Tier 4 Racial Units

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Tier 4 Racial Units

This topic contains 115 replies, has 28 voices, and was last updated by  Jolly Joker 6 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #172184

    Bouh
    Member

    What did you understood by “specialization” ? I was talking about magical spheres, like fire or wild which are the best one to take to cover a lack of elemental damage. And there almost always are other races on the map than yours starting race. Exception is when your ennemy is the same race as you and you disabled cities, but “no city” parameter is unbalanced by definition, so…

    Would you mind telling me which currently existing T4 is a support unit? 😀 That being said I agree the T4′s shouldn’t be monsters (though there could be plausible exceptions similar to the warbreed or the sphinx).

    Juggernaught and altar of smiting are the two among three T4 that are not self sufficient combat powerhouse (they don’t even heal themselves), unlike the third one, the manticore rider. Rogue has no T4, and summoning classes can only ever produce one at a time and discard the use of his CP for anything else (when they are the most useful for dispel, combat magic and enchantments).

    As for research versus cities, what I mean is that you currently can’t unlock powerful units without research, you’ll be floured to racial T3 this way. If you want powerful and upgraded units, you need to spend time on several trees of the research book (unit tree + empire upgrade tree). If you want an angel, you need to focus on strategic spells tree, which discard unit tree or empire upgrades tree (and they are summoned, which is far from as powerful as produced in late game). With racial T4, you would be able to go fast through upgrades (or any other tree) and *at the same time* tech for T4 units.

    So I’m not saying it would be too easy, I’m saying it would allow you to go into your spellbook faster because one line of research is freed by a city. You don’t need this T7 research that cost so many, so you can research other things instead without increasing the turn where the T4 will come.

    And who says you can’t break with the system?

    Anyone who claims that adding racial T4 is not a big deal ? You can’t break the system and claim it’s not a big deal. Some people (most I’d even say) like this game and wouldn’t like it to be broken into something else. Even more so if it is to go back to AoW:SM paradigm, because AoW:SM already exists whereas if AoW3 is broken you will be left with nothing if that was what you wanted.

    That is what I hate BTW with many suggestions : people ask to break this game when it’s wonderful. I want to play AoW3. Upgrading it is fine, but turning it into something else is not.

    #172215

    Eomolch
    Member

    What did you understood by “specialization” ? I was talking about magical spheres, like fire or wild which are the best one to take to cover a lack of elemental damage.

    Since we were talking about T4 units I assumed you meant classes (and possibly new alignment specializations).

    And there almost always are other races on the map than yours starting race. Exception is when your ennemy is the same race as you and you disabled cities, but “no city” parameter is unbalanced by definition, so…

    So …? I seriously don’t know what point you are trying to make here.

    Juggernaught and altar of smiting are the two among three T4 that are not self sufficient combat powerhouse (they don’t even heal themselves), unlike the third one, the manticore rider. Rogue has no T4, and summoning classes can only ever produce one at a time and discard the use of his CP for anything else (when they are the most useful for dispel, combat magic and enchantments).

    Huh, needing some support doesn’t make them support units unless that is your definition of support units (opposed to the traditional meaning of supporting other troops). Also I consider the shadowstalker a T4 unit despite being classified as a T3. 😀 With the upcoming dark pact he is just sick.

    Also, who said racial T4’s would all have to be powerhouses?

    As for research versus cities, what I mean is that you currently can’t unlock powerful units without research, you’ll be floured to racial T3 this way. If you want powerful and upgraded units, you need to spend time on several trees of the research book (unit tree + empire upgrade tree). If you want an angel, you need to focus on strategic spells tree, which discard unit tree or empire upgrades tree (and they are summoned, which is far from as powerful as produced in late game). With racial T4, you would be able to go fast through upgrades (or any other tree) and *at the same time* tech for T4 units.

    So I’m not saying it would be too easy, I’m saying it would allow you to go into your spellbook faster because one line of research is freed by a city. You don’t need this T7 research that cost so many, so you can research other things instead without increasing the turn where the T4 will come.

    In the case of class T4’s I highly doubt you will just skip researching any of your class units because you know at some point you will have a racial T4 at your disposal 😮 Sure, the research that specifically unlocks the last class unit takes some time to research by itself, but it’s not like racial T4’s would make the complete unit research branch obsolete. The same goes for the angels. If you pick a specialization for it’s ultimate spell/summon only I’m inclined to say you’re doing it all wrong (again, generally speaking). All of this doesn’t even take into account that the racial T4(s) you may be able to produce don’t neccessarily make the other T4’s obsolete but should rather complement them in which case you still would want access to both of them.

    Anyone who claims that adding racial T4 is not a big deal ? You can’t break the system and claim it’s not a big deal.

    I said break with the system (of T4′ only being monsters) not break the system or the game itself, lol. Please explain to me how changing the conceptual idea that T4 units can only be monsters (and maybe machines) to also include humanoid T4 units would destroy the game?

    #172241

    Bouh
    Member

    Bouh wrote:

    What did you understood by “specialization” ? I was talking about magical spheres, like fire or wild which are the best one to take to cover a lack of elemental damage.

    Since we were talking about T4 units I assumed you meant classes (and possibly new alignment specializations).

    Bouh wrote:

    And there almost always are other races on the map than yours starting race. Exception is when your ennemy is the same race as you and you disabled cities, but “no city” parameter is unbalanced by definition, so…

    So …? I seriously don’t know what point you are trying to make here.

    I was here answering SaintTodd.

