Update 1.701+ Patch Notes – Updated 6/10/2015

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Update 1.701+ Patch Notes – Updated 6/10/2015

This topic contains 551 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  Garresh 7 years, 1 month ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 271 through 300 (of 552 total)
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  • #233059

    ExNihil
    Member

    @ Ex-Nihil
    The RG1 could simply halve population cost of settlers instead giving a gold discount.

    Too weak. Nobody will take it – 500 pop is a joke.

    #233060

    NINJEW
    Member

    i really like the current cost of rushing. 100 happiness penalty + 50 gold per turn saved is actually kind of massive, but not unthinkably so. i find it a really fun balance trying to optimize the cost of rushing against the rewards, it always feels like an option that’s available and perfectly fine to use but not usually an option i want to take.

    #233062

    quo
    Member

    i really like the current cost of rushing. 100 happiness penalty + 50 gold per turn saved is actually kind of massive, but not unthinkably so. i find it a really fun balance trying to optimize the cost of rushing against the rewards, it always feels like an option that’s available and perfectly fine to use but not usually an option i want to take.

    I agree with you, mostly.

    The one thing I would change in an ideal world is base the chance for a “city happiness event”/festival to be based on the numeric happiness value and not the threshold (up to a cutoff). That way, dropping from 350 to 250 Happiness would have a risk associated, and shooting way above Cheerful would have a benefit.

    #233066

    Garresh
    Member

    Just wanted to chime in with a response to something said earlier. Mind control effects do work in autocombat. The AI does not maximize them obviously, but I don’t see issues with how they’re used currently. Speaking from a rogue perspective, the only weakness to bardspam is if you get unlucky on converts, they often struggle to survive or clear the enemies who remain. I do find bards a little lackluster in most cases as a result, but in mixed forces they still do their job okay. Especially for halflings!

    And rogues aren’t going to be unplayed. I’ll admit I haven’t done much multiplayer recently, but rogues have been, balance wise, a class least in need of changes for some time. Their earlygame was always a little weak, but this was a balancing factor to compensate their powerful midgame. In truth, if I had to make a guess, I would say rogues will be a lot more powerful in this balance pass due to the changes of earlygame pacing. Their early clearing and economics are now less bad by comparison due to the changes, along with their new ranged attack. Just my two cents.

    #233070

    ExNihil
    Member

    How about giving Theocrat heroes flying at level 9? And also Rogue? So these classes can actually match up with their own flying units, on the one hand, and compete with Sorcerer, who has Floating – fairly on, and for 4 points (iirc at level 5?).

    #233074

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    This retains the advantage that Tigrans and ESPECIALLY Humans have in RG1, in MP situations, and it privileges DN as a class. Thus the Combo HUMAN + DN becomes very powerful indeed, especially now that DN has a healing ability within the class itself, and considering the inherent Human cavalry evolution abilities.

    You realize this was true before, right? Human/Tigran Dread was always better at this strategy than other classes, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I haven’t done anything that makes that better or worse, my changes slow that combo down as much as anyone else.
    Also, note that I am not trying to stop city spam completely, I’m just trying to slow it down. The fact that it’s still possible to do it isn’t necessarily a problem.

    You could be right about Heptatopia, but the name literally means 7, so changing it is pretty tough. I suppose I could make it so you literally need 7 “Cities” as in the size, rather than settlements.

    #233078

    quo
    Member

    If you aren’t already tired of hearing from me, after reviewing the full list of Dreadnought hero changes, I think you were right to reduce the cost of Tree Crusher and Bomb Squad. However, I think you could improve the Dread hero further by addressing the void of really good high level abilities. Tree Crusher and Bomb Squad were always expensive, but never particularly good.

    In one of my mods I actually ended up giving Dreadnought heroes Fire Mortar at lvl 13, at a cost of 15 points. Which is maybe a mistake (it deals 18/18 damage with no falloff). But considering Druids calling lightning + regrowth, Theocrats giving everyone Resurgence, etc not outrageously bad.

    A more reasonable alternative would be giving all units in the stack Fire Bomb. I briefly experimented with this as the alternative version of Bomb Squad.

