Unit progression.

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Unit progression.

This topic contains 23 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  Epaminondas 8 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #3781

    simo_87
    Member

    What kind of unit progression will be involved in the game? Silver and gold medal units are great and all but evolving units are far better in my opinion. malitia – soldier – swordsmaster etc. anyone else feel that this could be further progressed in aow3? 

    #3786

    BlaneckW
    Member

    It could have been better utilize with the shadow demons.

    #3788

    Fikol
    Member

    I would either do as simo_87 suggested or added more levels (like in Shogun Total War maybe), fully upgraded/experienced basic unit is  becoming very strong which adds different tactical options

    #3792

    b0rsuk
    Member

    I hope it ends with gold medal. I like Master of Magic a lot, but fussing over your units and levelling them is the only way to play well. I dislike Wesnoth for the same reason. Similarly, Heroes of Might and Magic has heroes you must preserve to win. In this context, AoW: SM was quite refreshing.

    Occasional oddity like larva unit becoming something else is okay.

    #3793

    NEHZ
    Member

    Evolving units is a bit different from just levelling them.
    Experience units are nice, but if you take levelling it too far you risk giving each unit the chance to fullfill the role of a hero. I remember from Warlock that I could easely max upgrade a tier 2 unit with gold and enchantments, then it only needed a bit exp and the nothing the computer could field would defeat it. The unit itself and the types of upgrades that were available became less important than the number of upgrades it had.
    In my opinion, for ordinary units, it’s more fun if they don’t level too gradually but in big steps so that you take notice. They also shouldn’t become too strong, that role is for the limited amount of heroes. Combine these two and the result is that units shouldn’t have too many levels available. 3 like in the previous games (0, silver, gold) or more up to 5 is all fine to me, but any more I believe will detract from the game.
    Evolving units essentially makes them new units, with new upkeep and possibly new (dis)advantages. You loose some of your investment in it as it becomes a new 0 xp generic unit, but it’s easier to balance, a more special mechanic and can renew the investment.

    #3797

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    We have a few medals more than we used to (4 total to be exact, at the current moment (I’m being pretty careful here… nothing is 100% final until we ship the game, imo ;))).

    The lower the tier the easier it is to level them up. There are others ways of getting xp apart from dealing the killing blow.

    Hope that helps!

    #3805

    TheDio
    Member

    That’s great to hear Narvek. Btw your name allways reminds me of DBz :p

    #3807

    SiaFu
    Member

    Well, since Battle for Wesnoth is not unknown to you, Narvek, what’s the chance of AoW3 having AMLA levels beyond those four medals you mention?

    It’d be really great to use your elite units and not feel like each XP they earn is wasted. An exorbitant amount of XP for a few HP more would be more than enough for me. Maybe leave the health restore or even add a time-limited effect like Gaia’s blessing or something, relevant to the units alignment. It wouldn’t make Tier 1 units suddenly on par with Tier 3 recruits, but would add more satisfaction to keeping your loyal veterans in active service instead of guards and meat shields. Epecially in scenarios where you practically keep your core forces from the start and have limited or no resources to expand them.

    #3809

    Piko LV
    Member

    I agree with SiaFu. I personally don’t like too when I can’t kill using a maxed-out unit without wasting xp. And if there ‘ll be more possibilties to earn xp than killing blows, it’ll be even more annoying.

    #3814

    Sordak
    Member

    i was actually hoping for something like this to make low tier units viable.
    Cause in SM they kinda arent.
    Wich is a shame, considering your army always looks a bit weird if it only consist of high tier units.
    I mean of course, theme can be disregardet when it comes to what is viable in the metagame, but id still like to have it.

    I just dont want a situation where there are these units who i will NEVER build.

    #3822

    Jordorac
    Member

    I would love to see some evolving units like larva, dragon hatchling or the like. But these should be special units that cannot be massively produced. Then they receive higher attention from the player.

    #3885

    simo_87
    Member

    nice ideas guys. i like the sound of having more medals narvek, but like the others have said, once they reach the tp tier, you dont want to use them as much because other units still benifit from the exp.

    are stacks being considerred? eg dwarf beserker kills 3 units so gets 3  stacks of beserk +2 attack -1 def. loses one stack per turn. just something a little dif

    #3907

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    Yes, once some units have gold medals more XP doesn’t help them, but it does build character. Time to send those veterans to the defense line and grab new recruits for the assault. Troop rotation, you know?
    But seriously, I understand your points.

    And I liked the AMLA mechanic in Wesnoth a lot, but this is a different game in the end. Part of Wesnoth’s campaigns (at least for me) was the entire ‘keep your loyals alive and level those first and rebuy them in each new map’. Well, that will be quite different in our game.

    I’ll keep it in the back of my mind though, we’ll see.

