Tier 4 Racial Units

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Tier 4 Racial Units

This topic contains 115 replies, has 28 voices, and was last updated by  Jolly Joker 6 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #171206

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    I think the main argument against racial T4’s is not so much lore, though I think it would be kind of hard to have believable T4’s for every race, it’s balance:

    – There are so many reasons a racial T4 can screw with balance. For starters, Theocrat upgrades make some units Devout, Poison Mastery targets certain unit types and don’t get me started on the possibility of School of Enchantment on T4’s, etc (Yes I’m aware High Elf Manticore Riders can Stun, but those are class bound and got a damage penalty, you can’t give a damage penalty to a unit just cause someone somewhere might combine them with a Sorcerer)… Explorer might have an impact if you decide to make a walking Irregular T4.

    – Mystical City Upgrades like the Slaughter Pits and Bound Souls could target T4’s, which is not the case now, right now basically the good Mystical City Upgrades cannot target T4’s in a game-changing way. Shrines and Juggernauts get the Flowrock stuff, the summons can turn into a lesser elemental and Manticore Riders could get free movement, huzzah!

    – If the T4’s are production based, this is a clear advantage for mana classes. No matter how high up the building chain they’re unlocked.

    – You’d be able to diversify your T4’s. If there would be a T4 with elemental damage, the power relations between a Rogue and Warlord are screwed. In any case this would make race-class combinations more important, but it would also mean convergence into more ideal combinations which would be boring.

    #171286

    Yelok
    Member

    I have been busy recently, however, I keep reading this forum.

    We are at the Age of Speculation.

    @Jolly Joker

    Do you come from the future?
    If that´s the case, I think you are saving us from a racial T4 apocalypse, thank you bud.

    If that´s not the case, then I suppose you are the special one and you got mod tools before us and you are preventing us from useless time wasted for racial T4 balancing and modding, thank you again bud.

    If that´s not the case, hell, I still don´t understand the hate for racial T4. because you talk like you know something that we don´t.

    @On

    Every time I bought a game from TS, I definitely spent my money wise. However, in AoW3 case, I will remember TS for being so passive and conservative in some aspects of the game and marketing.

    TS did a great damage to the game and the forum by not releasing the mod tools with the original version of the game (March 31th, 2014). Due that, this forum has been the House of Speculation, this thread is the perfect example of that, every time an user creates a post talking about racial T4´s, you will see the same users saying the same arguments with the same result.

    Then, racial T4´s ideas will get punished by conservative and/or closed minded users (I will leave this blank space for a spicy comment from Picard ___________________), and finally, devs mostly, will ignore racial T4´s ideas, because like Imissleprechauns said, most of the against arguments come from loudy or popular users (and again, I will leave a blank space, just in case Picard wanna talk about Illuminatis ___________________).

    As result, many ideas with potential said in this forum are just discarded because if you wanna talk about a change to the game you only have that, a discussion in the forum, which often seems to be not productive.

    I respect the perspectives of the users who are against racial T4´s, if they wanna play that style, it´s ok, however, when some of them try to impose their opinions over the rest, then, things are not good. Nobody here knows the truth and that´s why mod tools are really necessary, because if you wanna propose something, you don´t have to deal with an unproductive speculation discussion.

    I think, TS will release mod tools when they finish the game, which is very sad, because with mod tools you can demostrate to TS and the community that some things are possible and they can be implemented oficially, but, if they release them when the game is finished, then, we will lose the chance to see a better AoW3 game, and yes, I said better, because I´m sure, there are many users around with good ideas waiting to be explored and tested. No matter the name of the user, this is not about users or ego wars, this is about ideas.

    Because that, we are at the Age of Speculation my friends.

    #171303

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Jesus, that’s what I call a polemic post. Sheer rhetoric. No content. 🙁

    #171315

    Althea
    Member

    Although i’m against racial T4, i’m not against new units idea.

    But to those who want racial T4 and to those who don’t want it, i think there is some questions that we really need to ask ourselves first, why we want racial T4, for what sake?

    Do we want racial T4 for the sake of nostalgia from previous AoW?
    or
    Do we want racial T4 for balance purpose?
    or
    Do we want racial T4 just for the sake of variety?
    or
    Will the racial T4 have any gameplay purpose aside from nostalgia?

    Imo, if it’s just for the sake of nostalgia, i’m totally against it. The problem is most of you that want racial T4 seems to want it mostly for nostalgia sake.

