Too early access to Ghoul Curse via Deathbringer too powerful – for all Classes!

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Too early access to Ghoul Curse via Deathbringer too powerful – for all Classes!

This topic contains 159 replies, has 20 voices, and was last updated by  Jolly Joker 6 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #220628

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Personally, I don’t care about what solution is preferred, provided there is one. There are a couple of suggestions, and which one to take is a question of how to balance the game.

    Leaving the Control of a Deathbringer out of the picture, EVERY class can develop a Necro to level 9 and Inflict Ghoul Curse, but only the Necro can produce units with that ability – albeit quite late, as late as a Warlord can produce Warbreeds.

    Controlling a Deathbringer early is a very big “joker” in the game, and I think, that the possible impact of whether the joker trumps or not (whether you can control a DB early or not) is too high, especially since the rest of the conversion units is so sealed off from those stunts.
    So it’s the combo early/big impact/every class that seems a problem. I mean, if every class had a chance to get Evangelists early, by hiring a Theocrat, or a Succubus by hiring a Rogue – would that really be fun?
    So why would it be fun with DB and Necro?

    #220642

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well there have been multiple solutions already so why are you guys keep fighting?

    Solutions:

    1. Change the prevalence of death bringers and.limit these to either high tier sites or give them a 20 turn spawn timer.

    2. Change control undead to level 5 on heroes/leader

    3. Give DB MCI – not good IMO

    4. Change DB to have ghoul curse through tech – also not good IMO

    5. Change ghoul curse to physical channel

    Anything else?

    #220647

    JJ, you have been needlessly insulting in this thread multiple times now.
    You have been ignoring arguments you had no reply for and mischaracterized others to try and disprove them. You have repeated contested ones without any added validation, you have made claims, repeated them and neither backed them up nor characterized them into something that could even be engaged into any conclusive manner.
    You keep attacking those that disagree with you, instead of trying to engage their arguments and you displaying ignorance, either willful or from lack of mental faculties, when you lack arguments. It is very clear you are not arguing in good faith.

    You are wrong, but I wont try longer to tell you, because it is very obvious you do not want to see, nor care about it, you simply want to have your right opinion validated, no matter if it actually is.
    You simply are too disgusting a person to converse with.

    Necromancer heroes are incredible for Theocrats and pretty good for everyone else except (IMO) Dreadnought.

    Even for Dreads. Choking Fumes is quite good when it’s asymmetrical, and frost tanks work very well with ghouled frostlings.

    The strength of Necro heroes is that they open up an option (undead army) that simply is hard to break into otherwise. That option is a lateral shift from normal, but not a better one, except, as with everything in AoW3, situationally.
    However, most heroes have some aspects that if taken a similar situational advantage of are similarly efficient. And those that don’t work as a force multiplier of similar power when given suitable support. The Necro is different and allows different things, but that is not the same as being overpowered. And as the most designed class that was most made to be different it sticks out far more than the other kinds of heroes, because they are a lot more similar to each other. But that doesn’t make them weaker.
    AoW3 is asymmetrical to a degree, and the Necro is one of the bigger asymmetries in it. But that is a very different thing from being unbalanced.

    Meanwhile you keep making a bigish deal about the Deathbringer being at risk of death. But the Deathbringer’s stats (60 HP, 11 Def 11 Resist) are better than an Evangelist and identical to a Succubus, and both of those units give up their entire turn while standing at melee or close range to trigger their conversion. The DB also has Tireless, so you can just park it in guard mode and nobody can AP drain it. The Deathbringer also does more damage than a Succubus, not that it really matters, because you aren’t using the unit for damage. The Deathbringer is basically a way to trigger conversion checks, and the way to do that is teleport behind the unit and spin them around so they can’t strike back. Unless you are simply terrible at this game, or exclusively play autocombat, you should be able to procure a huge number of units from doing that. It’s like getting to roll Seduce multiple times from a single Succubus instead of having to bring multiples.

    Ok, I try to abstract it a bit.

    Let’s say you have a number combat resources in a fight. These combat resources represent your units, spells and what they can do. They are the damage you deal, debuffs you inflict, healing you do, positioning, etc…
    The same is true for the opposing side, though they might have a differen value of combat resources.

    Let’s say you have 150 combat resources (CR) and you fight 5 enemy units that would take 20 combat resources each to kill.

