Tier 4 Racial Units

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Tier 4 Racial Units

This topic contains 115 replies, has 28 voices, and was last updated by  Jolly Joker 7 years, 1 month ago.

Viewing 26 posts - 91 through 116 (of 116 total)
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  • #172711

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Fairy Dragon was lost too, but yeah

    #172715

    Bouh
    Member

    Now if you are able and willing to elaborate on why these concepts cannot ever work due to balance/gameplay mechanic/lore reasons – the floor is surely yours!

    I already did, but without the “ever” part. No one should say “ever” so lightly.

    If you give vagueish answers and don’t care to explain yourself when asked for, you should face the possibility that you might get misunderstood. And please, in the future, quote whole passages from my answers and not just single sentences without their context. Thank you.

    My answers are not vaguish. What words of yours did I corrupt in one of my answers ? My quotes of you were quite extensive already, and I at least didn’t reformulate them.

    #172716

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Bouh, let it go before you get in trouble :/

    #172720

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Hi, Sorax,

    thanks for the reminder.
    This one, though,

    Besides of that: It might make sense to wait for the new expansion and continue this discussion afterwards.

    seems a bit like a telltale, neh? 🙂

    I’m really curious, since I have trouble to envision a racial governance tied T4 (would make going for racial diversity a bit lame, if the T4s were good), which somehow leaves a Mystical City upgrade – a NEW one, as part of the Expansion – unlocking the chance to go for a racial T4.

    In that case, there were 9 additional T4s to behold, you wouldn’t have announced, yet, which, I think, would be amazing, considering that there isn’t much time until April, 14th.

    Be that as it may, you made me very curious, knowing, that, in my book, at least, and not wanting to schmooze you or Triumph, but just stating a fact, you have yet to make a wrong move with this game, so should you have decided to bring in something like this, chances are it will rock – which would make me keep quiet anyway, since that is what I said right in the beginning.

    So. I didn’t think I could get more expectant, yet, for the new expansion – but I was wrong. 🙂

    #172724

    Bouh
    Member

    Incarnate is the unit I miss the most, but devs said somewhere IIRC that it was mess to program.

    Now you know I’m not against more T4, I’m against *racial* T4 you build in your cities (in case it wasn’t clear). I’m not against more T3 either.

    #172725

    Joni
    Member

    I already did, but without the “ever” part. No one should say “ever” so lightly.

    I apologize if my “ever” somehow provoked you, which was not intentional at all and I certainly did not see that coming.

    As for you stating that you already did (elaborate), as far as I can tell you did not take into account the more recent inputs from hlsmith and Erathil which I was mainly referring to. They have brought in quite a few new ideas which haven’t been faced by substantial criticism so far. hlsmith even managed to – partially – draw Jolly Joker away from his original stance, and I’d be curious to see what you and other skeptical voices have to say to these things.

    After all, this is a discussion, and isn’t it a good sign that we have progressed from the original starting point since then?

    #172737

    Bouh
    Member

    Erathil’s proposal still include T4 produced from a city. Excluding class building is irrelevant, because you don’t need many cities producing T4, you only need one. And the biggest problem is that you can reach the T4 without researching anything, which free you to research anything else. And in cities, you can speed up production with hurry production, and unlike dwellings, a city can reach tremendous amount of production with all enchantments and the domain they can get.

    Also, most of his T4 are not racial units, they are creatures. AoW3 design exclude non racial units from racial line up. And AoW design exclude racial units from being T4 (since AoW1).

    The thing is that in AoW a powerful racial unit is a hero and that now racial line up don’t have creatures anymore because these are part of classes lines up.

    As for hlsmith’s idea, it’s interesting indeed and a good way to bring it. But it’s then more alternative or additional class T4 more than racial T4. Also, Eternal Lords will bring a lot of racial differences, so this will be covered.

    #172738

    Astraflame
    Member

    @gloweye And phase dragon, rock, basilisk, incarnate, doom wolf, chaos lord.

    Anyways, it’s not the amount ofT4s that i’m talking about that leads to the “sacrifice” of race flavor, it’s how and where they apply

    Juggernaut may be an evolution of steam tanks, but it’s available to all races cities and looks exactly the same for everyone. Steam tanks were unique to dwarves.
    You can only play one class at a time, so in the game you’ll only produce one unit plus the dwelling you may find (random) and can/wish to go with. Then you got the summons. This second point means that the actual T4 diversity each game will be lower than previously and the race influence is none existant.
    The last point is not solved by adding more T4s to the game but to let the race have impact on it. Like with race specific class units.