    In the case of class T4′s I highly doubt you will just skip researching any of your class units because you know at some point you will have a racial T4 at your disposal 😮 Sure, the research that specifically unlocks the last class unit takes some time to research by itself, but it’s not like racial T4′s would make the complete unit research branch obsolete. The same goes for the angels. If you pick a specialization for it’s ultimate spell/summon only I’m inclined to say you’re doing it all wrong (again, generally speaking). All of this doesn’t even take into account that the racial T4(s) you may be able to produce don’t neccessarily make the other T4′s obsolete but should rather complement them in which case you still would want access to both of them.

    I suspect you are talking about SP where only the AI matters anyway for balance. In MP, researching redundant things is not a good idea.

    Please explain to me how changing the conceptual idea that T4 units can only be monsters (and maybe machines) to also include humanoid T4 units would destroy the game?

    Not break the game, change it into something else. You break a paradigm of the game that made AoW what it has been over all those years. You can’t say this is not a big deal.

    Huh, needing some support doesn’t make them support units unless that is your definition of support units (opposed to the traditional meaning of supporting other troops).

    What I meant is that they need support to not die horribly. Can you try to understand what I write please ?

    Also, who said racial T4′s would all have to be powerhouses?

    Even if only some of them are powerhouses, it will break the balance I described.

    #172276

    Eomolch
    Member

    I was here answering SaintTodd.

    Whoops, sorry 😉

    I suspect you are talking about SP where only the AI matters anyway for balance. In MP, researching redundant things is not a good idea.

    Yes, I am talking about SP. Still a) you can’t know to what extent the T4’s would be redundant with existing ones, b) you may still want to research the class T4 to gain access to a T4 earlier and c) if you decide to skip the last research that is your personal strategy, not neccessarily the best one and surely not for all class/race/specs combinations (I’d actually expect redundancy of class T4 vs racial T4 as the exception to the rule for most combinations).

    Not break the game, change it into something else. You break a paradigm of the game that made AoW what it has been over all those years. You can’t say this is not a big deal.

    So you are saying T4 units being monsters or magical beings was (and is) the essence of the age of wonders series? Or what do you refer to, since clearly you can’t be talking about racial T4’s in general which always had been part of the series?

    What I meant is that they need support to not die horribly. Can you try to understand what I write please ?

    I’ll admit my wording wasn’t exactly ideal here, since I perfectly understood your definition of support units after your second post. I just wanted to point out that it was rather unusual to use the term this way.

    Even if only some of them are powerhouses, it will break the balance I described.

    That seems to be your theory yes. But you can hardly sell it as a fact 😉 Unfortunately it’s not that easy or I could have just stated the opposite after my initial post and spare myself the pages of discussion that were to follow it. Not that I would even want to do that since – as I stated several times already – the balance of the racial T4’s would not only depend on their own characteristics but also on how they are unlocked, produced, etc. which means their impact on the game would strongly vary depending on how they would get implemented. Sure, there are possible versions of a racial T4 implementation where they are game-breaking, I won’t argue with that. But the same way there would be implementations where they are underwhelming (if not obsolete) and – guess what- some where they actually blend in just fine.

    #172283

    Bob5
    Member

    Can we drop the balance discussion? It’s pretty much impossible to discuss balance on units when we don’t even know what units we’re actually talking about, let alone their stats, time of arrival, etc. I think it’d be possible to balance racial T4s, although it’d probably take quite some work to do so, but in my previous post which was sort of ignored I tried to give the discussion a different direction.

    My main question is, why add T4s to the races? I think that that method would be limiting your design space a bit, as every race would need one T4, or multiple T4s, but preferably all the same amount of T4s. Then you run into the problem that it is easier to come up with great ideas for T4s for some races than for other races, so great ideas might be left out because you can’t think of good T4s for the other races, or also a bunch of T4s get added that might not thematically fit very well (like the Red Dragon the Orcs had in the first Age of Wonders). If you introduce new T4s through dwellings or some other method you can introduce them one by one, more carefully, and get all the popular ones like Leprechauns out there without having to think of something for say, Orcs. This problem only grows as more races get added to the game.

    #172297

    Yelok
    Member

    @Jolly Joker

    You really don´t understand what you read.

    While I´m trying to apply scientific method here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method), you are trying to just persuade me with speculations, what a shame, you act like a troll.

    There is no scientific method without testing, for that reason, I strongly believe that mod tools could prove my point.

    @bob5

    Exactly Bob, this is what I´m trying to discuss here, I think, many people asking for racial T4´s/magic/racial T3´s are not asking really for that, they are asking for that iconic stuff from previous games.

    TS already did it, we have examples like Glutton, Dread Reaper and Sphinx, they came back as dwelling T4/class T4/racial T4, and they fit in the current system.

    People like Glow, Althea, you, me and more have said that about fey dwelling, Fairy Dragons and Leprechauns could fit perfecly in it. Karaghs could fit in an underground dwelling, Air Galleys/Forceships with dread stuff or machine store/dwelling, Doom Wolves in an artic dwelling or second racial T3, Basilisk as extra naga or sea dwelling unit, there are many ways to do it.

    @On

    Balance is really overrated here. Upcoming DLC will bring us new systems, units, magic, and I´m sure, they won´t be balanced with current content, even after it has been tested for few people, but surprise!, after some days DLC will be balanced. Some users have created a myth around balance.

    Unfortunately, without mod tools, this forum turns into a speculation festival, and that´s weird, because there are many balance speculators, even more weird, you cannot reach a balance state without testing, sad but true.

    I wonder how many aspects of this game has been changed in order to prevent a poor gamer ethics, you can see players comparing T4´s with atomic bombs because people want to use atomic bombs for wars and not for meteor menace protection (and yeah, it´s not movie based, it is really in NASA protocol), a cheeser/exploiter gamer is not fault of TS/AoW, learn to play.

