This forum is lost for balance

We’ve moved over to the paradox forums. Please come visit us there to discuss:
You can still read the collective wisdom - and lolz - of the community here, but posting is no longer possible.

Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions This forum is lost for balance

Tagged: ,

This topic contains 96 replies, has 37 voices, and was last updated by  Bouh 7 years, 9 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 31 through 60 (of 97 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #113005

    Ericridge
    Member

    Goblins can counter Sorceror pretty good.. because from what I’ve seen, Blight damage can absolutely CRUSH wisps, phantasm warriors, and any thing else that’s made entirely from mana. Sorcerors will be forced to use racial troops to stop getting annihilated by goblin spitters and swarmers.

    Also it was from this very forum that pikes from warhall stopped being completely useless and became useful against cavalry/flyers. I should know.. i seen it happen XD

    #113006

    Garresh
    Member

    Actually that’s somewhat true Eric. They’re not too bad early on vs sorcs. But they’re still not amazing, and once midgame rolls around chain lightning rips them to shreds. Basically you’re correct, but it’s still not enough in the grand scheme to help them. After all, it was never their combat potential that made them weak. It was their lack of ability to clear. Assuming equal numbers and income, a goblin in midgame actually has a great deal of military strength.

    #113007

    But they’re still not amazing, and once midgame rolls around chain lightning rips them to shreds.

    ah, chain lightning and goblins, so many good memories.

    #113009

    Draxynnic
    Member

    The game is unbalanced imho. Level 4′s are too overpowered regarding Level 1-2s and this is unbalancing. If you don’t have level 4′s only one enemy stack of level 4s can destroy your entire empire. Especially Goblins against Flame Cannons, Shrine of Smitings, Cannons, etc.

    This is something where there are multiple, differing opinions. A lot of us have been finding that the increase in power from climbing the tech tree does not actually match the increase in price. In most circumstances, two units of a given tier will beat a single unit of the next tier up. This means there are two general advantages to climbing the tech tree – one, that it brings in mechanics that aren’t available lower down (special movement modes such as flying, area of effect attacks, and so on), and two, that it allows for greater concentration of force.

    Now, area of effect attacks like breath weapons can alter the calculus, but honestly, if you’re being beaten by large stacks of tier 4s that you don’t have a counter to… you probably got outplayed, and would have been beaten just as easily if your opponent had just massed lower-tier units instead. That stack of tier 4s can generally be beaten by two stacks of tier 3s, if you don’t let your opponent jump on each seperately with their full force. If you’re letting the enemy get to the point where you can’t match their high tiers with numbers because they’ve got two or three stacks of them… then you’ve gotten how far into the game without teching yourself?

    Particularly with the research slowdown, I’ve fairly rarely hit the top tiers – there are some serious questions about whether it’s worth the investment even now, let alone if they got nerfed further.

    There are a bunch of good ideas and content in there, but it is not a valuable or convenient thread. That thread is an abomination. It is precisely the thing that forums exist to prevent.

    Agreed – I’ve given up on trying to keep up with that thread at all. It’s worth noting that the developers have noted a few times that they prefer separate threads for separate topics instead of one monster that encompasses everything.

    It’s quite illuminating that you immediately thought that was directed at you! It wasn’t about you specifically, although by your own admission you are “spamming” (I always find it crazy that a meat product became associated with junk mail and then repeating things…language is a funny old thing) but about general behaviour when it comes to debates, although a great deal of that is it being the internet.

    This probably has something to do with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE

    Well BloodyBattleBrain what about the warlords scout? Everyone is complaining he lacks a scout, because everyone believes a scout has to be a cheap-squishy-shitty unit, where I believe you have to think outside the box and use race-cavalry.

    Cavalry requires a bit more investment, though.

    As other people have said, this was initially the idea, along with a general concept of the warlord starting slow and getting powerful towards the mid- and endgame. The research slowdown and other game-slowing measures, however, have put off the point at which the warlord comes back in until it’s really too late for them.

