This forum is lost for balance

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This topic contains 96 replies, has 37 voices, and was last updated by  Bouh 7 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #112909

    Bouh
    Member

    I hereby declare this forum lost for balance.

    People don’t understand basic principles of balance and mistake different or diverse with underpowered because this doesn’t fit their playstyle, or they don’t understand things and ask to tune them to fit their tastes better.

    But even worse is that people base a lot of their balance concerns without considering the metagame and sadly devs follow these advices. Adapting units to the metagame is not good balancing.

    For these reasons I’m afraid for the futur of the game. Devs do a great job, but slowly some streamlining changes come with each patch hence showing that the vocal “streamliners” are geting what they want, albeit slowly.

    Discussing balance on these forum is now a nightmare. People don’t even want to understand the broader picture and don’t want to account for metagame. They are too focused on their thing and too proud of their skill.

    I lost hope. Farewell and good luck.

    #112912

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Some things get more streamlined, some things get more differentiated. If anything, I think there’s been more of the latter than the former.

    I’ll admit there have been a few times when I’ve seen someone say something is OP or UP, and thought ‘is it really so, or is just that it’s different and you haven’t figured out how to deal with it or how to use it?’ Sometimes it’s one, sometimes it’s the other, but my impression is that the devs are looking to increase rather than decrease diversity, even if it’s sometimes a two-steps-forward-one-step-back process.

    #112914

    Gloweye
    Member

    really?….

    You could at least try and see things from other people’s perspective. Merely because I often disagree with you(as other ppl do, I understand if you sometimes feel ganged up on. But believe me, Its NOT personal.), doesn’t mean I (or you, for that matter) have no understanding of the game.

    Furthermore, I cannot remember anyone here trying to make all races the same. Opposite, everyone wants more diversity.

    And if you’ll allow me, I want to point out a little contradiction in your statement.

    But even worse is that people base a lot of their balance concerns without considering the metagame and sadly devs follow these advices. Adapting units to the metagame is not good balancing.

    People don’t even want to understand the broader picture and don’t want to account for metagame.

    This seems like a contradiction. The units shouldn’t be adepted to the metagame, but it has to be accounted for?

    #112918

    Draxynnic
    Member

    And if you’ll allow me, I want to point out a little contradiction in your statement.

    Bouh wrote:

    But even worse is that people base a lot of their balance concerns without considering the metagame and sadly devs follow these advices. Adapting units to the metagame is not good balancing.

    Bouh wrote:

    People don’t even want to understand the broader picture and don’t want to account for metagame.

    This seems like a contradiction. The units shouldn’t be adepted to the metagame, but it has to be accounted for?

    I think what Bouh was saying here is that people should consider that a unit might be weak or powerful because the metagame makes it weak or powerful, not because it is inherently so.

    For instance, to give a topical example: If sorcerers are popular in the metagame, this will naturally make support units such as priests more valuable as a counter to physical-resistant wisps and phantasm warriors. So if support units are overly popular, is this because they’re actually too powerful, or because they’re being used to fight something that is common in the metagame at the moment and if the metagame were to switch to, say, warlord thoroughbred unicorn rider rushes, then the support units might drop in popularity in favour of pikemen.

    So to translate, in his first statement, he’s saying it’s not good balancing to balance according to what is currently popular in the metagame. In his second statement, he’s saying that the metagame needs to be considered before deciding that something is OP or UP – it may be that there’s nothing wrong with a unit itself, but that the metagame either favours or disfavours it and maybe in a month or two the metagame will shift and, with it, the popular units will change.

    #112920

    Devs do a great job, but slowly some streamlining changes come with each patch hence showing that the vocal “streamliners” are geting what they want, albeit slowly.

    You might get more sympathy if you could show concrete examples of this happening…

    #112921

    madmac
    Member

    I have to admit, I’m getting extremely weary of balance talk in general. It’s spilled out of it’s designated subforum and started choking out any other type of discussion.

    It’s great that the devs have been so responsive and all but people really need to let the game breathe a little between posting one big list of proposed balance changes after another. I rather doubt anyone has fully explored the options provided in the last huge rebalance patch, to say nothing of the next huge incoming patch and new content.