    As a conclusion, I think, racial T4´s are possible and viable, however, with the current version of the game, it could be more convenient to add old units via dwelling, magic, second racial T3, etc, because it could be more friendly to the current AoW3 system.

    #172304

    Bouh
    Member

    So you are saying T4 units being monsters or magical beings was (and is) the essence of the age of wonders series?

    You are modifying my words and interpreting them as stupidly as you can aren’t you ? I feel like you are losing my time…

    #172309

    jb
    Member

    I’m not against racial T4’s as a concept. I just prefer to utilize development resources elsewhere.

    The time it would take to create the required art could be better spent elsewhere.

    #172310

    Althea
    Member

    I’m not totally against racial T4, however i totally agree with chrys, he describe it better than me.

    However i also don’t want to limit the creative powers that can be applied to this game.

    That’s why i’m in favor of the middle ground that benefit all sides, i like win-win scenario than win-lose scenario. Because of this, i think the wisest course of action that the dev should take is not making racial T4, instead of that they should give mod tools.

    #172319
    #172327

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @Jolly Joker

    You really don´t understand what you read.

    While I´m trying to apply scientific method here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method), you are trying to just persuade me with speculations, what a shame, you act like a troll.

    There is no scientific method without testing, for that reason, I strongly believe that mod tools could prove my point.

    Dude, all you try is making a fool of yourself – admittedly, with some success. I’m all for you applying the scientific method which you would know if you COULD read or had bothered to, because I’m all for you getting mod tools and trying what you want to – but instead you write sermons about how great it would be to have the T4s “officially”, obviously “preempting” the results of applying your scientific method, seemingly because you have a very scientific strong belief.

    If you want to impress someone with that bull, try elsewhere.

    #172333

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I am generally not for censorship in game forum, but this thread is really degenerating and is no longer offering anything resembling ideas…

    Lock?

    #172348

    Erathil
    Member

    Alright, long post incoming because I spent some time thinking about tier III and IV units I’d like to see added. I’ll admit, this is just something I find fun to do in slow moments at work.

    I like the idea of more high tier racial units, and I can think of a few ways to do it. You could have city size requirements, additional buildings (with the tier IV one requiring both tier IIIs and/or a palace), or making it mutually exclusive with class buildings, so you could build manticores or racial tier IV from a single city, but not both, forcing you to specialize your cities and develop accordingly. My personal favorite implimentation idea, though, is to require a special treasure building; you find a treasure site (like a Shrine of Ancient Secrets) and you need to clear it and build a corresponding building in your city to make racial tier IVs. It would make these locations incredibly valuable to the overall strategy of the map.

    As for my ideas…

    -Draconian-

    Tier III: Cold Ones
    Lore: Rumored to be descendents of ice dragons or the Wizard Ambir herself, a witch-like coven of blue scaled ritualists have surfaced in many draconian cities. They do not possess their races’ vulnerability to cold, and indeed can share their own natural resistance to it with allies while raining down bolts of ice on distant enemies.
    Practice: Tier III support units, Cold Ones have frost resistance (And fire vulnerability), Frost Bolts, and the Frozen Heart and Freezing Touch abilities. Freezing Touch is a touch-based attack that attempts to freeze and enemy, and inflicts some frost and movement point damage if it fails. Frozen Heart is a buff that can be given every two turns, giving the target friendly unit Frost Resistance, Frost Damage, and increased Resistance.

    Tier IV: Hydra
    Lore: A conclave of sorcerers once tried to undo the magic that had transformed the Draconians, hoping to become dragons themselves. Their ritual failed, disastrously, merging the sorcerers into a many-headed draconic abomination… but their spell did effect the draconian race. To this day, one in a hundred draconian eggs hatch into a being with two heads. As this individual ages, their form mutates, becoming more bestial, and more heads grow until they are a full hydra; a monster with the mind of a draconian, a monstrous appearance, and a multitude of snapping heads. The largest draconian cities build lairs for these individuals, courting their presence so that they be unleashed in battle.
    Practice: The Hydra is a monstrous irregular unit that functions as something almost like a dragon. It is Fearsome, its melee attacks to good physical damage (mixed with some blight and fire), and it has the Many Headed special rule, which allows it to retaliate against flanking attacks (combined with Tireless, removing movement point costs for retaliations, and Regeneration, this makes the Hydra exceedingly difficult to mire and kill). It has an additional active ability Spread Attack, which costs three action points and attacks every enemy in a short cone in front of it, doing one attack’s worth of damage without opportunity to retaliate.

    -Dwarf-

    Tier III: Runesmith
    Lore: Dwarves have long studied the magic of runes; ancient arcane symbols that directly tap a primordial, foundational power of the earth. For all this study, they have made very little progress in understanding the power of this ancient language, but even their mistakes can prove valuable. When desperate need arises weary runesmiths will leave their studies, don rune-inscribed armor, and carve their practiced sigils onto the battlefield, waiting for ignorant foes to unleash the magic within.
    Practice: Runesmiths are tier III support units with heavy armor, middling fire and lightning resistance, and a handful of special abilities. Rune of Protection places a runic ward at a fixed point the battleground that reduces all incoming damage to every unit within a hex radius by 50%. Rune of Flame creates a rune at a fixed point that will explode when an enemy moves into an adjacent hex, doing fire damage (with a chance of inflicting immolation) to all units in a one hex radius. Rune of Thunder creates a rune at a target location that acts like Rune of Flame, but detonates for light lightning damage and a high chance of stunning any adjacent unit. All runes have a three turn cooldown and two turn duration on the tactical map.

