Update 1.701+ Patch Notes – Updated 6/10/2015

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Update 1.701+ Patch Notes – Updated 6/10/2015

This topic contains 551 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  Garresh 6 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #233427

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    I suspect that’s because you don’t really understand what my position is. Regardless, I look forwards to what you produce, I’m sure the results will be very special!

    #233431

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I don’t want to hurt the MP crowd, and what I say isn’t meant disrespectful, so please don’t get me wrong, but because of the time constraints and sim turn antics MP would seem to be what I would call “procedural” gaming, because to be a successful MP player you need to follow tried and true procedures. There isn’t the time to develop new strategies each game. The opposite of procedural gaming is situational gaming, and MP play is a solid foundation of procedures to follow (blind, because of time constraints), and the ability to see when it becomes necessary to “get situational” (taking opportunities).

    However – as soon as the crowd does FIND a certain procedure that rules for the moment, INEVITABLY the game must be balanced around it, because in the end you don’t want to limit the game to “you have to follow a certain procedure to beat most opponents”.

    Ideally, where live and MP and the rest meet – for MP you should be able to develop procedures (necessity because of time constraint), but there should be, let’s say A COUPLE of them, all being somewhat equal, success depending on the actual execution of procedures and maybe even the linking of many different smaller ones.

    So as soon as there IS a dominant meta, rebalancing of the game is inevitable.

    At least that’s my take on it, and actually MP playing therefore does a lot to find game balance, even though, ironically, this means, they will have to learn to work with new toys once in a while.

    Now, the same can be said about PBEM. This is “competitive Single Player”, and obviously this crowd develops its own procedures – concentrating on TACTICAL, since that’s manual. Which means, MP will find STRATEGICAL winning procedures (spam BUILD X or Y and Z or spam global spells)(in the end it doesn’t matter whether it’s supports or settlers), while the PBEM crowd is bound to find TACTICAL winning procedures (Spam combat spells, spam abilities, have certain unit combinations, acquire units on the fly and so on).

    BOTH must be reigned in – and that’s what Tombles does, and I think Tombles and his guys do an awesome job of gaming support here, considering the game is out 18 months or so, and it’s still going on and on.

    #233433

    Chimaira
    Member

    I just wanted to say that I don’t like the healing changes at all. If its precisely only a PBEM problem couldn’t there be just a mod dedicated to PBEM instead of changing the game for everyone? Anyway since it seems that they are going to be introduced anyway I am not going to beat the dead horse anymore. So I want to ask about the modding. Tombles, you said that all changes could be reverted – is it a hard thing to mod? What exactly should be modified? I guess its unit’s skills and heroes upgrades. Anything else?

    #233434

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    The exploit exists in single player as well, so I still think it’s worth fixing. I understand the changes won’t be to everyone’s tastes though, but I can’t please everyone here!

    Making a mod is easy, the guide in the modding section explains how to do it step by step

    Things you might want to change:

    1) Arch Druid hero upgrades are in SkillArchdruid.rpk, Theocrat ones are in AoW_SpellTest.rpk, Dreadnought are in SKillDreadnought.rpk . Just find the upgrades that link to the new healing abilities, and change the name, description and unit property to the ability you want them to have (so, replace Bestow Iron Heart with Healing, for example)

    2) Heal Undead is in AoW_UnitProperties.rpk, in the “Touch Heal” category. It’s a bit fiddly, but it shouldn’t be too hard to figure out. Note that healing abilities are in two parts, the “TC” part is the ability you use in combat, while the “SM” is the part that heals units each turn on the world map.

    #233436

    Zaskow
    Member

    I suspect that’s because you don’t really understand what my position is.

    Vice versa, your position is very clear to understand. In your view PBEM >>> live MP. Live MP is victim to sacrifice. That’s all.

    #233437

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Nope, you don’t get it, but that’s ok. We made the mod tools so you can fix these things yourselves, and I’m sure that what you make will provide people with lots of entertainment, in one way or another 🙂

    #233438

    ExNihil
    Member

    Just for the proposed granary changes – I think if settlers hadv two prereqs: builders hall + granary that would be very effective indeed. So you will need both buildings, which is good. I’d say this is most effective. If not I’d +1 the granary idea. As well as some of the other changes proposed here, see what JJ for example @tombles.