    #3982

    simo_87
    Member

    thanks mate. also would be nice to have a limit on the most powerful units per party too

    #3986

    Temper
    Member

    I wouldn’t go the same way as Shogun Total War 2 with experience,or at least not to the same extreme.

    While lower end units need to be usefull,they should never outshine or take the place of a higher tier unit at the same or similar task.Lower tier units and higher tier units should never share any abilities/traits/jobs and preferably be at their best as a mixed party of high and low tier together.

    But without knowing how any of the units function or even scale up or compare to each other at different technology tiers,I really got no right to even comment. lol

    #4003

    Narvek
    Keymaster

    @temper: you have every right, as does anyone. Open sharing of ideas etc is what this forum is about after all. 🙂

    I understand it can be difficult when not knowing the bigger framework. This being the case, it’s always good to be aware of what you don’t know, as you said. And know we read it 🙂

    #4006

    bocuma
    Member

    Can’t you make it a special skill or something, that some special units can level up more, faster or get really interesting bonusses upon leveling, not just the +1 attack +1 defense boehaki.

    Maybe a human level 4 soldier unit, who starts out weak but can become a heroe if it gets the xp’s.  Or skeletons, who can absorb they’re kills and become bone horrors at some point, i dunno ;p .

    Overal i think xp’s should be mainly interesting for heroes. Heroes get me more sucked into the rp part of the game then anything else.

    #4027

    Sordak
    Member

    you just gave me an idea.
    So we got more medals now? And if a unit reaches its max XP doesnt help it anymore.
    So why not give each unit a special ability once it reaches the final medal?
    In that sense you would not have a different evolved unit. But the same with a perk that alters its gameplay.
    For example a swordsman squad that can suddenly climb walls. that would change the combat dynamic quite a bit!

    #4029

    Temper
    Member

    The more I think about it,the more I like the idea of unit evolution.

    It can be handled much easier by both the developers and players.Also if you lack self control,like myself,it puts an end to leveling up units with overpowered abilities that they really should not have (like in shogun 2).Best save the heroic stuff for something like heroes me thinks.lol

    Hmm,maybe something like Mount and Blade Warbands system except without the option of evolution branches.Because we all know given the choice of branching into Swadian Knights or Swadian heavey infantry we are going to choose Knights. lol

    So yeah,just simple evolutions would probably work infantry,cavalry,ranged,maybe even a spear tree with the only player option being not to upgrade so as to keep the perks of earlier evolutions in army stacks.

    Starting to sound like a lot of work and balance nightmare now tho hahaha

    #4030

    Tomipapa
    Member

    Well most unit in SM get some ability when lvl up(vision, somekind of protection or immunity, archers get marksmanship ect.)so this feature is already  in the AoW series. I dont like the idea of leveling units to new units like in Disciples or Mount and Blade. In these games normally you cant buy high lvl units you must lvl them up from the scratch so you cant pop out knights from nowhere. However in AoW you have units in different tiers with zero connections so you dont need swordmans to buy a knight. If i can lvl up a swordman for e.g. to a knight then why should i bother myself waiting for them when its much more easier to buy a lot of swordman at the start of the game and by the time i could buy a knight i already have a lot from lvl up swordmans? Like in Westnoth. I didnt buy high tier units i just lvl up them from the low ones

    #4031

    Temper
    Member

    Higher tier units wouldn’t be for sale,so as to speak similar to M&B warband.Ensuring a steady flow of lower tier units,as casualties need replacing.The upkeep cost of too many high tier units early game should be prohibitive enough to stop spam abuse of high tier units.If low tier units also have reliable and usefull abilities then you may also feel inclined to keep a good portion of them unleveled.

    Easier is a point of view,I find it easier to upgrade towns and purchase troops than carefully level up troops,keeping them alive over time and have in my possession the troops I require,when I require them.

     

    But at any rate,if AOW3 uses the buy tiered unit system as per old titles,it really doesn’t worry me,it’s a tried and tested system.I have no info on the unit acquisition or the unit progression system,I’m just putting scenarios out there.  =P

     

    #4049

    I hope that in the campaign we will be able to bring units once again, bringing golden medal elites from map to map was awesome. Loved bringing Orc Warlords for maps in which I knew the oposition would have huge numbers, or bringing Dark Elven Executioners for maps that require speed.

    #4260

    Thass
    Member

    I didn’t really use the experience with soldiers since I was a pacifist in most games in AoW:SM. And yes they did have attributes for some units  after getting  to a certain medal which was a very good idea too. When it comes to the tier up thing I think it would be not much needed for above the starting outpost unit. I wonder if they are going to try to include a specialization option when leveling up units like Total War like selecting what stats go up but I think that is a bit much maybe.

    #29975

    Epaminondas
    Member

    We have a few medals more than we used to (4 total to be exact, at the current moment (I’m being pretty careful here… nothing is 100% final until we ship the game, imo…

    Ah, here’s the dev statement (please ignore my question in the other thread).

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