    Tier IV: Armored Mole
    Lore: Following the closure of the last Shadow Gate, many strange phenomena radiated across the land, amongst them the decline of the giant moles dwarves had used as heavy cavalry. Only recently had exploration in the deepest caverns of the old world uncovered a healthy population, more robust than the previous ones, imbued with some manner of the earth’s elemental strength. These moles were quickly domesticated and their unique abilities harnessed by the most prosperous dwarven cities. Their powerful claws can cleave through the underground and heavy armor with equal ease, and their mobility is unmatched.
    Practice: The armored mole is a heavy cavalry unit with a hard hitting attack. It has the Armor Crushing passive ability, which passively reduces the defense value of enemies it engages in melee, and the Underground Eruption active ability. Underground Eruption has the mole burrow into the ground and reemerge violently at the target location, damaging and stunning all adjacent units.

    -Goblins-
    Tier III: Rubbish Wagon
    Lore: A recent ‘innovation’ amongst the goblins, many rag-tag groups of goblin militia have seen victory won from the jaws of defeat thanks to the support of mobile Rubbish Wagons. Often mistaken for piles of garbage by outsiders, these wagons are piles of useful and helpful supplies, stockpiled into a rough defensive barricade and dragged into combat by a team of scrawny wolves. From their position in the wagon proper, defended goblins throw toxic scrap, helpful fungus, and catapult piles of filth at enemies.
    Practice: The Rubbish Wagon is a tier III mechanic support unit. Although it looks like a chariot, it moves at goblin infantry speed. It has no direct attack but three special abilities. Scrap Catapult is a long range attack that throws a bundle of toxic scrap at a target area, doing light damage but with a high chance of inflicting bleeding, severely poisoned, and crippling poison (the attack costs three action points and has a one turn cooldown). Throw Fungus tosses a bundle of mushrooms at a target location, healing all goblin units and buffing their morale (it costs three action points and has a two turn cooldown). Lastly, Throw Rubbish is a medium range shooting attack that does mixed blight and physical damage, doing one shot per unused action point and causing a cloud of Disgusting Stench at the target (although it might be more fun/useful to make it an ability that shoots at all nearby enemy units instead, sans stench cloud).

    Tier IV: Deep Ones
    Lore: Goblin lives are most often short and brutal, but there always those who seek more. Some are drawn by whispers into the depths, in the deepest and darkest caves, unwholesome places where dwarves will not venture. Even goblins do not like to discuss these places, or those who return from them. These goblins are changed by what they encounter in the depths, physically and spiritually. Normally, they are left alone to their chanting and ritual, but it times of great need goblins will recruit their twisted Deep Ones.
    Practice: Tier four infantry, Deep Ones are corrupted goblins with some Lovecraftian features (misshapen forms, tentacles, etc.). For goblins, they are very sturdy, with excellent health and Regeneration. Their terrifying appearance makes them Fearsome, their attacks can apply spirit break and a unique status, Degenerate. Degenerate inflicts spirit damage each turn and lowers movement rate and resistance. Enemies that die with Degenerate explode violently, doing blight damage to all nearby enemies. Additionally, they have the Presence Below active ability; a ranged attack that summons a spear of eldritch origin from the ground, wounding and crippling a target at long range with a chance to inflict Degenerate.

    -Halfing-
    Tier III: Sheriff
    Lore: The most respected halfing in any town is awarded the title of Sheriff, and charged with keeping the peace. In times of war, these Halflings often rally the militia, acting as battlefield leaders. They clam the nerves of their kin, bolstering spirits with good cheer and dignity, smoking the pipes that seem to act as a badge of office. Like most of their kind, they are only mediocre fighters, but they bring with them a variety of useful skills.
    Practical: The Sheriff is a support unit (on foot only so that Halflings don’t have two tier III cavalry units) who focuses on improving the effectiveness of the army. First, they come with Bard’s Skills to bolster morale (and luckiness). Secondly, they have Leadership, which improves the melee and ranged damage of friendly units within a two hex radius of the Sheriff. Lastly, they have Smoke Cloud (a form of Disgusting Stench that doesn’t offend Halflings and causes slight poison damage to adjacent enemies), Fire Pistol, and Projectile Resistance. Like the original Sheriff, they’re attractive support units for both Halflings and non-Halfling races, whose buffs can make it useful to attach to armies of other races.

    Tier IV: Changeling
    Lore: The Halflings used to have an alliance with numerous Fey folk, but those bonds have been worn by the hardships of the past age. Every now and then, though, an individual Halfling emerges with a spark of the fey about them. They never seem to stand still, can be found in places they couldn’t possibly get to, and are invariably tied to mischief. Rumors abound as to their true nature; are they students of the old leprechauns, tutored in the faerie realms, or actual fey left in place of Halfling children? Whatever their origin, their talent for trickery and subterfuge can be a tremendous aid to their allies in troubled times.
    Practice: A Halfling successor to the old Leprechaun, the Changeling is a very had to kill unit with a wide range of nifty tricks. They are tier IV irregulars with the Very Lucky ability by default, Fairy Fire (the nightshade version), Phase, Taunt, Sabotage, and two unique abilities; Fairy Light and Tricky. Tricky does spirit damage to an enemy whenever their target is successfully lucky, and Fairy Light is an Area of Effect ability that gives friendly units in its seven hex radius Very Lucky for one turn and does 200 morale damage to enemies for one turn, with a chance to dazzle. A changeling won’t do much damage, but can be a powerful disruptive and tactical tool.