    Monster hunters, initially, also make decent scouts – problem is, they’re generally not available until two research steps behind those of other classes.

    you actually could do this initially, but that became less possible after the research slowdown. I think monster hunters also came out early enough to be good scouts. It was actually the long game sp players, rather than mp or shorter game players, who called for that change.

    I’ve thought for a while that now that we have the slider, the increased costs for high-tier research should possibly be partially or entirely reverted.

    Totally off-topic: BTW, I think popularity of many classes or playstyles can not correlate with their effectiveness. For example Warlord is generally thought to be not very strong. But I wouldn’t play it not because of it, but because I believe its concept is very boring. And contrary when I decided to play mostly Sorcerer I didn’t know how good School of Enchantment was, or how good its early game in MP was, but because I like the concept and it was the most close thing to AoW2 Wizards. Of course, I don’t suppose that everyone thinks like me, but still the point is unpopularity doesn’t surely mean that something is weak and needs “balancing”.

    This is something I’ve been saying for a while. Just because something is popular doesn’t mean it’s necessarily too powerful – people choose options based on a variety of factors, not necessarily purely how powerful it is. (That said, there does seem to be reasonably objective evidence that sorcerer is at least near the top of the pile and warlord near the bottom, even putting aside player preference considerations.)

    #113021

    Jomungur
    Member

    I’m sorry, but the original post here is melodramatic. It’s not like the devs have endorsed any of the changes in ExNihil’s thread, which if a bit messy, still has a lot of interesting ideas (many of which I do not agree with). If you look at the ratio of changes that the devs have implemented in previous patches vs. the actual number of changes made, it’s pretty clear the devs are fairly conservative in making changes.

    Let’s look at some of the big changes the devs put balance-wise since the patches:

    1. Nerfing wisps by making static shield stun last 1 turn instead of 2 turns and reducing inflict stun attack to 8 from 9. Bouh, if I recall correctly, you opposed this change pretty strongly. But it was sorely needed and didn’t make a dent in sorcerer popularity. People still use wisps all the time quite effectively. But 2 turn stun was crazy on wisps.

    2. Making racial variants of class units more interesting by giving specific race bonuses to class units. Generally speaking, these were all very popular changes.

    3. Made pikemen more interesting and useful with the pike square ability. This was a positive balance change that made pikeman worth building over cavalry in certain situations.

    4. Increased infantry and cavalry hit points to make them more useful since no one was building them. Hard to criticize this change, as it was needed and you could argue still not enough. People still aren’t really building infantry over archers in most MP games, and people still prefer supports to cavalry in most situations.

    5. Made summon fantastic creature cheaper and better with ability to summon watcher. This change, which was not really requested in the forums, helped improve sorcerers which didn’t really need its. It was actually probably not a good change from a balance perspective. You have a 1/3 chance of getting a watcher, which is a really strong unit, and a 2/3 chance of getting a flying wyvern which isn’t bad. Since it costs the same, it’s better usually to simply summon fantastic creature and go for watchers than phantom warrior (even though phantom warriors are useful). But my point is it’s not as though forum goers were demanding this change; the devs made it on their own and I think it’s underpriced. Hopefully they increase the cost of this spell to differentiate it from phantom warrior more.

    6. Increased effects of morale and critical hits/fumble. People generally seemed to want morale to matter more. From a balance perspective, I haven’t heard complaints although I personally am not the biggest fan of this change (it makes the rich get richer since winning battles makes you morale increase).

    7. Capping mana.This hasn’t had an effect in multiplayer because in MP people are usually constantly spending mana and, warlords aside, usually don’t have a problem of too much mana. But this was a pretty big complaint in the forums from single players, so makes sense.

    8. Research/tech slowdown and slow down of racial tier 3 units. This was in response to people complaining about tier 4 units coming too fast. It changed balance substantially since tier 3 and 4 units were pushed back a lot, causing all sorts of consequences (like making inn rushes more powerful, making flyers less available for warlords who need them the most, making support units more powerful since stronger units come out later, etc. Although I wish it was more carefully thought out, I can understand why the devs did it because there was a ton of complaints about this one. So on this one you can blame the forums if you disagree with it. And the devs put in a slider to allow people to play a faster pace if they want.

