Unnerf the Flame Tank Please and Thank you

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Balance Unnerf the Flame Tank Please and Thank you

This topic contains 9 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Astraflame 7 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #179389

    Ericridge
    Member

    Enough is Enough.

    I’ve been patient long enough and this battle was the breaking point.

    I attack the enemy but defender has the initiative. And it abuses the initiative to kill my units before they ever get to act.

    And to add the insult upon injury, my Flame Tank suffers one turn cooldown for no good reason whatsoever. Therefore I cannot punish the massed Shrines of smiting for bunching up. I have circled all the problems I have with tactical battle in AOW3. Those units always get smashed in turn 1 of tactical battle of any kind if I am the attacker.

    I wanna torch the shrines but I cannot b/c of one turn cooldown.

    This is exactly the reason why I don’t build the Flame tanks anymore!

    If it is impossible to get one turn cooldown reversed on flame tank, then I must respectfully request that the suffering be spread to other classes including shrines of smiting with their bolts and divine vengeance being placed on one turn cool so that they only can ram too like my flame tanks please and thank you.

    I admit there is a certain tone of frustration within my thread. Triumph devs is trying hard to make me use all my units, they are succeeding and failing at same time.

    Giving flame tank the much needed ram attack did make me produce them again because they are now useful even when stone walls get erected but putting that flame breath on 1 turn cooldown has made me regret producing them again and in order to successfully use flame tank’s flame one must mass flame tanks instead of using diverse armies to increase the odds of them surviving the first turn to use it’s flame of doom.

    #179484

    Zaskow
    Member

    You tactics failed against overwhelming forces. So what?

    P.S Engis FTW.
    P.S.S Tanks feel good leave them alone.

    #179552

    Astraflame
    Member

    There is a good reason for the cd, flame tanks were previously OP without one, they’re still very strong units.

    Divine vengeance on cd i wouldn’t mind , but i don’t see it as necessary either.

    #179555

    Maximo
    Member

    That’s why you bring an engineer with flame tanks, they can remove that cooldown.

    #179960

    terrahero
    Member

    I haven’t played Dreadnought since a little while after that nerf. It’s just not fun to have so much downtime on so many units.
    Engineer has cooldown, Musketeer has cooldown, Cannon has cooldown, Flametank starts with cooldown, Juggernaut starts and has a cooldown.

    It’s dull to resign half your stack to Guard-mode simply because you got nothing you can do with them. And with upcomming Guardbreaker, that’s not always a benefit anymore either.

    Flametank was never really that good to begin with. A single Flamer, a single Forgepriest would hardcounter endless waves of Flametanks.
    It always was a high risk/reward kind of unit. Statwise it wasn’t very good, and no retaliation or attacks of oppertunity meant you wanted to keep it out of melee. But the way it worked meant it was always at great risk to get melee’d. And it’s specialized damage type has many ways to be (hard)countered, and that list has only gotten longer since.

    Pushing the Flametank back in the techtree was the only thing that needed to be done. To give everyone else even more time to build up to a counter (dwarves, draconians, fire mastery, giants, wyverns, faeries, etc There really are quite a lot)

    That’s why you bring an engineer with flame tanks, they can remove that cooldown.

    That’s not why you bring an engineer. Bringing a squishy irregular that has very weak combat performance just to make another unit operate properly is a bad trade. Rather to drop the t3 and the t1 and get two units that do fine on their own. You’ll get much more performance out of that stack.

    That being said, with the upcomming Maintenance for Engineers, as well as the Flashbang lite, there is a good reason to take at least one. And the incidental presence of an Engineer can be used to mitigate this drawback.

    #179982

    They have ramns now, so they can deal with those who get too close. Anyway, engineers are now super useful, especially with the blind flashbang (that would stall the shrines nicely for later burning).

    And muskets are still quite good: they are just specialist anti bio units now. If you can paralyze at least some of the enemy, it is fairly easy to use engineers or a fire and retreat rotation to keep up a steady fire. Late game, when mobilized, the faster musketeers will be great at that.

    Frostlings dreadnoughts also can chill things, which is one of the few ways to reduce defense at range. Tigran dreadnoughts also have athletics for super fast muskets, and can make their cavalry totally ranged.

    Not that they are better overall than dwarves or elves or humans, but a nice supplement.