    -High Elves-
    Tier III: Storm Rangers
    Lore: Light or Dark, there are no better archers than those of elven descent, and there are no finer archers among the elves than those of the rangers. The traditions of the rangers have changed with the mending, their innate connection to the magical world weakened by the reunification of the elves. Modern rangers embrace elven arts, channeling the power of lightning into their bows and arrows.
    Practice: Tier III archers, rangers have the unique Fire Storm Bows ability. For all intents and purposes, it functions as Shoot Longbow, but does additional lightning damage. Once per battle, they can use the ability Storm’s Blessing, which adds additional lightning damage to their attacks and allows their shots to ignore obstacle penalties for one turn. While they’re sturdier than tier one archers, they will still do poorly in protracted melee, so they have the Disengage ability, similar to the naga Slither Away. Disengage randomly moves the unit four hexes in a backward direction (any place where an enemy could do flanking damage), and leaves them with one dot of activity left to move, guard, or shoot.

    Tier IV: Iron Maidens
    Lore: One of the oldest and most esteemed traditions of the wood elves, the iron maidens were the most virtuous of their kind, riding pure unicorns to war against despoilers. After the mending, the order of Iron Maidens underwent something of a reimagining, embracing dark elf converts and tactics. The modern Iron Maidens use the enchanted life-stealing blades of the Executioners, phasing through the battlefield on shadowy mounts mixed from unicorns and darker things by old, occult magic. No longer the pure warrior maidens of old, the modern Iron Maidens reflect high elf martial culture, mixing light and dark into truly deadly warriors.
    Practice: Heavy cavalry with life steal, martial prowess, and phase, Iron Maidens are something of a mix between the old SM Iron Maidens and dark elf executioners. They are hard hitting heavy cavalry with an emphasis on mobility. Their shadowy armor gives them projectile resistance. In addition to phase they have the Shadow Dash special rule, a variation on sprint that has a one turn cooldown and allows the Iron Maidens to move four hexes without suffering attacks of opportunity (unlike sprint, it does not add movement to the unit’s pool but resets it to charging range). Their attacks have a passive chance to weaken enemies, reducing their defense and resistance, and they receive Victory Rush at gold medal level, making them incredibly potent, fast, and hard-hitting tactical cavalry.

    -Humans-
    Tier III: Guildsmen
    Lore: Worried by the strength and power of feudal knights, a number of human mercantile interests sought for a tool to curb the threat posed by the heavy mounted soldiers. Although originally developed as a counter- weapon to knights, the mixed regiments of well outfitted pikemen and crossbowmen the guilds deployed soon found great success on the battlefield, and were quickly implemented to supplement human forces across Athla.
    Practice: Guildsmen are a mixed unit of pikemen and archers, and benefit from both unit classifications. They lack the strength of the warlord phalanx, but can fire heavy crossbows at range. Their unique ability, Porcupine Stance, lets them adopt a guard position and shoot during the same turn. It requires three action points, so Guildsmen units can’t move far with this ability. They’re a super defensive compliment to the knight, but the crossbows don’t do much damage for tier III, forcing the player to decide if you move them far, attack with pikes, or guard and shoot for minimal, safe damage.

    Tier IV: Adventurer
    Lore: Humans are insane. A growing number of scholars attribute the race’s success and its ability to bounce back from near-extinction, time and time again, to this simple fact. Every race will eventually produce a hero who can slay dragons, but a human village will produce a string of them, each throwing themselves at absurd situations until a few actually succeed. These adventurers fill tomes and taverns with stories of heroism, and although notoriously irregular, they can change the course of wars when recruited to the fight.
    Practice: The adventurer is something of a mini-hero, a jack of all trades that can synergize with any class. They ride on horseback, but count as cavalry, irregular, archer, and support to take advantage of empire passives, so an archdruid adventurer will be very different from a rogue adventurer. By default they have Shoot Bow, Sprint, and Spell Casting (with twenty points, using their leader’s spells or some random low-tier combat spells if they’re independent). Adventurers scale well with medals, and because of their list of attributes, they can be produced at silver medal with the right conditions (Jousting Hall, Research Lab, and a class upgrade that improves starting veterancy of infantry, cavalry, irregulars, or support).

    -Orcs-
    Tier III: Abomination
    Lore: In ages past, orcs developed a dreadful ritual that would transform one of their kind into a twisted, shambling abomination. Originally used as punishment (of which, orcs were always eager to carry out), the resulting Abominations were used as irregular soldiers, their unique physiology allowing them to swim, scale walls, and entangle enemies twisting vines. The secret of making abominations has long been lost, and all those that survive are accomplished veterans of over a hundred years of fighting. Indeed, the half-plant outcasts have become something like celebrities in orcish culture for their gruesome appearance and ability to keep fighting.
    Practice: Tier III irregulars, abominations are part assassins, part shaman. They have Venomous Spit, Regeneration, and Advanced Wall Climbing as well Forestry and Swimming. They have the unique ability Entangling Attacks which gives all their attacks, melee and ranged, a chance to immobilize an enemy in entangling vines. This makes their modest physical and blight attack much more significant. Their crowd control is similar to shaman’s, but less predictable, which compliments their role as irregular fighters and guerrillas.

    Tier IV: War Beast
    Lore: No one knows where the orcs dredged up the War Beast. Some say orc adventurers found the brutish creatures while exploring distant lands. Others that they raised the beasts from creatures mutilated by sorcery. The orcs certainly don’t care; they compete to raise these ponderous, massive brutes and then ride them into battle, crushing foes with mighty mauling claws and goring horns. For their parts, the War Beasts take to slaughter with an almost gleeful enthusiasm that belies their massive size, and rarely ever eat their orc handlers as a light snack.
    Practice: The War Beast is a massive cavalry unit (I picture it as something like a cross between a rhinoceros and a gorilla, with powerful arms, goring horns, and a lumbering gait). It’s pretty orcy, in that its approach to problems is to charge into them and break them. It has tremendous physical damage and the same Powerful Charge that the mammoth rider does, as well as Wall Smashing. It has the unique Berserk Rage passive ability, giving it increased damage every time it kills a unit in tactical combat on top of the orcish Victory Rush. Let one of these gore its way through your irregular skrimishers and it can two-shot your toughest hero.

