Update 1.701+ Patch Notes – Updated 6/10/2015

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Update 1.701+ Patch Notes – Updated 6/10/2015

This topic contains 551 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  Garresh 5 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #231717

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Why the focus on Rogue, what about sorceror? They don’t really have much healing either.

    #231720

    Outis
    Member

    I understand the importance of toning down the exploits of PBEM and like the direction Triumph is going to deal with that. In addition, I personally want to scream “GET RID OF RAPIDS”. But I will settle for much less of them in the RMG. Right now they run the gamut of the map. Any chance of this being addressed?

    #231727

    Outis
    Member

    I know that the Twisted Vines bug was deemed to not be an easy fix and that Triumph was possibly coming up with different ideas for Twisted Vines as a workaround (I can’t find the post). Is this still something that will be addressed?

    #231730

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    You should also try the effect of Death March with a stack of Warbreeds – or better: NAGAS. If Regrowth is not enough, Slip Away is doing the rest.

    How is this news?

    You’re arguing to nerf the ability now based on being able to use the penultimate Warlord Unit or Naga with it.

    When you play MP you just don’t have the balls to do it, because you need time and a calm mind to act it out, and in Live MP it’s messy and stressful without a bunch of experience doing it – and I think Warlord isn’t that popular either.

    Wrong on all counts here.

    WL is quite popular now.
    I have used exactly this in MP. Infact I remember discussing the viability of Warbreeds versus Manticores precisely because of being able to do this.

    Look, dude, I find it a bit outrageous, that 18 month after vanilla release you tell me that part of the MP crowd NOW has checked what is OP with Death March and delighting in it – although you should have realized in beta already

    You also acknowledge that the stuff is op, because Manticore Riders should be MORE viable than Warbreeds, because if they are not – forget them. If a Flying powerhouse isn’t worth buildings you KNOW the balance is wrong. Think Thorougbreeds.

    But worst is. If you KNOW Nagas are shit OP with Warlord – Why the fuck didn’t you say so, when balance was discussed. ME, I was just trying to keep it as some kind of trumnp, playing – YOU, though… ah, come on!

    #231737

    How about I don’t think Nagas are OP with WL and I find your whining ridiculous?

    How about going back not even 2 months ago where Ex and I discussed on these very forums how useful Warbreeds versus Manticores could be, how quickly etc you could get Warbreeds out?

    How about not swearing like a little boy and having a normal discussion?

    You also acknowledge that the stuff is op, because Manticore Riders should be MORE viable than Warbreeds, because if they are not – forget them.

    I acknowledge no such thing.

    How about I like it that it’s not such a cut and dry choice between Warbreeds and Manticores, and that both have distinct uses and advantages?

    How about checking your facts and realising that Warbreeds didn’t have regrowth at vanilla (and were downright rubbish)?

    Are you saying the T4 should completely obsolete the preceding unit? Is that what you call balance?

    If so, I direct you to Shrines/Exalted, Juggernauts/Flametanks, Reapers/Deathbringers, Horned God/summon lottery.

    Not to mention Eldritch Horror and Node Serpents where the actual clear superiority of the former over the latter has caused so much to be written about how useless Node Serpents are.

    #231738

    And even the guy you quote as a reason to nerf death march himself said that he used it for his scouts mostly, and only later to hunt down a beaten Sorceror.

    #231744

    madmac
    Member

    Why the focus on Rogue, what about sorceror? They don’t really have much healing either.

    Sorcerer has surprisingly little issue with healing, actually. The Hero has a heal that works on summons, as do apprentices, and there’s a good chance any racial supports you’re bringing along are also packing heals.

    I’ve never played Sorcerer and felt like healing was an issue for me.

    #231756

    NINJEW
    Member

    Look, the reason why I’m (am I?) the only one pointing the finger is – I don’t shy away from losing half of my health, when the situation is right.

    oh yes i see i suppose you are indeed the one true enlightened player of AoW3 and that’s why you have the only correct opinion

    You should also try the effect of Death March with a stack of Warbreeds – or better: NAGAS. If Regrowth is not enough, Slip Away is doing the rest.

    Or isn’t that still not giving you the creeps, imagining that freight train coming over you?

    that is a lategame maneuver that requires a very substantial investment into fielding a homogeneous army. can’t say i’m quaking in my boots even slightly.

    When you play MP you just don’t have the balls to do it, because you need time and a calm mind to act it out, and in Live MP it’s messy and stressful without a bunch of experience doing it – and I think Warlord isn’t that popular either.

    warlord is one of the most popular classes for live MP, actually. i personally made a build exclusively designed to pump out tons of warbreeds as early as possible. i guess live MP players are just an inferior class of AoW3 players and if they truly had the sheer balls that the superior PBEM crowd had, maybe they’d be able to figure out how to use one of the warlord’s starting spells.

    i mean you say this like warlord isn’t the class most well suited to the cityspam strat, for one.

