Too early access to Ghoul Curse via Deathbringer too powerful – for all Classes!

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Too early access to Ghoul Curse via Deathbringer too powerful – for all Classes!

This topic contains 159 replies, has 20 voices, and was last updated by  Jolly Joker 6 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #220043

    NINJEW
    Member

    repair machine is a pretty big deal midbattle dude, unlike any other heal it has no cooldown

    which means you can’t nuke a treb out, plus dread can negate the fire weakness

    #220044

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    MCI will just remove these easy to get t3 units out of the conversion game. Will this nerf Necro? Sure, slightly, but it will also prevent what you define as a serious IMBA. What you wish is for Necro to keep the advantages as a class, but remove it from Necro heroes, how is this fair to players who chance up on a Necro her??

    I specifically said that Hatmage’s solution has the advantage of being so flexible that you don’t have to decide about a specific balance change (which you do), but can do everything you want. What is ALSO possible with that solution, is YOUR suggestion – but you can do a lot more, should this be called for.

    So there is no reason to further discuss this, since yours is just a special case of the range of options Hatmage’s solution allows.

    #220045

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    repair machine is a pretty big deal midbattle dude, unlike any other heal it has no cooldown

    which means you can’t nuke a treb out, plus dread can negate the fire weakness

    The difference is, you don’t nuke the Trebs with a different hero, but the Dread first.

    #220047

    ExNihil
    Member

    And yet you keep discussing 😃

    #220062

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I’m not discussing, but rebutting.

    #220067

    Whether it’s “balanced” or not isn’t decided by whether it was a prevalent strategy.

    It is. If the strategy was as overpowering as you claim it to be, people would go for it, not just by chance of getting a Necro, but putting effort in to get one. A strategy that is so unbalanced and that it massively increases your victory chances will see a lot of play. The Necro hero ghoul one does not.
    It sees the same play as any other valid strategy based around some chancy elements.

    It doesn’t feel RIGHT,

    Yet during the lead-up to EL, a lot of people specifically asked for these things because they felt right and necessary for them.

    Frankly I think this is the big sticking point. It’s neither OP, nor more unbalanced than many other things. But you don’t like it. It doesn’t fit the symmetry and your design preferences. An d the Necro as a class that is very different from the others triggers that feeling for you a lot.
    And you now try to frame it as balance issue to validate your gut feeling. It simply is a preference. Nothing more, and the fact that people feel different about it, and especially found the things that now feel wrong to you integral to Necromancy done right, shows that.
    The well of souls exist solely to allow other classes ghoul armies, ghoul course exists to allow people to raise their enemies. Deathbringers lack MCI so other classes can dabble. That is by design and it’s working insofar that it allows every class to add some undead to their roster.
    And you know what? Unembalmed ghouls without the Necros empire upgrades aren’t good. they are mediocre and to gain them you have to kill their better, living counterpart with a specific unit first.
    To get the critical mass of them takes some effort, and a strategy that rewards effort appropriately is good to have in a game. Like all the others.

    #220080

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Whether it’s “balanced” or not isn’t decided by whether it was a prevalent strategy.

    It is. If the strategy was as overpowering as you claim it to be, people would go for it, not just by chance of getting a Necro, but putting effort in to get one.

    That’s not true – in fact it’s complete bollocks – because you can’t put effort in. The only effort you can put in is rejecting a perfectly fine hero in the hopes of getting a Necro offered, but there is no guarantee that will happen – in fact chances are AGAINST you – and every turn you reject an otherwise perfectly usable or even well-complementing hero is wasted and actually LOST!
    In short, since there is nothing guaranteed, it doesn’t pay to “put effort into it”.
    That leaves the cases when in fact a Necro is offered turn 1, which is 1/7 I’d guess. Also, Necro players don’t count.
    Then there is Autocombat. You can’t tell your Necro hero to try and control the Deathbringer in Autocombat. You also can’t tell your army to be extra careful and pick the right situation for the control effort, making sure the hero survives. Which means, not only is there no guarantee for a payoff – there isn’t even a guarantee for a TRY – nor for a survival of the hero (if you don’t play with resurgence).
    Lastly, ghouling away, you need a way to heal the fraggers, which means you need to get either an Archon dwelling (possible, depending on settings) or Control more undead (again questionable).
    So in autocombat MP this isn’t a viable strategy because it involve too many factors outside of player control.

