Update 1.701+ Patch Notes – Updated 6/10/2015

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Update 1.701+ Patch Notes – Updated 6/10/2015

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  • #231946

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ Tombles

    Sorcerer IS a pretty good Hero for Necro.

    @ BBB

    We discuss beside the point. The point is that the movement gain is too big. The idea is to offset the gain with a severe loss, but there are too many situations possible when that fails – it fails already when a site is in range that heals. There are enough units and abilities that make it ok – but if your line of argumentation is that in late mid and late game these things are ok, then it’s simply a mid to late game spell – and that it is.

    So it’s fairly simple, actually – either the spell is too cheap, bost in cost and research, or it is too impactful with the half/double thing. For the cost of the spell it should be +50% -25% OR another penalty (like Exhausted Fatigue).

    You may not see it that way, but everything you say fits in one of those categories.

    #231951

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    @ Tombles

    Sorcerer IS a pretty good Hero for Necro.

    My general feeling about Sorc heroes is that they’re all about spell casting. I don’t mind if they have weak healing, or there stack leader abilities aren’t super (though I personally always like having charged army), because their main thing is throw spells at things. Star Blades, Harmonizing Energy and whatever the forcefield spell is called are all solid tactical combat spells, much better than most of the other starter spells other heroes get. That’s why I’d rather focus on moving it more in that direction if he needs to be buffed, though I’m not really convinced that he does.

    Edit: Ok, maybe Harmonizing Energy isn’t a top tier spell.

    #231958

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    ´Harmonizing Energy is great, as long as Harbingers of Death Tech isn’t researched. Charged Army and Magic Affinity are good when leading unndead stacks. Spirit Shield at level 3 is top. Mend Magical Being will heal the inevitable Banshees. And then it’s about gaining casting points and spells mostly. Shock stuff is pretty effective against a lot of things. Mass Stasis is fine, for example.

    I have to admit, that it took some time until I fully realized that heroes can do so much more than serving a class – that you have to use the strengths of their own class for you. (I thinbk, that is a very complex aspect of the game, just look at the healing thing.) In any case it’s fun.

    #231960

    We discuss beside the point.

    Err…you brought up Naga and Warbreed =-> OP, so how is that besides the point, unless you are besides the point?

    The point is that the movement gain is too big.

    In.

    YOUR.

    Opinion.

    I think it is fine.

    The idea is to offset the gain with a severe loss,

    I think losing 50% HP is enough of a deterrence and a loss as it is. Units in fights hit hard so -50% hp often means losing more than half your effective rounds.

    but there are too many situations possible when that fails – it fails already when a site is in range that heals

    You mean a Shrine of Healing? You’re seriously going to try and argue a spell should be nerfed because a Shrine is available? And they are all incredibly powerful

    There are enough units and abilities that make it ok – but if your line of argumentation is that in late mid and late game these things are ok, then it’s simply a mid to late game spell – and that it is.

    Please stick to what i write, not fanciful interprations and conclusions whihc you then waste time trying to rebut.

    I said Warbreeds + DM is late mid to late game usually, ergo what you said “Warbreeds + DM is OP” (to support your argument that DM needs to be nerfed) is not true, i.e. they aren’t OP.

    Ditto Naga.

    Deathmarch is, for me, a spell that is potentially useful at all stages of the game.

    Much like Spirit Seeker said he did, I would use DM to get better scouting (knowledge is power) and pray the opponent doesn’t kill all my Scouts (loss of intelligence plus empire unhappiness) and only rarely would I use it on an actual battle stack, unless I was chasing down the enemy (which means I’m mopping up and have already won), or trying to run away (in which case I am risking alot because if caught, I am at least 50% quicker to kill).

    The only time I would use it on a stack that I would then fight with is if I was city sniping/chasing down the enemy.

    OR, hypothetically, if I could use it to bring an extra half health stack against an opponent as the coup de grace. Even then, start of the fight, opponent can close the distance quickly enough to decimate the half health stack.

    Basically, you think this spell is always useful and the presence of Naga/WB makes it OP.

    I think that, outside of scouting, it’s a bit of a noob trap.

    These much vaunted healing sites you mention are few and far between, and if you are fighting you are going to be hurt.

    Exception is abusing heal mechanics, only possible in pbem/sp, and only a problem in pbem, which Tombles is trying to end here.

    That is why I was in favour of healing being once per battle (I also advocated that Theocrats get a stronger heal to compensate) because now I think the emphasis will move away from heroes abusing heal in pbem to races with healing Priests, e.g. Humans, Draconians and Dwarves.

