Too early access to Ghoul Curse via Deathbringer too powerful – for all Classes!

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Too early access to Ghoul Curse via Deathbringer too powerful – for all Classes!

This topic contains 159 replies, has 20 voices, and was last updated by  Jolly Joker 7 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #221966

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    What do you think is Control Undead for? There are enough undead running around. Everything is completely fine except the fact that you can control Deathbringers.
    If you allow a Necro Hero level 5 to start the Ghouling rage you can just as well leave everything as it is.

    Keep in mind that a Necromancer is supposed to fight with UNDEAD, not with regulat troops, and as such Necros are pretty fragging good. If you hire one, you can try to Control them an army (and get them for example Lesser Reanimate) or you can Ghoul them one or try to set up a mix. There is a lot of synergy.
    Starting to Ghoul at level 9 is perfectly fine.

    #221972

    freese2112
    Member

    I agree. I am playing Necro Draconian in PBEM right now and finally took possession of a Deathbringer a few turns ago, since then I have been ghouling shit left and right, including t4 units and it is fairly early in the game. This is as broken as dwellings used to be, in the period where you could get a fire dragon in less then 10 turns sometimes.

    But there is a problem here. IMO this is one of the core strengths of Necro, and much more so of Necro heroes for non-Necro players. What do Necro heroes bring in to a normal army? Not really a lot IMO, they got some useful skills, but they are not very very good until its levelled, and they make decent fighting units, against some opponents, but rather crappy ones against others. Their main focus is on undead units, and until they are really levelled they don’t bring in much. As for Necro doing this, it is a core part of the class. Less effective in MP, but still very much there – you create cadavers, you control undead and you ghoul shit out, and it works well. Access to early Ghouling is probably the biggest thing a Necro hero can offer a player ATM, it’s an IMBA strategy, but it is also a huge thing for Necro itself.

    As such I think Inflict Ghoul Curse should be moved to level 5 or 6, making Hero units your ghoul tank. This will push the Ghoul Curse much earlier into the game when there aren’t any Deathbringers to be found around, and it will make Necro more solid. At the same time I suggest that Deathbringers themselves will be given Mind Control Immunity. This will prevent non-Necro players from having multiple Ghouling units, unless they hire and cultivate specifically Necro heroes for this purpose. This will also push-back Necro ghouling until mid-game effectively, thus resolving the problem.

    Just my $.02 – but in SP the #1 thing that Necro hero bring is Stiffen Limbs. They start with it, and it’s the most SIGNIFICANT force multiplier among any of the early spells. 100% success rate, and the ability to completely disjoint a computer players approach. In SP, it enables site clearing much earlier than pretty much any other spell (up there with Mighty Meek if you have Focus Chambered Longbowman or a Buttercup Fairy). In general, the Necro hero’s ability to basically have a replacement meatshield at all times with Cadavers, and they’re pretty slick IMO.

    I do agree that the buffs and spells otherwise are very focused on the undead (which makes total sense). In combat, the Necro Hero’s tend to tear up the lower RES targets (Orc & T1/2’s), but tend to struggle against the high reselience targets.

    I’d be hesitent in moving up Ghoul Curse to Lvl 5/6. At that point, from my experience you’re basically giving a Necro hero the ability to clear for almost free. I wouldn’t mind the MCI idea, or giving Necro players the ability to “unlock” Ghoul Curse via a cheap research skill.

    #221980

    Fenraellis
    Member

    What do Necro heroes bring in to a normal army? Not really a lot IMO, they got some useful skills, but they are not very very good until its levelled, and they make decent fighting units, against some opponents, but rather crappy ones against others.

    Well, Dark Gift is pretty kick ass against most enemies, at least. 😛

    That being said, I’m pretty Ghoul Curse being available even earlier on heroes is unlikely to happen. It used to be at level 7, even, before it was pushed back to level 9.

    #221983

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, manual and AC are very different things, so in MP it will be less of an issue at any case.

