Update 1.701+ Patch Notes – Updated 6/10/2015

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Update 1.701+ Patch Notes – Updated 6/10/2015

This topic contains 551 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  Garresh 6 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #233693

    Zaskow
    Member

    I never changed Repair Machine, it’s 15hp, no cooldown.

    I think possibility of abusing of Repair machine in PBEM isn’t good idea…

    You said it should be earlier, other people said it should be later/more expensive.

    I could agree with higher price, but not with later level.

    #233694

    madmac
    Member

    Proposed Changes – Updated

    Please tell me if you support or oppose the following, so I don’t put it in only to have to take it out again after complaints.

    Bards Charm becomes “Short Range” like convert. Bard loses 5hp to compensate or charm becomes 1 point weaker (strength 8) (optional) OR look into alternate ranged attackers for bards. In general this is likely to make Bards feel more like archers (unless you support JJ wanting elemental attacks)

    Hero Healing Theocrats get the healing ability (which has 2 turn cooldown) as an upgrade at level 7. This means you can get your heroes to be super healers, but not in the early game. Arch Druid could have the skill at 7 or 9 as well. Dreads can get repeating Repair Machine at level 9. Necromancers now have a lot of access to abilities which bring units back from the dead, that should be enough.

    So far Hero Healing proposal has met general approval, some say it shoudl be earlier, some later, so level 7 seems approx the right place.

    Bards are still up in the air, but if I was to do anything now, it would be the charm change, since it’s more in line with how the character currently works.

    1. Either the charm change or shortbows is fine, but buffing Charm is probably the more interesting path.

    2. I don’t think any change is needed but level 7 healing on Theocrat is fine, sure.

    #233695

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    I think possibility of abusing of Repair machine in PBEM isn’t good idea…

    Just briefly, why is this for Dreadnought and not for Theocrat?

    #233696

    Zaskow
    Member

    Just briefly, why is this for Dreadnought and not for Theocrat?

    Because no cooldown. Every type of healing has cooldown (non-beta), except this.
    9th level doesn’t change situation much. I suppose 9th level of hero is easy reachable on manual combats in PBEM.

    #233697

    Chimaira
    Member

    I must say I quite like the super healers proposal. 7th level takes a bit of work to get, while not being that far away. It also fits thematically – theocrat should be able to become more skillful healer than his supports 🙂
    Is the Dread going to get repair machine on top of emergency repair or instead of it?

    #233700

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Is the Dread going to get repair machine on top of emergency repair or instead of it?

    It would be on top of (if I do it). Currently, repair machine with 15hp/every turn is only available to builders.

    #233701

    quo
    Member

    Proposed Changes – Updated

    Please tell me if you support or oppose the following, so I don’t put it in only to have to take it out again after complaints.

    Bards Charm becomes “Short Range” like convert. Bard loses 5hp to compensate or charm becomes 1 point weaker (strength 8) (optional) OR look into alternate ranged attackers for bards. In general this is likely to make Bards feel more like archers (unless you support JJ wanting elemental attacks)

    Hero Healing Theocrats get the healing ability (which has 2 turn cooldown) as an upgrade at level 7. This means you can get your heroes to be super healers, but not in the early game. Arch Druid could have the skill at 7 or 9 as well. Dreads can get repeating Repair Machine at level 9. Necromancers now have a lot of access to abilities which bring units back from the dead, that should be enough.

    So far Hero Healing proposal has met general approval, some say it shoudl be earlier, some later, so level 7 seems approx the right place.

    Bards are still up in the air, but if I was to do anything now, it would be the charm change, since it’s more in line with how the character currently works.

    Thank you for asking for input on this Tombles.

    Background: I agree that the Bard is a weak unit. It stands in roughly the same tech position as Crusaders and Musketeers. It is one tech level beyond Apprentices and Reanimators. IMO it is a weaker unit than any of these.