    #233440

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    You can’t have 2 pre-reqs for one unit, it won’t work I’m afraid.

    #233444

    Zaskow
    Member

    Making a mod is easy, the guide in the modding section explains how to do it step by step

    Things you might want to change:

    Is better way to back to 1.6 version, block your changes in mod and then back to 1.7?

    #233447

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Yeah, that can work. Opt out of the open beta, make a mod that modifies the things that I described, but don’t actually change them. Then go back into the open beta. Your mod should now override my changes with the older versions from before this update.

    #233448

    ExNihil
    Member

    Perhaps there us a way to turn this into a toggle option? I mean healing. Cooldown or single use. Like hero-resurgence. This willresolve the issue, no?

    #233449

    Zaskow
    Member

    Yeah, that can work. Opt out of the open beta, make a mod that modifies the things that I described, but don’t actually change them. Then go back into the open beta. Your mod should now override my changes with the older versions from before this update.

    Can you leave 1.6 version in steam beta list for long time? I think it’s not very difficult for developers.

    Perhaps there us a way to turn this into a toggle option? I mean healing. Cooldown or single use. Like hero-resurgence. This willresolve the issue, no?

    Too much work with UI I suppose.

    However, I’d like to see separate slider for speeding up arrival of RG upgrade. Thread about this. Is this possible, @tombles?

    #233451

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Can you leave 1.6 version in steam beta list for long time? I think it’s not very difficult for developers.

    1.6 is the version from before modding, do you mean 1.7?

    However, I’d like to see separate slider for speeding up arrival of RG upgrade. Thread about this. Is this possible, @tombles?

    I’m afraid it’s not on our list of things to do. I can direct you to the settings on monday if you like, I don’t know where they are without looking them up.

    #233452

    Zaskow
    Member

    1.6 is the version from before modding, do you mean 1.7?

    Ah, yes.

    I’m afraid it’s not on our list of things to do. I can direct you to the settings on monday if you like, I don’t know where they are without looking them up.

    Sadly.
    Can you at least advice me where I can edit values needed for RG upgrades?

    #233454

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    In CityLogix.rpk you can find the CitySize settings. They say things like how much population you need to reach a certain size, and how much race governance XP each size gives per turn.

    In Title.rpk, in AoW Global Settings, you can find “Race Command Settings”. This lets you mod how much XP is needed to reach each level. A lot of minor mods tweak this resource, so changing it means it will clash with some other mods though.

    And yes, when we do an update we normally leave the previous version available, so I think I can do the same with this one.

    #233459

    quo
    Member

    You can change Heal Undead back to its original setting by going into AoW_UnitProperties.rpk, finding the Heal Undead TC object, and changing the Cooldown to 2 and Once Per Battle to False. Here is a screenshot of it (two shots side by side since the Ability panel is too long to fit in a single screen):

    Making this change is not without a partial cost. It means any other mods that also change Heal Undead TC for whatever reason will conflict.

    I realize you’re hearing from many different sides Tombles, and also that you are caught between a bunch of different positions. However, I do want to say is that I feel this is a very big change being made to address a relatively small subset of users and that the healing “exploit” has been with the game since its inception and viewed by most players as a feature rather than an exploit. I think if PBEM needs to be balanced it would be better to do that in an official mod dedicated to that specific purpose. Call it the “tournament mod” or something. One position I don’t particularly want to be in is having to watch PVP tournaments and encourage participants on strategies to make sure my side wins and that fundamental game mechanics don’t change to balance out what happened in a tournament that only featured a handful of players.

    I’d also like to point out that a dedicated tournament mod is less disruptive to tournament players than to single players, because in single player the ability to stack mods is gold. The more abilities single players have to revert to make the game function in that environment, the more conflicts between mods. Tournament players are presumably all using the same mod or small set of mods and do not face this challenge. This is why I opposed the Heal Undead change even tho I can technical revert it.

    I realize you’ve made your decision. I hope you consider this for the future. I think you do a great job as dev BTW. Thank you for your time.

    #233460

    Zaskow
    Member

    Thanks! And last question: about what settings you told me?