    Mountain Crusher is also a possibility, since Mountains are a significant pain in the butt for Dreadnoughts and their non-flying machines.

    #233085

    You could be right about Heptatopia, but the name literally means 7, so changing it is pretty tough. I suppose I could make it so you literally need 7 “Cities” as in the size, rather than settlements.

    I actually rather like that one. Even in the late game, an extra 100 city happiness can make a big income difference.

    #233086

    ExNihil
    Member

    You could be right about Heptatopia, but the name literally means 7, so changing it is pretty tough. I suppose I could make it so you literally need 7 “Cities” as in the size, rather than settlements.

    yes I know what hepta means, I meant the bonus is too large. +100 for either armies OR cities is already huge. BOTH is excessive. I was asking for a nerf of some sort. Maybe +50? maybe split it? Dunno.

    #233087

    ExNihil
    Member

    You realize this was true before, right? Human/Tigran Dread was always better at this strategy than other classes, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I haven’t done anything that makes that better or worse, my changes slow that combo down as much as anyone else.

    Got a triple digit I.Q. I’m fairly sure, but is that an excuse? the result is that now its even worse then before dude.

    You have in fact made something that made it worse, not being able to rush directly effects the non-DN players worse then the DN players now. Hence this argument. Before it was a bit more competitive. If the change was more skewed toward population it would have been more balanced.

    #233098

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    If the change was more skewed toward population it would have been more balanced.

    Nope, you’d have just started complaining about goblins, instead. They need 10% less population, and their pop grows 20% faster, and their RG1 makes their pop grow even faster than that. Archdruids and Theocrats both have Pop boosting magic, so I imagine they would have been mentioned as well.

    Anyways, I’m tired of this conversation. You haven’t even tried this, you’re basing it all on supposition and theory crafting. You have no idea how many turns a Human Dreadnaught needs to actually make 7 cities with this system in place, or whether that number is actually a problem in real terms. If someone actually tests it out, and says “Hey, I did this with Human Dreadnaught and got 7 cities by turn 25, this is fucked up” then cool, that’s something we should deal with. Other wise it’s a beta test, not a public consultation we’re having here. I obviously want the feedback, but when I disagree with it, the correct response is to gather actual evidence to prove your point, not just keep talking at me in the hopes I might suddenly change my mind.

    #233100

    ExNihil
    Member

    hmm. Base capital production is 40, + human bonus + mana fuel cells + +builders hall + some happiness, and you are easily in 90 production territory. Correct me if I am wrong but that is 2 (3 max) turn per settler after discount. It was easy to achieve within 15 turns before, without rushing settlers before, and you didn’t need to take DN for that, so now you do. Thats what I am saying and you don’t need to be Einstein to figure this one out or to play test this immensely to get the hard data for it, I’m sorry you got tired but this change is bad and I am entitled to voicing my opinion about it.

    Goblins have a higher pop growth.

    AD pop growth spells cost a shit load of mana, as a said earlier (you can read it) same goes for Theo spells (wrote it as well). Hence that wouldn’t really matter. The goblins discount is only 10%, so its much less substantial on the price. The actual pop increase is less substantial here, if you made the threshold tied to both gold and pop somehow but disengaged the human/tigran RG1 discount from POP that would be effective.

    P.S.

    I am trying it- in at least 3 different games, but not live mp due to time constraints, but PBEM, what to do? Using Tigrans….

    #233104

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Mana Fuel Cells costs the same mana per turn as the AD/theo pop growth spells.

    You are entitled to voice your opinion, just like I’m entitled to voice mine. We obviously disagree, and you repeating yourself ad nauseum doesn’t seem like a winning strategy from where I’m sat.

    If you’re right, and you can play Human Dread and get 7 cities by Turn 15, then please try it and show me, because it doesn’t seem possible to me and I’m genuinely exhausted from dealing with this all day.

    #233109

    ExNihil
    Member

    Mana Fuel Cells costs the same mana per turn as the AD/theo pop growth spells.

    You are entitled to voice your opinion, just like I’m entitled to voice mine. We obviously disagree, and you repeating yourself ad nauseum doesn’t seem like a winning strategy from where I’m sat.

