Too early access to Ghoul Curse via Deathbringer too powerful – for all Classes!

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Too early access to Ghoul Curse via Deathbringer too powerful – for all Classes!

This topic contains 159 replies, has 20 voices, and was last updated by  Jolly Joker 6 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 10 posts - 151 through 160 (of 160 total)
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  • #222533

    ExNihil
    Member

    I meant – losing the ghouling ability is a rather big nerf to non-Necro players who can’t now control a deathbringer, hence introducing it on Necro heroes earlier then level 9 is desireable, if level 7 is in mid-game it would be good IMO. I see how my text could be read as a post for keeping Deathbringer available, but it wasn’t.

    I would appreciate your figures here, I am not buying the level 5 before turn 10 JJ is writing, and I dunno how quickly you can get to level 7 in PBEM on a regular basis (that is most of the time, I’m not interested in rare occasions) using the common settings, which seem to be normal to strong defenders. The classes that will have the biggest advantage here are probably Theo/AD and WL with their creeping buffs, so their numbers would be a good optimum (any of theirs, I know you play lotsa AD, so that will do).

    #222538

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I could show you, except that I won’t for certain reasons.

    Anyway, “losing the Ghouling ability” isn’t a nerf to non-Necro players because they don’t have them in the first place. I don’t even know because I still argue. It’s all too obvious.

    #222639

    Honest answer:

    Because if that happens and you put your main (picked class) on hold to develop a hero of another class even though you do not have Necro class tech, either NECRO is completely overpowered or the combo X Class(tech)/Necro or Necro tech or X Class is underpowered.

    Wait, that is something different. In the post i quoted you said “consider”. And if one option is clearly better then there is no consideration. If the player with the early necro hero has top consider which path to take between two strategic options, that means that
    a) these options are roughly equal, at least enough that there is consideration involved
    b) In a strategic game there is a significant strategic choice informing the rest of the particular game
    I would consider both of these desirable aspects.

    Not to mention the fact that if you wanted to go on a ghoul rage you might play Necro in the first place.

    On a side note, again, do we really want other classes to have quite as much access to a key element of the Necromancer playstyle as this currently allows? That’s kind of what the Necromancer class itself exists for. You can’t really emulate the other classes’ mid-late game strategy, like Ghoul Cursed/Undead hordes with the Necromancer are, with any reliable accuracy.

    Do we want that?
    Well, I don’t know if you want that. But I do know that, again easily readable in the threads to the Necromancer prieview newsposts, a number of people, who are part of that abstract “we”, do want it. And linked to that a number of people also voiced disappointment when it was announced that non-Necros have to purify ghoul cities, instead of keeping them as a ready source of undead racial and class troops.

    So yes, “we” want significant ghoul troops and the undead army playstyle outside of the necromancer class, just not ever part of “we” has the same opinion.

    Mass Trebuchet to emulate Dreadnought Machine armies(or Crossbowmen to emulate Musketeers?).
    Desperately befriend/charm as many animals as you can and clear Springs of Life for chance at gaining Hunters to emulate Archdruid.
    Massed Fairies mixed in with Storm Sisters(for Inflict Stun) to emulate Sorcerer.
    Simply lots of (inferior to actual class) units to emulate Warlord, Cavalry especially.
    …you know, I’ll stop here. The closest one to an actual class that’s remotely like the real thing is the Archdruid example, and even that’s missing Hunters(in realistic numbers), Shamans and Horned Gods, plus the noteworthy empire upgrades.

    Funnily enough a neutral machine guild as a way to get better machines outside the Dreadnaught class is one of those recurring suggestion in this forum.
    And the thing you go for here is a rather full emulation of the class, which so far no class can do. You can’t gain the horned god to go full druid and you can’t get the Dread Reaper for full Necro. Alternatively don’t forget the elite Tigran Mystics so we can emulate the Sorcerers phasing supports.
    You can emulate aspects of a class, and the Necro only looks significantly better in that regard than the other classes if you assume:

    (and realistically, Ghouls really are Necro class units more than they’re not)

    And this is something I disagree on.
    And the whole reason for this thread is actually the rather free access to ghouls by non-Necros. Ghoul Course, Control Undead, Well of Souls…
    I think “ghoul” is just a modifier to a unit, one the Necro has easier access to for thematic and synergy reasons, but nothing more. I do not consider ghouls a more Necromancer aspect of the game than Archons. It works better and you have an easier time getting them, but everyone gets access, and not just mostly the Necro.