    The issue of class is not just T4s, T3s like warbreed is probably the worst if them all. Race specific class units idea would be super welcomed addktion.

    #172745

    Epaminondas
    Member

    seems a bit like a telltale, neh? :)

    I’m really curious, since I have trouble to envision a racial governance tied T4 (would make going for racial diversity a bit lame, if the T4s were good), which somehow leaves a Mystical City upgrade – a NEW one, as part of the Expansion – unlocking the chance to go for a racial T4.

    In that case, there were 9 additional T4s to behold, you wouldn’t have announced, yet, which, I think, would be amazing, considering that there isn’t much time until April, 14th.

    Be that as it may, you made me very curious, knowing, that, in my book, at least, and not wanting to schmooze you or Triumph, but just stating a fact, you have yet to make a wrong move with this game, so should you have decided to bring in something like this, chances are it will rock – which would make me keep quiet anyway, since that is what I said right in the beginning.

    So. I didn’t think I could get more expectant, yet, for the new expansion – but I was wrong. :)

    I think you misinterpreted Sorax; I don’t think he is implying that Racial Governance feature will yield – or yield something akin to – new racial T4s. He is probably merely saying that Racial Governance will create more 1) diverse and 2) powerful racial unit combinations, and that new diversity and power may sate some of your craving for more racial diversity and power.

    Now you know I’m not against more T4, I’m against *racial* T4 you build in your cities (in case it wasn’t clear). I’m not against more T3 either.

    My position is the same; I simply don’t want racial T4s; I do want more racial T3s and non-racial T4s (possibly even class T4s, though I am a bit divided on that).

    #172748

    Bouh
    Member

    and the race influence is none existant.

    This is very wrong, and will be even more with eternal lords.

    #172758

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ Epa
    Hmm, but everyone here knows that RG will add to racial diversity; people are advocating racial T4s, even though they know that.

    Anyway. Good policy to postpone discussions until after the addon, no matter what.

    #172760

    Astraflame
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Astraflame wrote:</div>
    and the race influence is none existant.

    This is very wrong, and will be even more with eternal lords.

    How so? There is only one race T4 and that is the manticore, it’s the minority. Eternal lords gave em something unqiue, it’s the same basic model for each race minus a different skin ride. With different units it’s not just abilities but aesthetics, that feels unique to the race.

    #172768

    Sorax
    Keymaster

    I think you misinterpreted Sorax; I don’t think he is implying that Racial Governance feature will yield – or yield something akin to – new racial T4s. He is probably merely saying that Racial Governance will create more 1) diverse and 2) powerful racial unit combinations, and that new diversity and power may sate some of your craving for more racial diversity and power.

    Even a little bit more generic: Why spend so much time on discussing smthg that might look different within less than 3 weeks? Might be worth to wait a little bit, see how the new features work, decide whether or not you like them and THEN discuss with all facts on the table 🙂

    #172772

    Eomolch
    Member

    My answers are not vaguish. What words of yours did I corrupt in one of my answers ? My quotes of you were quite extensive already, and I at least didn’t reformulate them.

    I didn’t say your answers are vague in general. I was referring to the part of your (earlier) post that you claimed I would delibaretely misunderstand:

    “Not break the game, change it into something else. You break a paradigm of the game that made AoW what it has been over all those years. You can’t say this is not a big deal.”

    While my reaction to it may have been somewhat provocative, it was perfectly legitimate in essence because frankly I still haven’t got the faintest idea what kind of paradigm you were talking about or how it could be related to the whole racial T4 discussion:

    “So you are saying T4 units being monsters or magical beings was (and is) the essence of the age of wonders series? Or what do you refer to, since clearly you can’t be talking about racial T4′s in general which always had been part of the series?”

    As for your accusation I would reformulate your quotes, I was only making guesses (and when I did, making it obvious that they were guesses) when I couldn’t quite make out what you meant with a statement (which e.g. was the case in the example above).

    I will rather leave the discussion now before I get to write some things I might regret later, but you should probably know that not everybody disagreeing with your opinion or just one of your arguments is your mortal enemy. Makes it much easier, trust me.