    If you’re right, and you can play Human Dread and get 7 cities by Turn 15, then please try it and show me, because it doesn’t seem possible to me and I’m genuinely exhausted from dealing with this all day.

    Fair enough, once I got the time I will.

    #233111

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Fair enough, once I got the time I will.

    Thank you. I’m dealing with this on my own right now, and I’m getting kind of burned out here. Everyone has their own opinion on this stuff, and resolving it all to make everyone happy is not an easy thing to do.

    #233139

    Zaskow
    Member

    I don’t have much choice Melciar, the way the game works doesn’t let me make a different set of rules for PBEM and Live Multiplayer.

    Maybe, then just leave as is?
    I’m ok with nerf XP-farming, nerf of Invigorate (however, I think it’s partial decision and supports abuses further).
    I’m not happy with healing nerf, because they make obsolete druid and theo heroes. Moving skill on higher hero level was bad idea, honestly. Healing of theo becomes very mediocre and bonuses from Iron heart isn’t very visible, because Theo already has a lot of unit with high spirit protection.

    Actually, decision is on surface. This is possible even by using modding tools. Just separate balance mod-packs for PBEM and live MP.

    Zaskow, you’re the absolute master of strawman arguments and being contrarian. Can you explain to me how a 50 GP increase in the cost of a settler “completely changes the complexion of the game” (which you state in your earlier post) if the city spam is so easy to counter? Unless you’re building a ridiculous number of cities – I don’t see how 50gp increase changes the strategy unless you’re building a ridiculous number of cities (aka- spamming).

    +50 to price and inability to hurry means that your new cities aren’t profitable anymore. You need more time to compensate price of settler. Also you need additional time. In live MP even 1 turn can make big difference.

    yes I know what hepta means, I meant the bonus is too large. +100 for either armies OR cities is already huge. BOTH is excessive. I was asking for a nerf of some sort. Maybe +50? maybe split it? Dunno.

    I lol’d.
    Immolation/poisoning skill or similar takes this bonus completely.

    #233190

    Melciar
    Member

    Hi, guys! Hi dear developers! Well, I see stupid ideas remain.
    None of those who shout the power of the hero-theocracy did not dare to PvP. It is logical.Once again it shows that all balance changes occur without taking into account the real situation. Based only on the sick imagination. You want to reduce spam experience? Excellent! But the same spam experience will remain with the necromancer. In dreadnought with its endless mending. What’s wrong? Why do you struggle with the problem of so rude?
    At the end of it all, there are other options.
    First: to disable the growth experience of healing. Why not?
    Second, finally change the situation with dreadnoughts. Let fix machines running every few turns. BUT! Add Dreadnought Skill “university technicians,” which will give the engineers repairing machines!
    To a question from the settlers. Do not turn off the option to speed up production! It breaks down the game. And I think the construction of the city can pay off only in the event that the settlers will not cost more than 200 gold.
    How to deal with city-spam? What if the mood to increase the penalty for accelerated production of a settler? 100 points is not as it is now, and more? 150? 200?
    I think that these ideas will work better.

    #233194

    Taykor
    Member

    stupid ideas

    balance changes occur without taking into account the real situation

    sick imagination.

    Add Dreadnought Skill “university technicians,” which will give the engineers repairing machines!

    They already have Maintenance. And repair machines on gold. Talking about ‘real situation’.

    #233195

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Do not turn off the option to speed up production! It breaks down the game.

    That’s probably the most absurd thing I ever read.

    However, made a suggestion in the balance forum to change Hurry Production mechanic that will offer good chances that you could avoid a hurry stop for settlers. I wonder what you think about these conditions that would be alike for all Classes including Necro:

    Hurry Productions csts:
    50 Gold for each turn hurried (no change there) plus:
    All population growth is set to 0 for as many turns as production was hurried.
    Towns with 0 population growth cannot hurry production!
    This would include the effects of Necromancer battle pop gain and Necromancer Global spell Undead Plague.

    #233196

    Melciar
    Member

    They already have Maintenance. And repair machines on gold. Talking about ‘real situation’.

    Only gold medal!
    Taykor, And you even played in MP? Or you from girls who like torment AI?

