needs a Theocrat advocate. I nominate you! 😉

    #205012

    LordTyrael
    Member

    Shield of light should also replace static shield as the gold ability.

    Static shield is a reminder of the Ark, shield of light is a good replacement though.

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