    Now, that doesn’t mean, it’s not possible with manual – and I wasn’t aware that balance for SP and PBEM doesn’t matter – you seem to think so, which is very arrogant.
    So that whole line of argumentation – can’t be imba, isn’t played in MP – is simply crap.

    It doesn’t feel RIGHT,

    Yet during the lead-up to EL, a lot of people specifically asked for these things because they felt right and necessary for them.

    Frankly I think this is the big sticking point. It’s neither OP, nor more unbalanced than many other things. But you don’t like it. It doesn’t fit the symmetry and your design preferences. An d the Necro as a class that is very different from the others triggers that feeling for you a lot.
    And you now try to frame it as balance issue to validate your gut feeling. It simply is a preference. Nothing more, and the fact that people feel different about it, and especially found the things that now feel wrong to you integral to Necromancy done right, shows that.

    Are you dabbling with mind-reading now? These are just assumption without any valuue.

    The well of souls exist solely to allow other classes ghoul armies,

    And there I thought it would allow Necro Class to heal their Ghouls and ghoul the units you may get as rewards.

    ghoul course exists to allow people to raise their enemies.

    And there I thought it existed to allow level 7 and higher Necros and Class Necro players who pruduce Deathbringers to do it. [/quote]Deathbringers lack MCI so other classes can dabble. That is by design and it’s working insofar that it allows every class to add some undead to their roster.[/quote]That is the biggest bullshit I read so far in this forum. There is the Archon dwelling (1), there are Necros (2), and if you can get your hands on both you CAN dabble as much as you like and use Well of Souls just fine. What you do NOT need for that is a goddamm controled Deathbringer that starts bringing in Ghouls, preferably from turn 15 onwards.

    And you know what? Unembalmed ghouls without the Necros empire upgrades aren’t good. they are mediocre and to gain them you have to kill their better, living counterpart with a specific unit first.

    Dude, you don’t even know how Inflict Chouls Curse WORKS, for frag’s sake!And YOU know what? Ghouled units raised after battle are GREAT, because you don’t have to pay for their production or summoning. They have 1 less resistance than their counterpart and cannot regenerate, but they are immune against most everything, Blight, and a lot of cold and gain vulnerabilities from that. It’s not like you’d PRODUCE the units, then make them worse – you are just ADDING them, like summoning them, except you pay only upkeep. If you don’t see the advantage of that, play another game.

    To get the critical mass of them takes some effort, and a strategy that rewards effort appropriately is good to have in a game. Like all the others.

    It doesn’t take “effort”. The Deathbringer in combination with chance is doing all the work. If it DID took effort – which is what this is all about, I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

    Also: you might want to read the posts correctly first next time you write something – the proposed solution would actually make the Deathbringer and Necro Hero Inflict Ghoul Curse ability a once-per battle ability, while a (mid game) Necro Class tech ONLY would bring Necro heroes and Deathbringers to the current Inflict Ghoul situation, so everyone could STILL go Necro – they just couldn’t Ghoul 4 units off one battle with 1 Deathbringer or Necro hero, but just ONE per combat. Necro Class players, however, could STILL do it – they could even pull the Control Deathbringer stunt – only AT THAT GAME STAGE Deathbringers just couldn’t ghoul more than unit per game.

    #220099

    I seriously don’t see why this is any worse than beelining for convert with a dwarf theocrat hero and getting super t-3 armies by turn 10 or 11. Or getting several King serpents. Or manualing a full stack of exalted martayrs or lesser stalkers. Hatmages solution involves a lot of work (creating a whole new lesser ability that is confusingly similar to another ability) to nerf not only a single pbem strategy but also the standard necro adjunct hero ghoul curse stuff.