    It seems that they serve no purpose beside that according to most argument from pro racial T4.

    The balance of the game can take a hit if it’s only for nostalgia and variety sake.

    In case of balance, i believe at first, we should state our definiton of balance.

    For me, i define balance as not everything are symmetrically equal, more of all units are used in similar frequency, meaning all of them have purpose and role in many combinations of units in most kind of army, thus no units are rarely used.

    If it’s for balance sake, many players in this forum conclude that the game is already balanced enough, that the addition of racial T4 are not needed at all.

    For the sake of units with purpose, the addition of racial T4 serve no purpose at all, beside variety and nostalgia.

    Thus, i agree with JJ, Dagoth Ur, and others who are against racial T4.

    Also, there are actually many players who are against the idea, the reason they stay silent in recent threads which discuss about racial T4 is because they don’t want to repeat their words over and over just because newcomers in this forum are too lazy to use search function and decide to just create a thread with the very same topic as threads which already existed long ago.

    If you want new units who have purpose, the dev always adds new units in every expansion up until the next one at least, they even add new T4 (as summons/specialization units), they even introduce racial governance, all this adds many more variety, and these variety have purpose, not just for the sake of variety and nostalgia.

    The dev even adds new dwellings.

    It doesn’t make sense that after all that is going to be added, that one want racial T4 for the sake of having new units with purpose, to me those that want racial T4 are just nostalgic to the previous AoW. I admit i never played any other AoW games beside this one, so i don’t have that nostalgic feeling. But adding new units just for the sake of nostalgia without thinking about balance and the unit purpose and role in the possible new combinations of army is just plain wrong imo.

    #171324

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    I think I could live with racial T4’s being introduced via the governance system as a final upgrade though, reasons being that: you can’t rush them that easily, it’s only one race, there’s no pressure to make up a new T4 for every race (upgrades can differ) thus no differentiating the T4’s, thus less chance of imbalance. Other races would probably get upgrades that benefit the current army which is more of a direct buff so there’s an argument in favor of T4’s there.

    And Yelok, you’re accusing those that oppose this idea of not contributing to the discussion but I see very little arguments from your end, you’re not even dismissing the arguments that we provide “every time again”. In fact, your whole post consists of anecdotes and calling those that oppose the idea a bunch of conservatives and your argument seems to be that we are wrong because we oppose, because you seem to know you’re right.
    And we’re not “trying to impose” our views, we’re providing arguments to the discussion, in the end it’s the developers that decide what goes in and what does not.

    #171360

    Yelok
    Member

    @Dagoth Ur

    I posted arguments in the past, but they are not short and I don´t want to sound repetitive, however, if you want to read them, you can check my comments in that thread http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/your-opinions-about-implementation-of-tier-4-racial-units/.

    My previous comment has the root of the problem: Mod Tools. Can you imagine how many GD threads could not exist if we have mod tools since the original release?
    I´m sure, 30%-50% at least.

    If you read the recent threads about racial T4´s, you can notice they are viable in many ways, but they are not taken seriously because there is no way of testing them. Then, the discussion turns infertile and ideas got discarded and that´s because all ends being pure speculation.

    As result, every argument we can argue defending racial T4´s becomes a little irrelevant and ignored because we don´t have any way to prove it.

    I gotta repeat, I don´t see racial T4´s as a priority thing to add, however, I joined the discussion because I found against arguments weak and some of them sounds more like a caprice than a real argument.

    While nostalgia is a really powerful factor, it´s not only about it, I still think, racial T4´s could add a strategic and tactic valor without being repetitive or without lose variety in the game.

    And no, I dont know the truth about AoW3, I´m not a sage, but I still think, there are many conservative people around this forum, and that is a stone in the way for a more evolved AoW3.

    #171379

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I’m all for Mod Tools as well.

    #171384

    Epaminondas
    Member

    @Dagoth Ur

    I posted arguments in the past, but they are not short and I don´t want to sound repetitive, however, if you want to read them, you can check my comments in that thread http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/your-opinions-about-implementation-of-tier-4-racial-units/.

    My previous comment has the root of the problem: Mod Tools. Can you imagine how many GD threads could not exist if we have mod tools since the original release?<br>
    I´m sure, 30%-50% at least.

    If you read the recent threads about racial T4´s, you can notice they are viable in many ways, but they are not taken seriously because there is no way of testing them. Then, the discuss turns infertile and ideas got discarded and that´s because all ends being pure speculation.