    #233197

    Melciar
    Member

    Jolly Jokerfeyspalm… You really do not understand the multiplayer features. However, as 90% of those who rejoice innovation…
    Look, I have proposed a solution siutatsii. PvP. One match. To show the idiocy of all innovations.
    I will break the 20 turn anyone who will try to build a city with the current situation.
    Rush is now – a strategy without alternatives.
    Play will be only for the classes dreadnought and Necromancer.
    Of all the races will be used only to dwarves, orcs, humans and Tigran.
    That’s what you want out of the game?

    #233206

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I suppose it’s you who doesn’t understand that MP play should be more than finding a way to “rush”, be it production, towns, units, spells, other players or whatever.
    It may be YOUR way, but it has as much to do with gaming than mechanically repeating a certain action without consequence for the actual battle in PBEM manual battle to maximize XP gain.
    You cannot “rush” research either, and strangely enough it doesn’t break the game at all.

    Changing the natural limits (and hurrying production does that by exchanging town production capacity for gold) should have a price and should not be possible to use unlimited.

    #233223

    Melciar
    Member

    Jolly Joker, look. You and other supporters of the changes constantly refer to PBEM. But PBEM – this is not the online multiplayer. Online, there is no manual mode of battle! At least with AI.
    That is what will increase the price of a settler.Just for example.
    1 – 3 turns – builders are building the hall. Now the capital from 50 to 70 points of production, depending on the race and objects.
    250 gold per settler – is the construction of one unit for 4 -5 moves. Without speed up production, it is now there is no option! Let us add here another 2 turns to find a place for the city. Perfectly! The first city we have a 10 turn.
    If I play in a rush, the 1-3 turn – the guild of builders, 4-6 turns – I have Warhall, By the 10th turns I already have at least 3 units of the second level.By the 15th turn I take a tavern, buy and sends mercenaries to visit. I have 20+ at the walls of the enemy’s capital. On the medium map. Anyone who will try to build the city, in the best case will receive two small settlements to the same time. No chance.
    Jolly Joker, For a better understanding, I suggest PvP. You yourself see their mistakes.

    #233238

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Your argumentation makes no sense: you either play aganst someone of equal skill, then the other will do what you do.
    Or you play against someone of inferior or superior skill – then you will win or lose, no matter the rules.

    So the only important thing is to make the game as such interesting, and to make things interesting everything must be possible, but have a fitting price.

    Therefore I’m against forbidding to hurry the production of settlers, but would like to make Hurry production a tad more “costly”, with the aim to ALLOW slipping in a fast settler, but to make producing a whole string of them in no time impossible.

    Look, it’s the same with a good unit. A good unit is NOT supposed to be spammed each turn and to be sent out in swarms, because it would a mechanical thing and a matter of course: fill the production bar wih 6 double-clicks and be done with it.

    That’s no fun.

    And it has nothing to do with PBEM or MP.

    #233261

    Azazir
    Member

    @tombles
    I am the champion of last tournament, btw i did it with absolute 100% winrate and during this event i defeated with my own hands most of so called “top-players” like AbedenegoJC, Ayenara, Gabriel benicho, SantiL etc.
    I dont care much about PBEM or singleplayer to be honest, but i have got almost 1000 pure multiplayer hours of game experience from the gameversion 1.0 to 1.71 beta. And i think ive got a clear understanding of the game-mechanics and balance-issues of classic multiplayer AOW3.

    I respect your hard-work about balance but i have to say you that this new betapatch is mostly bad for further evolution of the game (and yes, i installed it and i actually tried it either in sigle and multiplayer).