    I can direct you to the settings on monday if you like, I don’t know where they are without looking them up.

    #233464

    quo
    Member

    Eh and I just realized I circled the wrong setting in that picture. Should have been the Cooldown field higher up on the list. Oh well I figure most people can find the right place pretty quickly. 🙂

    #233467

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Thanks! And last question: about what settings you told me?

    Those are the only settings that there are, Zaskow. If you want to control the speed of RG upgrades.

    #233469

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well,

    I think some sort of compromise is due.

    How about making sure that theo heroes get a strong 1xheal? I mean make sure their version of bestow Iron heart heals 25 or 30HP?

    This should make sense, it does for me at least.

    Same goes for AD etc…

    I can definitely see Sorcerer heroes getting a better mend magical creature 🙂

    It will still be 1x per battle but will be more substantial, and the amount of healing it will do in between battles will be more impressive, that is, the sustain, for MP that is more significant.

    I also agree that the fact PBEM has this impact is not wholly fair for the MP community. There is no way that people will actually use mods to play together, human beings are not this social, and unless you devs are going to incorporate some sort of delivery mechanism into the game itself for mods, its not going to work, so mods for MP are not going to be something very functional I am afraid.

    #233470

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    No, I don’t think so. I’ve been compromising all week, and it won’t help. People don’t like it when I change things, and they don’t like it when things are made weaker, so they all complain. In the end though, the sky isn’t really falling, the problems aren’t as bad as people fear, and in a few weeks time it won’t be such a big deal any more.

    The last update might have some minor tweaks, but short an actual real problem, I don’t see any more big changes. I guess it’s possible I’ll do the “Settlers from the Storehouse” thing, but to be honest, I’m not sure what purpose it will serve, it feels more like a change for the sake of a change.

    #233471

    quo
    Member

    No, I don’t think so. I’ve been compromising all week, and it won’t help. People don’t like it when I change things, and they don’t like it when things are made weaker, so they all complain. In the end though, the sky isn’t really falling, the problems aren’t as bad as people fear, and in a few weeks time it won’t be such a big deal any more.

    I know it’s a small blessing, but I think the fact that people are this passionate about a game you made a year and a half after release is huge testament to how successful it is. So even though I’m sure its stressful, I hope you at least get some assurance that you built something awesome enough for people to get emotional about. 🙂

    #233473

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I think, with Healing you have to see the bigger picture.

    In the end, there is the desire to optimize your gameplay for every given situation, and optimizing the gameplay especially for PBEM and Singleplayer (for MP as well, but Auto is a wild card here), and that means: Do not waste Gold, Experience and Mana or Speed.

    That means: explore a given map as fast as possible to gain as much as XP as possible; never lose a unit and never waste a movement point.

    I think, it’s fairly obvious that this MUST NOT be possible.
    Healing and Regeneration (and Orcs’s Victory Rush as well) is working to allow maximum play, because it undoes the actions of other troops. Healing as a once-usable tactical ability is fairly good, when combined with an otherwise somewhat weaker unit: you sacrifice a bit of fighting power (which actually isn’t the case; healer supports should be weaker than non-healers, by right) to gain the ability to Heal an endangered unit thereby saving it from dying, or, to bring a badly damaged unit back to where it is able to fight again.
    MORE is just allowing you to plough trough, and for that the easier settings are to be used.

    Limiting Healing is essential for having differences, otherwise it doesn’t matter whether a battle is tight or easy, because if you win, chances are you will be unscathed, and that’s not good.

    #233474

    quo
    Member

    Limiting Healing is essential for having differences, otherwise it doesn’t matter whether a battle is tight or easy, because if you win, chances are you will be unscathed, and that’s not good.

    I’m posting this not because I am arguing for Tombles to change his decision on this issue, but to provide a counterpoint to this narrative.

    Often in 4X games it’s assumed that the purpose single player game is to simulate PVP, but with an AI opponent. I this is a mistake. I think PVP is an experience that has some overlaps with single player, but the purpose of single player is much broader than PVP.

    IMO, good AI players are not simply stand-ins for human opponents but instead general obstacles to be overcome. Part of making a good single player 4X is realizing that to immerse players, your AI has to act irrationally and avoid breaking the fourth wall.

