Update 1.701+ Patch Notes – Updated 6/10/2015

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Update 1.701+ Patch Notes – Updated 6/10/2015

This topic contains 551 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  Garresh 6 years, 9 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 361 through 390 (of 552 total)
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  • #233508

    Chimaira
    Member

    The exploit exists in single player as well, so I still think it’s worth fixing. I understand the changes won’t be to everyone’s tastes though, but I can’t please everyone here!

    Making a mod is easy, the guide in the modding section explains how to do it step by step

    Things you might want to change:

    1) Arch Druid hero upgrades are in SkillArchdruid.rpk, Theocrat ones are in AoW_SpellTest.rpk, Dreadnought are in SKillDreadnought.rpk . Just find the upgrades that link to the new healing abilities, and change the name, description and unit property to the ability you want them to have (so, replace Bestow Iron Heart with Healing, for example)

    2) Heal Undead is in AoW_UnitProperties.rpk, in the “Touch Heal” category. It’s a bit fiddly, but it shouldn’t be too hard to figure out. Note that healing abilities are in two parts, the “TC” part is the ability you use in combat, while the “SM” is the part that heals units each turn on the world map.

    Hey Tombles thanks for help! I already managed to fiddle a bit with editor. It really was quite easy to mod it. I also reverted some changes that were supposed to offset the loss of healing for druid and theocrat so I moved the auras point and level requirement to original settings. I have a question though – were the changes to the lesser / greater reanimate undead intended as a buff linked with the heal undead nerf or was this an independent change?

    #233510

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    What is their specific issue?

    Well, Azzazir was assigned to be the Voice Of Reason, so his post is probably the most accurate:

    http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/update-1-701-patch-notes/page/10/#post-233261

    He argues that repeat healing allows players to avoid exploits which players use to try and force defenders to leave the walls during sieges. I don’t find his arguments very convincing, since in each case their are alternate solutions which would also block the exploit (such as building defensive trebuchets, or defending with spell casting heroes). He also argues that Archdruid is the weakest hero and we’ve made it worse, once again a fairly subjective argument, especially given all the buffs that AD got to compensate.

    We did undo some of the AD and Theocrat hero nerfs, but the heal one we actually extended to Dreads, so it’s now global. So, I actually did the very opposite of what he wanted, though at least it’s fair now! To make him happy, I need healing on heroes to be repeatable for the course of the battle, which is the very thing I do not want to do. Increasing the heal amount will not help, here.

    have a question though – were the changes to the lesser / greater reanimate undead intended as a buff linked with the heal undead nerf or was this an independent change?

    Linked to the healing change, if Heal Undead is repeatable, you probably want to undo that bit.

    #233519

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    EVERY ability (of units) could of course cost Mana…

    #233530

    jennaiel
    Member

    Thank you Tombles. I love most of the changes.I feel actually Theo is strengthened to other classes since it is the only class which can have repeatable healing in battles later to racial units,heroes other than the undead.
    I am a single player game who is constrained to single player due to university firewall settings. I would love to play PBEM once I get the opportunity.
    I like both the exp,healing changes.Forces you not to painfully prolong battles to leech as much exp and healing as possible.
    I have a few suggestions.
    1) Right now we still feel need to maximize experience in fight //Like using mighty meed and flanking down higher tiers with a buttercup fairy in a hit/2 gives much less exp compared to attacking at range with obstacles. Many times we need to do cumbersome painful/unfun strategizing to reap maximum exp . I would instead like to just go hit as hard as possible and finish it fast .
    So how about giving a max total amount of exp per enemy unit. If you kill the unit in fewer hits , the remaining exp is given to killing unit. Units gain exp only for first buff they do . Even if unit has 3/4 buff abilities only one of the buffs used first time grant experience.

    2) I understand healing has to be nerfed since it contributes to both inbattle and in between turns healing. But a mighty Theocrat Hero gains iron heart by spending 4 points which is identical to human priest’s inbuilt heal .If feels a bit underwhelming. Maybe let heroes have a greater iron heart/greater Nourishing Meal which is 1.5X heal of base version.