    RE Proposed Solution: I think Charm having Short range would be an improvement. I’m not sure it would necessarily work out though. It would seem to double-down on the Conversion element of the game, which we just got done moving for Theocrats.

    Possible Alt Solution: I think I would prefer something like this:
    – Give Bards Taunt at Bronze Medal (they already get it from Dark Pact so the association is there)
    – Remove Taunt from Dark Pact, and give Bards Seduce instead. At this stage of the game, other T2 class units are maybe sort of viable (Crusaders, Apprentices and Reanimators at least), Bard is IMO way outclassed
    – Change Taunt so that it reduces “vision range” of the unit, like Blind does (it reduces the number of Hexes the unit can threaten). This creates synergy with Backstab, at a risk (since Taunt requires a short range).

    Also, I have experimented in my mods with removing the class building requirement for the Scoundrel and Bard unit, and been mostly pleased with the change. This allows Rogue players to start pumping out Scoundrels and/or Rogues right away when they conquer a city. To me, Scoundrels and Rogues are quite disorganized units, and don’t really need a regimented “class building” to show up. The building remains useful because it’s needed to build Assassins (a unit that does seem to require something a bit more formal).

    Thanks again for chatting about this, I look forward to your decision. 🙂

    #233705

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    You have no opinion on the hero heal thing Quo?

    And for taunt, I don’t want to change the ability, but if people turn around and say “Bards havign taunt is great!” then we’ll go for it, otherwise I don’t want to extend the scope of the proposal 🙂

    #233708

    quo
    Member

    You have no opinion on the hero heal thing Quo?

    Thanks for asking. Personally I am fine with the hero heal either way you go. To me, the hero issue has two different components:

    1. The abilities of the Hero when playing the actual class
    2. Hiring the hero across classes

    IMO on component 1 the Theocrat class itself is sort of balanced out by having the early Theocrat hero have abilities like Heal/Convert. If it loses this I do think the class will be hurt, but this class also gets Heals on its Supports later down the line. Same thing with Convert. In fact, both come from the same unit, the Evangelist (I would like to have a balance discussion about this unit one day if you are game, BTW, but I don’t want to get into it now and kick off pages of posts 🙂 .)

    Component 2 is trickier. The issue with Component 2 is that the Theocrat class is balanced around the leader getting great abilities, particularly early healing. But there is a 1/7 chance that someone playing a non-Theocrat rolls this hero type, and for most of those classes it’s by far the most desirable hero type precisely because it’s so good at healing, and they aren’t.

    What you could do, if you are inclined, is something like this:
    – Leave the Theocrat hero with Iron Will, as you have now
    – Change the Order of Healing skill so that it grants Heal to all Supports, and the Leader

    That would help stabilize Components 1 and 2.

    FYI, while I’m not suggesting you do this for the core game, the main Theo changes I play with in my own mods are:
    – Theo hero and all leaders get Mark Heretic from Turn 1
    – Order of Knights Templar also applies to Heroes and Pikemen
    – Mark Heretic is a free action
    – The Smite spell does a combo of Spirit/Fire/Shock damage and also marks heretics
    – The Wrath of God spell does a combo of Spirit/Fire/Shock and anyone hit with it is a Heretic for life. Also, this spell (eventually Lit Storm and Sunfire too once I get around to them) prevents Regen on Strat map for 2 turns

    I think some of what I just posted is OP for PVP matches. I do think it works well for the SP game tho, and the free action Mark Heretic has a big impact on how fights “feel” to me.

    #233710

    I am in favor of the seven and nine option (although I think it is optional on the AD).

    In any event, shaman should have nourishing meal as a gold reward.

    As for the bard, short range charm is good to go. You may also want to replace shaken with “hindered” as the secondary effect for charm fail.

    After all, charm is listening to a song, and even if you shake off the song, you should still have stood there for a time. Mechanically, it means that bard pairs can charm something, both fail, and not be immediately vulnerable to melee attacks.

