Undead Upkeep

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Undead Upkeep

This topic contains 47 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by  Fenraellis 6 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 18 posts - 31 through 48 (of 48 total)
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  • #210263

    quo
    Member

    Undead do eat. Nourishing Meal is one of the few heals that works on them.

    #210264

    Ericridge
    Member

    If you want maintenance free undeads. Just hop on over to Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes and grab the Dead faction. Their undead units is maintenance free. You can literally blot out the sun with them if you wished to. And throw soldiers at a problem until it resolves.

    But one fact remains, your undeads will be very puny and weak if you don’t arm them with necessary weapons and armor.

    And even when you say you gonna just plunder the enemy army of the materials you need. Keep in mind just because you slaughtered the oppositon it doesn’t mean every single piece of weapon/armor will be in mint shape because they will be used against you ghouls in attempt to stay on living. You can scavenge the dead soldiers for weapon/armor but not everything will be usable unless you want your ghouls to be wearing truly horrendously damaged armor with gaping holes everywhere and uncomfortable dents that get in the way of combat.

    And the dead cities isn’t really isolated from the world, to extract materials that might not be available in your location.. would require trading with living cities.

    And frankly the upkeep costs on necromancer units doesn’t bug me at all.

    #210284

    Also hero can be ghouls, you can ghoulify them with ghoul curse.

    #210288

    CSav10
    Member

    Also hero can be ghouls, you can ghoulify them with ghoul curse.

    This is one of the things I don’t approve of. I don’t approve of ghoul heros simply because there is(to my knowledge) no way to dismiss them. Random heroes are one of the things I put time and effort into and I normally want a good synergy with my leader. So getting a hero that has bad upgrades and or a bad synergy is irreversible.

    #210289

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I’m leaning towards the other direction – the upkeep thing is another point on my list of things speaking against “ghouled” units being also “undead ” units. (“Ghouled” should have been their own “brand” of changed racial units and not share the undead trait with Necro class units but be something like not-just-yet-undead; I know,it sounds a bit silly, but these things things all sound somewhat silly, but it makes sense from a gameplay pov.) Dropping upkeep – or changing it completely or mainly to mana might make sense, but this is nother case where “sense” is secondary to gameplay.

    #210295

    CSav10
    Member

    If ghouls were purely based on mana, as soon as harbingers of death triggered your entire economy would crumble late game. You would be trying to support a number of global spells, aswell as just about your entire upkeep with mana.

    #210301

    Gloweye
    Member

    If you needed Mana upkeep for ghouls, you’d better get a number of Empire Upgrades that would make Sorc Mana income seem like a joke.

    #210321

    Wintersend
    Member

    Impact edge, I thought this was a valid point to argue. But now it’s just getting annoying since we have given more than enough reasons. Yes, no one is alive BUT you do have intelligent undead. Wouldn’t surprise me to learn that a fairly high percentage of your troops have just below reanimator level intellect. Anything with intelligence is going to want some form of compensation. Heck, we even pay animals as much as trained soldiers in some cases. We’re assuming its because of all the unseen logistics behind it.

    Also on the functioning while in the void thing. The difference is that, based on your argument, the living have a mind and can think effectively and show initiative. The undead don’t have those things so they can’t show initiative and make their own decisions.

    Edit: I think Necro should be on par or slightly above Sorc in mana income and his costs should be half and half. So the basic ghoul swordsman takes 2 mana and 2 gold per turn to sustain. The cost of this is is that his gold income is the worst in the game.

    #210328

    CSav10
    Member

    Edit: I think Necro should be on par or slightly above Sorc in mana income and his costs

    Why should the necromancer be on par with the sorcerers mana income, when all the sorcerers class units requires mana other than apprentices. The fact you think it should be slightly above I find a little absurd. At any rate I do believe 25% mana reduction from the Arch druid’s wildlife refuge actually saves you more mana late game from summons, than the sorcerer makes through magical structures. To add to this it also gains 25% gold reduction to monsters and animals.

    #210329

    Wintersend
    Member

    You missed what I said afterward. After that I said that ALL of their units should become 50% mana 50% gold and that their gold production should be dropped to be the lowest accordingly. If this change was implemented, then Necros would be burning through at least as much mana as Sorcerers.

    #210391

    zeelilus
    Member

    If I have to pay upkeep for animals I see no reason why ghouls (intelligent or otherwise) wouldn’t need upkeep.

    Even if you’re going for mindless undead (which I’m pretty sure isn’t the case in this series), as people said there’s the issue of food and armor. If it was possible to scavenge those then every race could have units without upkeep.

    Besides we all know rogues are the only ones who can loot bodies, and even then it seems to just be jewelry and other valuables that can be sold for gold. 😛

    #210394

    ImpactEdge
    Member

    There hasn’t been a single solid case against my claims so far short of balancing, but that’s a rather poor excuse.

    Just people saying the same thing over and over again, my first few posts eliminate those cases entirely.

    But hey, they screwed up ghouls in the first place, why are ghoul armies affected by morale and ghoul cities are not? There’s certainly no difference in population between armies and cities, according to mostly everyone here, there must be intelligent undead within the cities, why doesn’t morale affect them?