    I can only imagine a newcomer to the forum would get the impression this game is wildly unbalanced and desperately in need of patching when nothing could be further from the truth.

    #112922

    While this a good consideration in general, sorcerer has been the standout in the meta game since the middle of the beta, and all the top players believe that the Sorcerer (and the Archdruid, although that is up to some debate) is in a class above the others at the moment. Ditto on Warlord weakness in 1 vs. 1/ffa games (in team games, where one player can pick up the scouting slack, I assume they are pretty nifty).

    If you can’t rely on the consensus of virtually every player for the class rankings, I don’t really know on what basis you could balance stuff.

    #112924

    syntax_vi
    Member

    I’m torn all together on this issue. I love how responsive the devs are, and that they actually post and respond to people’s concerns and ideas. I’ve never seen such a great dev team on a TBS. So, I think, at the end of the day I’ll trust them, as thus far they’ve done a pretty good job.

    That being said I think it’s important for the house conservatives (bouh and others like him) to push back against the house liberals (Ex and others) so both sides get their say. I do think both sides get too heated and should try to remain objective and not take things personally, or attack one another.

    Many of the changes thrown around on the board do scare me, as the last thing I want out of this game is a homogenized cookie cutter game. That being said, I can see how much pain staking effort has gone into making this game NOT THAT WAY. I doubt the devs will suddenly roll over and make it so. They seem to often come up with creative solutions that further diversity to answer many of the legitimate complaints on the board, rather than just add ability X and buff hp and defense.

    #112925

    madmac
    Member

    While this a good consideration in general, sorcerer has been the standout in the meta game since the middle of the beta, and all the top players believe that the Sorcerer (and the Archdruid, although that is up to some debate) is in a class above the others at the moment. Ditto on Warlord weakness in 1 vs. 1/ffa games (in team games, where one player can pick up the scouting slack, I assume they are pretty nifty).

    If you can’t rely on the consensus of virtually every player for the class rankings, I don’t really know on what basis you could balance stuff.

    It’s one thing to point out that Sorcerers are currently the best/most popular class and even make suggestions to bring them down a notch. It’s a different thing to assume that Sorcerer will always be the best and the metagame will always revolve around them in your balance assessments.

    #112927

    Ditto on Warlord weakness in 1 vs. 1/ffa games (in team games, where one player can pick up the scouting slack, I assume they are pretty nifty).

    Warlord was actually a strong class before the research slowdown, because it could get to mass T-3 earlier than most other classes. This sort of made up for poor early game scouting.

    #112929

    ExNihil
    Member

    @bouh,

    I’m sorry you got pushed – when I get pushed I push back. You could have had civil conversation, but in fact in most threads where i see you pop up you “jump” (to use your term) the guy who makes a suggestion and attack him. A good example is the Orc Balance Suggestion thread in the balance suggestions sub-forum.

    So you came into a thread, posted against virtually everything I wrote for 25 pages and even when I showed you, you were mistaken you could never be convinced or admitted a mistake, simply moved on to criticize my next posts – again ignoring my points and referring to some principles i do not understand and so forth. Then you start this thread… man this is a bit.. well…

    @madmac et al.

    I have started a thread with balance suggestions. You have contributed to the discussion significantly. No body is forcing anyone to use the forum and the devs will do what they think is best. I think by and large that thread is a valuable contribution to this game and the community and some of the most experienced players and beta-testers have participated in the discussions. I further think there has been some highly original ideas and some good discussions. The only problem I see is that people insist on arguing even when a dialogue is possible and that when someone actually proves a point those who argued don’t get convinced but simply fall silent. Examples: your argument against my suggestion to move elementals one tier lower, which you shouted against for 3 pages and then when I posted the actual numbers in response simply disappeared. Or ofc the very long and arduous discussion of the Sorcerer, which forced me to start proving stuff using game data – When what @chrysophylax páuperem is correct – this is a known fact amount virtually every experienced player. In fact you and Bouh entrench yourself in some positions and make it into an ideological stronghold – man this is a bit absurd – we are all talking about a game we are passionate about and want to contribute, also we are all nerds.