    Maybe, you should try to test all types of abuse of Necro Reanimate in full manual battles?

    i’ll ask my buddy madmac to go as bullshit with reanimation as he possibly can on me next time i play him. that doesn’t make “reanimate is OP” a self evident statement though.

    I suggested this to a bunch of people and people generally disliked it because they felt all the classes would end up feeling the same. That’s why I buffed the heal from Quick Dash a bit, so it would mean that Rogue at least had some type of heal access.

    what if rogue got something like stack-wide life stealing?

    You also acknowledge that the stuff is op, because Manticore Riders should be MORE viable than Warbreeds, because if they are not – forget them. If a Flying powerhouse isn’t worth buildings you KNOW the balance is wrong. Think Thorougbreeds.

    you say this like there wasn’t a massive argument over whether warbreeds are worthwhile at all when you could just go straight to manticores instead. pretty much the only point in warbreed’s favor that anyone brought up with any consistency was “use death march with them”

    #231773

    That’s a good idea ExNihil, I like it. I’ll add it to a list of tweaks to make on Monday.

    I see that there is agreement (I also suggested the idea in the closed beta). Problem solved. bruhahahaha.

    As for the Sorc, I think that sticking “magical origin” on all their summons would make their healing as good at it needs to be.

    As for the rogue, scoundrels already have fast healing, so I’m not seeing anything more necessary than an extra copy of fast healing for themselves.

    Or you could add fast healing stack to poison knowledge. So its like your body becomes tougher through exposure to minor poisons and such.

    #231783

    Zaskow
    Member

    Why the focus on Rogue, what about sorceror? They don’t really have much healing either.

    Sorc has:
    Mend magical being.
    Harmonizing Energy.

    Rogue has Quick Dash. It’s nothing even with buff.

    And yes. Plz, nerf to the death do something with Invigorate. In live MP it provides some OP-tactics, especially on massed supports.

    #231789

    ExNihil
    Member

    Why the focus on Rogue, what about sorceror? They don’t really have much healing either.

    Well, Sorcerer does need some Healing. In general I think its the most useless Hero type for me thus far – maybe others have better use for Sorcerers. Also I find sorcerer to be rather weak in PBEM in comparison to classes, maybe with this patch it will be different, who knows. Certainly a nerf to conversion is going to make a big difference here I’m sure.

    I linked before a small thread in which I suggested some improvements to mend magical being and harmonizing energy which I think will benefit all classes – through Sorcerer heroes, not Sorcerer as a class par se.

    I suggest you read that thread, its not very long at all, but I can summarize it here.

    I proposed that mend magical being be available sooner and will work on all units that will heal any unit that would have dropped CP from Essence Harvest. Thus Sorcerer heroes, ghouled apprentices, seduced apprentices etc. are going to be able to mend your undead creatures or shadow stalkers and the like. This will be a much more useful ability. It could be made into an *1 per battle ability in this instance, there is no problem here IMO – apprentices are common map creatures and this would be a way to ensure heal is not amassed in this way. Sorcerer definitely can deal with this, given that Harmonizing Energy itself receives some affection in the next section below.

    I further suggest that Harmonizing Energy become over all more effective both research and casting wise, which will buff Sorcerer (compensating for the nerf above) and buff Sorc. Heroes as casters.

    #231790

    ExNihil
    Member

    And yes. Plz, nerf to the death do something with Invigorate. In live MP it provides some OP-tactics, especially on massed supports.

    Yes, Invigorate is the most OP element in live MP – if the game gets to that stage, it is just ridiculous.

    #231797

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ NINJEW & BBB

    1) Nagas are not Late Game; they can be anything. If you can get any, you should be clear by Midgame for sending out s tack of Slihers.

    2) Between the lines I reed that DM is deemed the trick in the bag to make Warbreeds worth the while. You could just as well argue for Rain pf Death spell that would simply halve everyone’s HPs – a little something to let Regrowth shine. These spells tend to be very high level, though.
    I mean, take Creation, Death March Warbreeds, spam Sunbursts on targets, if necessary. You don’t need to be a genius to start with that stuff – which doesn’t change anything about the fact that

    the additional movement is simply too much for a spell of that order.

    #231802

    Taykor
    Member

    It could be made into an *1 per battle ability in this instance, there is no problem here IMO

    It is once per battle ability even now. And at 15 hp.

    Sorc has:
    Mend magical being.
    Harmonizing Energy.

    Rogue has Quick Dash. It’s nothing even with buff.

    I agree that Rogue have less. But MMB doesn’t work on racial and class units (and not even on all summons), it doesn’t work on sorc itself and heroes. You (all of you, not only Zaskow) must not ignore that, sorc does need racial and class units. And HE is very expensive and it demands precious CP. I can’t use it in early game (well, like most combat spells). Meanwhile healing abilities are free.