    Lesser reanimate undead, for example, was only invented because the ability of any necro reanimator to keep bringing back high tier units.

    If people were to change something, it would be mci. That is simple, easy, and understandable. Not that I think it is necessary anyway.

    #220100

    Ericridge
    Member

    No. I like my deathbringer from tombs to be available whenever I feel like putting in the effort to get a small undead horde. This option exists to lure all other people over to the dark side.

    And Necromancer hero only have a single 20 hp heal to keep his undead horde alive until he finds a place to restore them at fast pace. And those ghouls tend to have to be used conservatively. THat’s not all cuz ghouls isn’t free, they all have upkeep cost something which you fail to mention.

    Are you gonna lead the charge of nerfing Dread Siege from Warlord cuz it gives the warlords alot of juggernauts too? And Age of Deception as well? That can give rogues juggernauts.

    Know what will be the result of your demands of nerfing necromancer’s ability to raise undead horde as a hero just cuz someone kicked ur butt?

    Noone will recruit a necromancer anymore.

    #220107

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Admittedly it wouldn’t be an issue, if Inflict Ghoul Curse was a ONCE-per battle thing.

    However, this would obviously a big nerf for Necromancer CLASS, and with everyone vehemently arguing about Necro being too weak (and just getting buffed) the idea to nerf the Necromancer CLASS would be somewhat strange.

    However, the Necromancer as a CLASS would be nerfed only insofar that early controlled Death bringers couldn’t Ghoul any number of units in one combat but just one (and Necro heroes, too, until later).

    The other classes, though would lose, the ability to ghoul more than one unit per combat and ghouling unit, which is only fair. They could still ghoul an army – just not 4 units in one combat, which, if you are honest is IMBA, especially when it happens in turn 16 or so.

    By the way, Eric, your line or argumentation isn’t coherent.
    1) Juggernauts and Age of Deception are LATER game stuff; this is about EARLY game stuff.
    2) It’s not because someone kicked my butt. It’s – among others – because a Theocrat ghouled FOUR good units after a barely won battle with a sole surving Deathbringer in autocombat, ending up with a better army than before. If he had survived, ghouling ONE unit, ok. But FOUR? Ridiculous. Shouldn’t be possible. Is without parallel in the game, especially not at that early a stage.

    #220114

    NINJEW
    Member

    It is. If the strategy was as overpowering as you claim it to be, people would go for it, not just by chance of getting a Necro, but putting effort in to get one. A strategy that is so unbalanced and that it massively increases your victory chances will see a lot of play. The Necro hero ghoul one does not.
    It sees the same play as any other valid strategy based around some chancy elements.

    eh. i dunno if this is a valid argument. to my knowledge people aren’t exactly discussing their pro 1337 PBEM or SP strats as much as it happens with live MP, and this is a strategy which kind of relies on being able to manual your fights (or get very, very, very lucky, i suppose). it could just not be prevalent simply because very few people who have tried it decided to share it. PBEM is also a bit less competitive than live MP is, generally, so there might not be as many people who are searching for ways to break the game mechanics. plus the slow pace of PBEM makes developing strategies for it a little difficult: your new strategy takes months to bear fruit!

    The difference is, you don’t nuke the Trebs with a different hero, but the Dread first.

    i mean it’s not like dreadnoughts are the most survivable hero type or anything (did i mention that i was rushed by a theo army? pretty sure i did)

    #220195

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I made a couple of pics to prove my point which I can post, if desired. Dwarven ArchDruid, tight map (M, 8 players).
    Attacking the Throne City of a Tigran Sorcerer (Snare Net built; also the spell in place that gives you damage in the town radius:
    Defending forces: 3 Heroes (main among them) 2 Tigran Chariots, 2 Mystics, 2 Tigran Apprentices, 1 Node Serpent, 1 Phantasm.
    Attackers:
    1 Hell Hound (living)
    Dwarven contingent with: Leader Main ArchDruid, 1 Prospector, 1 Axeman, 1 Forge Priest, 1 Firstborn, 2 Hunters; (7 units)
    Undead contingent with Leader Necromancer, 1 Ghouled Goblin Evangelist, 1 Deathbringer, 2 Reanimators, 1 Ghouled Storm Sister, 1 Archon Archer. (7 units)
    15 units all in all.