    You might also want to replace the bard default light crossbow with a (non souped up) blow darts. It is kind of odd that the hero has a weapon that none of the class units have like it.

    #233711

    Zaskow
    Member

    And for taunt, I don’t want to change the ability, but if people turn around and say “Bards havign taunt is great!” then we’ll go for it, otherwise I don’t want to extend the scope of the proposal 🙂

    While Taunt on bards is good, I like more buffed charm and range attack.

    BTW, what do you think about Dark Pact? I think it’s too expensive currently. Maybe, drop price for it a bit (to 3000 RP at least)? Even ultimate spells cost less and come earlier.

    #233716

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    We actually deliberately made it so expensive, because we didn’t really want it to appear in multiplayer. MP people were saying that Rogue was fine, because you would use concealment and things like Incite Revolt to win, but single player people fighting against late game AI didn’t have enough raw power to win battles easily. Dark Pact was priced so that it would help single player people without disrupting Multiplayer Balance too much.

    #233718

    Gloweye
    Member

    Proposed Changes – Updated

    Please tell me if you support or oppose the following, so I don’t put it in only to have to take it out again after complaints.

    Bards Charm becomes “Short Range” like convert. Bard loses 5hp to compensate or charm becomes 1 point weaker (strength 8) (optional) OR look into alternate ranged attackers for bards. In general this is likely to make Bards feel more like archers (unless you support JJ wanting elemental attacks)

    Hero Healing Theocrats get the healing ability (which has 2 turn cooldown) as an upgrade at level 7. This means you can get your heroes to be super healers, but not in the early game. Arch Druid could have the skill at 7 or 9 as well. Dreads can get repeating Repair Machine at level 9. Necromancers now have a lot of access to abilities which bring units back from the dead, that should be enough.

    So far Hero Healing proposal has met general approval, some say it shoudl be earlier, some later, so level 7 seems approx the right place.

    Bards are still up in the air, but if I was to do anything now, it would be the charm change, since it’s more in line with how the character currently works.

    My opinion:

    Bards: Extend range and reduce HP by 10.

    Theocrat Hero Healing: Add Healing at some later level in addition to Iron Heart if possible. Give both a weak early healing(and buff, which is also theocrat-appropriate)

    #233720

    madmac
    Member

    Is the Dread going to get repair machine on top of emergency repair or instead of it?

    It would be on top of (if I do it). Currently, repair machine with 15hp/every turn is only available to builders.

    I would just leave it as is. Adding Repair Machine would give Dread leaders a combined 40 HP strategic heal which is a little OTP and they don’t need a spammable repair ability anyways.

    #233721

    Zaskow
    Member

    MP people were saying that Rogue was fine

    It’s very debatable statement.

    #233722

    Garresh
    Member

    I support the charm buff and hp nerf. Im for the healing buff on theo.

    As for mechanics, the reason for charm range buff over a better weapon is for 2 reason. 1. The AI in auto will often kill instead of charming with it at touch range. 2. Charm becomes more powerful vs players.

    I did not have BBBs stated conversion rate in auto. That was in manual, where a range change has no effect due to micromanagement. In auto it goes from crap conversion to okay conversion.

    If I can defend a charm change, buffing bards ranged attack will NOT help their convert rate in auto, and WILl be a buff in pbem manual, since they can kill more reliably when converts fail.

    Thats why I pushed for a charm change over a new ranged weapon. A ranged weapon is a big buff for pbem, but mediocre in mp. A charm buff is the opposite. Thats why I advocate for charm so strongly. Any other change leaves auto conversion crappy, and tbh if I wanted an archer support Id build racial. Giving them better range means they just become another racial support who can melee charm. Buffing charm range makes them reliable, distinct from racial supports, and DANGEROUS, without increasing damage output.

    A ranged attack would be nice, but conversion tactics would still suck outside of pbem. Double down on charm. Its what makes bards distinct!

    #233724

    players took AD heroes for healing mostly. On earlier levels AD heroes can’t provide any enough reason to recruit them.