    #231808

    Hatmage
    Member

    I have two suggestions, onre regarding healing and theocrats/necromancers, the other being a hopefully useful death march compromise:

    1) Divide healing into a once-per-battle healing ability, available to theocrats and druids (druids should definitely not have a bigger, healier heal than theocrats, and I’m not super thrilled they get regrowth either), and a “close wounds” or “bless wounds” ability available to theocrats and theo supports that provides a smaller, on cooldown heal, but can only target units below half health – negating the worst “use those webbed archons as an operating table” PBEM abuses, but still giving theocrats solid healing in tactical combat.

    Something similar could be done for necromancers, but something like gaining extra HP above and beyond lifestealling for actual killing blows on living foes is more thematic, and can still only be used 6 times per site.

    2) I like that regeneration works well with death march, but if death march temporarily removed on cooldown and one-per-fight abilities like phase, healing etc. it could only be used freely with stacks made solely of regenerators, as healers wouldn’t restore any HP in turns it was cast. Thus, we preserve synergy with extremely tough troops, but avoid an athematic synergy with anybody who knows a priest. We also create some interesting and unique drawbacks for certain troops who depend on cooldown powers in combat.

    Thoughts?

    [Edited for spelling]

    #231813

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well about Mend magical being:

    I think Sorcerer should be able to heal all of its summons so this includes WYVERNS, so this means monster units as well. So this benefits WL, AD etc. I think this should be available earlier since this is a rather crappy ability TBH.

    And here is my original post from that thread:

    I think mend magical creature should work on undead units or at least incorporeal units (including the relevant undead creatures). This will help Necro by adding another hero type that can boost its sustain and creeping, and it will help other classes and Sorcerer as well when synergizing with undead creatures – either through control undead/ghouling from Necro heros, or through archon dwellings.

    Why it makes thematic sense? Well if essence harvest drops CP from Undead creatures they are in a way magical creatures, and the incorporeal ones are basically magical – phantasmagoric – creatures. So thematically it works or can work as well

    ——–

    As for harmonizing energy – its a spell available on sorcerer heroes for non-sorcerer players and it should be improved for these as well as for sorcerer players since it doesn’t do enough currently. Not necessarily the healing element itself as what you get for the cp or as a reduction of price, at the moment you need to invest to much cp for the heal, its simply too expensive. either a secondary effect or a price reduction.

    #231814

    ExNihil
    Member

    As for the Sorc, I think that sticking “magical origin” on all their summons would make their healing as good at it needs to be.

    HA +1

    Yes!

    #231818

    +2 and counting.

    I also like the suggestions made by Hatmage, especially #1) although such a new ability will require additional translations…

    While I do like the changes in the latest patch mechanically, I think Healing was very fitting for the Druid and Theocrat thematically – if only for the ability icon with the green hand, especially when compared with Heal Undead’s purple one.

    #231821

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Was reading what you guys said on Mend Magic Being, and I was all like “This seems familiar”, so I had a look, and according to the resource the ability already heals all summoned units, including banshees, lost souls, wyverns, dire penguins, wargs/boars/spiders summoned by the Arch Druid, and everything summoned directly into tactical combat (ancestral spirit, etc). It actually checks if the unit has been summoned, not the unit itself, so a wyvern you get from a dragon dwelling will not be healed. We changed it a while ago, but it looks like we never updated the description of the ability.

    The ability is currently unlocked at level 5, for 3 points, which does seem reasonable to me, as well. So, a lot of the requested changes have been in the game for months. How many of you think it should also affect the undead? I personally am in favour, since it would mean Necros get more chance at getting something useful when rolling for a new hero to turn up.

    #231854

    I haven’t played Necromancer enough / with the current patch to say if Mend Magical Being would be required for this class, but I think it’s much is better suited for purely magical units. Just compare the similar looking ICONS of Heal, Heal Undead and Mend Magical Being: To me these clearly signify the “school” they belong to by their background colour (and I for one, think such things also matter – a game should provide good visual information, it’s part of the interface).

    That said I think I may have come to this wrong idea about it ’cause I find the ability a little (too) weak in practice. Now, if a Sorc hero could somehow become a “Magical Being” per (high-level) hero trait… this would be an nice buff to MMB because it would increase its usability / later in game.

    [Edit: strikethrough. It’s not about the Necro class, but the undead units MMB wold apply to – I get that 🙂 ]

    #231858

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, if you can push it to level 4 at 4 points from level 5 at 3 it would be great, level 5 is a bit far up the ladder and you need to save your points at this stage – you gotta conserve for stun, floating etc….

    This would make it a more useful hero type all over for all classes, and will make sorcerer more useful for creeping in general.