    Example A: Evangelist/Succubus trying to convert one of these enemy units
    – Walk up and try conversion (spending part of your CR)
    Option 1: Failure
    – The target unit is still an enemy that needs to be dealt with.
    – You spent 20 CR in addition to the CR value of the conversion attempt to kill it.
    Option 2: Success
    – The target unit and its 20 CR are lost to the enemy and added to your force. You now have added CR from the converted unit and need not spend CR to kill it.
    – Depending on what you converted that was a favorable trade.
    – You also get the permanent addition of that unit to your forces on the strategic map.

    Example B: Deathbringer
    – Walk up and attack (spending CR)
    — Take retaliation, costing you CR (healing),
    — or alternatively spend additional CR to prevent the target unit from guarding or retaliating.
    As the attack cost the DBs turn, both of these require you to spend CR from a second unit. In the case of being able to shadowstep-flank, that requires the target unit to have attacked or otherwise being brought out of guard mode, which also costs CR. So already we have spent more CR on a single conversion than in the other example.
    No divergence: Success or Failure
    – The target unit is still an enemy that needs to be dealt with.
    – You spent 20 CR in addition to the CR value of the conversion attempt to kill it. Lessened by the CR value of the DBs attack.
    – You also get the permanent addition of that unit to your forces on the strategic map, as a weaker ghoul version.
    – You also can try on the next unit.

    This is what I talk about. On a pure combat equivalency equation, each Deathbringer ghouling costs the effort of a failed conversion of any other converting unit, without the chance to get the added boost of the converted unit during the fight. On a unit by unit cost, it requires more force brought to bear to successfully convert a unit as a ghoul.
    The compensation for that is that you have multiple attempts (technically domination has that too), and that you deal more damage attempting that with the other traits (Dominate and Control Undead deal damage on failure and Charm adds the shaken debuff).

    I see both methods as having advantages and disadvantages, and not one as strictly more powerful. Also due to the delivery method of melee attack the DB is more endangered than the flying Succubus or the Evangelist with ranged conversion, making the similar statline less durable in general.

    #220652

    Lykus
    Member

    Well there have been multiple solutions already so why are you guys keep fighting?

    Solutions:

    1. Change the prevalence of death bringers and.limit these to either high tier sites or give them a 20 turn spawn timer.

    2. Change control undead to level 5 on heroes/leader

    3. Give DB MCI – not good IMO

    4. Change DB to have ghoul curse through tech – also not good IMO

    5. Change ghoul curse to physical channel

    Anything else?

    6. Nothing changes

    I just added these because alot of people don’t see a problem here.

    #220661

    lucidorf
    Member

    I see both methods as having advantages and disadvantages, and not one as strictly more powerful. Also due to the delivery method of melee attack the DB is more endangered than the flying Succubus or the Evangelist with ranged conversion, making the similar statline less durable in general.

    Well, I believe you could argue that the more you outrank the opposition, the better the Deathbringer will be in comparison to the Succubus or the Evangelist. I.e. if the outcome of the battle is already given, then the seduce/convert benefit is reduced. What is the strength to get a unit right away if that unit has no chance to contribute during the combat. Likewise, the threat of being in melee range can be reduced if you have the means to kill/block the enemy units in time, or if you have some other means to protect your Deathbringer (e.g. the Safeguard spell).

    #220669

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    JJ, you have been needlessly insulting in this thread multiple times now.

    I disagree about the “needlessly” because you are behaving like a real dick. It’s obvious that this issue is in fact an issue, and you make only claims, without ever supporting them with hard facts. Now that I asked you to enlighten us what the “costs” of that oh so hard “strategy” were – you don’t answer, no; you play the offended and fake disgusted. You have NO POINTS, the only thing you say is that Deatbringers are weak and in danger to die and that Ghouls are weak also and cost more that they are worth.

    Fine. Whatever.

    #220673

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Well there have been multiple solutions already so why are you guys keep fighting?

    Solutions:

    1. Change the prevalence of death bringers and.limit these to either high tier sites or give them a 20 turn spawn timer.

    2. Change control undead to level 5 on heroes/leader

    3. Give DB MCI – not good IMO

    4. Change DB to have ghoul curse through tech – also not good IMO

    5. Change ghoul curse to physical channel

    Anything else?

    6. Nothing changes

    I just added these because alot of people don’t see a problem here.