    Removing Deathbringer from the units you can mind-control and making Ghoul Curse earlier – at level 5/6 or even 7, will push the Ghoul Curse strategy to mid-game and even late mid-game, depending on the level. You will then be using a hero to try and manually take control of units, which means you can lose your hero and need to build it up in a specific kind of way. If you play fair and don’t reload shit even in SP/PBEM, there is a good your hero will be done for. So, JJ, is the issue “too early access to Ghoul Curse”? Or the fact non-Necro players are able to play the Ghoul Curse game effectively at all? If it is too early access than the solution I proposed is quite well balanced, it removes the early access, but preserves the play at a different stage of the game. If it is the latter than we have a fundamental disagreement, and I must align myself with the group of ppl in this thread that view it as a good part of why a player will choose to use a Necro hereto begin with.

    #221984

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Which is absolutely correct. But if that is known, they should make sure that Ghoul Curse isn’t unlocked at Level 3 via controlling a Deathbringer.

    @ Look, ExNihil, I’m not the only one pointing the finger to this, and my stance is simple: Do not allow Necro to control a Deathbringer EARLY.
    Imo, it would be best to have Produce Deathbringer with Inflict Ghoul Curse tech, because that would allow to control Deathbringers that had no Inflict Ghoul Curse.
    Apart from that I’m fine with Necro getting Inflict Ghoul Curse with level 9, that’s early enough. Should it be moved to level 7, cost should rise to 15 points. At least.
    What *I* want, by the way, shouldn’t influence your stance.

    #222027

    ExNihil
    Member

    Ok, I think we are clear on what each of us thinks and wants.

    #222046

    quo
    Member

    Necro heroes are pretty fantastic actually. I train mine like this, with a few variations depending on who I’m fighting. I do not use them to lead an army but rather as a second hero in charge. They are phenomenal paired with Theocrat leaders due to their spirit debuff. If you can craft a Seeker item for them they are even more crazy. And if you find an AoE magical item, their procs affect EVERYTHING hit by the AoE except the procs that only work on melee attacks (e.g. Ghoul Curse).

    1: Inflict Despair
    2: Ranged Damage (1)
    Ranged Damage (2)
    Defense (1)
    HP (1)
    3: Life Steal
    Throw Curse (to wake up sleeping tactical AIs and to make leveling easier)
    4: Control Undead
    5: Exploit Despair
    6: [skip]
    7: Inflict Enfeebling Fever
    Inflict Energy Drain [or skip and wait for Shadow Step to unlock next level]
    9: Inflict Ghoul Curse
    [and Shadow Step if you waited]
    10: Inflict Curse
    11: Invoke Death
    12: [Shadow Step if you didn’t take it yet, or Inflict Energy Drain if you did]

    #222155

    This last tangent seems to me like people equate similar hero levels differently.

    At what turn would you guys expect to have a level 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11 Necro around?

    #222274

    ExNihil
    Member

    If hired at game start level 5 is achieveable usually in 15 turns or less in PBEM. With AC it’s slower, so around turn 20 give or take 3 turns unless you are taking serious risks, and then it can be quicker or your hero is dead. If hired later it will be slower, but less so if you got good forces. Healing is a factor OFC, so it’s class relative. Higher levels are slower, I’d say level 9 before the late 30s on AC is very rare even for Theo, but level 7 is definitely doable even on AC.

    @Fen, I think level 7 works well once deathbringer is made unavailable early on, is MCIed or stripped of its inflict ghoul curse without tech.

    #222303

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    No.

    If you play Necro (you start with a Necro main hero) you will reach level 9 not much later than turn 30 with Strong Defenders.
    If you play a different class, you have to consider gaining XP with your main. Let me make this VERY clear.

    If you ignore your main hero in order to instead level up a hero of a different class, something is wrong with the game, because you should play the other class.

    The current situation is fine – except for controlled deathbringers.

    #222310

    ExNihil
    Member

    You can only level once per battle per unit. And in AC you can’t control this. Also I was talking of a Necro hero not for Necromancer. As for strong defenders, that adds more overall XP, but the levelling limit stays. So basically you will be hitting level 7 around turn 24 in your scheme, hence ghouling will emerge in mid-game, hence no early access to ghoul curse, hence problem solved, period.

    #222322

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    That’s bullshit. You don’t want to start hero-ghouling at that point. Period.

    #222364

    ExNihil
    Member

    When you can’t make an argument its better to keep silent before you start cursing JJ, next time think twice how you name your thread, since what I wrote actually solves the problem you yourself proposed, there is no way in which this is bullshit. Keep polite pls.