    As result, every argument we can argue defending racial T4´s becomes a little irrelevant and ignored because we don´t have any way to prove it.

    I gotta repeat, I don´t see racial T4´s as a priority thing to add, however, I joined the discussion because I found against arguments weak and some of them sounds more like a caprice than a real argument.

    While nostalgia is a really powerful factor, it´s not only about it, I still think, racial T4´s could add a strategic and tactic valor without being repetitive or without lose variety in the game.

    And no, I´m dont know the truth about AoW3, I´m not a sage, but I still think, there are many conservative people around this forum, and that is a stone in the way for a more evolved AoW3.

    I am a huge advocate for an immediate release of mod tools, but I don’t see how mod tools really will help in this matter. To begin with, the desirability of racial T4s will always in some respects be a non-demonstrative or non-scientific matter: For instance, how would mod tools prove that racial T4s will not mess up the lore? Likewise, whose mod will be determinative? Individual mods will rarely be played by enough people to yield a reasonable consensus – much less proof.

    There are many arguments for mod tools: But proving whether racial T4 will work or not is not one of them.

    Edit: I do agree with you that I see the release of mod tools as one of the few areas where the devs and the overwhelming majority of player-base at complete loggerheads, and that I do not see it happening till well after TS is finished with the game. In this sense, I am really conflicted. On the one hand, I think the release of mod tools would be the single greatest improvement to the game, and that I cannot get the full enjoyment out of it until I have that opportunity to manipulate the game parameters to my liking. On the other hand, I obviously do not want the game to be done until several more expansions. So either way I lose.

    #171410

    Gyor
    Member

    A Succubus with bound souls and gold medal and from what I here Dark Pact is practical a T4.

    #171415

    Mod tools would be amazing, and waiting until the game isn’t going to sell any more copies to release them is a huge lost opportunity. Decent mods are an enormous selling point. People can and will buy games just for specific mods. Whole games, heck whole companies, have emerged from good mods. Not to mention that it means a significant potential for free development when notable community content is created.

    #171495

    Althea
    Member

    Indeed.

    The thing about racial T4 is, i think there are two major sides of players (they are the customers), those who want it and those who don’t.

    Yelok is right in one point, that no side can’t enforce opinion on other side, this racial T4 is too much of personal preference imo.

    As such it can’t be made official, because making it official mean siding with one side, if the dev satisfy one side, other side will be totally upset. That’s not a good way to do business nowadays.

    The best course of action is indeed by giving mod tools, with it, both sides are satisfied, those who want racial T4 can certainly make their dream come true with the mod, whilst those who doesn’t want it can just play the non modded version, there are more possibility of course, but the point is this action satisfy both type of customers.

    #171509

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    The Devs have already taken a side, from day 1: they didn’t include racial T4s. They also gave just 1 T3.
    If you look at the racial units, you can see that you get 6 different units (Irreg, Inf Arc, Sup, Pike, Cav), 4 T1, 2 T2 plus assorted machines – plus a BONUS T3 which you have to build something expensive to get, but which isn’t too difficult to unlock.

    Clearly, RACIAL T4s have not been on their agenda – and they obviously had good reason for it, because otherwise they would have been either part of the original game or there would be plans for a DLC.

    Secondly – think about what HAS happened, when the game was out: people complained about T4 dominance (they were considered too good). So what has happened is, that T3 and T4 have been made more expensive and T1 and T2 stronger.

    Lastly, the number of units per stacks has been reduced: 25% less units.

    You definitely do NOT have to posess supernatural powers to see what quite obviously the devs have seen: that the current scope of the game leaves no room for an additional racial T4.

    You must not forget that developing a better technology costs something on one hand and makes something else obsolete on the other: if a town acquires the ability to produce something, then it must be worth it to produce that something, and if you do, something else isn’t produced.

    Lastly and most importantI don’t think, anyone says, racial T4s (or alternative T3s) are GNERALLY impossible. It’s just that the game would need a MAJOR overhaul to make them work in a way that they were an addition on one hand, but left space for everything else as well. THAT – the major overhaul necessary, plus, you have to make the T4s, test them and so on – the effort necessary to make them a worthwhile addition without destroying the Class importance would be a major job.

    With so much more obvious things to do, it simply makes no sense. Or has made no sense.

    Sure, another addon – Return of the Legendary Beasts – or something might bring them and completely change the game pace.
    The question, though, would simply be: WHY? Because you DO need supernatural powers to conclude that the game would be better with them, since I think, it would be better to add a Shadowdemon Class and the Syrons, for example.