    Name the lot.

    #220759

    Lykus
    Member

    Well there have been multiple solutions already so why are you guys keep fighting?

    Solutions:

    1. Change the prevalence of death bringers and.limit these to either high tier sites or give them a 20 turn spawn timer.

    2. Change control undead to level 5 on heroes/leader

    3. Give DB MCI – not good IMO

    4. Change DB to have ghoul curse through tech – also not good IMO

    5. Change ghoul curse to physical channel

    Anything else?

    6. Nothing changes

    I just added these because alot of people don’t see a problem here.

    Name the lot.

    Not gonna get involved. Just read thread.

    #220763

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Just have to say, because this has been brought up a couple of times, but…:

    especially if we want to let non-Necro leaders start the zombie apocalypse.

    Do we really, though?

    Isn’t that kind of the point of having a specific Necromancer class in the first place?

    #220768

    quo
    Member

    However, Gloweye has just pointed out that the Deathbringer does not abide by this rule. I.e. the moment you have a Deathbringer (or more), then you can theoretically grab every Evangelist you see.

    Yes, well, because of that I am now even more firmly convinced that Deathbringers absolutely should have MCI, because Ghoul Curse is even better than I thought. I thought, at least, that GC abided by the rule that MCI units were off limits. Now that I know it can potentially grab anything that doesn’t have 100% Spirit protection (and even that is negotiable with certain debuffs) it is very obvious that that a unit with this ability should not be able to be converted.

    #220777

    quo
    Member

    This is what I talk about. On a pure combat equivalency equation, each Deathbringer ghouling costs the effort of a failed conversion of any other converting unit, without the chance to get the added boost of the converted unit during the fight. On a unit by unit cost, it requires more force brought to bear to successfully convert a unit as a ghoul.

    Only if you look at this problem in the context of a single tactical battle. The long term situation favors the Deathbringer, particularly, a Necromancer player with an early Deathbringer.

    Let’s look at a single Evangelist. It gets one roll of Convert per battle. If it hits, you get the unit immediately, if it fails, the enemy suffers a -Move penalty for one round. The Evangelist gives up its full turn to roll the dice.

    Now, a Deathbringer. Stats virtually identical to an Evangelist except it gets Tireless and 100% Blight protection. Its convert ability gets to roll against any enemy the Deathbringer hits. That hit comes with damage. You don’t need to swing 3 times to get the effect, just once, and this is a unit with a Teleport ability that lets it jump behind enemies so they can’t retaliate. At a minimum, you should be able to do this to one unit per combat, matching the Evangelist’s long term procurement rate.

    But wait–you get to roll against as many enemies per combat as you can manage, not just once. Then you get to carry those new, increasingly strong units with you to the next battle. Unlike the Evangelist there is no MCI restriction on what you can claim. If you can kill it, you can potentially keep it. Unless you are in the habit of constantly losing node fights, you can go in with the assumption you are going to win the fight. (If losing node fights is what’s happening you have way bigger fish to fry than anything we can cover here.) If you can’t take a node right away, build up to what you need and then attack.

    The only real restriction is lack of ability to heal. That is why I think this strategy works best for a Necromancer, to support the free army with Reanimators.

    It does require you to find a Deathbringer and succeed at the convert roll (I suppose you could leave and come back if it fails). But no game should depend so heavily on a single die roll.

    #220780

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    That’s one of the questions I wanted to address in this thread.

    If we leave the control Deathbringer stunt out of the equation, we have the situation that a hired Necro can do the same things than the Necro Class minus the tech (which is true for all Classes); that includes an ability to start the Zombie apocalypse when the hero reaches level 9. Mercenary Necromancers can control undead as well, however most of them are Archons and therefore Dedicated to Evil. A Well of Souls would allow to give a mercenary Necro hero its very own entourage, if so desired (which isn’t so different from what you do with other Classes). With an Archon dwelling in reach, hiring a Necro makes a lot of sense, no matter what.
    The difference to the Class gets deeper when the Produce Deathbringer tech becomes available for it, because THEY will get the Zombie apocalypse really going – except, of course, that most independents and especially those in the vicinity will already be dead. However, they are of course a pretty neat tool for town sieges with their shadowstep and the ability to ghoul parts of the garrisons, which means that if a Necro comes with Deathbringers to a siege, a tough battle may not weaken him at all.