    Battle was shown as closely matched.

    My after battle forces are:

    1 Hell Hound
    Dwarven Contingent: Leader Main ArchDruid, 1 Firstborn, 1 Forge Priest, 2 Hunters (5 units)
    Undead contingent: Leader Necromancer, 1 Deathbringer, 1 Reanimator, 1 Ghouled Storm Sister, 1 Ghouled Tigran Apprentice, 1 Ghouled Mystic, 1 Ghouled Rogue hero, 1 Archon Archer (8 units).

    #220200

    ExNihil
    Member

    The well of souls exist solely to allow other classes ghoul armies, ghoul course exists to allow people to raise their enemies. Deathbringers lack MCI so other classes can dabble. That is by design and it’s working insofar that it allows every class to add some undead to their roster.
    And you know what? Unembalmed ghouls without the Necros empire upgrades aren’t good. they are mediocre and to gain them you have to kill their better, living counterpart with a specific unit first.
    To get the critical mass of them takes some effort, and a strategy that rewards effort appropriately is good to have in a game. Like all the others

    This is a convincing argument IMO.

    Simplest solution is to make death bringers rarer.

    #220203

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    No, it’s nonsense. He isn’t even aware that the unit inflicting the Ghoul Curse doesn’t have to kill the victim.

    The point he misses completely is that this is not about any Class can hire a Necro and play with undead – we had the Archon dwelling all along, so that’s nothinng new. Also Necro HEROES gain Inflict Ghoul Curse only at Level 9 which takes time and effort.

    Which changes if you control a Deathbringer (or more than one, imagine that). If you control a Deathbringer early, it’s not about allowing people to dabble a bit with undead, it becomes an avalanche.

    The Produce Deathbringer tech costs 800 Research, and you have to spend roughly the same amount to unlock it. It’s supposed to take some time, until Deathbringers enter the fray.

    #220214

    ExNihil
    Member

    Look, its either change Deathbringer, change its appearance in early game or change the tech tree. I don’t find the tech tree option good because it will take out the Necro strategy for non-Necro players out of the game completely. Adding MCI would do the same, so this leaves the likelihood of finding Death Bringers on strong and epic sites, which is easy to tweak and will have the smallest negative impact. What do you actually want? It seems to me you want Necro to keep its edge but to take the ghoul curse option away from non-Necro players who don’t have a level 9 Necro hero. Correct? I dislike this and don’t think its good.

    #220225

    Ericridge
    Member

    By the way, Eric, your line or argumentation isn’t coherent.
    1) Juggernauts and Age of Deception are LATER game stuff; this is about EARLY game stuff.
    2) It’s not because someone kicked my butt. It’s – among others – because a Theocrat ghouled FOUR good units after a barely won battle with a sole surving Deathbringer in autocombat, ending up with a better army than before. If he had survived, ghouling ONE unit, ok. But FOUR? Ridiculous. Shouldn’t be possible. Is without parallel in the game, especially not at that early a stage.

    It is coherent in my eyes.

    1) It still grants access to class units to a class that won’t have them otherwise and gain new units out of no where. Which is a reason why you made this thread.

    2) You realize that theocrat had good luck? Such is the whims of Random Number Generator. You say it shouldn’t be possible but the fact that battle has occured and granted four ghouls show that it is a possible outcome.

    Now don’t forget that the deathbringer which barely survived is likely within oneshottable range. Initiate combat and toss a fireball to kill the deathbringer in question and suicide your lone scout. Now theocrat has lost his only source of ghoul recruitment.

    It isn’t without parallel. Bards, evangelists, Theocrats, Rogues, etc all can charm/seduce/convert. It’s equivalent is running to a gold mine with six bards at minimum and successfully charming every single enemy onto your side. And this method is technically easier to do than ghoul cursing which requires the enemy unit to die for it to be risen as your loyal puppet.