    I will not participate in this thread. You are all – including you Bouh – welcome to discuss stuff in the other thread, on the other hand if the point of posting is to write on how “streamlining” and “homogenizing” are all those people who talk about imbalances and stuff are, stay here please.

    #112930

    Ravenholme
    Member

    I’m torn all together on this issue. I love how responsive the devs are, and that they actually post and respond to people’s concerns and ideas. I’ve never seen such a great dev team on a TBS. So, I think, at the end of the day I’ll trust them, as thus far they’ve done a pretty good job.

    That being said I think it’s important for the house conservatives (bouh and others like him) to push back against the house liberals (Ex and others) so both sides get their say. I do think both sides get too heated and should try to remain objective and not take things personally, or attack one another.

    Many of the changes thrown around on the board do scare me, as the last thing I want out of this game is a homogenized cookie cutter game. That being said, I can see how much pain staking effort has gone into making this game NOT THAT WAY. I doubt the devs will suddenly roll over and make it so. They seem to often come up with creative solutions that further diversity to answer many of the legitimate complaints on the board, rather than just add ability X and buff hp and defense.

    I agree with this, and I also agree with the devs being pretty good about balance themselves, so I’m hoping that they stay their natural tendencies rather than listening to some of the more… liberal suggestions for balance, which honestly read as people coming up with their own fantasies about how the game should function and dressing it up as a solution to problems that are dubious in provenance in and of themselves.

    #112934

    madmac
    Member

    @exnihil

    You mistake exhaustion for acquiesce, that’s all. Silence is not agreement.

    #112942

    Low_K
    Member

    The game is unbalanced imho. Level 4’s are too overpowered regarding Level 1-2s and this is unbalancing. If you don’t have level 4’s only one enemy stack of level 4s can destroy your entire empire. Especially Goblins against Flame Cannons, Shrine of Smitings, Cannons, etc.

    If Bouh thinks the game is balanced, also fine. Options need to come for people who find the game unbalanced, so that the people who think the game is balanced, don’t have to use the option. This will be a win-win situation.

    The best solution is just release MOD TOOLS (as asked for a long time), and we can balance the game as we would like. It worked in Shadow Magic, why not Aow3? Just have a same system in place that you can select at startup if, and what, mod you want to use. Disable mods if you want to play MP with strangers, enable it if you want to MP with a friend who also has the mod installed or solo play.

    If Triumph doesn’t want to open the whole game for modding (like adding graphics, etc.) then just supply us with options to tinker with the stats and abilities of the different units.

    I keep spamming this until I get an official Dev reply, and back to topic;

    Discussion about if the game is balanced or not is not wrong. Everyone has different opinions about balance and the game, different playstyles and the one thing we have in common is that we all like it.

    Kind regards,

    Low

    #112945

    BigBripa
    Member

    Ok well I don’t think anyone is arguing against racial differences here. We all like that they have different resistances, different specialty units, even difference between units of the same basic class. What I think the majority of those who want balance are seeking is, idk, BALANCE.

    No one plays Underground maps. If you say that’s a personal choice, well, sorry no it’s not because the player pool is really shallow and if you actually want to game with others then you’re not going to be playing underground maps. Ok, now given that an entire aspect of Goblins is nullified lets look at the rest. Hates Volcanic and Arctic, well that just destroyed settling like a third of the map. So you’re being driven even further down the pile, in terms of effectiveness.

    So on top of that you get a system wherein you can produce a lot of units cheaply. All of your most effective units have blight damage. So let’s see who has blight defense. Dwarves, undead, machines, pretty heavy contingent of monsters. Well seeing as Dwarf is the most popular race in multiplayer, you’re at a pretty heavy disadvantage. On paper you should be good vs. elves but most of the time elves still murder the shit out of you.

    No HP on units, granted that’s racial and I think it makes sense but just to ENNUMERATE the disadvantages goblins have relative to other races: AOE destroys you. Virtually any unit that gets a green attack hex on your units will take your unit. You have no resistances except to Blight so you’re covered vs other goblins (don’t hold your breath though because no one plays them. I play Goblins and I’m literally the only person I’ve run into that plays them.)