    No matter who gains early control over a Deathbringer, Necro or any other Class with a Mercenary Necro, it should be obvious that THIS allows an early start of the Zombie apocalypse. Not only that, it also allows to Ghoul other converters like Evangelists and Succubae (the latter guarding Ziggurats with Assassins, if I’m not completely wrong), which can be of use to classes who normally don’t have access to them; the fact that they will be Ghouls in that role, is irrelevant: what THEY convert, is living, and if you use them with care, even without Heal Undead unit you can use a Well of Soul now and then to replenish their Health.

    I know how tempting it may be to retain such a feature, belittling the actual chances to pull off something like that, as Ferrus_Animus tries to do, claiming that it would be a strategy that needed planning and all, and you’d need a reward – but that’s actually just a claim,. and I miss prove. The truth is this: for the Necro class it’s a zero investment: you’d play that way as a matter of cause: if you see a Tomb in range, you’ll send a guy to look at defenders, and if they include a Deathbringer you will make note of the defender strength and try to get the force necessary to explore it, picking Control Undead for (one of) your Necro hero(es) at least. You’d explore a Tomb anyway, trying to control something there, but a Deathbringer is an ideal target with the additional bonus that it isn’t Dedicated to Evil (which may be advantageous depending on your actual orientation).
    So a Necro will go for this anyway and no matter what.
    Is there any difference for other Classes, if they have a Necro? Not, if they have one: they will clear the Tomb the same way than they will without one – except with a level 3 at least Necro the clearing force will include that Necro and try to Control a DB in that Tomb (and in others as well).
    Which means, the only real difference is:
    a) do you get the opportunity to hire a Necro or not
    b) the decision to not reject a Necro, if one is offered or even
    c) the decision to reject a different hero in the hopes to get a Necro

    c) is a matter of interpretation. Imo, you should “have a play” with all heroes, and I think I have described in the initial part of the post, that you do have a play with a Necro, no matter what. It SHOULDN’T be so good, though, that as Non-Necro Class you would actually reject a perfectly fine hero, because getting a Necro would be an advantage (you can still do it, of course, for fun).
    This also makes sense with regard to a) – Necro shouldn’t stick out so much that it was a big advantage, being lucky and get one offered.

    That leaves b) and the decision to reject one, if offered. There may be strategy reasons to reject a specific hero – but here the same is true as with the other points, only in reverse: a hero class shouldn’t be worse than all the others. And a Necro certainly isn’t, they are just a bit different. That could be said about Dread heroes as well, and they obviously work, even if you can’t start the machine apocalypse with a lone Dread hero. It’s a matter how you view a Necro and their ups and downsides.

    I don’t think you need the carrot of an early deathbringer in your face to use a Necro advantageously, after all THEY are living.

    So the question remains: is there any good reason to allow the chance of getting the Zombie apocalypse going in the early game stages – for everyone?

    #220784

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    The only real restriction is lack of ability to heal. That is why I think this strategy works best for a Necromancer, to support the free army with Reanimators.

    It does require you to find a Deathbringer and succeed at the convert roll (I suppose you could leave and come back if it fails). But no game should depend so heavily on a single die roll.

    1) You may get more than one chance to control a Deathbringer.
    2) There are enough Reanimators around (Necromantic Circles, Lost Libraries…) plus Archon Casters have Heal Undead as well, that’s why I said, once your Necro controlled a Deathbringer, his job is twofold: a) keep the DB alive via Heal Undead; b) Take control over units with Heal Undead. Also, your problems in that regard are virtually over when you have an Archon dwelling around.

    So while the Necro Class has RELIABLE healing, the others may struggle – but they have also a clear target. For the other Classes, there is also the added plus that a DB may Ghoul an Evangelist or Succubus which would give them access to recruit additional LIVING units as well…

    #220815

    quo
    Member

    …there is also the added plus that a DB may Ghoul an Evangelist or Succubus which would give them access to recruit additional LIVING units as well…

    Yeah that right there is more than enough to convince me that this unit must have MCI.

    I was messing around with Ghoul Curse today and, on my way to fight a Warlord, cleared a bunch of sites, grabbing about 2/3rds of the enemies per site. Granted, that was with a legit leveled up Necro hero. But duplicating that with an early, stolen Deathbringer wouldn’t be hard. The Deathbringer actually has better stats early on than heroes do and common sense tells you to start by clearing easy nodes before working up to harder stuff.