    3)Rogue bards are the most annoying least used units. Rogue focus is on irregulars. Irregulars get many cool buffes and even high speed with explorer. Rogue sneak stacks have no use for bard, since he cannot keep up with any rogue stack.
    How about make bard irregular and lose convert ability. Bard will be still highly useful for +300 morale and ranged attacks. I love to have one bard per stack , but no stack can fit a slow bard.

    Again thank you for being a developed who actuallt interacts and listens to players.

    #233536

    1) Right now we still feel need to maximize experience in fight //Like using mighty meed and flanking down higher tiers with a buttercup fairy in a hit/2 gives much less exp compared to attacking at range with obstacles. Many times we need to do cumbersome painful/unfun strategizing to reap maximum exp . I would instead like to just go hit as hard as possible and finish it fast .

    I think these current changes are enough.

    2) I understand healing has to be nerfed since it contributes to both inbattle and in between turns healing. But a mighty Theocrat Hero gains iron heart by spending 4 points which is identical to human priest’s inbuilt heal .If feels a bit underwhelming. Maybe let heroes have a greater iron heart/greater Nourishing Meal which is 1.5X heal of base version.

    I agree, early game, heal is better than Iron Heart and Nourishing Meal. An alternative is to reduce the points cost by 1.

    3)Rogue bards are the most annoying least used units. Rogue focus is on irregulars. Irregulars get many cool buffes and even high speed with explorer. Rogue sneak stacks have no use for bard, since he cannot keep up with any rogue stack.
    How about make bard irregular and lose convert ability. Bard will be still highly useful for +300 morale and ranged attacks. I love to have one bard per stack , but no stack can fit a slow bard.

    Again thank you for being a developed who actuallt interacts and listens to players.

    I agree that they’re pretty bad, making it an irregular and removing its Charm ability (or have it as an unlockable upgrade skill) would make it useable.

    #233543

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ quo

    I’ve read your post 3 times, and I think you are simply missing the point of why Healing is in the spotlight and getting reigned in.
    First of all, yes, all observations about SP, I more or less agree with it. But the thing is, when the AI fights it fights in auto and it loses stuff, Healing or not, because the AI can’t cheat itself. If YOU play against the AI you do better. HEAL (and a couple of others, but those are once-per-battle anyway except Ghoul Curse), are making sure you don’t lose things and you keep your ability to fight on.
    as I explained, as a one-time-ability it’s purely tactical: you sacrifice an attack action in order to boost the health of a friendly unit. Once per battle it’s just an ability that offers a certain value.
    If you can use it an unlimited time in battle, everything that lets you control and delay a battle simply makes the ability stronger.

    Which means, if you combine certain abilities, repeated use i simply too powerful.

    #233544

    Also I want to reiterate that I agree that heal changes were not necessary. I play PBEM mostly but from my experience Theocrat and AD could only keep up because they kept their armies near full HP. Any mass advantages they had in PBEM were purely because of XP-farming and early game conversion abilities, both of which are removed/fixed.

    This is not limited to MP, currently many SP players believe Theocrat and AD are weaker classes because they cannot compete with production focused classes late game (WL Manticores, Rogue Shadowstalkers, Dread Juggs/cannons, Sorc mass stun supports). Just look at forums posts complaining about powerful units in SP, it is almost always one of the aforementioned offenders. Heal removal affects AD and Theocrat the most, which are the weaker classes in SP.

    To me, the heal change could potentially add diversity to the game if a lot more work was put into changing the rest of the game, but by itself the change is detrimental to balance for live MP, SP, and PBEM.

    Plus, after removing XP-farming I see very few people arguing for these heal changes but many arguing against. Most people who advocated for the heal change just wanted XP-farming removed and heal was an obvious example. IMO for now, I think it is best to revert heal changes to see how all the other changes affect the game first.