    You have no flying or mountaineering or swimming. Granted, Beetles underground are like “flying” since they have great movement and can tunnel but again, no one plays underground. In games that take place in Reality, where there is only above ground, you have no high-movement units. Wolf has Forestry. That’s about it.

    Basically unless people start popularizing underground (which they won’t because it adds HOURS to multiplayer games that are already HOURS long) then Goblins, get this: will never be played by anyone except as a novelty. So is that what you want? I just don’t understand, because we’re talking about balance so that there is EQUAL VIABILITY TO EVERY RACE meaning that in general every race has an equal chance of winning in a multiplayer setting, so that people can discover their own niche and play the races and strats that they like. We’re not saying they should all be the same or even that they should have units that are basically stand-ins for one another.

    This is just one example of how balance has nothing to do with eliminating the racial differences, just making sure they are implemented in such a way as to not break or make obsolete entire elements of the game. There are just quite simply classes that are more worth it than others if you would like to win games. There are races that are more worth it than others if you want to win games. Why? Why should a system that we all love because of its plethora of options be IN REALITY limited to a very few?

    We’re all interested in new races. If we’re just going to leave some behind, what is the point of making new ones?

    There has to be balance to make the game interesting. If you feel like making it more balanced is ruining it for you, that really blows because we have too little players as it is and would hate to lose any but it’s a bigger priority, in my mind at least, to make the game more enjoyable for the majority.

    ETA: Obviously the biggest problem with gobs is atrocious Auto-Combat losses. Didn’t state that because it seems obvious and others have talked it to death but to reiterate… games that take place in reality reward units surviving auto combat to get medals. why do swarmers die the easiest of all? What is autocombat doing that throws your most valuable units away? Anyway, yes this also makes them crippled in MP, not that they needed another thing but this is the most glaring.

    #112947

    It does get a bit tiring hearing the same things posted again and again.

    It is at best, mildly amusing and at worst downright irritating when people make a statement, discussion is had and counterpoints are made, and then same people make same statement, seemingly ignoring the mass of discussion that has been had…

    #112950

    Low_K
    Member

    @BBB; If Devs would actually give some official input on specific suggestions, the same points don’t have to be made all the time. (Regarding my “spamming” of the same suggestion).

    Kind regards,

    Low

    #112951

    Dr_K
    Member

    @low_k

    My guess as to why Triumph has not released Modding tools is due to the fact that they want to hear from the community as to things that seem unbalanced. If mod tools were released then it would be awfully difficult to determine whether an imbalance is due to the original game or a mod that someone forgot that they had installed.

    I do hope that they eventually release them (confirmation of whether they are or not would be nice), but I can understand why it is not a top priority or in the works yet.

    ————-

    I think by and large that thread is a valuable contribution to this game and the community and some of the most experienced players and beta-testers have participated in the discussions. I further think there has been some highly original ideas and some good discussions.

    There are a bunch of good ideas and content in there, but it is not a valuable or convenient thread. That thread is an abomination. It is precisely the thing that forums exist to prevent.

    Firstly, there is a balancing subforum where threads about balancing should be, so the thread shouldn’t exist on the discussion forum. Forums are designed to avoid the issue of multiple topics being discussed in the same exact thread so that better dialogues can happen. Continuing that thread in the current manner is only making it more difficult for the dialogue to continue outside of it.

    The other problem with the thread is that there are numerous actual discussion threads within that larger thread. Avoiding this issue is the entire point of creating multiple topics. And on top of that you continue to pull in new subjects from other threads that have already been beaten to death themselves. There is a reason the thread exists in the first place; go to that thread and join that discussion.

    You are all – including you Bouh – welcome to discuss stuff in the other thread,…

    Please just let it die or at least make a new thread to discuss more pointed topics. This allows more discussions about more topics to happen simultaneously without muddling up the other discussions. Joining a 25 page plus topic to pitch an idea where you had to read every single page and post to find the previous arguments that people allude to is absurd. Single topic threads still have this issue, but it is lessened due to the lack of extraneous information.