    #222376

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    It doesn’t “solve” anything at all, it just exchanges an uncertain early zombie rage for a certain slightly-later rage.

    You definitely do not want to make ghouling any more interesting for the other classes as it already is, and going back to level 7 with Inflict Ghoul Curse would just do that. You can rech level 7 way earlier than turn 24, by the way. It’s also too near by level 5 which is what you can hire. What I definitely don’t want to hear is people complaining about the fact that they never got a Necro hero offered while opponent got one turn 1 or something like that.

    So this is a really, really bad suggestion.

    Level 9 is just right. I understand that from the point of any other class wanting to ghoul-kill as well, level 7 would be preferable and MAYBE, just MAYBE difficult enough to obtain (even though I don’t believe that), but for a Necro Class player level 7 is way too early, and in that case – sorry for the other classes, but you don’t balance heroes of one class, so that the other classes can conveniently exploit them. You don’t want players of non-Necro classes to really consider whether they should concentrate on developing the Necro asap and putting their main on support duty, just because they get a Necro offered early.
    Necro heroes are really good even without zombie rage and don’t need these shenanigans.

    Which is why your suggestion is what it is.

    #222379

    Hatmage
    Member

    If people think that either giving deathbringers MCI or locking their ghoul curse to depend on the produce deathbringer upgrade is unacceptable, maybe they could start with a “lesser undeath curse” unlocked without produce deathbringer, which raises cursed foes as cadavers, and then have it overwritten by ghoul curse once unlocked “legitimately”.

    Similarly, necro heroes could have lesser undeath curse at level 7 as a prerequisite for ghoul curse at level 9, with the current cost of ghoul curse divided between them.

    Any good? I don’t expect a compromise to be popular, but it might as well be on the table.

    #222380

    ExNihil
    Member

    You can rech level 7 way earlier than turn 24,

    Simple, prove it. Make a video or take a photo to show you can usually get a Necro hero to level 7 “way earlier” then turn 24, which I’d say will be a range between turn 15-19. Even if you do it once it will be a nice change from the usualy chitchat here, but if you do it three times, using different builds/classes, it would be good. I’ll settle for seeing you do this with Necro alone 3 times as proof of your assertion, otherwise I find this highly unlikely that this could be done consistently or even even often in PBEM.

    It doesn’t “solve” anything at all, it just exchanges an uncertain early zombie rage for a certain slightly-later rage.

    I’m sorry, but the example you gave in this thread was Ghoul cursing before turn 10, I’d say a 15-20 turn, or even more IMO, postponement is not “slightly-later” but much later, and this will be a mid-game strategy.

    #222392

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    THis is what I said about EARLY:

    If we would consider a Necro getting a Deathbringer at turn 12 (no problem) as too early…

    Hero Level 3 (Control Undeaed) is no problem; that leaves finding, reaching and attacking a Deathbringer site with a good enough force to come out unscathed enough even if the controling attempt doesn’t work (which is the difference between manual and auto).

    I also said that you can reach level 7 way earlier WITH THE NECRO CLASS, and I don’t think that needs to be proven. Everyone playing Necro should know when their heroes reach what. Strong Defenders gives you level 5 within the first 10 turns (and even a tad earlier than turn 10), so make the math yourself.
    Later it takes longer, since not only are targets farer away and rarer, you also have more than one fighting army. Also, your fighting armies get stronger, battles finishing more quickly, giving your hero less chances to gain XP. THAT is actually the reason why the 2 levels make such a difference. You could probably change even that playing ultra-carefully, rotating green units into the fighting stacks, in order to lengthen battles, but that would seem like really excessive micro and has a few downsides as well.

    Look, there is a reason why they pushed it from Level 7 to 9. I just think that they didn’t really explore the control-deathbringer thing in the beta; if they had, I doubt it would have survived. Deathbringers would have probably come with MCI, and they would STILL have pushed IGC from 7 to 9.

    #222394

    ExNihil
    Member

    You do need to prove it if you want to convince me, alas all i see are exaggerated figures. Start by showing me level 5 in 10 turns consistently.