    It also means Order of Healing is relatively more useful now.

    TL;DR- death march is not the problem.

    #231961

    These much vaunted healing sites you mention are few and far between, and if you are fighting you are going to be hurt.

    And if a player is savvy enough to plot out a path that allows him to use haste berries and then a heal site plus death march, then fair play to him as far as I’m concerned.

    OPr shall we nerf haste berries too now? They give you all your mp back with no downside.

    #231962

    ExNihil
    Member

    Edit: Ok, maybe Harmonizing Energy isn’t a top tier spell.

    Harmonizing Energy is a bad joke usually and is one of the true vanilla relics. As I said, improve it somehow, either better CP/Heal ratio, or secondary effect (example being regrowth or some kind of secondary heal effect, some elemental resistances or maybe nourishing meal? Or even just a serious morale increase, i.e. HARMONY in a very crude sense).

    #231963

    Shakey
    Member

    As I said, improve it somehow

    I vote add Solace (unit’s morale can’t go negative for rest of battle).

    #231964

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Meh, I can make heal undead if you like. No reason that it shouldn’t imho, otherwise I don’t really think it needs anything else.

    #231980

    Ore
    Member

    These changes make a lot of sense.. thanks!

    #231992

    Sharpnessism
    Member

    Death March is just about fine IMO. The only potential nerf should be increasing its CP/Mana usage by 10 (before having scouts WL needed it badly to scout). No need to nerf any other aspects about it. With the current heal spell removals it is probably fine though.

    Harmonizing energy healing Undead would make it more interesting to use, I agree that it doesn’t need any real changes.

    #232005

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ BBB

    I think you are massively downplaying/underrating the strategic advantage of superior mobility. In every discussion that involves strength and tactics comparisons, mobility is always an issue; 3 or 4 MPs per hex, floating, flying, 28 or 26 MPs, Mountaineering, Wetland Walking … it’s generally considered important, and rightfully so. (Not to mention that this has been of utmost importance in history as well – some of the most famous military actions in history depend on superior mobility, force marching feats or just high speed of tanks.)

    Death March is an unexpensive spell that allows a doubling of movement rate. The price in terms of Health is irrelevant, because potentially EVERY stack’s MPs can be doubled, and when midgame is reached CPs will allow multi-casting as well, in bigger style. This means, there are more targets in range, and on smaller maps there is a certain closeness anyway, making things a lot more difficult to defend properly. A simple stack of Monster Hunters of an Explorer Warlord may be enough to create a lot of turmoil – 80 MPs are pretty good and allow coverage of a lot of hexes.

    What COULD balance this, was the element of Mana cost per unit involved. This would CERTAINLY be a lot more balanced if there was a mana cost per unit, say 10 for each unit involved. This would make Scouting cheaper (good), but military use a lot more expensive (also good) – still, death marching a stack of Nagas or Warbreeds for 60 Mana would be possible, but become a costly affair, and mass moving of stacks via DM would become possible only in the endgame.

    As it is, though, your points are not convincing, because you actually have none, except that you maintain, no, it’s fine. It’s not fine, on the contrary.

    It’s also pretty ironic you would quote Spirit Seeker – what he said is, that it’s not a no-brainer to use because it’s important to first scout out things correctly, so that you can take advantage of your mobility (in other words, if you grope around blindly, you will be likely to waste your additional movement, but if you know where is what – great).
    And that brings up the next advantage – you don’t to commit yourself. You can move everything as far as you want, carefully, you can then, if necessary scout (with or without extended Death March Range), and depending on what you find you can act accordingly. Think Druid or Sorc: (or even Necro) with them you can always Summon something somewhere along the movement of a 3-stack main battle formation – imagine you could react on the information gained and double your movement.

    Which is exactly what the Warlord can do.

    #232021

    ExNihil
    Member

    I think Death March shouldn’t be available as a starting skill for WL, that will sole 90% of the problem kn itself cause you’ll have to research it.

    Then if its casting cost is increased to 30CP or reasearch cost is icreased to 200 it will be probably ok. Sure its very powerful, but there are a lot of powerful things in the fame, this is aparticular pbem constellation. No need to do anything else.

    #232028

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    No, it’s not pbem specific.

    It’s a unique advanture spell without counter. You can use it to run into safety, you can use it to catch up with someone running away, it gives you additional STRATEGIC options (on the advanture map), potentially doubling the range of important stacks, and more than one stack.