    -Frostlings-
    Tier III: Bear Riders
    Lore: Admittedly, I don’t have much of a lore explanation of these. Only that if you have domesticated bears, it is criminally irresponsible not to use them as shock cavalry. These would be normal frostling males riding on the polar bears that the heroes use as mounts.
    Practice: Honestly, I think these would work better as tier II cavalry, bumping up the Mammoth Rider to tier III. I imagine fairly typical tier II cavalry with Inflict Bleeding Wounds, solid attack and defense scores, and the special ability Holy Crap, Bears!, which vies the Bear Riders the Fearsome special rule on any turn they charge an enemy.

    Tier IV: Iceborn
    Lore: As the frostling race continued to delve into the magic of the far north, intermingling with the native fey, some few frost queens went deeper, studying the lore of Arctica and the strange, lost archives in the frozen north. A few of these arcane women make pilgrimage to a distant, sacred place, a throne that was ancient even in Arctica’s time, in a hidden place where howling winds can cut through even a frostling’s bones. Those few who survive the trip return changed, less mortal. Their very essence is mingled with cold chill, and they are reborn from the ice at the roof of the world.
    Practice: The Iceborn are effectively elementals, moving on pillars of shifting ice that mingles with their very bodies. They are powerful melee combatants with a degree of physical protection and the Ice Eater passive, which allows them to convert frost damage dealt to them into health. Their melee attacks have a chance to freeze enemies with every hit. In addition, they have a long ranged Arctic Blast attack, which creates a cyclone of ice over a small area of effect (seven hexes). Targets take ice damage, have a chance to be frozen, and receive frost vulnerability, reducing frost resistance. It has cooldown rules similar to the Horned God’s call lighting.

    -Tigran-
    Tier III: Cat Masters
    Lore: The Cat Masters are an ancient and venerable order of roaming rangers, esteemed tigran warriors mounted on the backs of powerful saber-toothed tigers. They have long roamed the desert and steppes away from tigran cities, ranging far into the wilderness and wilds. They are excellent and flexible cavalry, equally at home charging into enemy ranks as flanking pike formations and riddling them with arrows.
    Practice: Cat Masters are tier III cavalry and archers that provide fast, flexible force. Their mounts give them Predatory Instinct and ranged attacks from their bows can Inflict Bleeding. They have Charge like normal cavalry, but can also use Pounce to strike opponents behind walls, giving them a powerful mobility advantage that other terrestrial cavalry cannot match. They lack the melee strength of the Big Beetle, but make up for it with versatility.

    Tier IV: Sun Avatar
    Lore: Following mysteries of their lost benefactor, Yaka, tigran mystics uncovered ancient Azrac ruins along the Ashen Steppe. Through long study, some mystics have unlocked unique secrets the ancient Azracs unlocked, imbuing their own essence with the fiery power of the sun and, some believe, a splinter of Yaka’s divine will. Their fur ripples with fiery magic, and burning energies well within their eyes.
    Practice: The Sun Avatar is a tier IV support unit and spiritual successor to the old Yaka Avatar from the original game. They have Fire Immunity, Inflict Immolate, Inflict Spirit Break, Burning Aura, Sunfire Bolts, and Dominate. Sunfire Bolts throws bolts that do fire and spirit damage at long range. Burning Aura does fire damage to adjacent enemy units at the start of every turn. Dominate attempts to take control of an enemy.

    I tried to make them adhere to current design philosophy, although I admit some cut corners.

    #172375

    Yelok
    Member

    @Jolly Joker

    You are not the center of the universe, I´m not trying to convince/impress you/them, what I´m trying to do is expand the perspective of the people with my words, because I have expanded my perspective with their words, that´s the goal of a dialogue.

    Talking with you is like “Look bud, I have the biggest pen…cil to write things”. Your ego makes you blind.

    @epaminondas

    That´s not the solution, the right solution is warn/ban to Jolly Joker and/or me.

    Sorry Althea, but I gonna use you as example again. You can see Althea´s comments through the time, you can notice about how his opinion has “changed”, Althea now has a bigger perspective of this matter, today Althea and me don´t share the same opinion, but we know our perspectives better than before, that´s the point of a healthy discussion.

    But what happens with Jolly Joker?
    He believes he knows the truth and he doesn´t want to have a dialogue, because he wanna impose his opinion, because he thinks he´s right. With that attitude, you cannot have a healthy discussion.

    If after this, Sorax decides to put a warning/ban on me, it´s fine, but he must be neutral and put a warning/ban on him as well.

    @On

    Making models in these days is not that hard as the past. The current model tools/software are very powerful, indeed, is not like making popcorn, but is not that hard as you may think.

    It could be interesting if TS opens a model contest (you don´t need to have mod tools for that), and, as a prize, your model could be included oficially in the game.

    #172441

    Joni
    Member

    Huge but very well laid out wall of text.

    This is what I was talking about earlier in this thread (“to all the supporters: show us what you’ve got!”)

    You, sir, deserve +1 karma for proving that with enough creativity as well as a rock solid grasp on the current game, one can come up with quite convincing ideas for new units as well as an interesting and possibly well balanced mechanism on how to implement them.

    Thank you for this good read!