    Sounds like playstyle. I like current Druids, and think nourishing meal is enough of a heal, and I like the party buffs Druids give.

    I like them more than before.

    As for Orcs, I am on the fence here. On the one hand, the changes make Orcs very straightforward to play, so working as intended, and good that they have some ral power behind them.

    On the opther hand, a case could be made for saying they are now too strong.

    The counter to that is that maybe it’s ok if they are “op” in one area because that resistance malus is going to hurt them every.single.time.

    I think +6 victory rush is too little, but the current (+12?) is maybe too much. Worth fine tuning to + 10 imho.

    Bear in mind now that when I play Orc, I adore having the Priests.

    #233725

    Zaskow
    Member

    Sounds like playstyle. I like current Druids, and think nourishing meal is enough of a heal, and I like the party buffs Druids give.

    Azzazir stated very clearly to what exploits once-per-battle healing leads in PvP…

    #233726

    Garresh
    Member

    Eh the healing rush is borderline OP but it works out because they still get stomped by elemental damage even when clearing. Given their other weaknesses, I think its fine.

    And druids are still fine without healing. They make for great archers.

    #233729

    Garresh
    Member

    I don’t like the idea to make CHARM better, not at all, because a SUPPORT unit’s only purpose shouldn’t be to try and convert a unit and then simply try to keep alive.

    #233731

    quo
    Member

    The thing that has always bothered me about Bards is that even when I capture one with a class that can buff Supports (Theocrat or Sorceror) they still aren’t very attractive units. Mainly this is because compared to the other units in the Support line they are pretty marginal. I capture them pretty regularly at present with Convert on my Theos, and even tho the Theocrat gives them Heal they end parked in a city as quasi defenders. Probably the weakest Support unit overall, really. Glad you are looking at them.

    #233733

    I think +6 victory rush is too little, but the current (+12?) is maybe too much. Worth fine tuning to + 10 imho.

    The buffs to Orc Priests were fairly substantial already as well. Getting bane fire makes them much stronger (3 channel damage, which makes them much more usable). I think break control should not be an innate skill. It would be better as a bronze medal ability.

    #233739

    I think either extra range or defense mode after using charm would be really good for the unit, also for the hero as well. I still think Bard is missing a buff ability (active) either with or without heal, maybe earned with medal. Because as it is right now bard is the least used class unit for me and bear in mind I’m a single player, that is where they should shine a bit more. Would Nourishing meal as a gold medal reward would be crazy here? I know I would love it.

    I like the ideia of one time small healing ability early on, and bigger healing later in game for Theo and Druids, that way the healing is going to scale better on the mid/late game for those classes. I’m not sure about dreadnoughts.

    I played a couple of Orcs games (druid, sorcerer and warlord) and the new victory rush was REALLY good, a bit too good. 10 as BBB proposed would be more realistic, but I don’t mind 12 as well, becase the -1 Res is still there, so Orcs need this kinda of thing. Btw, I’m finally happy to play non-theo Orcs now, just because of this buff and the priest buff, which is good, because they are one my favorite race.

    #233747

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Sounds like playstyle. I like current Druids, and think nourishing meal is enough of a heal, and I like the party buffs Druids give.

    Azzazir stated very clearly to what exploits once-per-battle healing leads in PvP…

    If somebody’s opponent is rolling around with a party of Heroes with lots of CP to spell spam, and they are not, couldn’t someone else conceivably have just as easily crafted on repeat some Heal/Heal Undead(Living/Undead armies) and Nourishing Meal items in the Forge? 2 turn production time without rushing in a decent city.
    If they can’t even do that by the same time, then I highly doubt the lack of Healing is the deciding factor in that given game.

    On a tangent, circumstantially, one might just not allow themselves to get into the situation of sitting behind walls being blasted by spells, if possible.

    —–

    As for the latest changes, since I’ve proposed making Charm Short Range in the past, albeit with compensatory nerfs, I certainly am in approval for that change.