    The bottom lineIn my opinion, Triumph has proven a golden hand with the game. They obviously do NOT need our advice or something – but they are smart enough to read everything, and confident enough to try and create things they like suggested by the community. I TRUST their judgement 100%, and I think they absolutely know what they are doing.
    This game has started on a very high standard, and after the expansion and the patch it will be soaring – WITHOUT racial T4s. It makes sense to assume that this is BECAUSE there are no racial T4s, not IN SPITE OF. Then look at something basically everyone agreed that something could be done about it: for example, that racial DIVERSITY, and what Triumph is now doing to change that: can you really say that there would be a real NEED for a racial T4, like there was need for more racial diversity?

    Last question: why do I write so intensely AGAINST racial T4?

    The answer is this. I have a lot of experience in computer gaming, and if you have a game that is really FUN, especially when it’s part of a brand, invariably two things happen: 1) People want MORE; 2) People start reminiscing about things that WERE, but have been scraped for the new one. While that is understandable, it can also be dangerous sometimes, because you don’t make a game necessarily better by blowing it up. It should be clear that it’s not easy to do it right – because who does, nowadays? 20 years ago, basically ALL games had something going for them; now? Well…

    So I would like people to keep calm – maybe even ASK the Devs:

    Question to the DevsWhat is your stance with regard to racial T4s? Did you have good reason to exclude them? Are there plans to include them? If not, is there a real stopper why they shouldn’t appear?

    #171708

    Althea
    Member

    If i’m the dev, i’d not give racial T4, instead i’ll give them mod tools and let them create their own T4 for those who are rooting for it. Seems to me that’s the wisest decision.

    #171718

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Exactly.

    #171768

    Wintermoore
    Member

    I really love the battle between T1 to T3 units. Once the AI start stacking T4s it get too over for me.

    #171830

    Yelok
    Member

    @althea

    No offence, but if you haven´t played previous AoW games, then, your arguments lose validation, because you don´t know the value of racial T4´s and their precedents, and better yet you haven´t tested them.

    While your reasoning is often equable in this forum, this time, you are in a very unfavorable position.

    Don´t get me wrong, you are free to post your opinions, but if you are trying to be serious, you have to know about the matter.

    @althea and Jolly Joker

    I repeat the question, do you come from the future?
    Did you see a game ruined by racial T4´s?
    Did you see the balance completely destroyed by racial T4´s?
    I really have to ask you this, because you talk like you do.

    I think, some users in this forum (included you two), overrate the “balance” term. Balance is a hypothetical state, you cannot reach the balance just by speculating, you have more chances to reach that state by testing, of course, there is a speculating job behind the balance, but most of the importance resides in the practice and test.

    Also, the way you reason is very simple and traditional -conservative-, because it seems you only think about the actual version of the game, you don´t seem to explore alternative ways and that´s a great obstacle when we talk about innovation or ideas.

    You think in the problems we will have if they put racial T4´s with the current version. And I have to admit it, indeed, if we try to make racial T4´s with the current version of the game, we could be forcing them to fit in a wrong place and that could carry more problems than solutions.

    However, like I said before, you only see that, but what happens when you try to view this issue from another angle?

    @On

    I see 6 problems with racial T4´s:

    * Game Pacing: This game is so damn fast, even if you play it with the slowest settings, you can face T4´s at turn 15-20, and that can break games. This game needs an alternative option for a more slow pacing.

    * Resources: They seem to be not enough accurate for certain things.

    * Access: Like I said, the game pacing is very fast and it´s not fair to have dwelling T4´s at turn 15-20. Is really easy to access to T4´s with standard resources/dwellings.

    * Spam: That´s an AI problem and resource/pacing/access problem too.

    * Balance: Just temporal, after some weeks they will be balanced.

    * Strategic and Tactic Factor: This is a challenge, but after a joint effort between devs and community, this could be easily done.

    What happens if TS decides to introduce a “Merit” System?

    We already have 3 resources: Mana, Gold and Knowledge. I propose a fourth resource called “Merits”.

    You can obtain Merits by:

    – Battles (if you win, you will get more Merits)
    – Racial Gobernance
    – Vassals
    – Empire Management
    – Structures

    You can use Merits for:

    – Produce/Cast Units
    – Cast Spells (City Quake, Forge Blast, Global TVII, etc)
    – Construct Buildings

    Every unit in the game will require Merits and Gold/Mana, the Merit quantity will vary depending the power/strategic/tactic value of the unit.