    #172450

    Bob5
    Member

    Erathil

    I really like these ideas as well. Some relics of the past but also some uniquely new ones like that Orc Warbeast. The basics of the ideas is certainly very good, some details would still need changing (Polar bear riders need swimming for instance, and there are already adventurer units in the game), but the lore and thematics is very good in my opinion, it’s a solid foundation to start from.

    #172465

    SaintTodd
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Erathil wrote:</div>
    Huge but very well laid out wall of text.

    This is what I was talking about earlier in this thread (“to all the supporters: show us what you’ve got!”)

    You, sir, deserve +1 karma for proving that with enough creativity as well as a rock solid grasp on the current game, one can come up with quite convincing ideas for new units as well as an interesting and possibly well balanced mechanism on how to implement them.

    Thank you for this good read!

    +1, indeed.

    #172489

    hlsmith
    Member

    Okay, I’m late to the party but after reading the last 2 most recent threads (I now want to kill myself) I think I’m fairly well versed on this matter and I have an idea to lay down that I haven’t seen suggested yet. I do understand that it would be too much to implement, requiring at least 56 new units (including Eternal Lords class/races content)… but here goes.

    The problem as I see it is that TS has sacrificed some racial diversity for class diversity, taking racial uniqueness away from the game. At first I really felt the need for extra racial (t3/t4) units to solve this. But having read a lot of the other comments and thinking about it more I am now more convinced that extra racial units are not what is needed.

    So, what if instead of the same t4 class unit across all races, each race had a different class specific unit. So it would be based on both class and race. So just for an easy example a Dwarven city controlled by a Dreadnaught would produce a Juggernaut as their class t4. The same Dreadnaught would be able to produce the Air Galley at a Human City. So basically the class t4 unit you can produce in a city is governed by the race of that city.

    I don’t know if it’s nostalgia that makes me want some of the units in previous AoW games back but I really did love the uniqueness of a lot of them and I would look at bringing some of them back into this idea, while keeping most (if not all) current t4’s and adding new ones where needed.

    So (balancing issues aside) some more examples of this change, bringing back some old school units would be –

    High Elf/Rogue – Shade
    Frostling/Arch Druid – Doom Wolf
    High Elf/Arch Druid – Treant (Treeman renamed)
    Halfling/Warlord – Sheriff
    Goblin/Arch Druid – Doom Bats

    Some examples of new units (using some of Erathils’ awesome ideas :D) –

    Orc/Rogue – Abomination (or that could be retooled for Necro, it really is a diverse unit and I can’t really pigeon hole it in my idea but I like it a lot)
    Halfling/Theocrat – Changeling

    And one of my own –

    Draconian/Sorcerer – Ethereal Dragon

    Some examples of existing t4’s –

    Tigran/Theocrat – Sphinx (making this a t4 cos it fit tigran theo so well)
    High Elf/Theocrat – Horned God
    Human/Theocrat – Shrine

    etc. etc.

    So this would in effect add different units without actually increasing the unit pool.
    Way too ambitious I know… 🙁

    EDIT: Oh wait no it would increase the pool as well. idiot..

    #172506

    Nerdfish
    Member

    I am in favor of having another T3 per race, mutually exclusive with the existing one. basically each city can pick between the two T3, which add some more customization and flavor to cities and armies.

    #172560

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ hlsmith

    My first thought is, that this might be a suggestion worth of this game! It would require a lot of work and a lot of new monsters, though, which is a drawback.

    I think, that this would be a suggestion for TRiumph to at least give some thought, whether it would be doable, in case they continue the work on the game.

    (And I might add, that this is FINALLY a creative idea for this topic. Thanks for that.)

    #172656

    Bouh
    Member

    So, to sum up arguments in favor of racial T4 :
    – it’s cool ;
    – no one comes from the future, so no one can talk about their balance (this is among the worst arguments ever) ;
    – it’s cool and harmless (harmless being a self supported argument because of the second point).

    I hate this forum more and more.

    #172666

    Eomolch
    Member

    You are modifying my words and interpreting them as stupidly as you can aren’t you ? I feel like you are losing my time…

    If you give vagueish answers and don’t care to explain yourself when asked for, you should face the possibility that you might get misunderstood. And please, in the future, quote whole passages from my answers and not just single sentences without their context. Thank you.

    @erathil: Nice unit lineup 😀 Some of your suggestions match the ones I mentioned earlier even though yours seem to be much more elaborate since you get a bunch of thumbsups while no one even cares to tell me that mine are shite 🙁

    @hlsmith: This was basically what many people hoped for when the first details about the class system leaked through. It would be amazing to have things work that way but I am afraid we won’t see something similar until mod tools get released (or not even then, since it would be a tremendous amount of work).

    #172678

    Astraflame
    Member

    @hlsmith This was basically what many people hoped for when the first details about the class system leaked through. It would be amazing to have things work that way but I am afraid we won’t see something similar until mod tools get released (or not even then, since it would be a tremendous amount of work).

    It’s the issue with classes, race part has been sacrificed and contrast between different races is the most important thing in a fantasy setting. I like classes though and from a pure gameplay perspective it adds a positive and fresh element to the game it’s just that i wish it was more developed, with race uniqueness in mind, no multi race warbreeds etc

    I could be wrong, but isn’t this what people really are asking for. SM had 12 races with 12 unique T4s, to go from that to 7 class T4 can feel like a significant loss, now what if classes had race specific units, could also be a way of oldclassic units appearing without being made for just dwellings or a new race/class.

    #172679

    If after this, Sorax decides to put a warning/ban on me

    Sacrifices goat.

    #172681

    Gloweye
    Member

    I could be wrong, but isn’t this what people really are asking for. SM had 12 races with 12 unique T4s, to go from that to 7 class T4 can feel like a significant loss, now what if classes had race specific units, could also be a way of oldclassic units appearing without being made for just dwellings or a new race/class.