    The problem is that it can be used for totally different things without price difference. It IS a good way to boost Scout’s movement initially; for this purpose the spell is a very crude club: a Warlord’s early scout will with all probability be an The Irregular or the Scout; halfing Health is a meaningless penalty because such a scout is dead meat anyway facing a more serious threat, and a Scout war is not easy to win anyway, depending on the opponent. The 20 CP cost look simply too high for THAT purpose, especially with the penalty incurred. 30 CP would make the cost ridiculously high (for that purpose).

    Moving one or more stacks double time, on the other hand, is something entirely different; provided you have the necessary intelligence the strategic advantage is stunning.

    So the more I think about it, looking at the strategic value, the spell could indeed be balanced in making the cost dependent on how many units you move. This would balance things fine, for obvious reasons, but the problem I see is, that I don’t think the game offers the mechanics for such a mechanism.

    So if that was impossible, you might argue that Warlord got a dedicated Scout unit and doesn’t need an early acceleration spell – in that case I’d say that the spell would be better off being a T5 costing 50 Mana to cast.

    #232038

    ExNihil
    Member

    With hasty plunder at 2 turns now, its no longer a problem in MP really.

    Death March isn’t particularly Dangerous in MP as far as I know, although I might be mistaken here – been a while since I played seriously (Shifted to PBEM awhile back).

    As I already wrote, make it impossible to get as a starting skill and it will resolve most of the issues IMO. It should most defintely NOT be a t5 spell. I think you are a HUGELY exaggerating how powerful this spell is JJ. Sure, its a very strong tech, sure its stronger then most t2 spells for what it gives, but not all of em (compare mark of the heretic for example), it could very well be a t3 rather than a t2 or it could be a more expensive t2, but thats about it.

    WL already has a very expensive tech tree, it shouldn’t be nerfed. It doesn’t have in class healing, all it has is field medic, and it has crappy scouts. Sure it has this IMBA spell, but if it doesn’t have it as a starting spell, problem is solved.

    And Spirit Seeker seems to be a really really good player. Sorry, balancing the game around the talents of top players who make very good use of IMBA abilities is a bad idea. Lots of IMBA stuff in the game, and some of it should actually be a part of it. You got stomped, and your vision is a bit doubled ATM. Happens to everybody – welcome to the competitive club.

    Now for the really IMBA shit: INVIGORATE!!!!! Please @tombles, make sure Invigorate itself doesn’t come off Cooldown when you Invigorate a unit that has Invigorate and already Inigorated a unit, this is just ridiculous…. It should be a one-use ability!!!!!! Also, if you could limit it to being something like quick-dash? Not all action points but only one action point and some HP or maybe 2 action points or something? This is just ridiculous in PvP…… Compare this with Meteoric Armor, I mean, this is a joke.

    #232044

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Now for the really IMBA shit: INVIGORATE!!!!! Please @tombles, make sure Invigorate itself doesn’t come off Cooldown when you Invigorate a unit that has Invigorate and already Inigorated a unit, this is just ridiculous…. It should be a one-use ability!!!!!! Also, if you could limit it to being something like quick-dash? Not all action points but only one action point and some HP or maybe 2 action points or something? This is just ridiculous in PvP…… Compare this with Meteoric Armor, I mean, this is a joke.

    Oh, that’s what you mean. I didn’t realise it did that… For some reason I thought you were talking about the Archdruid Spell. I’ll look into it!

    #232046

    ExNihil
    Member

    Yhea, I mean the Tigran RG upgrade, not the AD spell. And it is HUGELY OP!

    Also Werebears, as @abednegojc, who any MP player will tell you is a very good MP player who is notorious for exploiting IMBA shit thinks as well. Problem with this unit is what it gives you for the amount you invest in it. But I am shooting myself in the foot here, since I am building this unit in 3 PBEM games now…. But anyhow, Basically, you get two t3 units in the same army unit slot, this is IMBA stuff that no other class really gets and no other race gets.

    #232055

    As it is, though, your points are not convincing, because you actually have none, except that you maintain, no, it’s fine. It’s not fine, on the contrary.

    And you are doing exactly this.

    You’re maintaining the penalty is not enough, because you got beat.

    I’m maintaining the penalty is fine, because you’re not likely to be in any condition to fight after using it, so it’s most useful for Scouts and ninja attacks, which doesn’t make it OP in my book.

    Have you used it much? Has it won any games for you? I’ve used it loads and it hasn’t.

    It’s helped but loads of things ‘help’.