    ———–

    As I said it would really solve the problem with Archon dwellings for most classes using sorcerer heroes this way and converted apprentices, and you don’t need to go through the undead label you can use the Archon and incorporeal labels so you can avoid the ghoul label.

    #231859

    ExNihil
    Member

    I haven’t played Necromancer enough / with the current patch to say if Mend Magical Being would be required for this class, but I think it’s much is better suited for purely magical units. Just compare the similar looking ICONS of Heal, Heal Undead and Mend Magical Being: To me these clearly signify the “school” they belong to by their background colour (and I for one, think such things also matter – a game should provide good visual information, it’s part of the interface).

    this logic should preclude nourishing meal.

    Archons are gray, and Incorporael units are Gray as well. So they are in-between in your logic. point being?

    Doesn’t really matter, If the Sorcerer/apprentice can channel mana into necromatic energy somehow it can heal an undead creature, same way a brew-brother can do it using magical-broth apparently. Balance-wise it will just make Sorcerer heroes, which are darn near useless at the moment a bit more useful.

    #231865

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    I can only really put Hero Upgrades on levels 3 and 5 right now.

    #231874

    I’m saying these abilities were not intended to overlap.

    When the Necromancer was added (and Archons already existed in-game) they clearly chose purple as theme colour for its skills – as much as light blue was chosen for the Sorcerer before.

    Second reason: I also would like a small buff to Sorcerer, but rather one not that will mainly be a benefit to the Necromancer – it should benefit the Sorcerer per se, imo.

    #231877

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, So how about Mend Magical Being at level 3 for 4 points then?

    As for colors, I am a bit color blind to be absolutely fair, so I can’t really comment. But it seems a bit silly no offense – as long as nourishing meal works on undead, and if the point is to make Sorcerer heroes more useful, then this should work on undead creatures as well. If you will look in the thread I linked there you will see something like 5 or 6 ppl who +1 that Idea.

    #231879

    I guess I’m colour sensitive or something, to be honest. Seriously.

    I’m not in favour of Nourishing Meal working on Undead, either.

    And Heal should only affect living beings, not summoned ones also. We have Mend Magical Being for those.

    #231883

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Second reason: I also would like a small buff to Sorcerer, but rather one not that will mainly be a benefit to the Necromancer – it should benefit the Sorcerer per se, imo.

    If I was to buff the Sorceror, I would reduce the cost of it’s casting point upgrades a little, perhaps the first 2 by 1 point each. If I did that, then that would be it though, Mend Magical Being would stay where it was. I’m certainly not going to buff the Sorceror class.

    #231884

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    I’m not in favour of Nourishing Meal working on Undead, either.

    Without it, Halfing Necro has -1 defense on ghouls + 20% racial physical weakness + no way of getting extra morale into the mid game + literally useless support units. I tried it before we released Eternal Lords, it was a nightmare to play.

    Note also, that:

    1) Most undead eat (see devour corpse)
    2) It doesn’t work on Incorporeal units

    #231886

    The ability is currently unlocked at level 5, for 3 points, which does seem reasonable to me, as well. So, a lot of the requested changes have been in the game for months. How many of you think it should also affect the undead? I personally am in favour, since it would mean Necros get more chance at getting something useful when rolling for a new hero to turn up.

    Yeah, why not. Undead are magical, it fixes magical stuff, so that is good. Also, it is hard to remember something has been changed if the description says otherwise (learned helplessness).

    As for the rogue, I’m in favor of a down and dirty quick dash ability cloned from the spell at an appropriate level. touch ability, once per battle, five points, does exactly the same thing.

    #231907

    @ NINJEW & BBB

    1) Nagas are not Late Game; they can be anything. If you can get any, you should be clear by Midgame for sending out s tack of Slihers.

    So too is Drac RG giving regrowing Chargers.

    That is also OP then by your logic.

    2) Between the lines I reed that DM is deemed the trick in the bag to make Warbreeds worth the while.

    No.

    Regrowth is what made Warbreeds worthwhile. DM is just the icing on the cake. By the time you have a stack of 6 Warbreeds and you can DM, you are solidly mid game +, edging into late game territory imho, assuming you tech rushed, or definitely late game if you didn’t tech rush.

    Warbreeds are useful because of regrowth, which is still a rare ability.

    Deathmarching stacks of them is something of a showboat manoeuvre – if you can do it you’ve probably already won (or you’re facing the AI with it’s never ending armies).

    Simply put, DM+ Warbreeds comes out late enough that a Sorceror, for example, will have all sorts of nasty stuff ready for you.

    Not remotedly OP imho.

    Also, Naga aren’t exactly OP either. Slithers in the right place, right time will be useful, but by your own admission stacks of those are mid + game, so can be prepared for.

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