    With a Merit resource we attack 5 problems of the game:

    * Game Pacing
    * Unit Access
    * Technology Access
    * Unit Spam
    * Strategic/Tactic Factor

    With a Merit system, we can have racial T4´s and more. Perhaps I explain better the Merit system in a new thread further.

    As you can see, if you explore alternative ways, you can “discover” interesting solutions.

    #171838

    Something not addressed otherwise here, and that concerns the devs, is one of complexity. Every system you add to the game not only has to be internally balanced, weighted, worked out with the new systems, etc, but also learned by the players. As there is a wide range of skill and experience among them, everything can’t be devoted to getting the most fascinating, interactive, lore and mechanically appropriate thing: you’ve also got to make sure that new people can jump in at any moment.

    I mean, look at the AOW III wiki: its got tons and tons and tons of concepts, lore, units, stats, and other things you need to know just to get a basic handle on how to play the game well in single player (where the AI is not as challenging as a good human opponent).

    The class research ladder has been one of those anchor systems from the start: in general, your weaker units are earlier, and your stronger units are later. You progress to unlock them through research. There are exceptions from quests, dwellings, specializations, and lucky spell finds, but the rule generally holds.

    Racial T-4’s, on the other hand, would be a massive change to that core system: there would be a way to play the game in a “classless” manner, determined almost entirely by starting race. Not only would that be against the initial design of the game, since they wanted to move away from the Elves are always Elves and Orcs are Orcs things to some extent, but would also require players to learn what amounts to a whole new game.

    actually, probably like 3 or 4 games. Race Governance is itself supremely complicated, and is probably about the limit of what you can add to the game.

    #171855

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Well, the thing is, Yelok, that the game as it is WORKS. So I don’t want or need a different game, ergo, all additions that involve a major change of the game are uncalled for. There is just no good reason to change the game in order to introduce something – that isn’t missing.

    Of course, with Mods…

    #171901

    Yelok
    Member

    @Jolly Joker

    I never said “AoW3 is a failed game”, what I´m saying is “AoW3 is a great game, but it´s not very efficient, it has many potential to go”.

    I made the Merit system some months ago, and I didn´t made it because racial T4´s, I made it because the game needs a pause in it´s pacing.

    I don´t want to talk with you about this matter anymore, because you don´t wanna talk, you want to impose your opinion over the rest, at least, Althea tries to talk in a civil way, but you don´t.

    @On

    I think, the reason behind racial T4´s petition, is a mixture between nostalgia, folklore, lore and variety.

    If we watch the evolution of the game since 1 until 3, we will notice that AoW3 is the most mature and evolved version of the series, you can see more “realistic” aspects in AoW3 than the previous games. At previous AoW games, you can see more fantasy elements over realistic ones, while at AoW3, that “balance” changes with more realistic elements, however, AoW3 has more fantasy over realistic yet.

    Let´s remember a key word here: Fantasy.

    We lost fantasy flavour with AoW3, if we lost that, then, we lost immersion too. We lost many iconic stuff from the previous games (units, magic, lore). Sometimes, when I´m playing I think “Am I playing an Age of Wonders game?”.

    For that reason, I think, people who wanna racial T4´s, they really wanna ask for having that iconic stuff from previous games, no matter if they come back as racial T4´s, dwelling T4´s, class T4´s or whatever else, they are just asking for that iconic stuff back.

    While I understand, some of that fantasy factor lost is justified by lore, you can´t just wipe out those AoW folklore elements which gave you the success that AoW got today in order to make a more mature game.

    We can see often threads like “We want racial T4´s”, “We want more racial T3´s”, “We want more magic”, etc etc etc, but I think that behind of most of that stuff there is a petition like this: “Bring us back those iconic elements from previous games adapted to AoW3 standards”.

    Of course, that´s only my humble opinion.

    #171905

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Dude, there is not ONE thing in your posts that points to racial T4s in any way. Except for a lot of rhetoric and polemic your only REAL point is, that it’s possible to get T4s VERY early via dwellings.
    If THAT is the whole problem, you can solve it pretty easily by adjusting the quests and the guards, making things more difficult. No need to change the whole game and introduce a new “resource”.