    #220838

    lucidorf
    Member

    Do we really, though?
    Isn’t that kind of the point of having a specific Necromancer class in the first place?

    Personally I must say that it sounds like a fun thing to do when you goof around and has more or less already won. I mean, I do not see anything wrong with that a Theocrat has a horde of mindless zombies as followers.

    Now, having said that, then I do not want it to be the one “strategy” that a non-Necro leader go for the moment he gets his hands on a Necromancer hero. I see it as a gimmick, a little fun thing you can pull off to spice up the game. You add something outside of the box, just to make this play-through more interesting and different from your previous runs.

    This finally raise the question if the mind controlled Deathbringer is a gimmick today or if it is a severe imbalanced and overpowered strategy?

    Well, frankly I have no clue what so ever. I play non-competitive single player games for fun and profit. I just prefer AoW 3 to be as strange and asymetrical as is possible, but it should hopefully be without alienating those players who prefer a balanced multiplayer game.

    #220840

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ lucidorf
    You CAN do that without a deathbringer – just get the Necro up to level 9 and you can raise as many undead as you like as a Theocrat or Dread or whatever.
    If you start turn 15, though, the whole thing turns upside down. I can assure you, there ios nothing gimmicky about an early-controlled Deathbringer – the guy is fully up to its name.

    @ quo
    Yes, but of course it depends a bit on the lay of the land. With a Necro it’s easier because you already have Reanimators, so you have greater healing power. With another Class, you must be more careful and try to find Necro Circles and/or Lost Libraries to try and control yourself one or two or find a tomb with an Archon Caster or an Archon dwelling in addition to starting the Ghouling process, so you have two goals.

    #220872

    lucidorf
    Member

    You CAN do that without a deathbringer – just get the Necro up to level 9 and you can raise as many undead as you like as a Theocrat or Dread or whatever.
    If you start turn 15, though, the whole thing turns upside down. I can assure you, there ios nothing gimmicky about an early-controlled Deathbringer – the guy is fully up to its name.

    Yes, and I understand your point. Though…

    Personally I sort of doubt that the non-Necro leader’s healing advantage will overshadow the advantage one player will get from pure random luck with the dice roll and the map layout. I.e. my gut feeling is that the main advantage will not be who can heal the Necromancer the best, but rather who first finds a site with Deathbringers and gets the control to take on them. Sure, a Necro-leader will probably have less healing, but then again he should have two Necro-heroes, which means two shots at controlling the precious Deathbringer.

    Regardless, if early access to Deathbringers has a big impact of the outcome of the game, as you assure me, then I am more and more leaning to quo‘s stance with that “MCI” on Deathbringers is the way to go.

    If necessary, the compensation could be to shuffle Necromancer’s “Inflict Ghoul Curse” to level 7.

    #220884

    There are lots of things you can do in manual that are like this. An easy example is with the human AD. If you find one of the wild animal pit places and wait/have the defenders set on strong, you can use nets to easily farm t-3 mature serpents. A good/lucky player could have a whole evolved stack of King Serpents with the leader by turn 20 or so.

    That only requires an AD hero, a particular site, and nets. Just as the deathbringer requires a necro hero, a particulr site, and spirit breaking (or nets).

    Scoundrels and martyrs (especially the tipple shot halflings) can be evolved super early, and Orc crusaders + stone skin are basically invulnerable without facing guard breaker or dispel.

    #220923

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    *Sigh* It’s not the same thing.
    What you have to compare isn’t Befriend Animal vs. Control Undead; what you have to compare is Befriend Animal vs. Control Undead (Necro) PLUS Inflict Ghoul Curse (Deathbringer). The problem isn’t Controling an Undead unit, the problem is controling a Deathbringer who in turn can farm an army in no time, includding Evangelists, Succubae, Bards, Manticores, Warbreeds, Berserkers – whatever the hell it hits.

    #220932

    ExNihil
    Member

    I agree with you this seems IMBA, solutions have already been elaborated.

    Perhaps a nerf to Inflict Ghoul Curse is due – not allowing it to affect MCI capable units. Alternatively a switch to the physical channel will make remove it’s synergy with inflict despair and will allow high defense units to quite easily escape Ghouling, thus removing the option of amassing t3/4 units with ease.