    This can be done in any fight that has units that isn’t MCI.

    #220232

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Let’s see.
    I have no problem with any class developing a Necro hero to level 9 and start to Ghoul Curse units, because developing a SECONDARY hero to level 9 isn’t all that easy, and you have to invest into it. That’s not my problem at all.

    My problem is the fact that a Level 3 Necro hero amy Control a unit with Ghoul Curse EARLY. If you do manage that, you have such a powerful weapon EARLY at your disposal that you will stop at nothing to make things roll.
    6 Bards you have to produce. You will lose one or another. A Deathbringer come for free and Ghouls for free – early (by the time you can take a tomb). And it’s not unlikely that you gain control over a second one.
    In manual combat you can keep them alive and all, and Reanimators are not that rare.

    So THAT is my problem: early access to a unit that is very powerful and costs 1500-1600 research to unlock.

    #220236

    ExNihil
    Member

    So changing its prevalence and where it appears would solve this.

    #220241

    Fenraellis
    Member

    For what little it’s worth, Ghoul Curse on a Necromancer hero comes at level 9, not 7. Just felt that needs correcting, since I’ve seen it mentioned as being available at level 7 multiple times during this thread.

    Level 7 is pretty good, though, with Energy Drain and Enfeebling Fever.

    #220250

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Thinking about it … Deathbringers aren’t good as Neutral Defenders anyway: if you play against them, exploring, Ghoul Curse is worthless for them/doesn’t make things more difficult for you, since it only strikes when you lose the fight anyway; and in that case you’ve lost the battle, and if there were units Ghouled – who cares?

    Which means, you can simply ELIMINATE the Deathbringer from all neutral structures and replace them with Lich Kings or Bone Collectors or even T3 Ghouls, which would solve the issue.

    #220253

    ExNihil
    Member

    But that would simply eliminate earlier ghouling entirely. Shifting them to legendary / mythical sites would work, or giving them a 15-20 turn spawn in bone yards / necromantic circles will work as well.

    #220261

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Yes, that would eliminate earlier Ghouling entirely.
    The way Inflict Ghoul Curse works now it’s pretty unique and absolutely powerful. Way too powerful.

    Earlier access would need to make it once-per-battle.
    That, however, would be a definite nerf for the Necro Class.

    Of course it might be a nerf needed, but that would remain to be seen.

    #220267

    That’s not true – in fact it’s complete bollocks – because you can’t put effort in. The only effort you can put in is rejecting a perfectly fine hero in the hopes of getting a Necro offered, but there is no guarantee that will happen – in fact chances are AGAINST you – and every turn you reject an otherwise perfectly usable or even well-complementing hero is wasted and actually LOST!

    But here’s the thing. If the Necromancer tactic would be as brokenly OP you say it is, that would be worth it. With the 3 chances per hero recruitment you have a good chance to get a necro during your first turns and a very high chance to get one with the second round of heroes.
    If the ghouled army additions aren’t worth that small risk, then they’re not really that impactful, are they?

    In short, since there is nothing guaranteed, it doesn’t pay to “put effort into it”.
    That leaves the cases when in fact a Necro is offered turn 1, which is 1/7 I’d guess. Also, Necro players don’t count.
    Then there is Autocombat. You can’t tell your Necro hero to try and control the Deathbringer in Autocombat. You also can’t tell your army to be extra careful and pick the right situation for the control effort, making sure the hero survives. Which means, not only is there no guarantee for a payoff – there isn’t even a guarantee for a TRY – nor for a survival of the hero (if you don’t play with resurgence).
    Lastly, ghouling away, you need a way to heal the fraggers, which means you need to get either an Archon dwelling (possible, depending on settings) or Control more undead (again questionable).
    So in autocombat MP this isn’t a viable strategy because it involve too many factors outside of player control.