    In regards to the Healing change, for Theocrats in particular… I suppose there is the argument that, as-is, they are worse healers than their generic Support units, or Evangelists.

    …of course, there is also the argument that they can Heal-spam just fine with either of those, without requiring the Leader to have it. Generally speaking, in the early game(i.e. before you have Evangelists or Order of Healing), battles mostly shouldn’t be lasting long enough for Heal to come off cool down, unless going for exploits. There are exceptions, but they are just that, more often than not.
    As such, in theory, unless going for exploits, the loss of cool down Heal for Theocrat Leaders should barely be noticeable. If anything, the 5 HP different on active and passive healing is more noticeable. Although, in-combat at least, the +1 Def/Res can easily make up for the 5 HP if used with a modicum of tactics.

    By the time mid/late-game is reached, they’ve got Supports and Evangelists for all their Heal-spamming desires in large battles and sieges.

    I don’t think more healing at a higher level is really necessary, but I also don’t think it would really affect/hurt that much either.

    Ambivalent about Archdruid getting further healing. What about simply lowering the cost of their party protection abilities by 1 instead of more Healing? Is there any way to make their oddly-expensive-considering-the-relative-usefulness party Volunteer ability actually apply to Summon upkeep as well?
    I’ll never stop supporting a high-level upgrade that grants 20% Fire/Frost/Shock(/Blight?/Spirit?) at a relative cost of 2 points for however many of those it ends up including. “Nature’s Ward” or something. Alas, with no new abilities coming in…. *shrug*

    Meh on Dreads. I never liked the idea of no-cooldown healing, but that’s my opinion.

    #233752

    Khelle
    Member

    I am little confused about dreadnoughts – so now there are two abilities – single-use Emergency Repair and old Repair Machine. Dread heroes and engineers get Emergency Repair, so who gets Repair Machine? Builders?

    #233754

    Garresh
    Member

    So if we want to buff the bards ranged, it would be kind of a lot of work since there are already several racial variants. What about giving bards increased crit damage at bronze like Killer Instinct?

    #233757

    quo
    Member

    So if we want to buff the bards ranged, it would be kind of a lot of work since there are already several racial variants. What about giving bards increased crit damage at bronze like Killer Instinct?

    Instead of giving them more damage, you could give them a nice proc. One of the inflicts perhaps.

    Inflict Daze seems particularly fitting. They only get one shot with a crossbow (most of them) so not a lot of die rolls using it.

    Another option would be to actually lower their damage but give them Seeker. Sort of huge issue with this unit as is is that its long range damage is terrible, which forces you close. But you don’t want to be close, because then the Bard is an easy kill and then the Charm effect goes away.

    #233758

    Zaskow
    Member

    So if we want to buff the bards ranged, it would be kind of a lot of work since there are already several racial variants.

    A lot of work? It could be done through mods in appr. 30 mins.

    I am little confused about dreadnoughts – so now there are two abilities – single-use Emergency Repair and old Repair Machine. Dread heroes and engineers get Emergency Repair, so who gets Repair Machine? Builders?

    Yep.

    Inflict Daze seems particularly fitting. They only get one shot with a crossbow (most of them) so not a lot of die rolls using it.

    Spirit ability inflicted by pure physical weapon?

    Another option would be to actually lower their damage but give them Seeker.

    Bards aren’t professional archers, except elvish maybe…

    #233759

    Garresh
    Member

    Oh. Oh. That’s a decent option as well. But it would have to be Dazzled. Daze is too strong, and Dazzle has natural rogue synergies…

    #233760

    Garresh
    Member

    @Zaskrow the changing of the abilities isn’t what I mean. I mean balancing it and making sure the races still feel distinct. While changing the numbers would take like 30 minutes, as you say, from a design perspective it would need several balance passes to get the numbers right. We need a quick fix that can be applied and let it be over with. Either inflict dazzled or increased crit damage.

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