    And actually, I’m well aware of the value of movement. In fact I actually explained in depth how death march is used by me to extend Scout movement, or to hunt down islooated troops, or to run away.

    My point is that none of those make the game OP.

    It is rare/mid to late game (Nagas, healing shrines, Regrowing Chargers) that you can use it to both march and fight.

    In my view, you sacrifice any meaningful combat ability to get more mp.

    And in early game you are going to maybe, if you are lucky, use it on one stack/turn, unless you invest in casting points, and a Warlord investing in CP is not researching the things he really needs.

    I had a game this morning where I was Human Warlord. Upto turn 20 and I still hadn’t researched this.

    Why?

    Well the land was crawling with independents so my Scouts were dying anyway, and I was using my cities to get a tech and economy lead (I was crowding my cities to take advantage of war effort).

    I was planning to mass Mounted Archers.

    Every turn of research was precious and needed there. I had 3 full stacks, 2 together and one away.

    And no ready healing. I went on the attack and no way would I have used death march on a fighting stack.

    Moving one or more stacks double time, on the other hand, is something entirely different; provided you have the necessary intelligence the strategic advantage is stunning.

    and?

    There are many abilities that are “stunning.” Hell, as a Druid or Sorc, you can just walk in a line and constantly summon and,

    provided you have the necessary intelligence

    you can really mess up someone’s day.

    Hell, in the aforementioned game, if I’d been Sorceror I would have been attacking 5 turns earlier with more troops that could float over the guys walls and stun his defenders. As it was I was on turn 20 odd with ground troops that I had to detour into seafaring so they could cross rivers.

    I had wild magic with 50 cp. He had 4 Frost witches (the t2 unit) and I had 2 berserkers and a Cavalry, and 2 heroes (Theo and Sorceror), with cp 30 each, plus my Leader.

    The plan was to swap locations three times (sacrificing the Berserkers and Cavalry no doubt) and then use the 2 heros to cast smite and magic fist until everything was dead.

    It was high risk, high reward (for a Metropolis, or a city at least iirc).

    Now, the bit about intelligence – I would have found that city sooner using Wisps rather than Scouts, and I would have been able to attack it sooner, with more troops.

    That is “stunning”. All you need to know is the rough location of the city, start walking there and summon every turn or other turn.

    Death marching scouts would not have helped here either.

    Death marching my main stacks would have been suicide.

    #232056

    @ Ex, I’m not sure how locking it out as a starting spell would address the issues JJ seems to think it has.

    If a player is dead set on getting it, they can just burn mana to put it in the spell book.

    #232059

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well,

    Seek Knowledge doesn’t work so well in my experience to be honest. But be that as it may.

    If the point is Death March is OP because it allows for crazy ass maneuvering in early game PBEM then locking it out from the starting skill will definitely solve all problems immediately since you will need to tech it up, and that cannot be done without some turns passing by at least.

    If the problem is XP farming using death march that will also solve it since for the first 10 or so turn you will not be able to get it, unless you were really going to try and play for this or were very lucky, which is OK.This is the game. It has some luck elements and that is fine. And planning is fine.

    So I think the first 10 turns is basically what we are talking about – it is iirc a 140 RP tech, so if it is unavailble as a starting tech and you need to research it, you will probably not have it until at least turn 10 (usually), unless you are very lucky, or plan ahead, or do something remarkable etc…. and plan around this, and that is OK, and in that case you still need to be able to capitalize on this, and I really doubt this could be a HUGE game changer that is IMBA. So I see no problem.

    So, in my opinion this is a real solution, simply removing this from the starting spell book solves everything for PBEM. As for other game types, well SP players have their Fun, and I don’t see them complaining about this, and I never saw WL players using Death March to great effect in MP cause in Autocombat it will be catastrophic and unless you use hasty plunder and your opponent has very low garrisons this is problematic (warbreeds do come in handy here, but that is that). Sure, its very useful – to scout, and run away, but no-one is going for a capital battle with this, unless he is an idiot or can regenerate his health first somehow.

    #232066

    Zaskow
    Member

    Also Werebears, as @abednegojc, who any MP player will tell you is a very good MP player who is notorious for exploiting IMBA shit thinks as well. Problem with this unit is what it gives you for the amount you invest in it. But I am shooting myself in the foot here, since I am building this unit in 3 PBEM games now…. But anyhow, Basically, you get two t3 units in the same army unit slot, this is IMBA stuff that no other class really gets and no other race gets.