    And here you list all the downsides and problems with it. Taking these risks and mitigating all these downsides is the effort put it. Even if it requires manual combat, what do you feel should be the adequate payoff for all these troubles here? And why is the ghoul reward that much more?

    Now, that doesn’t mean, it’s not possible with manual – and I wasn’t aware that balance for SP and PBEM doesn’t matter – you seem to think so, which is very arrogant.

    This is you putting words into my mouth and projecting to fight a strawman. I think balance is quite important, but I also do think that not every potentially effective strategy is unbalanced, and so far you haven’t show how what you claim to be OP is actually more than that.
    I’m not disagreeing with you about balance, I’m disagreeing with you about what is too far outside.

    So that whole line of argumentation – can’t be imba, isn’t played in MP – is simply crap.

    Ninjew put it a bit better than you:

    eh. i dunno if this is a valid argument. to my knowledge people aren’t exactly discussing their pro 1337 PBEM or SP strats as much as it happens with live MP, and this is a strategy which kind of relies on being able to manual your fights (or get very, very, very lucky, i suppose). it could just not be prevalent simply because very few people who have tried it decided to share it. PBEM is also a bit less competitive than live MP is, generally, so there might not be as many people who are searching for ways to break the game mechanics. plus the slow pace of PBEM makes developing strategies for it a little difficult: your new strategy takes months to bear fruit!

    People do discuss these thing. Less than MP tactics, but people stream, youtube and post on here, on the Steam Forums, on something awful and a number of other places on the web about their SP and PBEM experiences. Also EL and PBEM have been around for a while by now. And effective tactics spread. Many people will try to copy good strategies they see used against them.
    And the lack of “recruit necro, go zombie apocalypse” practically everywhere is indicating that this particular strategy while certainly not bad, might just not be as much of a powerplay as JJ thinks it is.

    Are you dabbling with mind-reading now? These are just assumption without any valuue.

    It is rather easy when the mind in question wrote its thoughts on the internet.

    The well of souls exist solely to allow other classes ghoul armies,

    And there I thought it would allow Necro Class to heal their Ghouls and ghoul the units you may get as rewards.

    No, that’s what Embalmers Guild and Lich Aura exist for. And if wells of souls were for Necros, the conversion and healing would have found a good place on corrupted springs of life for example. No, the Well of souls is a generic map location for a reason, and that reason is not the Necromancer.

    Also you should go back and read the threads for all the pre-EL necromancer announcements, many of the things you reject here were talked about in them and actually asked for.

    Dude you don’t even know how Inflict Chouls Curse WORKS, for frag’s sake!And YOU know what? Ghouled units raised after battle are GREAT, because you don’t have to pay for their production or summoning. They have 1 less resistance than their counterpart and cannot regenerate, but they are immune against most everything, Blight, and a lot of cold and gain vulnerabilities from that. It’s not like you’d PRODUCE the units, then make them worse – you are just ADDING them, like summoning them, except you pay only upkeep. If you don’t see the advantage of that, play another game.

    No, it’s nonsense. He isn’t even aware that the unit inflicting the Ghoul Curse doesn’t have to kill the victim.

    Fun stuff, accusing me of lack of knowledge and accidentally professing the same in the same paragraph.

    OK, I worded that wrong. You don#t have to kill the unit with the ghoul curse. You just have to engage the target unit (hopefully a powerful one) in melee with either the Deathbringer, who is not that powerful stat-wise or the leveled Necromancer hero, before the target unit dies. Then if that attack doesn’t kill it (the preferable outcome) you have to soak the retaliation, and maybe more then one, unless you put tactical effort in to negate it. And then you need to do the same thing again on the next unit you want to ghoul, and hopefully have your Deathbringer survive all of that.
    Small difference.

    Actually the ghoul penalty is 1 Defense, not 1 Resistance, a stat that is attacked quite a bit more often. Also extra spirit weakness.
    What You see as strong resistances, I don’t. Blight is the most commonly and easily resisted type anyway, so you will rarely get into situations where the resistance is a major factor against smart enemies, while cold is the rarest type to be inflicted, whereas fire is the most common and spirit is a type that is like cold not too often resisted, but a bit easier to gain.
    The major resistance bonus for ghouls I consider the immunity to some effects, and that is still IMHO something that at best makes them situationally on par with their living selves.