    In PVP, both players know they are humans in the real world playing a video game. In SP, the AI does not get to know this. The AI should know something about the rules of the game and be playing a game similar to the players, and also be trying to win. But the AI does not set out into the world with the idea of murdering the human players as efficiently as possible.

    With that in mind, the idea that single player gamers are “exploiting” healing when they use it that way it has existed since this game launched is somewhat silly. It is exploitative to the extent that it may aid their game against the AI. How disruptive it actually is can be argued. You can “abuse” it, or not. The “fix” for this, making healing not recharge during the fight, just means that after blowing their heals early on, some units just become archers. You can say fights never last that long; I say if they didn’t I wouldn’t have anything to comment on. 10 to 15 round fights happen all the time in my SP games.

    Meanwhile, single players are notorious for reloading save games when battles don’t do their way. There is no sense fighting this, it’s the way most of them are going to approach things. Is this unfair? Maybe to the extreme hardcore crowd. But it should illustrate an important point. Most single players–in fact, the vast majority of players in general–are not looking for an iron man, no holds barred tough it out mode. They want a reasonably balanced challenge with opponents who are human-like but not so human that they protest save scumming or who are actually aware they are playing a game. The concept of “diplomacy,” after all, is teaching AI to act somewhat irrationally to reward players for manipulating it.

    I can see the argument that healing actually unbalanced the single player game, but I don’t really agree with it. I saw it as a necessary evil, to keep fights from devolving into waves of archers shooting and back and forth because everyone blew all their cooldowns. I also understand the argument about encouraging boring gameplay, altho IMO Healing is the least offender here. The worst, to me, is skills like Exalted Martyrs that reward you for throwing rocks turn after turn. I feel strongly enough about that skill to mod it an un-public mod just so I don’t get tempted to Martyr farm in my Theo games (I just have the skill give Martyrs Resurgence).

    Ironically I think the biggest group to take a hit due to the healing change specifically is AI Necromancers. Previously a player usually couldn’t easily just spellcast them to death because the healers would have their heal recharge every 2 turns. Now you just need to peg them once, they heal, problem solved for the rest of the battle. Where before there was a bit of a rush to deal with them before they made even more problems.

    #233481

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    The main issue is, with the current system, healing is either once per battle, or on a cooldown, and therefore can be “abused” to essentially negate all damage that was done during a battle. This makes the whole ideas of world map healing become irrelevant, and throws off the balance of how quickly players can move an army from battle to battle. In the past, we didn’t care much because (as you say) single player people self police, if they want to abuse a mechanic, then its their choice, and they can simply not abuse it if it’s an issue. PBEM of course messed all that up, and meant we now have to remove some of the things that were broken but fun in SP, because they’re just plain broken in PBEM.

    I think in the future, having some type of “Can be used X times per battle” would be very helpful. If I could make Healing work, say, 3 times a battle, that would be great, unfortunately that’s not supported in the system.

    #233485

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, I actually play mostly PBEM ATM and since I am very busy and have a family, I doubt I will return to my serious MP days, so that is that. I also like the changes in this patch by and large as they are right now. Saying that I understand the complaints from the MP direction, since they do hurt the MP guys. Not in autocombat, but in the few PvP fights you are actually building towards, you are going to find yourself with sub-optimal abilities.

    What I said about mods and MP is going to be quite precise I am afraid, I seriously doubt there is going to be any degree of MP mod gaming due to poor coordination of mods etc. So people are going to be disgruntled, but they will swallow the frog OFC. Problem is that 15HP per heal is quite low, especially for classes that, unlike theo, don’t have any other sources of healing except this hero unit. Thats why I suggested that as a compensation this will be increased.

    I understand you are pissed off @tombles from all the arguments etc. but do you really want to be in the position of not making changes because @zaskow et al. were so irritating that you made up your mind? Whats the point to find the best solution or to show who is in charge?

    #233487

    ephafn
    Member

    Gives Repair Machine to base Engineers, and put their upkeep ability to Gold medal, but buffed up (let say 4 hp per turn). Since that makes them better than before, maybe make them either more expensive or squishier.

