Update 1.701+ Patch Notes – Updated 6/10/2015

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Update 1.701+ Patch Notes – Updated 6/10/2015

This topic contains 551 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  Garresh 6 years, 7 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 181 through 210 (of 552 total)
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  • #232880

    NINJEW
    Member

    NINJEW, and you play multiplayer at least one game?

    hahahahahahahahahahaha

    #232883

    Melciar
    Member

    NINJEWVery informative. As I understand it, there is nothing to argue?

    #232887

    ephafn
    Member

    The change to EXP farming is great! But there are still two aspects to annoy me: you get more total exp by dealing weak attacks with a high tier unit (a tier 4 could get 45 xp from a tier 1, while a tier 1 would be limited to 15 xp, including the kill xp), and sometimes you get less exp from killing a unit than simply injuring it (the most common case being killing a tier 1 unit with hero using a crossbow, getting 5 xp instead of 6 xp).

    Using the current framework, my suggestions would be:
    1- Instead of using “number of times a unit can be attacked and yield xp”, replace it with “total xp which can be yielded by the unit”. So a tier 1 unit would yield a total of 10 xp, which obviously would be depleted much faster by higher tier units.

    And either of:
    2- When killing a unit, the unit doing the killing would get both the killing xp and the damage xp. So a hero using a crossbow to kill a tier 1 unit would get 2*3xp + 5xp = 11xp for doing so.
    2′- When killing a unit, the unit also receives all the “xp for being damaged” that was left by the dead unit (from the first suggestion). So the total amount of xp given by any unit will always be the same, no matter the number of strikes to kill it. Obviously the total “xp for being damaged” should be reduced accordingly.

    Hopefully those suggestions can be implemented without redoing the full xp system.

    #232888

    NINJEW
    Member

    the fact that you think that any disagreement with you must stem from having never played MP at all is really, really funny

    you didn’t even check to see if i was in the tourney did you

    #232889

    Melciar
    Member

    NINJEW, but you’re not playing in any tournament.And I, in addition to the tournament, played with the strongest players. With Azazir, with Abednego, with Techno. What do you say to that?
    I assume that you play on the Internet. But … Rather – on funny settings in a narrow circle of friends. It’s not bad. But it can not claim their opinion in terms of balancing the game.
    I repeat: the replacement of the classical healing iron heart – it is the murder of a class of theocracy.

    #232890

    NINJEW
    Member

    dude i was in the official tournament

    i’m also in another, offsite tournament currently

    attacking someone’s credentials is absurdly silly, especially when you’re kind of wrong. if you think you’re right, try putting forward an actual argument, instead of saying “i’m a pro player so everything i say must be right.”

    or continue i suppose, it’s pretty funny. i worry that the joke will grow old though

    #232891

    NINJEW
    Member

    i mean i was just laughing at you anyway so i guess there isn’t really an argument to be had here

    “AD and theo are stricken from the game” is probably the kind of talking point that needs elaboration though.

    #232892

    Melciar
    Member

    dude i was in the official tournament

    And how far are you advanced in the tournament grid? Kind of like a left at the first stage, right?
    But … Let’s leave it. Tell me, do you really think that is the strength theocrat Dreadnought? Do you really think that repairing cars at every turn Dreadnought – is this normal?

    #232893

    Melciar
    Member

    i mean i was just laughing at you anyway so i guess there isn’t really an argument to be had here

    “AD and theo are stricken from the game” is probably the kind of talking point that needs elaboration though.

    During the tournament, I won with great difficulty Dreadnought. Playing for the Archdruid.He defeated by more experience and mass building cities. Just because there is nothing to kill Archdruid death machine dreadnought.

    #232894

    Zaskow
    Member

    Do you really think that repairing cars at every turn Dreadnought – is this normal?

    Really. Why do you nerf all kinds of healing, but leave Repair machine as is? It works every round. Imagine how wide space of abuse for this ability in manual battles.

    #232895

    NINJEW
    Member

    the investment required for dreadnought to repair its machines does a pretty good job of counterbalancing the in battle strength of repair machine. outside of battle, machines have no natural regeneration, and 15 hp split between 5 units is not very much health healed. inside battle, you either have to bring along a weak as dirt builder (after investing all the way up to a master’s guild), or spend 195 mana and 50 gold to get the ability on a hero (after investing in an item forge). these are both pretty expensive to access, and have some serious tactical downsides to deploying. to be quite honest, you’re probably dead before you can amass a proper machine force able to take advantage of these sources of healing, and have also built up significant access to that healing. no rush required, you ain’t gonna have that shit turn 30.