    #112953

    @BBB; If Devs would actually give some official input on specific suggestions, the same points don’t have to be made all the time. (Regarding my “spamming” of the same suggestion).

    Kind regards,

    Low

    It’s quite illuminating that you immediately thought that was directed at you! It wasn’t about you specifically, although by your own admission you are “spamming” (I always find it crazy that a meat product became associated with junk mail and then repeating things…language is a funny old thing) but about general behaviour when it comes to debates, although a great deal of that is it being the internet.

    #112959

    Low_K
    Member

    @BBB; Well it wasn’t that strange I felt it was directed at me. I am well aware that I keep repeating the same points, so that is why I thought you meant me. If I sounded a bit harsh or anything, it wasn’t my meaning to sound that way though.

    As to the point of general behaviour in debates; It is because of the internet. People can more easily write things in the safe environment of their own home, anonymously behind their screen acting all “Internet Tuff Guy” (or girl).

    I suggest everyone on this forum gets together in a pub in Delft, together with the Devs, and solve all the different problems/suggestions/discussions/debates with some beers and a free tour of the studio, with goody bags.

    Kind regards,

    Low

    #112961

    Ricminator
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Bouh wrote:</div>
    Devs do a great job, but slowly some streamlining changes come with each patch hence showing that the vocal “streamliners” are geting what they want, albeit slowly.

    You might get more sympathy if you could show concrete examples of this happening…

    Well BloodyBattleBrain what about the warlords scout? Everyone is complaining he lacks a scout, because everyone believes a scout has to be a cheap-squishy-shitty unit, where I believe you have to think outside the box and use race-cavalry.

    But what happens: no one is using warlord and thus the devs had no other option than provide exactly what the streamliners wants. And so we have less uniqueness, where we could have more( Bob5’s idea of adding more Line of Sight to the warlords watchtowers could have worked too).

    Furthermore I believe that some idea’s or solutions interfere with other players playstyle and as such they are the reason of some heated debate. If only every player would be a little bit more open minded on “how you can play with a certain class”, then I believe the discussions would have been more friendlier and faster.

    Now you see some solutions who really try to enforce a “preferred playstyle for a certain class” and then people have no other choice than to react, because if you don’t, you agree with it. Partly you saw that with ExNihil’s sorcerer problem. I never had such problems, so when I readed it, I wondered what was going on and I was definately not happy with what he proposed to do. Only when the numbers showed up there, did I realise what was going on and then I made my post about what the problem was. Only problem I have there, is that I still don’t know for sure whether or not we have a solution which solves ExNihil’s problem, while respecting all the different playstyles you can use for sorcerer.

    And that should be the key for any proposal, that no matter what problem you try to
    solve it should never enforce a preferred playstyle as solution (which automaticly means that we still need the warlords scout, so that anyone who doesn’t want to use the horses can use him instead(him being mutually exclusive with the watchtowers LoS upgrade would probably be the ultimate)).

    #112964

    Well BloodyBattleBrain what about the warlords scout? Everyone is complaining he lacks a scout, because everyone believes a scout has to be a cheap-squishy-shitty unit, where I believe you have to think outside the box and use race-cavalry.

    you actually could do this initially, but that became less possible after the research slowdown. I think monster hunters also came out early enough to be good scouts. It was actually the long game sp players, rather than mp or shorter game players, who called for that change.

    BBB, and others, have also speculated about a scouting spell or some other kind of solution. And a produce-able scout of the kind discussed, a “glade runner” (from the earlier games) would actually be quite unique.

    It would be the only humanoid scout, and the only non ranged T-1 irregular unit. It would make the warlord equal/a little better at scouting on plain land maps, and worse on ones with mountains/other terrain.

    #112967

    My guess as to why Triumph has not released Modding tools is due to the fact that they want to hear from the community as to things that seem unbalanced. If mod tools were released then it would be awfully difficult to determine whether an imbalance is due to the original game or a mod that someone forgot that they had installed.

    Mod tools are quite often a totally different thing from the tools available to the devs and so they first of all need to create the mod tools for you to use before they can release them.

    I do hope that they eventually release them (confirmation of whether they are or not would be nice), but I can understand why it is not a top priority or in the works yet.