    I think that would be too much ephafn. Lack of easy healing is the one of only things which stops Dread being the strongest class (the other being slow movement), so I need to be careful about giving them more access to it.

    No problem, that was just an idea that popped into my mind.

    The last update might have some minor tweaks, but short an actual real problem, I don’t see any more big changes. I guess it’s possible I’ll do the “Settlers from the Storehouse” thing, but to be honest, I’m not sure what purpose it will serve, it feels more like a change for the sake of a change.

    From my point of view (SP + coop PBEM), the point of that change would be to slow down the fastest way to city-spam (Builder Hall -> Settlers) since you will either have to build an extra building (Builder Hall -> Store House -> Settlers) or do with less production (Store House -> Settlers). But in either case it would also favor play-styles that are taking longer term strategies, since both Store House and Settlers have long term benefits while Builder Hall has much more short term benefits.

    Hum… Before righting this paragraph I was in favor of the change. But now I’m ambivalent…

    [On an unrelated note that is never going to get implemented, I would like to see population costs come back as the rushing cost. Something like 10 to 20 pop per hammer instead of 50 gold per turn. But that would make the early game more sluggish since this is the point of the game where gold is aplenty (from clearing and gold piles) and population is not (want to get the first city upgrade ASAP).]

    Also, about Heptatopia, would it be possible to require 5 cities instead of 7 towns? That would fit the description better, and you should still have the translation for Pentatopia, since it was the previous name, correct?

    #233490

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    I understand you are pissed off @tombles from all the arguments etc. but do you really want to be in the position of not making changes because @zaskow et al. were so irritating that you made up your mind? Whats the point to find the best solution or to show who is in charge?

    Dude, you’re assuming an awful lot about why I’ve done what I’ve done. You’re accusing me, essentially, of putting my ego before what’s best for the game. That’s not really very fair, and fairly insulting.

    Anyways, it’s not about being pissed off, it’s about accepting that whatever I change, people will complain. I have a responsibility to weigh those complaints and make a judgement about what to do, I then adjust that judgement based on more feedback, etc. This process has occurred, and people are still not happy, but that’s inevitable. I did change some things based on the Russian player’s complaints, but I didn’t do all they ask, since that would just piss off another group who would also start to complain and because, to be honest, I think they’re wrong.

    At the end of the day, we’ve reached a point where almost all that needs to be said has been said. Some people aren’t happy about some of the changes and they’ve expressed that, I’ve expressed why I’m not changing them back. I have to stop at some point and say “OK, this is what we’re putting out”, because the feedback, suggestions and complaints will never end otherwise, and I do have other things I need to do.

    #233492

    quo
    Member

    I think in the future, having some type of “Can be used X times per battle” would be very helpful. If I could make Healing work, say, 3 times a battle, that would be great, unfortunately that’s not supported in the system.

    Understood and mostly agreed. I think to make it work, Healing needs to consume a resource. As long as its basically free, you are always in a position to spend it. This is actually still true with it being 1:combat, from a resource management standpoint its beneficial to get into small fights to trigger it, and with Partisan specifically beneficial to attack, heal, flee, attack.

    I think a Mana cost is doable under the current system with some jiggering (I don’t recommend doing that in a mostly finished game tho, maybe in AoW4. 🙂 )

    You could, for example, have each heal used during a combat increase in mana cost consumption by a sliding scale. First one is free, then going up from there. You could also have an offset somewhere (e.g. each Devout unit on the field offsets the mana cost by 5%).

    #233498

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, you have made some changes because of PBEM abuse, have you not? The result is that a group of MP players – and I assume a much larger group than are actually active in the forum, are hurt by this. So I am proposing something that will help, I hope, to make this group’s experience better. What is their specific issue? That can actually be ascertained I guess through a reasonably short discussion (not taking too much of any of our valuable time, yes my time actually does cost money to some German university institutions). And it can be resolved I guess with a fix that doesn’t break the game in any bad way, and works for all game moduses while retaining the choice you opted for bottom line.

    If I could, I would fabricate for you, as for myself, discourse partners that were assumption free, I’d make them in china for 99 cents and ship them for free as well :).

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