    #220936

    Gloweye
    Member

    Perhaps a nerf to Inflict Ghoul Curse is due – not allowing it to affect MCI capable units.

    Sounds like a bad idea to me….it’s a direct nerf to basically every Necro just to limit a fun strat?

    Give Deathbringers MCI instead, problem solved just as well. Still leaves King Wraiths and other goodies to Control Undead out of there.

    #220941

    quo
    Member

    Perhaps a nerf to Inflict Ghoul Curse is due – not allowing it to affect MCI capable units. Alternatively a switch to the physical channel will make remove it’s synergy with inflict despair and will allow high defense units to quite easily escape Ghouling, thus removing the option of amassing t3/4 units with ease.

    IMO that’s too harsh a nerf. Just give Deathbringer’s MCI and you eliminate the entire issue.
    – Other recruitment units (who are worse than Deathbringers at recruiting as it stands) already get MCI
    – The Deathbringer already has immunity to Seduce, Convert, Charm, and Dominate (I think so on that last one anyway, Dominate doesn’t show up anywhere until late). Giving it MCI only adds Control Undead and Necro Aura to that list. I don’t think any mid to late game strategy, where the Deathbringer belongs, relies heavily on being able to mind control Deathbringers. If anything it gives the Necro one more leg up against Theocrats, which they could use. I guess a valid criticism is it also makes Necro/Necro a little more stale, but I don’t think this one tweak creates too much of an issue.

    Basically this is a situation that just shouldn’t be possible. There is good justification for the Deathbringer to have MCI; lots of class T3 units have it, including all of the recruiter units sans Bard, and all of them had a lot more to “gain” from it because they aren’t natively immune to most of what MCI protects against anyway.

    #221103

    JJ, it must really hurt your ego to have someone disagree with you, as you keep attacking and insulting me even after we stopped discussing. Please behave like a civilized human being and stop it.

    Well, I believe you could argue that the more you outrank the opposition, the better the Deathbringer will be in comparison to the Succubus or the Evangelist. I.e. if the outcome of the battle is already given, then the seduce/convert benefit is reduced. What is the strength to get a unit right away if that unit has no chance to contribute during the combat. Likewise, the threat of being in melee range can be reduced if you have the means to kill/block the enemy units in time, or if you have some other means to protect your Deathbringer (e.g. the Safeguard spell).

    True, but that is a different strategic element that the part you quote forgoes explicitly.

    The question you put and that would require an answer then is “What is an appropriate downside to the ability to convert multiple units in a single fight, and how does the number of downsides the Deathbringer is saddled with to have it measure up?”.
    And I would like an answer that is a bit better thought out than “(almost) everyone else has MCI” or “It’s imba”.

    And well, who says the unit has no chance to contribute? A converted unit will in bigger fights have a decent amount of contribution, if conversion is used as a tactical tool and not just a method to nab the last survivor (Something a lot of people have told me to be the preferred approach).

    Now that I know it can potentially grab anything that doesn’t have 100% Spirit protection (and even that is negotiable with certain debuffs) it is very obvious that that a unit with this ability should not be able to be converted.

    Degenerate (and with a lot of luck, Pandemonium) is the only way to make a 100% spirit protection vulnerable. It the opponent lacks wild magic or CP, spirit immunity is immunity to GC. Also certain types of unit have inherent immunity for no reason.

    And allow me the question: Why is it so important to make and keep units unconvertable?

    Only if you look at this problem in the context of a single tactical battle. The long term situation favors the Deathbringer, particularly, a Necromancer player with an early Deathbringer.

    This line of argumentation is a rebuttal to your claim of

    There is no tradeoff in combat strength.

    So I gather we have reached an agreement that there is a loss of combat strength when utilizing the DB, if we limit the view to a single tactical battle?

    That leaves us to argue about the strategic level. In which we have to contrast the acquisition of X converted unit to Y ghouled units.
    Now both types have the same advantages and drawbacks to procurement (no production cost, yet full upkeep) and ghouled units have the added drawback of being slightly weaker (intentionally to compensate for the added number of them as claimed by devs).

    So what would be a fair rate of X to Y? Consider that more forces mean a military and strategic snowball effect, while also restricting economic growth due to binding more funds. Consider also that Y is intended to create a certain snowball effect zombie apocalypse by design and as a desired aspect by a significant number of players (as easily visible in the Necromancer preview threads).