    That leaves “people want their iconic stuff back” or some such – but people always want EVERYthing back, and it’s in the eye of the beholder what is “iconic”. It’s pretty ironic, that you call people “conservative” in your polemics – when in reality “people wanting their beloved stuff back” is the most conservative thing there is.

    “We” lost nothing in AoW III – “you”, maybe. But that’s what Mod Tools for.

    #171918

    Eji1700
    Member

    T4’s should be more than possible from a design and balance standpoint, and anyone calming otherwise is out of their minds. There’s a whole bunch of ways they could implement, balance, and control them and there’s PLENTY of unexplored game design space left for them to mess with, especially considering some of the stuff the expansion is bringing.

    Do they NEED to do them, no, but honestly watching members hand wave away perfectly legitimate arguments is getting old. There is nothing inherently broken about the concept as long as it’s done right, and I have faith that the team would do so having already learned about some of the issues of higher tier units (likely making them extremely specialized would be a good thing, but there’s a ton of ways they could do it.)

    #171934

    Yelok
    Member

    @Jolly Joker

    Well, I know this is a complete waste of time, but I will tell you this anyway.

    * The only one who is trying to start a polemic discussion here, are you bud, I don´t see chrys, Althea or Dagoth being affected by my comments, except you.

    * You are the great enemy of this discussion, because every time an user wanna talk seriously about this matter, you jump in with an aggressive mode and you don´t hear them, you just want to impose your opinion, no matter how legitimate is the argument, you will always go against it.

    * God´s Sake!! Understand what you read!

    * Take it easy bud, I heard yoga is good for those purposes.

    @On

    No more to say, agree with Eji1700.

    #171945

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Look, this discussion is a year old, and there have been no points made by the people who are in favor of racial T4s. They assure, “it should be possible”, “there can’t be anything wrong with it”, “they are cool” – but that’s it.
    You hear, “no, they are not necessary, but…”

    So from that, we all agree that they would be ICING ON THE CAKE – at best, that is.

    The question is, whether racial T4s would have repercussions for the existing system, and over the last year, when this topic has surfaced, a lot of people have made a couple of reasonable points why this would undermine the current Class system, and nothing has been said to invalidate those points – which is why YOUR posts are long rhetoric treatises, because you do not actually invalidate ANY of those points made.

    Which is the reason why I do not react with calmness – I simply point to that fact. I understand, that you don’t like that; but what I don’t like are posts that claim a lot and make a lot of noise and fog, because they have an agenda they can’t actually backup with anything solid.

    I mean, ask yourself the question: if you really HAVE a point and “no one can foresee the effect of something”, why, then do you demand T4s and not MOD TOOLS, because mod tools would allow you to do what you want and prove that it works?

    #171950

    Bob5
    Member

    I’m mainly struggling to think of what kind of units you’d want to add then as T4’s for the races. I think it’d be limiting to force T4’s that may not exactly fit into the game into the game just because you can’t think of a better T4 for a particular race, and to be honest, if you want them because previous Age of Wonders games also had them, remember that most of those T4’s are already back into the game or there are other more suitable ways to introduce them:

    Human Air Galley. Both the transport system and the flying system have been heavily revamped. If this unit would be brought back, it would be far different from the old one in terms of how it works and feels, so much different that at least in my opinion it’s not worth doing this just for nostalgia sakes. If you want flying machines I think it’d be better to bring this to the Dreadnought class or something.

    Draconians: Red Dragon. Already in the game

    Frostlings: Ice Dragon, already in the game. Doom Wolf might work but Doom Wolf is also not a frostling, and could equally well be introduced as an extra unit in the Archdruid summon pools, or perhaps as some T4 unit for a Snow dwelling or something. I don’t exactly recall the Doom Wolf lore either, Drax probably has better memory for this than I do.

    Tigrans: The Sphinx is already in the Tigran lineup, although I think it doesn’t have Dominate anymore in exchange for Flying.

    Elves: Nature Elementals/tree guys. This unit was already sort of brought back as the Horned God, which is also a tree/giant mix. The Fairy Dragon was more of a fairy unit than an elf unit from my perspective, I think it’d be easier to just add this to the Fey dwelling. Incarnates were the dark elf units, and if I’d have to bring them back, they could come back as a Rogue T4 or something, idk.

    Halflings: Leprechaun fits in the Fey dwelling just fine

    Dwarves: Firstborn is already in the game. Steam Tank could be added to Dreadnought arsenal, although I’m not sure how much it’d actually add on top of Juggers and Cannons.