    Except that isn’t what happened. There are 14 T4’s that you can recruit without secret spells, 17 if you include specialisations and 20 with another 3 from secret spells. If anything, the dwellings in the game improve variety, though at the cost of predictability(which is a “cost” I gladly pay). Since your Elf Empire will now not have just the nature elemental, but maybe a different T4 based on which dwelling you encounter, aside from you predictable class T4.

    #172687

    Joni
    Member

    So, to sum up arguments in favor of racial T4 :<br>
    – it’s cool ;<br>
    – no one comes from the future, so no one can talk about their balance (this is among the worst arguments ever) ;<br>
    – it’s cool and harmless (harmless being a self supported argument because of the second point).

    I hate this forum more and more.

    If you want to support the “conservative” wing of this discussion, I’d recommend you to try and be more constructive and less pejorative.

    It might be a little inconvenient for you (and for me btw, as I am not really a genuine fan of racial T4’s either!), but after having read the entire thread – and especially a number of new posts bringing in fresh ideas – it should dawn on you that quite a few other people do not only have different views, but they even manage to quite substantially argue in favor of introducing concepts that might add racial/class/hybrid T3/4s taking into account some of the general concerns that have been raised in the past (and the present).

    Now if you are able and willing to elaborate on why these concepts cannot ever work due to balance/gameplay mechanic/lore reasons – the floor is surely yours!

    #172690

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Still, hlsmith’s idea is a good one – although it’s of course unclear whether the rewards would justify the huge amount of work necessary.
    I also agree about the dwellings, which are basically “neutral recruiting places”, making neutrals a really awesome part of the game.

    #172692

    Astraflame
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Astraflame wrote:</div>
    I could be wrong, but isn’t this what people really are asking for. SM had 12 races with 12 unique T4s, to go from that to 7 class T4 can feel like a significant loss, now what if classes had race specific units, could also be a way of oldclassic units appearing without being made for just dwellings or a new race/class.

    Except that isn’t what happened. There are 14 T4′s that you can recruit without secret spells, 17 if you include specialisations and 20 with another 3 from secret spells. If anything, the dwellings in the game improve variety, though at the cost of predictability(which is a “cost” I gladly pay). Since your Elf Empire will now not have just the nature elemental, but maybe a different T4 based on which dwelling you encounter, aside from you predictable class T4.

    I dont mind dwellings and think it’s a nice addition but what i was saying here was not the amount of T4s, rather the diversity in regards to races, the whole “sacrifice ” part. In the end all races summon horned gods or horrors, builds juggernauts or manticores that almost look the same. Compare that to Draconian Red dragons, dwarf steam tanks human air galley shadow demon lord goblin karagh etc the difference is significant.

    #172697

    Sorax
    Keymaster

    Hi Bouh, Jolly Joker, Yelok,

    @all: Please have a look on our forum terms of use:
    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/please-follow-our-terms-of-use/

    * Try to keep it nice. No swearing or cursing other forum users.
    * Don’t personally attack other users or use insults.
    * Stay on-topic.

    Request to follow the forum terms of use referring to:

    You are modifying my words and interpreting them as stupidly as you can aren’t you ? I feel like you are losing my time…

    Dude, all you try is making a fool of yourself – admittedly, with some success. […]
    If you want to impress someone with that bull, try elsewhere.

    @Jolly Joker
    You are not the center of the universe, I´m not trying to convince/impress you/them, what I´m trying to do is expand the perspective of the people with my words, because I have expanded my perspective with their words, that´s the goal of a dialogue.

    Talking with you is like “Look bud, I have the biggest pen…cil to write things”. Your ego makes you blind.

    While I do not think your posts are worth an official warning (not childish enough, flaming on a rather educated level 🙂 ), I will have a thorough eye on your future posts. Please avoid statements without ANY value added. After my post, I don’t want to read any remarks related to “you don’t read my posts/you don’t understand me/you are stupid”. Consider the possibility to agree to disagree.

    Besides of that: It might make sense to wait for the new expansion and continue this discussion afterwards.

    Regards,
    Sorax

    @BBB: What a tasty goat that was! 🙂

    #172705

    Gloweye
    Member

    I dont mind dwellings and think it’s a nice addition but what i was saying here was not the amount of T4s, rather the diversity in regards to races, the whole “sacrifice ” part. In the end all races summon horned gods or horrors, builds juggernauts or manticores that almost look the same. Compare that to Draconian Red dragons, dwarf steam tanks human air galley shadow demon lord goblin karagh etc the difference is significant.

    It’s the sacrifice part that I’m challanging. So we did indeed lose the following T4’s:

    Steam Tank (functionally changed to juggernaut…mortar >> fire Cannon + AoE, Broadside >> Steam + 1 hex more, but has no transport)
    Air Galley
    Shadow Demon Lord(which IMO has always been lame as a generic “big demon”)
    Kharagh
    And the following:
    Syron Forceship
    Leprechaun

    Of those, I only actually miss the Leprechaun and the Kharagh.

    But we got in return:

    Juggernaut(opposite to Steam Tank)
    Eldritch Horror(I admit, as generic as the Shadow Demon Lord)
    Horned God
    Stone Giant(maybe in changed for AoW1 halfling Giant? But that was a T3..)
    Fire Giant
    Frost Giant
    (New Dwelling T4)(Don’t remember if I can say yet..)

    Specs:
    Chtonic Guardian

    So that exceeds the SM amount of T4’s we lost if I’m counting correctly, and some are easier to get. And no, I count Manticores as 1 unit, not as 9 units because of 9 races.

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