    The only real restriction is lack of ability to heal. That is why I think this strategy works best for a Necromancer, to support the free army with Reanimators.

    It does require you to find a Deathbringer and succeed at the convert roll (I suppose you could leave and come back if it fails).

    I find it kinda funny that given the points made, healing is the only real restriction, and not a restriction at all. And so are all other downsides to the DB. Yet all all the upsides are always there, always significant and never situational.

    But no game should depend so heavily on a single die roll.

    I have bad news for you.
    A lucky early quest giving you a T4 or something of similar power. A conversion roll by a bard or necro against a T4 giant/titan. Cosmic events. The roll to see if the metropolis next door is friendly enough to immediately offer open borders or hostile and declares war. The random chance if you start with 2-3 griffon riders or 0.

    The game is seeded with lucky single rolls that can decide games. There’s literally a ton of them.
    This one is no different. It’s just one of many, many lucky and chancy things that can alter the game.

    So maybe here two alternate solutions:
    – Move the Necromancer Hero’s Control Undead ability up to level 5.

    – Reintroduce “Drain Will” from Shadow Magic and give it to the Eldritch Horror, Bard, Exalted and Nymph.

    #221107

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    JJ, it must really hurt your ego to have someone disagree with you, as you keep attacking and insulting me even after we stopped discussing. Please behave like a civilized human being and stop it.

    I’m doing that because you are arguing dishonestly; you make claims without giving proof, you don’t answer to specific questions, you cherry-pick certains quotes, pull them out of context and interpret them in a way you don’t like, and all for the sole purpose of keeping a completely OP stunt to pull or not to pull in the game, which doesn’t make sense.

    And WHATFOR, I ask? Why are you insisting on belittling the harsh effect the Controling of ONE single unit early in the game has? There is no denying the harsh effect. There is also no denying the fact that everyone can do it – and as early as the Necro Class itself, if they get a Necro offered. Why insisting on keeping something not only completely OP, but also completely against every lore and roleplay aspect, if suddenly everyone gets an incentive to “go Necro”? That reduces the Necro Class to not more than a specialization that everyone can pick. Or a race, for all I care.

    There is also absolutely NO COST WHATSOEVER. You don’t have to take any really special care like you have to with Convert and Charm and Befriend, in case it doesn’t work. No it’s an Inflict ability, and therefore you don’t have to risk a lot, you can just pick your targets and use the DB abilities.

    And, best, you claim it’s adownside because the fast rising upkeep is eating up your economy. Surprise, surprise, if you don’t want them, you can dismiss them, can you?

    So can you answer that? What is your interest here?

    #221128

    Sorax
    Keymaster

    I disagree about the “needlessly” because you are behaving like a real dick.

    Hi Jolly Joker,

    Please have a look on our forum terms of use:
    http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/please-follow-our-terms-of-use/

    * Try to keep it nice. No swearing or cursing other forum users.

    Consider this post your first warning, 3rd one will come with consequences.

    In case you feel another user should also receive a warning, please find me on Steam, we can discuss this.

    However, please always consider the posibillity to agree to disagree.

    BR,
    Sorax

    #221131

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Isn’t there an important difference between telling someone he’d BEHAVE like this or that and he’d BE this or that? At least that’s my understanding of it.

    Anyways, no discussion needed, this is a gaming forum and not a semantics seminar, alright, alright.

    #221174

    lucidorf
    Member

    True, but that is a different strategic element that the part you quote forgoes explicitly.
    The question you put and that would require an answer then is “What is an appropriate downside to the ability to convert multiple units in a single fight, and how does the number of downsides the Deathbringer is saddled with to have it measure up?”.
    And I would like an answer that is a bit better thought out than “(almost) everyone else has MCI” or “It’s imba”.

    I do agree.

    As I replied to quo, I do not buy that Deathbringer’s should have Mind Control Immunity simply due to other “Mind Control”-units have it. I strongly suspect that MCI for those units is a way to avoid chain reactions during tactical combat that can turn the tide disproportionally fast.

    The only reason why I accept immunity on Deathbringers is for the sake of balance, and even there I attach a disclaimer. I do not have an opinion if it is imbalanced or not, since the way I play AoW 3 ensures that I never experience these situations. Ignorance is a bliss, eh?