    #222404

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Look, this has been your “turning point post”

    I agree. I am playing Necro Draconian in PBEM right now and finally took possession of a Deathbringer a few turns ago, since then I have been ghouling shit left and right, including t4 units and it is fairly early in the game. This is as broken as dwellings used to be, in the period where you could get a fire dragon in less then 10 turns sometimes.

    But there is a problem here. IMO this is one of the core strengths of Necro, and much more so of Necro heroes for non-Necro players. What do Necro heroes bring in to a normal army? Not really a lot IMO, they got some useful skills, but they are not very very good until its levelled, and they make decent fighting units, against some opponents, but rather crappy ones against others. Their main focus is on undead units, and until they are really levelled they don’t bring in much. As for Necro doing this, it is a core part of the class. Less effective in MP, but still very much there – you create cadavers, you control undead and you ghoul shit out, and it works well. Access to early Ghouling is probably the biggest thing a Necro hero can offer a player ATM, it’s an IMBA strategy, but it is also a huge thing for Necro itself.

    The second paragraph, especially the bold print has been proven wrong by people posting here. Necro heroes are STRONG, and even without “ghouling shit left and right” they are good enough, especially since they can also control shit and raise cadavers (not to mention the chance to ghoul the odd regular unit at a well of souls).

    In that PBEM game – you will remember when you reached which levels – which should give you an idea, of course depending on Defender Strength.

    You are ot seriously expecting me to leave things left and right and start 3 PBEM games? (SP isn’t much prove – might be a dozen reloads involved).

    #222417

    ExNihil
    Member

    I will take your word on what you do in SP, and if you make a video it will show things as they are. I assume you are an honorable person, if I thought otherwise I wouldn’t discuss anything with you to begin with, so go ahead and show it in SP.

    Nothing has been proven here by anyone, and I find your standards of proof being comically fluid. People wrote their opinions on Necro heroes, as far as I read it was 2 ppl, yourself and Quo, but perhaps others as well. IMO they are not good heroes to have if you don’t get them to do some of their sheningens as you call these, and if these are removed they are just a hero unit with sorta ok attacks against some enemies, but I would much prefer having: A WL hero, has better army leader perks and better combat perks, can be made into a great tank and really assist your creeping; a DN hero, great army leader, superior ranged attack, can be made very deadly; AD hero, has healing access, very useful convert ability, good army leader perks, and good ranged attack as well as powerful levelling that make it very versatile; Rogue hero, good army leader with some very helpful perks, and can become a very heavy hitting unit, also has access to Charm and iirc Seduce when levelled up (maybe im wrong here); Sorcerer hero, very useful spells, some very useful army leader perks as well, invisibility is huge. And OFC, Theo hero, level 2 heal, excellent army leader perks, Divine Justicars when levelled up, and ofc level 5 convert. Where does Necro hero comes? well at the bottom of the pile, unless you can really get huge undead armies, which you really can’t with control undead usually, in AC almost never and in PBEM its still very situational, until you get to start ghouling shit out, which happens quite late without Deathbringer, and which has much less strength in AC, at least for a non-Necro player without many deathbringers to bring in.

    You want to prove something, start working, and by this I don’t mean write stuff here but start working on the data and bring some game proofs for what you are saying, I will bring a leap of faith and trust in your honest intentions, I promise.

    #222434

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I don’t understand you – a hero can lead only one stack. FIVE units. So what you need for a Necro are FIVE undead units. If you have more, they won’t be led by THAT Necro at least, but instead by say, a Wraith King…