    #233551

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I play SP and PBEM, and AD is – imo – extremely powerful, because of their mobility. The one problem AD has, has nothing to do with Healing but with Mana availability. AD is still the class with the best access to disabling abilities.

    Suggestion:

    I think, that there is a logical link missing for AD heroes and Shamans and that is HEAL ANIMAL. This should be a Level 1 AD ability and a Shaman medal ability and simply heal animals for 15 or 20 points – ONCE PER BATTLE (!).
    Oh, and it should be cheaper than Healing: 2 points.

    That SP pplayers have a problem with production classes isn’t a new problem.

    #233558

    Garresh
    Member

    Bards are the worst rogue unit, but they’re not useless. The thing about bards that makes them odd is that they aren’t really synergistic with the typical rogue strategy. HOWEVER, they ARE synergistic with a racial unit strategy. Though it is pretty uncommon, a rogue CAN just build a bard or two, then build racial units an focus entirely on combat spells. Doing so, and then using happy racials with Sadism is actually a pretty okay strategy.

    Halflings especially love bards, for obvious reasons. Also while it is risky, bardspam is still a pretty okay strategy, and with Charm accessible at lower levels for a rogue now, it could actually be a little stronger now. Especially given the current city spam meta.

    While I will not say Bards are in a perfect spot, I personally consider them to be viable. To change them to irregulars would actually in a sense merge two different rogue strategies into one, while not directly address the issues a bardspam strategy has which causes problems for it. Mainly I’m referring to what happens if your luck runs out and you miss all your converts, and are left with a stack of mediocre combat units.

    Change their type would be a bad call. If anything, a slight stat change of some type would be better, such as changing charm to short range, or giving them a little more melee damage. Of course, with more undead roaming the map now they are situationally weaker since the last DLC, but it hasn’t reached the point they need an overhaul. Personally, given the other slight buffs rogues have received for their earlygame, I don’t consider a bard change a priority. Still worth a look, but with the current debates on how to deal with settler spam it really falls way down the list on importance.

    Edit: Actually, I haven’t done bards in a little while. Let me take another look at them and see how they sit again to refresh my memory. I remember them being mediocre but viable. If I run into issues I’ll maybe post back here.

    #233564

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Upping their MP to 32 might help? That would let them keep up with stacks better, which is one of their main jobs, and it’s not like they’re heavily armored or anything that might explain why they don’t move faster. It would help them get into Charm range too.

    #233567

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    32 MPs would make them a lot more dangerous, that’s for sure. If necessary, I would have a nice ability instead to offer I plan to use for the mod you were not interested in to check whether it would be worth a DLC or not. 🙂

    #233571

    Zaskow
    Member

    Upping their MP to 32 might help?

    Won’t help.

    That would let them keep up with stacks better, which is one of their main jobs, and it’s not like they’re heavily armored or anything that might explain why they don’t move faster.

    They are not military personal, which trained to make long and fast marches.
    What is the sense to make them more mobile?
    Bards are horrible as support for stack (sorry, but Bard skills is not amazing), have mediocre attack (except dwarven or elvish variants), have weak combat abilities (Charm works normally mostly against T1s). It’s just more profitable to buy any racial support with powerful attack or strategic heal.

    Also bard is useless for stealth rogue stacks just because they haven’t any concealment and real mobility skills (flying, floating).

    To fix this problem I see such ways:
    – buff somehow their direct attacks;
    – give them a heal ability (tactical or only strategic);
    – buff somehow Charm;
    – give them new ability – something like Wail of Despair of Banshee, but with opposite effect – buff morale to allies or debuff morale of enemies (actually, I planned this ability to my own mod).

    #233574

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Giving them 32mp does buff their combat abilities though, it means they can more easily get into flanking positions and more easily get into range to use charm. Anyways, it was just a thought, if you guys come up with anything good I’ll look into it.