    It actually has been stated many, many times that mod tools have been greenlit. I do know that they were in the planning stage before the game was even released so i hope that production on them will start if not after this dlc/expansion, then the next one. But i would prefer right damn now Triumph!! O.O

    I guess the best way to look at it is that the top priority is to the make the game as amazing and complete as possible an then work on the secondary and tertiary goals.

    #112971

    Bouh
    Member

    If Bouh thinks the game is balanced

    I don’t think the game is balanced. This is also a common misunderstanding. I only want balance to be done properly.

    @exnihil : your words here are ironic because your other thread is not about balance but about what you think should be done. You are as stubborn and offensive as I am, the difference between us is that I prone caution when you have your ideas and nobody is ever gonna change them because you will only ever trust in game examples.

    Also, as of now I can’t really say that Triumph is going the the streamlining route, because there are only two patches. Yet I worry a little about the futur.

    If the patch is as good as the previous were, it won’t make a bad game. But as some said, previous patches bring some imbalances eventualy. To many people don’t understand this. Game balance is an ecosystem. Changing one tiny thing can have huge consequences. Many people don’t understand this and I’m tired of explaining it.

    #112972

    Taykor
    Member

    Well, there were many right things said here. In many cases I just can’t but agree.

    For instance, to give a topical example: If sorcerers are popular in the metagame, this will naturally make support units such as priests more valuable as a counter to physical-resistant wisps and phantasm warriors.

    Totally off-topic: BTW, I think popularity of many classes or playstyles can not correlate with their effectiveness. For example Warlord is generally thought to be not very strong. But I wouldn’t play it not because of it, but because I believe its concept is very boring. And contrary when I decided to play mostly Sorcerer I didn’t know how good School of Enchantment was, or how good its early game in MP was, but because I like the concept and it was the most close thing to AoW2 Wizards. Of course, I don’t suppose that everyone thinks like me, but still the point is unpopularity doesn’t surely mean that something is weak and needs “balancing”.

    It’s great that the devs have been so responsive and all but people really need to let the game breathe a little between posting one big list of proposed balance changes after another. I rather doubt anyone has fully explored the options provided in the last huge rebalance patch, to say nothing of the next huge incoming patch and new content.

    Exactly. Beta testers continuously make hints that huge changes are coming. In such conditions it is no very wise to propose other great changes.

    all the top players believe that the Sorcerer (and the Archdruid, although that is up to some debate) is in a class above the others at the moment.

    I don’t see it, actually. Not all. And even some who do think Sorc and AD are stronger are not eager to propose big changes.

    @ExNihil
    You mistake exhaustion for acquiesce, that’s all. Silence is not agreement.

    Exactly.

    There are a bunch of good ideas and content in there, but it is not a valuable or convenient thread. That thread is an abomination. It is precisely the thing that forums exist to prevent.

    Agreed. A brain storm is fine. But when most of its results are immediately considered the ultimate truth, well, it just becomes ugly.

    #112982

    Gloweye
    Member

    Guys, about threads giving ideas, number etc, as far as I think, these are there for the dev’s to look at, reply if they want(or dont reply), just to get some ideas. Its not as a post like “This is it gonna be, cause its best!”. Noone will know for certain what a change is gonna do. Sure, if you decide to double infantry HP(extreme example), you’re gonna see a lot more of them. But that is going to have people think about counters, and most of those wont work, but the working one is surely one only little people see coming, and those aren’t the same people for every change.

    And when you take opposing sides in an argument, you’ve both stated what you think best, and why, and you can’t convince each other, why would that be in any way wrong? Its not like you’re going to have to create this game, thats what the devs are for. THEY have to decide internally what the will or wont do, and with what they’ve given so far, they’ve earned my trust. Sure, I sometimes dont like thier decisions. I miss Dark Elves a bit(and NO, elf rogue is no dark elf. There is NO Life Stealing cavalry/shade. Even though the Incarnate s*cks…). I know there are people here missing halflings, frostlings, archons/highmen, undead and tigrans. TBH, i’d trade draconians for any of these(except maybe the last two…). But despite that fact that I don’t always agree with their decision, the game they’ve provided so far has earned them my trust, and I believe all of us should give them that. And if you do, why would you bother shouting at each other that your ideas are crap? If they really are, the dev’s aren’t going to integrate them anyway, so why worry?