    But I do think a lot of this boils down to: “Should undead be available outside the Necromancer class in a strategy-informing amount?”
    And my answer to that is “Yes, they should.”

    #222640

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    But I do think a lot of this boils down to: “Should undead be available outside the Necromancer class in a strategy-informing amount?”
    And my answer to that is “Yes, they should.”

    No, it doesn’t, actually, which is the reason I’m so pissed. This is being dishonest for a specific purpose.
    No one has a problem with that. In fact, as player of any class you can play with as many ghouls as you like: just go to a well of souls and take a drink. No problem.

    The problem outlined here is sketched and phrased completely different:

    Should players – no matter what class and inclusing Necro – be able to gain access to an fast and potentially unlimited ghoul-accumulation machine?

    Any my answer to that is no. No Class, not even Necro.

    #222679

    Ericridge
    Member

    Why so afraid of a undead horde from deathbringer?

    Make friends with a fire dragon or flame tank operators and they’re all ashes.

    Even fire adept will work nicely in burning the freshly risen undead.

    #222702

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Make friends with a fire dragon or flame tank operators and they’re all ashes.

    Even fire adept will work nicely in burning the freshly risen undead.

    Since it’s so easy to have a random Fire Dragon whenever you want, or everyone is a Dreadnought for handy Flame Tanks?

    Also, if the single target Fireball is being used to clear out multiple enemies, then that’s pretty tedious. Heck, you would probably be better off with Rot for multi-target if it’s an ‘Undead Horde’.

    #222709

    Ericridge
    Member

    Make friends with a fire dragon or flame tank operators and they’re all ashes.

    Even fire adept will work nicely in burning the freshly risen undead.

    Since it’s so easy to have a random Fire Dragon whenever you want, or everyone is a Dreadnought for handy Flame Tanks?

    Also, if the single target Fireball is being used to clear out multiple enemies, then that’s pretty tedious. Heck, you would probably be better off with Rot for multi-target if it’s an ‘Undead Horde’.

    Exactly my point. The bigger the map is the more easier to counter a undead horde being led by a non-necromancer. 😉 The bigger it is the more likely there will be a giant or dragon dwellings.

    And for flame tanks.. all the person has to do in question is to meet the remaining players and findout if one of them is a dreadnought player. If successful, send request to dreadnought player that you would like to purchase the services of his flame tanks. If dreadnought agrees, he will send over those flame tanks and destroy the upstart ghoul horde attacking you.

    Heck, you could do the same and hire the fire wyverns/dragons from a player who has them.

    Diplomacy for the win! This is one of things that I mean by winning through diplomacy.

    While Fire arrow is tedious but it can be used on targets like orc shock troopers, knights etc to soften them up before going in for the kill.

    As you mentioned, rot is another excellent option that multihits the undead horde and is available early!

    Its just that fire adept = Fire ball + skin of oil = one super flammable undead XD

    Deathbringer definitely does not need MCI immunity at all.

    #222716

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Fine points. You actually don’t need anything at all – just ask the guy with the Deathbringer to lend it to you, and in no time you have a bigger undead horde to kill his. You just have to be ingenious, then everything is fine.

    #222718

    Ericridge
    Member

    Fine points. You actually don’t need anything at all – just ask the guy with the Deathbringer to lend it to you, and in no time you have a bigger undead horde to kill his. You just have to be ingenious, then everything is fine.

    That has better chance of working if the person with deathbringer isn’t at war with you and you’re willing to pay him/her gold. 😉

    #222726

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Should be no problem, since you actually din’t build anything yourself.

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