    So here is my FEEDBACK.
    Lets start with good and neutral changes that i think u did right:
    1)Unit abilities that do no damage now only grant XP to their user once per battle
    Reduced number of times tier 2,3 and 4 units can be attacked and still grant XP (XP for kills is unaffected by this)
    In autobattles that changes almost nothing, but this already prevent any XP-farming exploints in PBEM, so i this this is enough already and your changes about heal-nerf is overkill already.
    2)Hasty Plunder now takes 2 turns to destroy a city, not 1.
    3)Were Bear ability now requires 3 action points to be used, but leaves the user with one action point afterwards (like Phase)
    4)Rogue heroes now start with +2 defense (was +1)
    The Rogue hero’s +1 physical damage bonus for ranged attacks, now gives +1 on another channel for non-physical attacks
    Rogue Blowpipe now shoots Acid Darts as well as Normal Darts
    Acid Darts is now 3 blight, 4 fire (was 4/3)
    Nymphs will no longer be given as rewards for clearing the Spring Of Life, Creation Node or Great Farm
    Rogues now get Inflict Crippling wounds at level 1 (was 9) for 3 points (was 5)
    Rogues now get Charm at level 5 (was 9)
    Rogues now get Shadow Step at level 9, 5 points
    Harmonizing Energy now heals everything (previously didn’t affect machines or undead)
    Invigorate now has a 2 turn cooldown.
    Thats all good, slight werebear nerf and rogue buffing.

    So no problem here, and now lets start to talk about obviosly BAD changes:
    1)Dreadnaughts now get Guardian Flame at level 3 instead of Bestor Iron Heart at level 3
    Arch Druids now get Nourishing Meal at level 5 (was Healing at level 3)
    Arch Druids now get Befriend Animal at level 5 (was 1)
    Arch Druids now get Spirit Of The Land and Natural Immunity at level 1 (was 5)
    Arch Druids now get Nature’s Resistance for 3 points (was 4)
    Theocrats now get Healing Aura at level 3 (was level 1)
    Theocrats now get Bestow Iron Heart at level 1 (was Healing)
    Heal Undead is now strength 25 (was 20) and once per battle (was 2 turn cooldown)
    2)Settlers can no longer be hurried when being produced in cities
    Settlers now cost 250g (was 200)

    First of all, why should druid get his healing ability at lvl 5 while drednouth got it lvl 3?
    Why warlordhero got healing aura lvl 1, while theocrat hero got healing aura at lvl 3?
    Is warlords and dred classes that specialize in healing powers???

    Dear Tombles, please believe me that your personal antiheal crusade will ressurect the most horrific, stupid and boring ABUSE-tactics that that game ever knew…
    STUPID TACTIC #1
    Mass hero-magic-nuking. So player got 4-5 heroes and lvl them ALL only into casting points and attacking magic. Than in simulatious turns, this hero army attacks in last seconds of the turn an enemy city and then just start spaming chainlighting, smite ect, turn after turn, just sit at his ass and nuking the defender, then after mana ends he just retreat and after several seconds attack again (next strategic turn) with fresh casting points….and he can do it again and again and again and AGAIN. While in current patch lots of heroes (druid, theo and necromancer) got multiple use healing…this is not an issue, because u can heal and strungle this stupid magic spam…
    But in your BETA patch this boring spellspam become IMBA, cuz no more multiple heal and 4-5 heroes with 25-45 mana each can just obliterate any defender forces without any risk at all (even if defender army go out of walls with all this fragile archer etc it tooks lots of time to get to attackers end of the battlemap), it just takes fairly long, just image 20-25 combat rounds of stupid boring nuke-spam! And next strategic turn attacker just repeat this tactic, killing ranged defenders army with ease and no risk.

    STUPID TACTIC #2
    Again we talk about sieges, if attacker got 1-2 trebushe now, he could only destroy wall with it and than forced to start an attack. He is not able to kill all defender forces with single trebushe with range advantage because his enemy almost always got multiple use heroheal but…in BETA it is a issue again, attacker can 20-25 turn to shot defender with 1-2 trebushe SLOWLY and very BORING but killing it, cuz most of the cases defender got no multiple use heal and he will be forced to leave walls and attack or slooooowly dieng.

    Are this gameplay changes good, Tombles? I dont think so, looks like forcing people to abuse effective but very boring and foul siege tactics!

    Now lets talk abour archdruid nerfs….
    Seriously…Do you really going to nerf one of the weakest class in the game?? (yes, @Exhnihil, non-tigran Archdruid is very, very weak class, and any skillful player with desire to win…wont choose non-tigran AD ever, if u dont believe me, – you can ask any other top-player, AbedenegoJC for example…he doesnt like forim wars so we dont see him here, but our position about this patch is 99% same.)
    AD is weak in terms of neutral-autobattles, it is pretty hard and luck-depended thing to evolve a spider or snake even now, but in BETA with all those heal nerf…i tried it and i found it almost mazohistic to do.