    #222444

    ExNihil
    Member

    Undead for non-Necro players are inherently weaker, you can’t embalm and build ’em, you can’t upgrade them through techs and/or MCUs cause you convert ’em – all except whatever you can produce from a dwelling, if you manage to control one early enough (no MCU upgrades anyhow) and you can’t heal them without a Necro hero or reanimator as supports, so they don’t regen. They are rather crappy units in comparison to most living units of equal tiers, although they got their uses. Almost all the units in the game are living units, thus the three heroes capable of boosting sustain for living units have a huge advantage. All dwellings except one are living, and most treasure sites include living rather than dead units, hence the 3 hero types that get convert abilities on living units have a big advantage here. The point in which this is changed is ghouling, which is a unique conversion ability that is able to affect even MCI enabled units, such as non-machine/undead t4 units, and conversion t3 units such as evangelists. This is extremely useful and unique, but it depends on when you get access to it. If the entire point of levelling your Necro is to get a few occasional units ghouled at the risk of losing your hero when you already levelled it to level 9, which happens quite late in MP, and still quite late in PBEM (by which I mean mid-game+), I’d much prefer getting a hero unit that gives me benefits quicker and at earlier stages I can use better, and here most hero types will do. Also note that Necro magic is usually quite bad, yes Stiffen Limbs is good, but I’d rather have spear-roots to deal some damage and roll a chance to remove MP, or smite for a powerful nuke, or Sorcerer for its powerful unit buffs, or WL for its even better unit buffs and berserk and so forth. Only hero unit that has worse magic is DN, which still has Force Field and Flash Bang, which are both situationally very useful.

    #222467

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Aren’t you jumbing a couple of things up here? When you hire a Necro as non-Necro, you CAN give him a living army just fine, since he is living as well (and healable). You can then use him any which way – like a Dreadnought, say, or like a Rogue. That is, you are in no way required to hand him undead or ghoul him something.
    However, if you fight against UNDEAD (or if you get control over an Archon dwelling), the situation may change: the hero IS ABLE TO control undead (which still doesn’t mean he HAS TO), so he may try. If you DO try, since you are limited to one try (AC you are not asked), you’ll try and control a good unit. Wraith, Wraith King, Archon Caster, Reanimator. IF THAT WORKS, you can opt to start his own little empire. so-to-speak. Once he controls enough undead, you may or may not ghoul a unit – you may also give him living units and replace them with controlled ones, as the turns go by, and he may become a leader.
    And if the hero reaches level 9, he can start to ghoul-kill units, and if that starts, such a hero can build an army in no time.

    With AC you don’t have any input into how the AI will handle your Necro. Here, since there is no battle control, things are more randomly. Whether or not the Necro will control his own army, who knows, but the same is true for ghouling: with AC it’s the same no-fun event, because you don’t have control. Battle result may be 2 Cadavers and no Ghoul or 1 Cadaver and 1 Boar when you hoped to get the Troll.

    Without AC you can put care into things and play for all kinds of things.

    So with AC, after a battle you will look, what the cat dragged in, if anything, and either dismiss rabble or be happy or whatever, while manual you can really plan things and there it makes a lot of difference.

    If the current situation (minus the DB) is not good enough for you to hire a Necro – so what? If I interpret you right then you wouldn’t hire a Dread either. So – don’t.

    #222500

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Make a video or take a photo to show you can usually get a Necro hero to level 7 “way earlier” then turn 24, which I’d say will be a range between turn 15-19. Even if you do it once it will be a nice change from the usualy chitchat here, but if you do it three times, using different builds/classes, it would be good. I’ll settle for seeing you do this with Necro alone 3 times as proof of your assertion, otherwise I find this highly unlikely that this could be done consistently or even even often in PBEM.

    To be fair to JJ, I’ve certainly done this multiple times, in both PBEM as Necro, and in Simultaneous live MP. Heck, I’ve done level 9 before turn 24 multiple times, too, especially in PBEM where it’s simple to do. All it takes is fighting a lot, and having a few Reanimators can fairly easily help that happen. Of course, a little luck with battles(not too many Fire Nodes/Magma Forges/Draconians, and more Blight/Frost enemies) never hurts.

    People wrote their opinions on Necro heroes, as far as I read it was 2 ppl, yourself and Quo, but perhaps others as well.