    #172775

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Epaminondas wrote:</div>
    I think you misinterpreted Sorax; I don’t think he is implying that Racial Governance feature will yield – or yield something akin to – new racial T4s. He is probably merely saying that Racial Governance will create more 1) diverse and 2) powerful racial unit combinations, and that new diversity and power may sate some of your craving for more racial diversity and power.

    Even a little bit more generic: Why spend so much time on discussing smthg that might look different within less than 3 weeks? Might be worth to wait a little bit, see how the new features work, decide whether or not you like them and THEN discuss with all facts on the table :)

    Well, I think even now that things are fine the way they are, so if they get even better my stance certainly won’t change, right?

    #172779

    Bouh
    Member

    How so? There is only one race T4 and that is the manticore, it’s the minority. Eternal lords gave em something unqiue, it’s the same basic model for each race minus a different skin ride. With different units it’s not just abilities but aesthetics, that feels unique to the race.

    This is not “Age of T4 units”. There are much more in the game than T4 units.

    “So you are saying T4 units being monsters or magical beings was (and is) the essence of the age of wonders series? Or what do you refer to, since clearly you can’t be talking about racial T4′s in general which always had been part of the series?”

    I do talk about racial T4 in general. They never have been. They always have been monsters and magical creatures.

    #172830

    Astraflame
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Astraflame wrote:</div>
    How so? There is only one race T4 and that is the manticore, it’s the minority. Eternal lords gave em something unqiue, it’s the same basic model for each race minus a different skin ride. With different units it’s not just abilities but aesthetics, that feels unique to the race.

    This is not “Age of T4 units”. There are much more in the game than T4 units

    Que? 😀 maybe go back to the ” very wrong” part and try again……

    #172859

    Bouh
    Member

    @astraflame : you are making a case against race differences (that the game lack of those) with the example of T4 units that are mostly monsters or machines with no differences based on the race.

    But there are many more things than T4 units in the game. There are already big differences between different races, and there will be much much more with eternal lords eventhough there won’t be T4 units specific to races.

    #172919

    Astraflame
    Member

    @bouh Sure there is, but the topic is about T4s, as you’ve said yourself monsters/machines are not influenced by the race, hence “none existant”
    . Previously monsters and machines were race influenced, the air galley was made by humans and Titans belonged with archons etc.
    It’s possible to bring some of that back through the class, like butchers replaced skewers the same could happen with certain class units.

    #172952

    Gloweye
    Member

    It’s possible to bring some of that back through the class, like butchers replaced skewers the same could happen with certain class units.

    I fail to see how this relates to Humans and Air Galleys. A butcher is a goblin with a big axe. However, if a dwarf has a blueprint, he should be able to make an air galley just as much as a human could with the same blueprint. That’s cause it’s a machine, not based on/influenced by race.

    Also, the niche of machines has left Humans and Dwarves, and has migrated to Dread’s. IF Air Galleys ever get implemented, it’s gonna be a Dread unit, not a Human one.

    #172969

    Erathil
    Member

    Okay, I hadn’t read this thread before posting my ideas. I did this on purpose, so my list wouldn’t be colored by previous opinions and we’d end up with a wider range of units in this thread. Now I’ve read through everything and found that it’s mostly a somewhat ugly, cyclical debate.

    I know I probably shouldn’t but I’m going to go into what I think of racial tier IVs.

    At the heart of the issue, for me at least, is race diversity. When AoW III shipped the races seemed extremely similar, almost to the point of being cosmetic. I’ll admit that things have gotten much better since then through Golden Realms, patches, and some of the upcoming Eternal Lords features, but there seems fairly little to distinguish the races right now. Tiers one and two are largely mirrors of each other, and a lot of each race’s character comes from their tier III unit, which is hands-down the most unique thing in their arsenal.

    I would like to see more of that. More asymmetry among the races. More character. More unique things influencing how they play. More unique things influencing the feel of the race.

    I don’t think the game frankly needs it, but I think it would be really fun. Additional tier IIIs would be awesome, probably even more so than tier IVs.

    I think these additional high tier units could do some fun things for game balance. They all introduce options. Some work well with given classes by playing to their strong-suits, but you always have to measure that against covering for short-comings. If well designed, they could add a whole new level to gameplay.

    A thought occurs on how to impliment racial tier IV units. I still really like the idea of having an explorable treasure site unlock the necessary building (the random map generator would default to placing these like Seals of Power, in places designed to funnel multiple factions into contention. It limits the total number of tier IV-capable cities while creating engaging game play and higher-stakes territory control), but the system could also include racial governance features.