    Of all the good things that could have been done with necromancer, a lot of them were not even implemented. Must has been the same case as it is here, stubbornness outnumbered logical.

    #210397

    Ravenholme
    Member

    All the still-living Necromancer adepts (Your leader’s apprentices who are too unskilled to be used on the frontline) helping to maintain the Ghouls (Embalming, repairing) need paying, as Ghouls are too mindless to be entrusted with tasks involving the magic that actually animates them. (Reanimators are not Ghouls, for example)

    Also, all that gear they’re wearing and using requires maintaining, purchasing, procuring. When an army is on the move, some of that is going to have to be sourced from wherever you are.

    So yeah, running costs.

    Should the Necromancer have had the cost of units split between a Gold and Mana upkeep? Almost certainly (50/50).

    And, a point, just because a justification for it doesn’t suit your internal logic for what the Necromancer should be, does not mean that the justification isn’t adequate.

    #210398

    Lord Impactedge,

    just claiming that you are the only person who is right is not a way to “win” this. there are plenty of reasons why you need to pay the ghouls:

    – Feed for the ghouls.
    – Improvement of the armor and weaponry.
    – logistic backgrounds.
    – the actual recourses you have to spent on getting the ghouls patched up and not falling apart.

    lets pass this on to you, give me a reason why they shouldn’t be paid. and don’t come up with the “ghouls don’t need money” or “they scavenge all their gear” stuff. it is already disproven that they do eat and that you cant arm your army with only scavenged gear.

    how do the ghoulified elven bowman get their bow? does the necromancer summon it, does every single bowman get buried with that gear? does he summon the metal and magically change it in weaponry and armor?

    #210409

    Best in genre answer was in the otherwise bad ugly Americans. Zombies had to produce enough economic activity so they could buy replacement body parts.

    Anyway, ghouls have enough intelligence to do all their combat tasks, so farming and trading in slow .motion (but without sleeping) can’t be beyond their capabilities. You also have the upper stratum of reanimators, the heroes, and the necromancer leader.

    Otherwise, robots and cars need maintenance, even if mindless.

    #210410

    quo
    Member

    You are basically arguing that the price of feeding and putting undead in tents (or cages, coffins, crates, whatever way it is they are hanging around in while not marching), along with supplying equipment, is fixed at zero.

    If you don’t want to think of it as “Gold” and prefer to think of it in terms of “Value of supplies consumed” then that is fine. The concept is somewhat abstract. In any case, a Ghouled Knight still needs the same equipment a living one does or else it is not a Knight, it’s just a guy hanging around awkwardly.

    #210411

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Yeah, look at this way – The Gold cost upkeep is an abstraction of the economic activity required to sustain a war machine, even an undead one, on the march. Arms need to be produced, limbs embalmed (and embalming fluid produced etc etc) etc. Even if Gold isn’t actually being used for it, because what use do the Undead have for gold, it represents the “economic” drain in terms of resources that the troops are consuming. Therefore, a Necromancer’s gold income is actually economic capacity, which troops drain. This comes from the Ghouls labouring in the cities (and the reanimators/deathbringers, who may demand pay, being something distinct from Ghouls and perhaps having more free-will), boosted by the various things that would allow them to do their jobs more efficiently (Even Gold mines, because you can always trade with unscrupulous types who don’t mind selling to the dead).

    #210488

    Fenraellis
    Member

    So why do we pay upkeep for them? Short of balancing issues, there’s really no sense to it,

    (bold emphasis mine)
    So this, just doesn’t fly:

    here hasn’t been a single solid case against my claims so far short of balancing, but that’s a rather poor excuse.

    Just because you personally don’t feel that balancing concerns are insufficient justification(even ignoring the mostly reasonable ‘logic’ explanations provided in this thread), doesn’t mean, well, that they are still not the real explanation nonetheless.

    I could get behind paying the gold upkeep on Death Bringers and maybe Reanimators, them being slightly above average and mediocre intelligence.

    Actually, neither of the class-racial units are Ghouls(they don’t benefit from Morale from Master of Puppets, either), and are actually quite intelligent.
    Reanimators are effectively Necromancer Apprentices, or even Liches if one is being generous(Heroes become Archliches).
    Death Bringers are outright defined as being Vampires in the Necromancer Dev-Journal, and are functionally Blade-Mages of a sort by their flavor text description.

    Either way, they are fully cognizant, and have the ability and potential desires of their own for which to use income if so inclined.

    All the still-living Necromancer adepts (Your leader’s apprentices who are too unskilled to be used on the frontline) helping to maintain the Ghouls (Embalming, repairing) need paying, as Ghouls are too mindless to be entrusted with tasks involving the magic that actually animates them. (Reanimators are not Ghouls, for example)

    I was going to bring this up as an idea, but you did first. Conceptually, the Leader does not manage all of their Ghouls, or they would collapse upon being sent to the Void. As a logical conclusion there MUST be intermediaries, likely Reanimators or something similar, that maintain those forces in the background according to the Leader’s goals. Such individuals would likely, as above with Reanimators/Death Bringers, have cause to desire pay.

    Anyway, other people already amply covered concepts of logistical maintenance of an army and why that might cost financial support.

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