    I’m not a person. :'(

    —–
    Anyway, A few salient points:
    — Death Bringers used to come before Bone Collectors. They were swapped in both research tree and Class Building requirements, Bone Collectors were nerfed(alas, poor Regrowth, we knew you well), Death bringers were also slightly nerfed in stats(not buffed, despite the double cost swap), and especially in the Ghoul Curse mechanic.
    — Ghoul Curse had the check strength nerfed. Twice. Well, it was buffed up again after the next nerf, but still.
    — Ghoul Curse used to have unlimited checks, like other Inflicts. They managed to finagle a workaround utilizing the same trick that makes Steadfast Ward limited to once per battle per unit.
    — Necromancer Heroes have pretty much only been nerfed(aside from adding Ghoul Curse to their ability list) since their inception, due to having so many good abilities. Specifically, this has been through pushing back several abilities to higher levels, and increasing the costs of multiple key abilities as well.
    As it stands, Necromancers have the highest total Hero Upgrades cost worth of abilities.
    (not counting stats, spells or cp upgrades):
    Lvl 1 = 17
    Lvl 3 = 15
    Lvl 5 = 16
    Lvl 7 = 9
    Lvl 9 = 17
    Lvl 11 = 31
    Total = 105
    Even the Sorcerer, probably the closest, only has 85(Archdruid has 82).
    — Harbingers of Death received a major nerf, but is also still good.
    — Exploit Despair was nerfed into the ground(it was originally +2 to all damage channels per unhappiness tier), and it’s still good even at +2/+1 Spirit/Frost per tier.
    Death Bringers have this ability, as do Necromancer Heroes(and Lost Souls and Reapers).

    Now, to be fair, some of these changes were entirely necessary, such as to Exploit Despair, and Ghoul Curse in general, but consider that the units are still quite good regardless. Obviously, a Death Bringer won’t likely beat something like a Knight or Shock Trooper while unranked, but with ranks…

    When asked about adding Mind Control Immunity to the Death Bringer, the dev response wasn’t that it wasn’t appropriate, it was concern over the appearance of too many nerfs. Then again, considering Necromancers just got some very nice QoL changes, well…

    #222504

    Wallthing
    Member

    If this is really a problem for MP I’m fine as a SP person with giving Death Bringers MCI. Not sure how I feel about nerfing the Deathbringer’s base Inflict Ghoul Curse or adding another empire upgrade I’ll want to research.

    #222513

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Very interesting and enlightening psot, Fen.

    If it helps to sway the devs:

    Keep in mind that controling a Deatbringer early and Ghoul-kill stuff isn’t a NECRO Class problem, but an ALL-CLASS problem!.

    I mean, with a research of 800 PRODUCING a theoretically unlimited amount of Deathbringers is not that threatening, simply because at that point there isn’t much to ghoul anymore except enemy forces (except on very large maps where this may count).

    It’s also more of an issue in SP and PBEM, less so in AC.

    It is also one thing to push ONE hero to a high level and then ghoul-kill with HIM, when you play the class. That is fun. Getting this done as an alien class is even more fun and will take longer, because you miss Necro techs and have to be more careful.

    But controling a Deathbringer early changes things completely, for everyone. And in theory it’s possible to control more than one.

    #222517

    ExNihil
    Member

    @Fen,

    How much earlier then turn 24 can you get level 7? That is the question, can you consistently get it before turn 19?

    Anyhow I won’t press the Ghoul Curse earlier then turn 9 further, but I think the removal of the Deathbringers from the units that can be converted is a serious nerf to Necro heroes for non-Necro players in PBEM and SP, and IMO making it available to players before the later mid-game is something important. You can start converting shit much earlier with some classes and they got a better synergy with the racial units these classes can actually produce, at least some of them.

    #222520

    You don’t want players of non-Necro classes to really consider whether they should concentrate on developing the Necro asap and putting their main on support duty, just because they get a Necro offered early.

    Honest question: Why not?

    #222528

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Honest answer:

    Because if that happens and you put your main (picked class) on hold to develop a hero of another class even though you do not have Necro class tech, either NECRO is completely overpowered or the combo X Class(tech)/Necro or Necro tech or X Class is underpowered.

    Not to mention the fact that if you wanted to go on a ghoul rage you might play Necro in the first place.

    #222532

    Fenraellis
    Member

    but I think the removal of the Deathbringers from the units that can be converted is a serious nerf to Necro heroes for non-Necro players in PBEM and SP, and IMO making it available to players before the later mid-game is something important. You can start converting shit much earlier with some classes and they got a better synergy with the racial units these classes can actually produce, at least some of them.

    But… what other converting units can be captured? Bards aside, as already discussed(although if they got a ranged Charm, they might be due for the MCI treatment as well). Especially one as potent as a Death Bringer? None, of course.