    Essentially, either the ultimate or penultimate tier of each race’s governance tree would come with an additional perk. Regardless of what perk you choose, it would also unlock the production of a race-specific building. It could offer a small buff to build units or defensive combat-effect, like the special SM structures, and it would also unlock racial Tier IVs in combination with the treasure structure (or, possibly, it could unlock an additional racial tier III unit). It’s useful on its own, but it’s also a progression roadblock that would assure that racial tier IVs aren’t unlocked too soon. It would also influence race governance policies; do you rush one or work on multiples?

    #172989

    Astraflame
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Astraflame wrote:</div>
    It’s possible to bring some of that back through the class, like butchers replaced skewers the same could happen with certain class units.

    I fail to see how this relates to Humans and Air Galleys. A butcher is a goblin with a big axe. However, if a dwarf has a blueprint, he should be able to make an air galley just as much as a human could with the same blueprint. That’s cause it’s a machine, not based on/influenced by race.

    Also, the niche of machines has left Humans and Dwarves, and has migrated to Dread’s. IF Air Galleys ever get implemented, it’s gonna be a Dread unit, not a Human one.

    Well “previously” this was the case , as for increasing race diversity i can’t think of any other race than human, human dread most likely.

    #172991

    Erathil
    Member

    I tried very hard to keep my tier IV suggestions racial and not monsters or machines. I cheated on a couple, but they’re still within the parameters set by the Tigran Sphinx.

    The Hydra is the closest to a true monster, but I thought of an alternative option today…

    Draconian Awakened
    Lore: Draconians are descended from dragons by sorcery and mutilation. Since their birth many of the race have striven to retake some of the lost splendor and power of their dragon ancestors. None have yet achieved true dragnhood, but some have come close. The Awakened, as they call themselves, have unlocked more of their draconic potential through years of ritual and meditation. They are not true dragons, but they have become more than common draconian.
    Practice: Awakened are tier IV irregulars. They look like SM draconians, with more reptilian features. They’re also significantly larger than common draconians, with wings like the flyers. However, Awakened cannot fly. Instead, they have the Wings of Flame special rule; when activated the Awakened empower their wings, gaining flying movement for one turn and leaving a wake of fire behind them, doing fire damage to every hex they pass over (and adjacent hexes). They gain Fearsome on any turn they turn they use Wings of Flame. Additionally, they have Fire Breath like a fire dragon. They have good defense and resistance but unimpressive melee damage; to get good effects from them will require careful use of their tactical abilities. They can use Fire Breath on the same turn as Wings of Flame, but doing so wastes their Fearsome ability and leaves them without mobility or big damage for the next couple turns.

    Like I mentioned in my first post, these are just fun to think up.

    There does seem to be an assumption running through a lot of this thread that I think should be addressed. Not all tier IV units are created equal. This is true of every tier, and we should expect variations ranging from, say, halfling Eagle Rider to Shadow Stalker. Racial tier IVs wouldn’t make class tier IVs obsolete. If they’re properly designed, they’ll take a good while to obtain and come with an opportunity cost that would make other investments attractive, if not necessarily superior.

    @Eomoloch
    I like your ideas! There ended up being a number of similarities, but we gave them different abilities. That’s what I like about these threads! You get to see a lot of neat possibilities.

    @hlsmith
    This is a neat idea, but I’m kind of intimidated by just how many units would need to be created to fill it. It’s attractive, though; my favorite class units are the ones that vary based on the race that builds them, and the game could certainly use some more of those. I’ve had ideas for Spider Queens and Centaurs that could fit into class line-ups and vary by race, but that’s for another thread.

    @bob5
    Oh, drat, you’re right. Stupid halflings, always ruining my evil plans! Now I need to think up another name… what’s a synonym for adventurer that captures the quixotic insanity of the profession?

    #173067

    Bouh
    Member

    I would like to see more of that. More asymmetry among the races. More character. More unique things influencing how they play. More unique things influencing the feel of the race.

    You will have a lot of this in eternal lords. I guarantee you this.

    #173083

    Have the racial governance things been revealed yet? It’s just that I get the feeling that Bouh and I are arguing from a privileged position which doesn’t do alot to help this debate…

    #173095

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Nope.

    However, everyone who read the corresponding news article and the discussion would have no option except coming to that conclusion, since it was clear that this was tailormade for that purpose exactly.

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