    #233577

    Zaskow
    Member

    Giving them 32mp does buff their combat abilities though, it means they can more easily get into flanking positions

    For what? Attack of most bards isn’t very strong. However, users of dwarven bards would be happy.

    more easily get into range to use charm

    Getting into range to use charm isn’t problem. Real problem is surviving after using charm…

    #233579

    Garresh
    Member

    Getting into range to use charm isn’t problem. Real problem is surviving after using charm…

    This is actually correct. And I agree with this statement. This is supposed to be a balancing factor, but it may be worth revisiting. I’ll post with some ideas shortly…

    #233587

    Zaskow
    Member

    This is actually correct. And I agree with this statement. This is supposed to be a balancing factor, but it may be worth revisiting. I’ll post with some ideas shortly…

    Guard stance after using charm or making charm short range?

    #233595

    Garresh
    Member

    This is actually correct. And I agree with this statement. This is supposed to be a balancing factor, but it may be worth revisiting. I’ll post with some ideas shortly…

    Guard stance after using charm or making charm short range?

    I’ve been running tests in mod tools. Short range on charm would rapidly kick them up to borderline OP, so based on testing I’m thinking charm to short, -10 max hp, and fast healing on bards(to normalize across races some since bards almost always take damage)

    #233610

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Is this about Autocombat? Because in manual the main thing is preparing the control-attempts well to survive a failure.
    In manual the idea is more to cheaply get more units, not to go into riskier fights on the mere assumption that an early charmed unit will tilt the balance. A speed increase to 32 MP would be a massive advantage.
    In auto, though, you cannot influence the way the AI handles the Bards – maybe THAT is their problem?
    The problem that *I* have with Bards and Scoundrels is that essentially they are the same units when it comes to the way they fight, except that Scoundrels have Sprint and Bards are slow. Scoundrels are cheap, have a light one-shot attack, but can’t be pinned down, which means they are dangerous in situations when an enemy commits – they can sprint away, flank an attacker and break up formations. Bards are supposed to be a T2 Support. Their “support” is limited to their Bard skills (which I personally find quite useful, thinking of disliked terrain) – but that’s it. Plus, the only extra the unit gets on medals is an – admittedly original – +200 Morale.

    Conclusion: the unit misses a useful support ability on 2nd medal. One options would be (and isn’t it strange *I* would suggest that) Nourishing Meal – not that bad a choice for a Bard.

    I was thinking of a Satyr unit – which basically is a kind of bard -, and one ability I was considering, would be “Battle Hymn”. This would be an action with an aura effect like the Banshee, except that it would work on friendly units only and fortify them, giving them a buff – interesting would be Guard Stance for all units in range after their turns (so the Bards role would be to start the turn and doing something for defense, keeping herself back, making the rest more durable, allowing her NEXT turn to pick a Charm victim. Obvious Cooldown on ability, like, 2 turns.

    Another ability I was toying with was “Inflict Sleepiness”: this would be a Ranged Inflict ability – the unit hit by the bard’s ranged weapon would have to undergo a check, like 11 Res. If failed, the unit will simply be unable to attack next turn, NOT be in guard stance, but able to retaliate (Break Contol would dispel that). Otherwise the hit unit would be Shaken.

    So there ARE enough ways to give the Bard something useful to do without immediately checking whether she can charm or not…

    #233617

    esvath
    Member

    I find the idea of Battle Hymn for Bards is interesting and fitting their theme well.

    To make it more interesting, maybe a “basic” hymn, which all Bards have as starting skill and “advanced” hymn gained at a medal level, which differs according to the Bard’s race?

    #233620

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Well. It would be some kind of buff – which the Orcs already have: Batle Hymn looks like a mass version of War Cry.

    On the other hand it’s a Bard, not some kind of War Chief, so probably immunity against negative mind effects would be the most thematically fitting: No Fear, no panic, no Berserk and so on.
    The problem with THAT is, that it would be a fairly unspectacular thing for autocombat.