    In sum, though, I don’t think your fears are justified based on the history of changes to the game.

    In terms of what they seem to be considering:

    1. Pushing support units to temple. This just seems to make a lot of sense. Support units are favored over cavalry right now, as they are generally more useful against a larger variety of units. This is partly metagame driven, given the popularity of sorcerers and support effectiveness against their summons, but it’s also to balance cost of investment in support units vs. cavalry (so they each require two buildings each).

    2. Making theocrat more interesting. Most people in MP agree that theocrats are heavily dependent on using priests with heal, and their class units are largely ignored. If the change this up and pull it off, who’s to complain?

    #113022

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    No one plays Goblins.

    No one plays underground.

    And there is the snag.

    A lot of so called balance suggestions are made with a very specific setting in mind which blatantly disregards “other” settings.
    Which is the problem.
    It makes no sense to try and balance a game like this for a specific and very small range of setup. You will end with eliminating all defining differences.

    #113046

    Perq
    Member

    There can not be stable meta-game without a serious multiplayer. And we have no serious multiplayer atm.

    Balance changes request based on AI games… sigh.

    #113065

    Gloweye
    Member

    SP games want balance to…It’ll likely just be a different balance.

    #113074

    k10forgotten
    Member

    There can not be stable meta-game without a serious multiplayer.

    A lot of so called balance suggestions are made with a very specific setting in mind which blatantly disregards “other” settings.

    And as someone else’s said: “You can’t let the meta-game influence your balance judgment”. Or something along those lines…

    Those guys hit the nail in the coffin, for me. You can’t have a serious multiplayer scene without any kind of consistency, specially in maps. Even if the map is random, it needs more balancing in which structures will be placed and where. Structures (and the map in general) can have a huge influence in the outcome of any match, and should be focused first. This is the kind of balance that will affect not only the “rushers”, or “people who only play against AI”… They will affect the flow of the game much more than “unit stat jerking”. As it currently is, I feel that a match can be decided by which structures you have near your cities and their distance to “barbarians” (I forgot their name).

    Maps aside, there MUST be a set of settings for multiplayer. I know you use one, and that’s perfect! But multiplayer, and SPECIALLY balancing, shouldn’t be considered by using only one type of map, let’s say “small land 2p”. In Age of Empires II HD, you have a competitive scene that uses “Arabia”, “Black Forest” and so on. In StarCraft II you have custom maps that are rotated over the “seasons”. By using a set of maps (or map settings), instead of just a single one, you’d have more variety in strategies and gameplay. The meta-game would explode. That’s why I think NOT using underground is a very big misstep. Things that are underpowered or not would be addressed more quickly by the devs.

    If I may be so brave, the best step in the direction of a healthy multiplayer scene is the creation of any kind of matchmaking/ELO System. It could be about the same as iCCup had for StarCraft: Brood War, for instance. This would negate the skill factor in any win. The devs would have a correct guess of what really is the problem and what isn’t. Maybe someone found a way to use unit X that this other guy hasn’t figured out how to defend. That doesn’t mean it can’t be defensible in the game’s current state.

    And an example I like very much about balancing is: when StarCraft II came out, Terrans had a unit that could cause extra damage. It wasn’t a problem in the most focused multiplayer mode (1v1), but it had become such a huge problem in team games that it had to be nerfed. So, stop this “but I don’t play like this” nonsense I see everywhere in this forum. It’s a game that everyone here plays, and there may actually be valid points. If you think your style is better, then make a strategy guide. Share your knowledge. Make this scene better.

    #113086

    Bob5
    Member

    There are a bunch of good ideas and content in there, but it is not a valuable or convenient thread. That thread is an abomination. It is precisely the thing that forums exist to prevent.

    Firstly, there is a balancing subforum where threads about balancing should be, so the thread shouldn’t exist on the discussion forum. Forums are designed to avoid the issue of multiple topics being discussed in the same exact thread so that better dialogues can happen. Continuing that thread in the current manner is only making it more difficult for the dialogue to continue outside of it.