    #179989

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Statwise it wasn’t very good

    Against any target that doesn’t resist it(which despite what you said, is still most of the targets in the game by far, considering only three races have any resistance, and one has a weakness, and then specific units here and there that are mostly high end) it has access to what is essentially a Dragon Breath attack, but 5 base stronger and without any cool down after the first turn of combat.

    Even a single decent use before they die can be worth it sometimes, but if they can get off a second decent use then they have likely well earned their place in that battle. Especially with the odds that they were killed by a melee unit that took damage from their death, considering their resistance to physical ranged fire(presuming they were not thrown at Shock/Frost high elemental ranged damage units). If they get off even more attacks, well, that’s just gravy.

    That being said, they are certainly finicky units, but there is no denying their mere existence on the battlefield can be a frightening notion if one does not have access to the counters. Which is a fairly easy thing to lack, to be quite honest, unless someone always plays Dwarves or Draconians(Tigrans resist with Sphinxes, but it’s only 40% base, scaling up to 80% from ranks), and/or Fire Mastery.

    #180222

    terrahero
    Member

    When i talked about stats i was talking about hp/def/res. It’s on the low end.

    A dragons breath is a powerful skill, but it supplements it’s even more powerful melee and mobility.
    A single 25dmg fire breath is not that great. A Shock Trooper can slap a unit for 17dmg per attack, for upto 51dmg in a single combat turn. And thats not counting Overwhelm, Guard Breaker, Bleeding and War Cry.

    That 25damage is not that great in general. Only if you get some miracle hits where you hit 3+ targets. And yes that can happen, you can also be in a situation where you are going to hit friendly units. That can also happen.

    However because of flametank rushing, they were often matched up against lower tier units (Tier1/2) as it came out quite early for a tier3. And that was before tier1 units got buffed hitpoints.
    So people wouldn’t compare the flametank fairly against other tier3s, but they compared it against tier1/2 units and cried foul.
    When tier3 units are quite capable of being (more than) a match.

    Which is why i suggested just pushing back the tech and pushing them back to a 2nd Class upgrade structure, slowing down the potential to rush them, so they would come out at a time when the other players had more time to build up a Fire-counter and build up to their own t3’s.

    #180266

    Astraflame
    Member

    Flametank was never really that good to begin with. A single Flamer, a single Forgepriest would hardcounter endless waves of Flametanks.
    It always was a high risk/reward kind of unit. Statwise it wasn’t very good,

    Flametanks always had OP damage, and it still do despite the initial CD.

    I’m sorry but that is a ridiculous thing to say, a single forgepriest/ flamer would need an entire battle to take out ”entire waves” of tanks in TC(7x hp/ 12-14 def per tank) and in melee they would die from the explosions. Now that tanks got ram they should be able to handle flamer 😀 and even take out the forgepriest that is fortunate enough to get into melee with a tank, Golem says hello. 10 res 60% fire res means only auto combat would ever allow their ranged attack to be of use(when they didn’t have ram)

    When i talked about stats i was talking about hp/def/res. It’s on the low end.

    Low end compared to what? Out of the gate it’s 60 hp/12 def, comparable to a gryphon rider just 5 less hp, with solid engineering and the two ranks that are possible they produce at 72 hp 14 def, now also reinforced(+18def vs projectiles)

    Those are formidable stats even for a melee unit, considering this is not a melee unit but have the most damaging aoe ranged attack in the entire game i’d say its pretty good at surviving, just vulnerable to lightning damage really.

    That 25damage is not that great in general. Only if you get some miracle hits where you hit 3+ targets. And yes that can happen, you can also be in a situation where you are going to hit friendly units. That can also happen.

    True but that’s can also be mitigated, dwarf/draco or just another tank in the right position, most units with +25 ranged damage have a CD between shots while the flametank does not except for the initial one, the amount of damage it can produce in a single battle can be absolutely staggering.

    Now that engineer has become almost mandatory with dreadnoughts this unit should really be able to shine, especially since it got ram/reinforced.

    #180275

    Astraflame
    Member

    Also worth mentioning, flame tanks synergize with both enchanted armory and flowrock quarry, 16def out of the gate or 82hp isn’t that hard to pull off, ideally one would have both but that is less likely, still the potential is there.

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