    For reference, a Warlord with a Rogue will still only have the Theocrat for Mind Control efforts, since you can’t Mind Control other Mind Control units. A Warlord with a Necromancer might have a Necromancer, then also one or more Death Bringer(s) on top of that.
    Well, a Theocrat with Control Undead can eventually try their hand as well, but without Heal Undead and Inflict Despair to back it up(unless you’ve already got a Reanimator), Death Bringers are quite a bit less deadly than they potentially can be with a Necromancer Hero.

    I fully admit that controlling a Death Bringer early is a very niche, and outright nreliable strategy in live MP, due to Auto Combat, but in PBEM and Single Player, or I suppose Manual-vs.-AI MP, it’s actually quite simple to find the nearest Tomb and roll the odds(pretty good, actually) of Controlling a Death Bringer.
    I suppose as Elf or Frostling, with Stunning/Freezing Touch, respectively, especially as a Necromancer with the 1~2 Supports you’re guaranteed to start with at least one of, it might be even easier, because in a pinch, you can drain the action points, fail the Control check(or the other way around), then flee the battle to try again.

    —–

    On a side note, again, do we really want other classes to have quite as much access to a key element of the Necromancer playstyle as this currently allows? That’s kind of what the Necromancer class itself exists for. You can’t really emulate the other classes’ mid-late game strategy, like Ghoul Cursed/Undead hordes with the Necromancer are, with any reliable accuracy.

    Mass Trebuchet to emulate Dreadnought Machine armies(or Crossbowmen to emulate Musketeers?).
    Desperately befriend/charm as many animals as you can and clear Springs of Life for chance at gaining Hunters to emulate Archdruid.
    Massed Fairies mixed in with Storm Sisters(for Inflict Stun) to emulate Sorcerer.
    Simply lots of (inferior to actual class) units to emulate Warlord, Cavalry especially.
    …you know, I’ll stop here. The closest one to an actual class that’s remotely like the real thing is the Archdruid example, and even that’s missing Hunters(in realistic numbers), Shamans and Horned Gods, plus the noteworthy empire upgrades.

    For the rest of the classes, their Global Spells, Class units(and realistically, Ghouls really are Necro class units more than they’re not), Empire Upgrades and ‘trademark’ abilities are key.

    — Dreadnought: Machine trait, Repair Machine/Maintenance(yeah, yeah), Fire Cannon, Flame Throwing, Fire Mortar, Fire Musket, Fire Pistol, Cavalry/Archer/Armored traits, Physical/Fire damage
    — Sorcerer: Support trait, Floating(on others, but majorly on Sorcerer), Inflict Stun, Phase, Faerie Fire, Shock Breath, Dominate, Summoned/Magical Being trait, Mend Magical Being, Shock damage
    — Arch Druid: Animal/Monster/Summoned traits, movement abilities/Free Movement, Bleeding Wounds, Slayer traits, Entangle/Entangle Strike, Call Lightning, Concealment abilities, Evolve, Archer/Support traits Physical/Blight/Shock damage
    — Warlord: Infantry/Archer/Pikeman/Cavalry/Irregular traits, Cavalry trait especially, Martial Arts, Experience Gain(Conqueror/Global Assault), Racial/Racial-Class units, Physical damage
    — Rogue: Irregular/Infantry traits, Irregular especially, Concealment abilities, movement abilities(2 Flyers, 2 Floaters, 2 Irregulars which appreciate Explorer), Charm/Seduce, Bard Skills, Backstab, Assassin Strike, Physical/Blight/Frost damage
    — Theocrat: Support trait, Infantry/Cavalry traits, Devout, Healing, Convert, Heretic, Smiting Prayer Bolts, Divine Vengeance, Absorb Pain, Strong Will/Spirit Protection, Physical/Spirit damage(with a hint of Fire and Shock from the Shrine)
    — Necromancer: Undead trait, Ghoul trait, Support/Infantry/Irregular/Pikeman traits, Heal Undead, Inflict/Exploit Despair, Collect Bones, Incorporeal, Life Stealing/Drain, Ghoul Curse, Reanimate Dead, Undying, Necromantic Aura, Shadow Step, Physical/Blight/Spirit/Frost damage

    Well, it’s a decent list, but obviously not exhaustive, also there is definitely some overlap, but for the most part each class is fairly self contained within a particular playstyle range of notable abilities.

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