    And true, you don’t have to produce them, but the price for that is the gamble of combat, and the damage you take, to get a weaker version of a unit that costs still the same upkeep. A trade that is altogether positive, but needs to be weighted against the effort and cost to actually do it.

    Also: you might want to read the posts correctly first next time you write something – the proposed solution would actually make the Deathbringer and Necro Hero Inflict Ghoul Curse ability a once-per battle ability, while a (mid game) Necro Class tech ONLY would bring Necro heroes and Deathbringers to the current Inflict Ghoul situation, so everyone could STILL go Necro – they just couldn’t Ghoul 4 units off one battle with 1 Deathbringer or Necro hero, but just ONE per combat. Necro Class players, however, could STILL do it – they could even pull the Control Deathbringer stunt – only AT THAT GAME STAGE Deathbringers just couldn’t ghoul more than unit per game.

    Please consider taking your advice for yourself, it does apply.

    So please allow me to ask: what is the problem with ghouling 4 units? I suppose that means the Deathbringer needs to have won and fought in melee with each one, probably getting damaged and such and yet through tactical cunning of its player still surviving all these fights? Seems kinds unproblematic, as if the Deathbringer is such a major factor, there was certainly major effort to kill it off that was thwarted?

    The Produce Deathbringer tech costs 800 Research, and you have to spend roughly the same amount to unlock it. It’s supposed to take some time, until Deathbringers enter the fray.

    So THAT is my problem: early access to a unit that is very powerful and costs 1500-1600 research to unlock.

    Do you think that is a good price for the Deathbringer? Do you think the Deathbringer as you suggest validates the research and building investment?
    I mean we are talking about a unit that, besides ghoul curse, is just slightly stronger than a berserker yet takes a ton of extra research and 2 extra class building to recruit at more than twice the production price.

    #220280

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Well, I’ve still thought for a while that Death Bringers should have Mind Control Immunity, due to being a T3 unit-conversion unit, like Evangelist, Succubus, and to a much lesser degree Shaman.

    Ghoul Curse from a Necromancer Hero, while stronger than Convert/Seduce from Theocrat/Rogue(due to Despair access, and multi-triggers), at least requires a higher level.

    #220293

    ExNihil
    Member

    What will happen if Ghoul Curse rolls against defense? This us precedented with Inflict Haywire already and most t1/2 units have higher defense than resistance.

    #220298

    Zaskow
    Member

    What will happen if Ghoul Curse rolls against defense?

    Indirect nerf. Despair couldn’t provide increased possibility to ghouling.

    #220301

    ExNihil
    Member

    Got a point there!

    #220303

    Ericridge
    Member

    Let’s see.
    I have no problem with any class developing a Necro hero to level 9 and start to Ghoul Curse units, because developing a SECONDARY hero to level 9 isn’t all that easy, and you have to invest into it. That’s not my problem at all.

    My problem is the fact that a Level 3 Necro hero amy Control a unit with Ghoul Curse EARLY. If you do manage that, you have such a powerful weapon EARLY at your disposal that you will stop at nothing to make things roll.
    6 Bards you have to produce. You will lose one or another. A Deathbringer come for free and Ghouls for free – early (by the time you can take a tomb). And it’s not unlikely that you gain control over a second one.
    In manual combat you can keep them alive and all, and Reanimators are not that rare.

    So THAT is my problem: early access to a unit that is very powerful and costs 1500-1600 research to unlock.

    A necromancer rolling into a tomb that early is likely to be still very killable and frail. It’s still a high risk move. Deathbringer can resist the attempted control and murder necromancer in return. What are you gonna do? Reload save and try again? Then at that point, control undead shouldn’t be removed just cuz some people who spam reload save thinks its op. Dude probably reload save after every failed battle so he can have 100% win rate.