    OMG, just nerf Dire Bears a bit and give Were Bear to ALL shamans with increased price. Problem solved.

    #232067

    ExNihil
    Member

    Sure, I have no problem with this solution

    #232068

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    As it is, though, your points are not convincing, because you actually have none, except that you maintain, no, it’s fine. It’s not fine, on the contrary.

    And you are doing exactly this.

    You’re maintaining the penalty is not enough, because you got beat.

    I’m maintaining the penalty is fine, because you’re not likely to be in any condition to fight after using it, so it’s most useful for Scouts and ninja attacks, which doesn’t make it OP in my book.

    That i just not true.

    I’m “maintaining” that the gain is too big. Double adventure movement for one full stack WHEN AND WHERE YOU WANT IT (which is something totally different than Haste Berries), Health penalty or not. And the more CPs you have, the more stacks you can move that way, and the more stacks you can move that way, the bigger is the threat and the more irrelevant the incurred HP loss becomes.

    #232069

    Also Werebears, as @abednegojc, who any MP player will tell you is a very good MP player who is notorious for exploiting IMBA shit thinks as well. Problem with this unit is what it gives you for the amount you invest in it. But I am shooting myself in the foot here, since I am building this unit in 3 PBEM games now…. But anyhow, Basically, you get two t3 units in the same army unit slot, this is IMBA stuff that no other class really gets and no other race gets.

    OMG, just nerf Dire Bears a bit and give Were Bear to ALL shamans with increased price. Problem solved.

    It would be fun if all shaman got ‘transform’ ability. To make more fun it would be cool if some transformed into a bear others into some other units
    Like:
    – Tigran: “King” Tiger/Lion (t3 stats);
    – Frostling: Polar Bear;
    – Dwarf: “King” Boar;
    – Goblin: “King” Warg;
    – Human: Bear;
    – Elf: “King” Gryphon*;
    – Draconian: No ideia hehe;
    – Orc: One of the Spider probably;
    – Halfling: “King” Eagle*;
    * Those that receive flying unit, get worst stats in exchange. All the others got more or less same stats as the base Bear, with some slight ability changes. But I think this is something for mod, right?

    #232077

    Zaskow
    Member

    It would be fun if all shaman got ‘transform’ ability. To make more fun it would be cool if some transformed into a bear others into some other units

    Well, I plan to implement something similar in my balance mod.

    – Draconian: No ideia hehe;

    King (Elder???) Wyvern, obviously.

    Orc: One of the Spider probably;

    Nightmare is better. Look at orcish mounts.

    #232083

    esvath
    Member

    It would be fun if all shaman got ‘transform’ ability. To make more fun it would be cool if some transformed into a bear others into some other units.

    +1. Druids should have affinity to the nature, so why not?

    #232111

    Sir Toine
    Member

    that’s an excellent idea, i love it. shapeshifting is a classic for any druid-like units, would fit perfectly and make other races other than elves or tigrans more interesting to play with ad. very exciting.
    also did i have to read 3 pages of ranting about a certain spell cause some dude outplayed some other dude online? gah

    #232121

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    The Dire Bear is supposed to the special Tigan thing, I don’t want to give to all Shamans. If it’s really super OP, that just means it’s a huge across the board buff for the Arch Druid, which I don’t see as being necessary. I’ll nerf the thing’s stats a bit, to try and fix it.

    As for Invigorate, I genuinely didn’t know it was not on a cooldown. When I designed it, I asked someone else to make it and I guess I never actually checked their work. I’ll put a cooldown on it to stop all the crazy shenanigans.

    also did i have to read 3 pages of ranting about a certain spell cause some dude outplayed some other dude online? gah

    Yeah, I think everything that can be said about Death March, has been said. I think you’re going to have to accept the fact that almost everyone disagrees with you Jolly Joker, and no amount arguing is likely to change that. I’ve already dedicated half this patch to fixing issues raised by the game you’re discussing, I don’t think more is needed in that area.

    #232124

    WRT Shamans, not everyone has to transform. I think it’d be quite cool to have some transform and some summon.

    Going offtopic a bit here though.

    #232128

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    If people want to make Shaman’s more interesting by inventing a ton of summon and transform abilities, I can explain how to mod it in. Transform abilities are really fiddly, but once you’ve got the steps down you could probably add a bunch more relatively fast. Tactical Summons are pretty easy to do as well.

    #232139

    @ Tombles, I certainly wouldn’t say no to more modding examples.

    May I suggest a Vampire transformation if you are going to make a case study?

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