    Orcs: These had the Red Dragon in AoW1, for some reason. Is already in the game as Fire Dragon now. Later they had the Glutton, which is also already in the game.

    Goblins: Karagh are undoubtedly cool. They’re not actually Goblins though, their lore also denies them being Goblins. They’re just big screaming fast running monsters that run through underground caverns with big hammers. I’d add these to a new underground-only dwelling together with some other units like Doom Bats and simultaneously improve the attraction to the underground a bit. Give them Devastating Charge, Demolisher, Underground Athletics (Athletics only for UG tactical battles), and Overwhelm on top of what they had in previous games to keep them interesting and still give them that insane speed and wallbreaking power they had, but keep their defenses about at Manticore rider level or slightly below that to prevent them from becoming OP. They need that glass-cannon thing to set them apart from more bulky melee units with hammers like Warbreeds and undead Titans, while in exchange getting more offensive power.

    As I showed above, most of the racial T4s from previous games have better ways of adding them to the game than through races or are already in the game, while especially for Orcs, Tigrans, and Draconians would be quite difficult to find suitable T4s that aren’t too similar to already existing units.

    #172037

    Eomolch
    Member

    Hm, I think when it comes to imagening possible racial T4’s people are just being a little too unimaginative. There are more possibilities than to just add the T4’s from previous installments of the series … I don’t say my suggested line-up on the first page of this thread isn’t improvable or even neccessarily convenient at all (in fact it’s so horrible, everyone here is ignoring it ;)) but it clearly proves that there is actually a lot of room for racial T4’s design wise. Heck, the BNW mod for AOWSM had 3(!) racial T4’s for each race and most of them were unique and interesting and that without the possibility of introducing completely new mechanics (since the core of the game couldn’t be changed with modding tools).

    Also, since the argument of favouring summon based classes with racial T4’s came up … I used to think of this as the main reason why they left T4’s out in the first place and why they also removed summon T4’s from the mastery spheres. But look what happened … summon T4’s are getting reintroduced which should in theory heavily favour production classes since they didn’t have access to T4 summon units before – I don’t know about you all, but I personally missed the big balance outcry of the beta testers, not just that, in the coresponding dev journal only very few people even seemed to be concerned that this might be a balancing issue. Why shouldn’t the same apply to racial T4’s? Why should it favour sorcerer or arch druid when they lack the economic advantage of a dreadnought. warlord or rogue (this one is less obvious, but corpse looting and guild of shadow thieves are pretty decent in that respect).

    To make this clear, I don’t say racial T4’s have to be added to the game. Obviously it can do well without them since we wouldn’t face the release of a second expansion for it otherwise. All I am saying is that they could add a lot to the game if – and that can’t be stressed enough – they are implemented in a manner that limits there access to the late-mid and late-game and prevents spamming them up to a certain degree.

    #172105

    SaintTodd
    Member

    I honestly don’t understand how people can claim this game is balanced as is. When I get to the end of pretty much every game I’ve played, the determining factor of whether or not I win is less about my strategy, and more about what class I’m left facing. If I play as a warlord, and at the end I’m up against a Theocrat, I like my chances. But if I’m facing a rogue, damn, I’m in trouble. This is mostly because I don’t have anything to match up against Shadow Stalkers, especially if I’m an Orc or Goblin. Giving us more units, T4 or T3, whatever, is a way to give players a chance against unfavorable match-ups.

    #172109

    Bouh
    Member

    I repeat the question, do you come from the future?
    Did you see a game ruined by racial T4´s?
    Did you see the balance completely destroyed by racial T4´s?
    I really have to ask you this, because you talk like you do.

    Some people said the atomic bomb was a bad idea before it was tested. You don’t need to come from the future to have insights about what would happen with specific conditions.

    We can see often threads like “We want racial T4´s”, “We want more racial T3´s”, “We want more magic”, etc etc etc, but I think that behind of most of that stuff there is a petition like this: “Bring us back those iconic elements from previous games adapted to AoW3 standards”.

    One of the premices of AoW3 was that it should be different from the previous ones, because there’s no point in a graphical update. If people want to play AoW:SM, they can still play it, and the still as good as it was. AoW3 is not AoW:SM, it’s AoW3. It would have failed its objectives if it had felt like AoW:SM.

    @eomolch about summoned T4 and racial T4 : summoned T4 are in the research book, not in a city. You can only research one thing a time, and researching a T4 summon means you need to go for the whole tree before it, and during this time you research nothing else. You can also only summon one unit at a time and during this time you do nothing else with your CP.