    @EX
    they do have a point about using different threads for different topics. While i don’t agree to just “let it die already”, I do believe new threads should be made for new issues.

    And guys, if you can point be to dev pub in Delft, I’ll just go there. From September on, my study starts again, and I just so happen to study in Delft..

    (@dev’s: even if i know your pub and you guys dont appreciate me, just let me know, and i’ll leave you be, ok?)

    #112986

    Bouh
    Member

    nd if you do, why would you bother shouting at each other that your ideas are crap? If they really are, the dev’s aren’t going to integrate them anyway, so why worry?

    The thing is that it happened in many games already : peope loudly complain, and as their voices are louder than the others, devs are finaly convinced, or want to appease, whatever, the result is bad changes happening. Devs are only humans, they can be convinced.

    #112992

    chrysophylax páuperem wrote:
    all the top players believe that the Sorcerer (and the Archdruid, although that is up to some debate) is in a class above the others at the moment.
    I don’t see it, actually. Not all. And even some who do think Sorc and AD are stronger are not eager to propose big changes.

    I meant all the top mp players think the Sorcerer is objectively better than the other (non AD) classes (I have yet to hear from one who disagreed). Almost everyone (including a lot of sp players) felt that the warlord was one of the weakest/the weakest class, and that the theocrat’s support spam was kind of effective, but boring.

    Indeed, as to the “big changes”, most (if not all) of the beta people (myself included) don’t want to nerf the sorcerer, because it is really fun as it is, but boost the other classes.

    #113000

    Garresh
    Member

    @bouh

    Uh. Most of the complaints people repeat are legitimate. Otherwise, there’s a lot of disagreement and discourse between even the better players. The devs aren’t going to listen to us 100%, but by taking our opinions with a grain of salt, they might be able to get a better sense for where the community sits on certain topics.

    Regardless, you’re the *LAST* person to criticize. Nothing you’ve offered in any thread on balance has amounted to much more than “Leave it the way it is”, even in the face of obvious and serious imbalances. Furthermore, you tend to call out people as idiots for offering well researched and reasoned *OPINIONS* with strong mathematical justification. Many of them have several hundred hours in multiplayer, and have seen the same trends repeat themselves. And of those, many still have tried to develop counters or study the strategies in practice so they might better understand.

    Even in our 26 page thread on balance, nobody is really being rude. A lot of different perspectives get thrown around and debated with respect and a focus on actual proof. I can’t think of a single person on that thread who has behaved in a particularly hostile manner. Yeah maybe things get a bit heated but for the most part people listen and at least try to understand before disagreeing, which is all anyone can ask. Hell some of the people on that thread I have myself had words with in games online, but the forum isn’t the place for it and everyone here understands that. Regardless of our biases, everyone here wants this game to be better, and stifling others opinions or using personal attacks doesn’t make this game better.

    Now I’m usually happy to ignore the ill-reasoned noise you pass along as an argument, but frankly you’ve become increasingly arrogant and condescending. The more that the opinions of this forum contradict your own, the more hostile you become. If you cannot accept people disagreeing with you, even when they both provide evidence and do so respectfully, then I don’t see much benefit to your continued presence here. Good riddance as far as I’m concerned.

    #113001

    Garresh
    Member

    @BBB; Well it wasn’t that strange I felt it was directed at me. I am well aware that I keep repeating the same points, so that is why I thought you meant me. If I sounded a bit harsh or anything, it wasn’t my meaning to sound that way though.

    As to the point of general behaviour in debates; It is because of the internet. People can more easily write things in the safe environment of their own home, anonymously behind their screen acting all “Internet Tuff Guy” (or girl).

    I suggest everyone on this forum gets together in a pub in Delft, together with the Devs, and solve all the different problems/suggestions/discussions/debates with some beers and a free tour of the studio, with goody bags.

    Kind regards,

    Low

    First round is on me.

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