    The other problem with the thread is that there are numerous actual discussion threads within that larger thread. Avoiding this issue is the entire point of creating multiple topics. And on top of that you continue to pull in new subjects from other threads that have already been beaten to death themselves. There is a reason the thread exists in the first place; go to that thread and join that discussion.

    I actually really agree with this. The countless topics that the thread switches between make it tough to keep track of what is being said on various subjects (especially since it is so ridiculously big). The majority of topics in one thread also swamps discussion of ideas.

    I admit the Warlord Line-of-Sight increase on Watchtowers was not well thought out by me, I only thought of it for a few minutes before posting it, but most of the warlord scout posts were of the kind “Warlord is bad because it doesn’t have a spammable early scout unit, so can’t see others coming and can’t pick up treasure as fast, so it needs a scout”. I was mainly trying to steer the discussion into a different direction from the simple ‘homogenising’ idea of adding a similar scout to the ones others already had, perhaps inspiring others to spike posts like ‘well, that watchtower idea wouldn’t work in that way because of XXX, but if you changed it into YYY, it might actually work’.

    I had a similar intention on my node serpent idea of replacing the 6 physical melee damage on the node serpent with 3 frost and 3 fire damage, an idea that is buried in that thread somewhere but that never really got a chance to really be discussed or developed into a better idea. Of course the node serpent can be made more viable by slightly increasing its stats, but it’d still be a bland unit (in my opinion at least), offering little in the way of uniqueness that the Sorcerer doesn’t already have plenty of (lightning damage, floating, phasing, lighting protection). In a way, I was trying to propose some more diversification between the sorcerer units.

    #113153

    Ricminator
    Member

    @bob5

    I think your LoS increase idea is a great post. It was well written and could have lead to an interesting discussion as you intended. It got lost among the others and that was the bad thing of that tread.

    So don’t hesitate to post more of your idea’s.

    #158289

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Aw, not even an English spam message with unintentionally amusing sentence combinations. 🙁

    #158299

    Kaiosama TLJ
    Member

    Aw, not even an English spam message with unintentionally amusing sentence combinations. :(

    I saw a spam in Japanese in this forum once, was curious to know what the hell they were advertising thought.

    #158302

    Charlatan
    Member

    @bouh

    I’m sorry to hear you lost hope, really, but without offense…

    …try to talk about any balance/gameplay suggestions in the forums of other games, then come back here and think again if people here are REALLY that bad.

    #158306

    Yelok
    Member

    The post has been necroed Charlatan, he´s actually a tester.

    However, it is interesting ro read this again after 5 months.

    #158307

    Kaiosama TLJ
    Member

    @charlatan

    This thread is old, it only showed up again because of a spam bot.

    Although that’s not saying much. Bouh still stayed on this forum after this thread, but he didn’t changed unfortunately.

    Thing is, he is extremely agressive to people when balance was brought up and he attacked verbally anyone that pointed out a balance issue even thought valid arguments were brought up. Just take a depper look at his post history and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

    This is not a personal attack against him, I’m just stating the reputation he brought to himself. And the spam bot only served to reinforce it.

    The post has been necroed Charlatan, he´s actually a tester.

    Bouh is not one of the beta testers IIRC.

    #158308

    Stormwind
    Member

    I’ve written many posts about Attawnestalty’s mudslinging Russian remonstrations. For example: “какой фильм тогда мне смотреть.” Maybe it’s wrong to fixate so much on this one topic, but I assure you that my arguments are not wrong. In the rest of this post, I will use history and science (in the Hegelian sense) to prove that we must use every tool available to us to bring Attawnestalty to justice. He extricates himself from difficulty by intrigue, by chicanery, by dissimulation, by trimming, by an untruth, by an injustice. It is probably safe to assume that until we tell you a little bit about him and his infelicific ventures we can’t progress to a world where all of us are safe, happy, and respected. Okay, that’s a slight exaggeration, but you get the drift. While I aver that Attawnestalty has every right to his bad-tempered opinions, his theories feed on ressentiment of inferiors towards their superiors. If you don’t believe me, see for yourself.