    On top of that, most T4 people think about are battlefield monsters when most current T4 you can produce are more support units (exception being the manticore rider that piss everyone off when spamed).

    Finaly, T4 have never been and still aren’t racial units. Machines could be racial, but if every race get a racial T4 machine, it will quickly become redundant and will make the dreadnaught a lot less apealing.

    In AoW3, T4 just doesn’t fit race design, because T4 are not racial units and summon and machines belong to classes.

    #172112

    Bouh
    Member

    I honestly don’t understand how people can claim this game is balanced as is. When I get to the end of pretty much every game I’ve played, the determining factor of whether or not I win is less about my strategy, and more about what class I’m left facing. If I play as a warlord, and at the end I’m up against a Theocrat, I like my chances. But if I’m facing a rogue, damn, I’m in trouble. This is mostly because I don’t have anything to match up against Shadow Stalkers, especially if I’m an Orc or Goblin. Giving us more units, T4 or T3, whatever, is a way to give players a chance against unfavorable match-ups.

    This is not balance. This is baby sitting. You want to have all the tools to face all the situations. If you face a rogue, why didn’t you looked for a race that can fight shadow stalkers ? Even if it’s too late for this, why are you fighting shadow stalkers ? Why don’t you have any specialization to cover your weaknesses if this matter so much to you ?

    #172148

    Eomolch
    Member

    @eomolch about summoned T4 and racial T4 : summoned T4 are in the research book, not in a city. You can only research one thing a time, and researching a T4 summon means you need to go for the whole tree before it, and during this time you research nothing else. You can also only summon one unit at a time and during this time you do nothing else with your CP.

    I would hardly say researching the spells before the T4 research is useless, if you aren’t using any of your class /class summon units before the T4 I’d even say that is utterly stupid (generally speaking, not assuming you play this way).

    Apart from that I specifically said the T4’s should be implemented in a manner that doesn’t make them accessible too early. It’s funny how everyone asumes you can get them before class T4’s without any actual unlocking system in mind (since all of this is mere theory-crafting). The most natural approach to this that comes to mind is unlocking the T4 building per se through racial gouvernance (tier 3 or 4; additional to the “normal” choice) and have that building require the war hall, grand temple and master guild (which is more ore less on par with what was required in aow2). Of course there are other ways to unlock them (I also proposed a loyalty badge system some posts earlier) but to generally assume racial T4’s would be too easy to access and spam is just a convenient simplification of the situation for those that are against their introduction.

    On top of that, most T4 people think about are battlefield monsters when most current T4 you can produce are more support units (exception being the manticore rider that piss everyone off when spamed).

    Would you mind telling me which currently existing T4 is a support unit? 😀 That being said I agree the T4’s shouldn’t be monsters (though there could be plausible exceptions similar to the warbreed or the sphinx).

    Finaly, T4 have never been and still aren’t racial units. Machines could be racial, but if every race get a racial T4 machine, it will quickly become redundant and will make the dreadnaught a lot less apealing.

    And who says you can’t break with the system? While it is true that in the base games (at least aow 2 and SM, don’t know about aow 1) most T4 units were non-racial in a strict sense, there were several mods introducing racial T4’s as well and there was absolutely nothing wrong with them.

    #172160

    SaintTodd
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>SaintTodd wrote:</div>
    I honestly don’t understand how people can claim this game is balanced as is. When I get to the end of pretty much every game I’ve played, the determining factor of whether or not I win is less about my strategy, and more about what class I’m left facing. If I play as a warlord, and at the end I’m up against a Theocrat, I like my chances. But if I’m facing a rogue, damn, I’m in trouble. This is mostly because I don’t have anything to match up against Shadow Stalkers, especially if I’m an Orc or Goblin. Giving us more units, T4 or T3, whatever, is a way to give players a chance against unfavorable match-ups.

    This is not balance. This is baby sitting. You want to have all the tools to face all the situations. If you face a rogue, why didn’t you looked for a race that can fight shadow stalkers ? Even if it’s too late for this, why are you fighting shadow stalkers ? Why don’t you have any specialization to cover your weaknesses if this matter so much to you ?

    What a stupid comment. You say what I describe is not balance, then go on to say I should choose something different. Yeah, I know I can choose to be a Sorcerer and every game will be a cakewalk. You’re kind of making my point for me.

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