    At last lets talk about ololo-imba city spam.
    @BBB if u watched my tourny game vs SantiL, u could see he did mass settler, he got hepta+monoculture combo, but i was able to crush him with no problems at all just with good and technological timing agression. City spam is powerfull but fairly easy to stop if you are skillful and active enough.
    @tombles, instead of plain nerfing of strategy…there is much better idea to buff the counterplay against it. It is really much more smart way. Cityspam is good ONLY vs absolutely passive players.
    How about buffing counterplay, for example more easy destruction of cities for all, so it will be even more easy to harras spamer.
    But even if you just want easy decision, please choose at least one of this nerfs…
    Settlers can no longer be hurried when being produced in cities OR Settlers now cost 250g (was 200)…both this nerfs…i am afraid this will just reanimate old 2014 stupid blind-rush mindless tactics metagame. I ve tried to do some expansion with dfarfs in BETA and…275!!!!gold settlers…Sry, Tobles, but this is OVERKILL. Regular dfarf village with builderhall (40 production) will produce one settler in 6-7 turns!!!! That is rly frusrating, todays multiplayer match at medium map lasts about 25-40 turns in average, and 6-7 turns settlers without chance to hurry it up…those heavy investions just will never get work….looks like 90% lost time, money, population and production…while your enemy very likely can invest those 6-7 turns of production into the force that kill you very soon.
    @tombles, i understand u just want to slowdown this tactic a little, but from my BETA-experience it is just total overkill, just no reason to build second settler at all, too much investions…too long time of refund…too much risk of just being destroyed by any rush or active harrasing.
    Please choose just 1 nerf at least…+50 gold OR no hurry up! Together…this makes any expansion just suicidal against any active and agressive player, believe me, i ve got a lot of experience in settling and counter-settling.

    #233263

    ephafn
    Member

    Just tossing a suggestion in case Repair Machine is to be nerfed to once per battle:

    Gives Repair Machine to base Engineers, and put their upkeep ability to Gold medal, but buffed up (let say 4 hp per turn). Since that makes them better than before, maybe make them either more expensive or squishier.

    Then the Master Guild Builders will be left for non-Dreadnought classes who want to heal a few machines (Trebuchets).

    (Note: I have zero idea whether that change would be balanced or not.)

    #233265

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    So here is my FEEDBACK.

    OK, thanks for taking the time to type that out.

    I am looking into rolling back some of the changes that were put in (specifically, when certain abilities unlock). Unfortunately, I cannot undo the trend of having heroes only heal once per turn. I understand it can lead to annoying exploits in live multiplayer, but without it, we have annoying exploits in PBEM. In the end, I think the PBEM issue is more serious, so I’m choosing to fix that one. I can’t please everyone here, I’m sorry. If you like, I can show you how to make a mod that reverses the change that you can use to play live multiplayer.

    As for the Settler thing, after listening to ExNihil, I decided to run some numbers on how things worked, and in the end I think he’s right that “No Rush” is a bad change. I’m going to revert that change, but leave the 50 extra gold cost increase.

    #233267

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ Azazir

    Simple solution: LIMIT the number of heroes! Why would you have FIVE heroes in a 2-player game? Seems excessive.

    #233269

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Gives Repair Machine to base Engineers, and put their upkeep ability to Gold medal, but buffed up (let say 4 hp per turn). Since that makes them better than before, maybe make them either more expensive or squishier.

    I think that would be too much ephafn. Lack of easy healing is the one of only things which stops Dread being the strongest class (the other being slow movement), so I need to be careful about giving them more access to it.

    #233270

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ Tombles

    If you revert the No-Hurry thing for settlers – shouldn’t we then maybe think about fine-tuning the Hurry costs? I mean, 100 happiness penalty, no matter the number of turns hurried is just a lot of luck (does your town have 300+ happiness or not.

    Wouldn’t it be preferable, if everyone would “suffer” the same from hurrying production?

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