    If I were to compile a list of Attawnestalty’s forays into espionage, sabotage, and subversion, it would fill an entire page and perhaps even run over onto the following one. Such a list would surely make every sane person who has passed the age of six realize that Attawnestalty is a tribute to our collective gullibility. Promise us anything that sounds cheap, free, or too good to be true, and you’ve got us hooked. That’s why so many people believe Attawnestalty when he says that the bogeyman is going to get us if we don’t agree to his demands. The reality, in contrast, is that the baneful nature of his arguments is not just a rumor. It is a fact to which I can testify.

    If my own experience has taught me anything, it’s that it’s quite a feat of hypocrisy for Attawnestalty to deny he wants to make serious dialogue difficult or impossible after so recently doing exactly that. Yes, I could add that he has let his lofty-yet-callow views cloud his sense of taste and reality, but I wanted to keep my message simple and direct. I didn’t want to distract you from the main thrust of my message, which is that just the other day, some of Attawnestalty’s meddlesome torchbearers forced a prospectus into my hands as I walked past. The prospectus described Attawnestalty’s blueprint for a world in which sticky-fingered mischievous-types are free to crush people to the earth and then claim the right to trample on them forever because they are prostrate. As I dropped the prospectus onto an overflowing wastebasket I reflected upon the way that we must condemn Attawnestalty’s criminal ineptitude. I realize we cannot easily accomplish that in an environment grossly shaped by the insidious and obtrusive bias that his half-measures inject into our society. That’s why I like to say that Attawnestalty is too puerile to read the writing on the wall. This writing warns that the basal lie that underlies all of his self-centered, unrealistic maneuvers is that his gibes are intelligent, commonsensical, and entirely consonant with the views of ordinary people. Translation: This is the best of all possible worlds and that Attawnestalty is the best of all possible people. I doubt you need any help from me to identify the supreme idiocy of those views, but you should nevertheless be aware that we are at war. Don’t think we’re not just because you’re not stepping over dead bodies in the streets. We’re at war with Attawnestalty’s spineless epigrams. We’re at war with his untoward ipse dixits. And we’re at war with his larcenous “compromises”. As in any war, we ought to be aware of the fact that Attawnestalty plans to muster enough force to make things worse. The result will be an amalgam of doolally dogmatism and pot-valiant frotteurism, if such a monster can be imagined. I have just enough stomach left to address one last instance of Attawnestalty’s vindictive imbecility: Attawnestalty sincerely believes that he has suffered so much that whatever offenses he commits are legitimate attempts to recapture dignity, obtain justice, or exact revenge.

    #158310

    Kaiosama TLJ
    Member

    Stormwind, trolling is only valid when you are trolling a real person. A spam bot doensn’t care, at all.

    #158311

    Yelok
    Member

    Are you sure Kaiosama?

    Perhaps TS is not very clear when revealing testers, but if you look his profile, you can notice about his access to the hidden forum (beta forum), or perhaps I´m just paranoid.

    #158314

    Kaiosama TLJ
    Member

    Are you sure Kaiosama?

    Perhaps TS is not very clear when revealing testers, but if you look his profile, you can notice about his access to the hidden forum (beta forum), or perhaps I´m just paranoid.

    I joined this forum some weeks before this game was officially released (I pre-ordered on Steam), and I remember that the first thread I posted was one the betas were answering questions about the game. I saw many “faces” there, even some that don’t appear as much nowadays, but Bouh was not among them. He joined the forum 1 or 2 months after the release if I’m not mistaken, but even so I don’t recall any of the other betas (or anyone for that matter) mentioning him being part of the team.

    Actually, they mention all the betas on the credits that ocassionaly rolls at the game’s menu. I will take a closer look to confirm it. (or maybe we could ask BBB if he’s not occupied eating that Doritos :-D)

    #158316

    Charlatan
    Member

    Wops! Just had gotten up :p

    #158317

    Yelok
    Member

    Actually devs still sent beta invitations to some players, so, I think, they invited more people some time ago.