    Now, if there is indeed a balance issue, then I do accept that something should be done. Not due to I want it. Hell no. I belong to that group who loved when my Sorcerer could spam lesser elementals from the start. The more asymetrical the game is, the happier I am. However, I am not about to let my “fun” ruin the game for others.

    In short, would it not be good if developers looked into this and just gave a final verdict if this is a balance issue or not?

    #221179

    ExNihil
    Member

    I really don’t see the point of you guys arguing – you have different opinions, no new information has been brought here in more than a page iirc, and all the solutions that have been mentioned have already been mentioned in pages 1-2. The devs will no doubt make their own mind, and I think we have done what we could in this thread, all the rest of the arguments about who is “right” and what is the “truth” are redundant IMO.

    I will now leave this thread permanently, ciao.

    #221949

    freese2112
    Member

    However, Gloweye has just pointed out that the Deathbringer does not abide by this rule. I.e. the moment you have a Deathbringer (or more), then you can theoretically grab every Evangelist you see.

    Yes, well, because of that I am now even more firmly convinced that Deathbringers absolutely should have MCI, because Ghoul Curse is even better than I thought. I thought, at least, that GC abided by the rule that MCI units were off limits. Now that I know it can potentially grab anything that doesn’t have 100% Spirit protection (and even that is negotiable with certain debuffs) it is very obvious that that a unit with this ability should not be able to be converted.

    Just my own empirical evidence – I’ve got a SP game running with a Warlord with Defenders set to strong where I was able to recruit two Necromancer hero’s. I have never played Necro, but after reading though this I thought I’d give the Deathdealer strategy a shot just for fun. I was shocked with how asolutely shyte-fire ridiculous it is and how fast you can have your own shambling ghoul horde. Over a relatively short period of time, I was able to ghoul multiple T4’s (Orc Manticore Rider, Fire Giant), and it wasn’t unusual to ghoul multiple units in one battle. Because there was are a ton of Re-Animators on the map at treasure sites it’s easy to get additional undead healing. And even if you don’t, the ghouls are “free” units that you can “use and discard” as a meatshield without any resource investment, and likely replace in the same battle.

    Obviously – SP is “different” because you’re much more likely to win the clearing engagements, and there typically isn’t a response. In the case of Conversion, while it’s an immediate force shift in the battle, there are a ton of options (Break Control, Dispel, kill the converter, etc.) to counter that. With Ghoul Curse, it tends to be irrevocable and there is a “momentum” when clearing that is REALLY powerful. Obviously, if you’re not winning the battles – the Ghoul curse doesn’t matter, and in of itself it has zero impact on the individual battle being fought. The power comes with the extra units for the next battle, especially if you’re manually fighting out the battles and can “cherry pick” the prime units to ghoul.

    #221955

    ExNihil
    Member

    I agree. I am playing Necro Draconian in PBEM right now and finally took possession of a Deathbringer a few turns ago, since then I have been ghouling shit left and right, including t4 units and it is fairly early in the game. This is as broken as dwellings used to be, in the period where you could get a fire dragon in less then 10 turns sometimes.

    But there is a problem here. IMO this is one of the core strengths of Necro, and much more so of Necro heroes for non-Necro players. What do Necro heroes bring in to a normal army? Not really a lot IMO, they got some useful skills, but they are not very very good until its levelled, and they make decent fighting units, against some opponents, but rather crappy ones against others. Their main focus is on undead units, and until they are really levelled they don’t bring in much. As for Necro doing this, it is a core part of the class. Less effective in MP, but still very much there – you create cadavers, you control undead and you ghoul shit out, and it works well. Access to early Ghouling is probably the biggest thing a Necro hero can offer a player ATM, it’s an IMBA strategy, but it is also a huge thing for Necro itself.

    As such I think Inflict Ghoul Curse should be moved to level 5 or 6, making Hero units your ghoul tank. This will push the Ghoul Curse much earlier into the game when there aren’t any Deathbringers to be found around, and it will make Necro more solid. At the same time I suggest that Deathbringers themselves will be given Mind Control Immunity. This will prevent non-Necro players from having multiple Ghouling units, unless they hire and cultivate specifically Necro heroes for this purpose. This will also push-back Necro ghouling until mid-game effectively, thus resolving the problem.

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