    A temporary Resistance gain would obviously be rather useful.

    I would also think, that a speed increase might be great: Bestow Athletics.

    It might also bestow Charge or something like “Assault”, giving only half the Charge bonus.

    It might also bestow Seeker (which would be interesting for accompanying Scoundrels.

    #233621

    Zaskow
    Member

    Short range on charm would rapidly kick them up to borderline OP

    I lol’d. Charm has too low strength to be OP of any kind. I don’t mention massed dispels and break control…

    #233622

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Well, Zaskow, the thing is, with Charm being a once-ability and the Bard being a Support unit, she needs something “Supportive” , so she has something to do beside Charm and an inferior ranged attack.

    #233623

    Zaskow
    Member

    Well, Zaskow, the thing is, with Charm being a once-ability and the Bard being a Support unit, she needs something “Supportive” , so she has something to do beside Charm and an inferior ranged attack.

    As I said. Bards need something supportive.

    #233625

    and one ability I was considering, would be “Battle Hymn”.

    There is a thread, buried somewhere here, that was all about Bards, and the idea of songs was proposed, a very long time ago, as was different songs for different Bards, so some would buff morale in combat (like war anthem) and some would buff units in a radius, some would debuff units in a radius (like Banshee’s wail in concept, but obviously the details would be different).

    The thinking behind it was Bards sing and tell stories ==> Bards Skills, actual songs.

    #233626

    Short range on charm would rapidly kick them up to borderline OP

    I lol’d. Charm has too low strength to be OP of any kind. I don’t mention massed dispels and break control…

    Unlike you, Garresh actually modded this in to test it. The results were…interesting.

    Ask him about them.

    Better yet, mod it in and test yourself, instead of your usual ….

    #233628

    Zaskow
    Member

    Unlike you, Garresh actually modded this in to test it. The results were…interesting.

    If you think that I didn’t tested for yourself changed Charm I’ll disappoint you.
    I tested it from side of autocombats exclusively. Results were pretty mediocre. However, bards showed bigger chances of survival than before, if you made charm ranged or put guard stance after using.

    #233634

    BTW, one thing that noone has mentioned yet:

    The changes to healing make creation sphere quite attractive now. 10 cp, heals 20 hp (or 25??) with no cooldown.

    Those who want to “exploit” stuff using healing still can, you just need to use what has upto now been an underused and slightly UP spec.

    I think that’s great, and it’s that kind of tradeoff that makes a game great.

    #233635

    Unlike you, Garresh actually modded this in to test it. The results were…interesting.

    If you think that I didn’t tested for yourself changed Charm I’ll disappoint you.
    I tested it from side of autocombats exclusively. Results were pretty mediocre. However, bards showed bigger chances of survival than before, if you made charm ranged or put guard stance after using.

    Pleased, actually, not disappointed.

    However, your results don’t chime with what Garresh told me.

    He said something along the lines of 16 extra units in 4 turns using auto, after putting charm on short range mode, and no other changes iirc..

    Don’t quote me, ask the man himself.

    Going off that though, that is incredibly powerful.

    I’d say you should post a video or screenshots. That is something called evidence, which is sorely lacking in most of your posts.

    #233640

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I don’t think it makes sense to have that unit be all about using a chance ability. The unit should have a use without that ability.

    “Song of…” would be good.

    While I’m GoG, I already started to use Creation – it heals 25, by the way.

    #233641

    Zaskow
    Member

    He said something along the lines of 16 extra units in 4 turns using auto, after putting charm on short range mode, and no other changes iirc..

    It depends from type of defenders. I previously tested on strong. If they’re normal, similar result is possible, I agreed with that.
    Tried myself on normal defenders:
    10 units:


    1 bard died from full stack:

    Now it’s visible result, at least bards will have role – neutral farming. However, against live players this tactics won’t work. I mean in manual combats against human charm isn’t very powerful
    I’m thinking on how nerf charm to make it not so spammable and leave it pretty useful and powerful.

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