    This could be irrelevant, but it could be useful to have a pinned post with a list of devs and testers.

    I remember at least >15–<20 testers.

    #158330

    Gloweye
    Member

    I joined this forum some weeks before this game was officially released (I pre-ordered on Steam), and I remember that the first thread I posted was one the betas were answering questions about the game. I saw many “faces” there, even some that don’t appear as much nowadays, but Bouh was not among them. He joined the forum 1 or 2 months after the release if I’m not mistaken, but even so I don’t recall any of the other betas (or anyone for that matter) mentioning him being part of the team.

    Actually, they mention all the betas on the credits that ocassionaly rolls at the game’s menu. I will take a closer look to confirm it. (or maybe we could ask BBB if he’s not occupied eating that Doritos )

    There have been more testers invited since then. Also, he’s IMO become a lot more civil since this thread started, and I can understand the use of someone who looks at things in a different way in a testing team.

    #158332

    I don’t get it. What’s been streamlined since this game’s release? Who, even, has been asking for streamlining?

    All I see is more content, more diversity, a bigger game, and still more people saying we need more units, more races, more classes, more spells, etc.

    #158425

    Dr_K
    Member

    I don’t get it. What’s been streamlined since this game’s release? Who, even, has been asking for streamlining?

    This thread was made in reaction to the fiery death that ExNihil’s original monster balance thread had last August. So not much was actually done to the game, but people’s tempers were still hot from so much “discussion” of balancing the game. And some suggestions here and there could have been considered ‘streamlining’, more in the symmetrical balance aspect.

    All I see is more content, more diversity, a bigger game, and still more people saying we need more units, more races, more classes, more spells, etc.

    Triumph’s been very good about keeping asymmetrical balance while adding even more content. At that point in time, a lot of active people were concerned with balance of the game, but the number of topics posted has since dwindled.

    #158440

    Thariorn
    Member

    Actually, they mention all the betas on the credits that ocassionaly rolls at the game’s menu. I will take a closer look to confirm it. (or maybe we could ask BBB if he’s not occupied eating that Doritos )

    I won’t reveal any testers (As revealing being in the beta may or may not come with risks concernincg NDA and stuff…. and it’s kinda tehir own thing to “out” them [lol]), but we sure have some more people in this 3rd beta than in the 1st 😉
    I’m not sure whether the beta-testers from GR got added to the credits too, we got a call if we want to be in the credits shortly before release, so not even all the testers of the 1st beta are in there 🙂

    #158454

    Bouh
    Member

    he attacked verbally anyone that pointed out a balance issue even thought valid arguments were brought up.

    I don’t attack anyone. Moderators send you warnings when you do this.

    The problem is that people takes their ideas personaly, and feel attacked when I attack their ideas. This is not my fault. And no, I will not be kind to bad ideas ; they only deserve despise. Ideas don’t deserve respect BTW, they are ideas, some are better than others, the best need to be spread, and the worst despised.

    And the game has indeed been streamlined since the begining, even if not that much.

    #158466

    And the game has indeed been streamlined since the begining, even if not that much.

    How? When?

    #158512

    (or maybe we could ask BBB if he’s not occupied eating that Doritos

    Well as people kept insisting…

    Bearing in mind an actual doritos hat (i.e. a hot made out of doritos) is actually not possible, the following is but a poor imitation of the beauty made famous here (always funnier in German…)

    Step 1: put 2 bits of bread together

    Step 2: Put some cheese in the middle

    Step 3:

    Step 4: put some cheese on the top

    Step 5: add some doritos

    Step 6: more cheese

    Step 7: melt it all

    Step 8: Place on head (it is hot!)

    Step 9: Eat

    Surprisingly tasty, but left me thirsty and bloated.

    #158550

    Stormwind
    Member

    My dorito hat recipe:

    1. Buy Doritos
    2. Fashion them into a hat
    3. ?????
    4. Profit and retire rich.

    I just need to work on step 3.

Viewing 30 posts - 31 through 60 (of 97 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.