    And I have used level 3 necromancers at turn 30 to obtain an archon titan. Sadly it won’t work on bone dragon but archon titan is good enough. by turn 100, that archon titan eventually grew to have over 200 hp. I liked that. I don’t want it gone.

    Also, you could just set up an house rule saying no control undead on deathbringers. So that other people can continue to have their fun forming mini undead hordes if they feel like it. At the moment you are attempting to do your best to make the game less fun for me and I don’t like it at all.

    Dev intervention is completely unnecessary for something which can be done via house rules.

    #220306

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Well, I’ve still thought for a while that Death Bringers should have Mind Control Immunity, due to being a T3 unit-conversion unit, like Evangelist, Succubus, and to a much lesser degree Shaman.

    Ghoul Curse from a Necromancer Hero, while stronger than Convert/Seduce from Theocrat/Rogue(due to Despair access, and multi-triggers), at least requires a higher level.

    Giving them Mind Control immunity would work as well.

    @ferrus_animus
    The way I read your post, we are now in agreement about the fact that live MP is invalid to gauge whether this is OP or not, simply because it relies on too many things outside of player control with Autocombat.
    Which leaves manually controlled battles.
    Here we have to make a difference between playing Necro and everyone else.

    To show that the actual situation is just not good, we have to setup only the following two situations:
    1) You play Necro. That means you start with one and can get them to level 3. You will get Reanimators for sure. That leaves only, finding a site with a defending Deathbringer – which actually may or may not happen early; let’s assume, it doesn’t happen early (that is, as soon as you can take a tomb, which may be QUITE early, up to turn turn 25 at most) or, if it does happen, you can’t control the Deathbringer.
    2) You play a different Class and a Necro is offered (what I find a rather good compromise is picking the turn 1 hero in any case and then try and go for something specific turn 10+) turn 12 at the latest; you work him up a level. If you are a healer Class Ad or Theo, for example) or have otherwise healing powers, you can keep the Necro much better alive than the Necro itself, so that works to your advantage. You find a Tomb, take it and you Control the Deathbringer.

    Rule of thumb now says this: if you have no access to an Archon dwelling (where you would produce Casters), try to Control a Reanimator or Caster for every undead stack you Ghoul, which isn’t that difficult, since there are plenty of sights with them around. It’s certainly easier to Control Undead with a mercenary Necro and Control more that Heal Undead than playing the other way round with a Necro.
    However, if you compare 1 and 2, a meeting of the two at around turn 30 may see Necro’s opponent with an undead Army as well that can match the part of his he’s leading.

    It shouldn’t be possible that a non-Necro Class is out-ghouling the Necro.

    Now, instead of arguing against my suggestion to remove the chance to early Ghoul a lot of units, you should just go ahead and try things yourself, both with a Necro and with a different Class (conveniently in SP). Might be an eye-opener. I mean, ghouling a couple of T3 defenders in that early stage is pretty powerful.

    One last thing. I can imagine that the array of Convert against Ghoul ability was balanced due to the fact that the Ghoul stuff has no direct effect in battle, while a conversion will directly influence the battle balance – so to make up for that Ghouling wasn’t limited in use.
    This is POSSIBLY (I couldn’t say) balanced in autocombat, but in manual it’s a problem – all the more one, the earlier it starts.

    #220310

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    A necromancer rolling into a tomb that early is likely to be still very killable and frail. It’s still a high risk move. Deathbringer can resist the attempted control and murder necromancer in return.

    It’s not. Not when you know what you are doing, at least, which is what I assume here. So that assumption doesn’t work.

    And I have used level 3 necromancers at turn 30 to obtain an archon titan. Sadly it won’t work on bone dragon but archon titan is good enough. by turn 100, that archon titan eventually grew to have over 200 hp. I liked that. I don’t want it gone.

    Did I say anywhere I want Control Undead gone or moved? No? IN that case – why are you making that point? It has no relevance whatsoever.

    Also, you could just set up an house rule…

    That would work for every problem, no matter which one: MAKE A HOUSE RULE. Therefore the point has no relevance either.

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