    #232896

    NINJEW
    Member

    i don’t think many people are worried about healing exploits in the midgame and beyond. it’s really just an early game issue. neither healing nor repair machine are early game abilities anymore, so they haven’t been touched.

    #232898

    Melciar
    Member

    the investment required for dreadnought to repair its machines does a pretty good job of counterbalancing

    Look, dude, Behold my squad with the two heroes-dreadnoughts, three golems and cannons. Cannon and golems – is There exists T3 and T2, respectively. And you, for example – with the detachment of the two heroes theocrats, a preacher and three Crusaders. What do you think, who will win this fight?
    What machines do not regenerate – is justified by the fact that the dreadnought is the best indicator of production among all classes.
    Plus. The problem with endless repairing, and the one and only treatment for it is in combat mode.

    #232899

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Undead have no regeneration – without ANY form of heal, what are they supposed to do?

    At the undead have unit Resurrector. Which from the beginning has the skills of healing. In theocrat – auxiliary units lack the skills of healing, without further study of the Order of healers. Questions? Who has a better chance of survival?

    No, not true. Reanimator comes after Lost Soul in Research and cost 120, so you need 180 Res at least to be able to build one. Those guys get the same Heal Undead than the Hero starts with (which means, the only regeneration the hero stack gets is 25 points per combat for 1 unit, 25 points between turns and normal Hero regeneration between turns because hero is living). Order of Healing cost 200. Also, Theo gets Evangelist with Healing for 220 Research while Necro gets Healers of the Dead (same thing as Order of Healing) for 400.
    So you are pretty wrong with Necro.

    Necromancers have the same problem now than everyone else – they can heal only once per turn (and the Supports as well).

    You did not understand. Theocracy hero can now be treated once during the entire battle. Iron heart is not restored

    Actually it’s you who don’t understand Necro: Necro hero cannot be healed at all, since he LIVES (only with the usual racial supports).

    As for city building: if a mere 50 more gold (the cost of 1 turn rushing) is killing the strategy, the change must be good.

    Not 50 gold. More. And for the dwarves – even more. And with this change game losing biodiversity. Unfortunately, most of the players or inexperienced, or too stupid to understand it.

    No, not more, because their construction CANNOT be rushed anymore, which makes the bigger difference. Building settlers now just takes a lot of time (and even more time because of the higher cost). So, yes, you can build, but not RUSH.

    I mean, in all fairness – don’t you think the game loses a lot when you RUSH everything (have enough gold and happiness to do so)? What would happen, if they would increase the rushing costs? Say the rushed cost multiplied with the number of days lost? Would you stop playing because you had to do everything with normal speed?
    I’ve always said, rushing is too cheap, mind you …

    #232900

    NINJEW
    Member

    Look, dude, Behold my squad with the two heroes-dreadnoughts, three golems and cannons. Cannon and golems – is There exists T3 and T2, respectively. And you, for example – with the detachment of the two heroes theocrats, a preacher and three Crusaders. What do you think, who will win this fight?
    What machines do not regenerate – is justified by the fact that the dreadnought is the best indicator of production among all classes.
    Plus. The problem with endless repairing, and the one and only treatment for it is in combat mode.

    yeah no shit dread wins dude, dread wouldn’t need the healing to win that. dread machines are substantially more powerful than their equivalent weight in living troops. 3 crusaders and an evangelist gives the theo no offensive power, while dreadnought gets a fucking cannon? 2 crusaders, 2 racial supports, and 2 heroes would fare much better (still lose though, you can’t beat dread pound for pound)

    #232901

    Melciar
    Member

    Jolly Joker, look, I play many game for necromancer.

    No, not true. Reanimator comes after Lost Soul in Research and cost 120, so you need 180 Res at least to be able to build one

    I have first unit Reanimator about 4-5 turn.

    Order of Healing cost 200.

    Thus, it is not always available for the study. And for the construction of the priest-doctor is still required detuning of 2 buildings. Rescue is built immediately.
    But the problem is not necromancy. The problem is beyond the powerful Dreadnought.

    #232902

    quo
    Member

    Really. Why do you nerf all kinds of healing, but leave Repair machine as is? It works every round. Imagine how wide space of abuse for this ability in manual battles.

    Not to get too emotional about it, but do not do not do not do not nerf Repair Machine to settle some PVP dispute. It is fine in Single Player and pretty much the only reason I can stand to play a Dreadnought. The only thing Builders with Repair Machine need are a fix to them fleeing auto combat.

    Most of the stuff going on this in this balance thread, like most of the others, is extremely PVP centered. That’s fine, just realize what it is, and what a small segment of the gaming population it represents. Changing the game so that Builders can’t heal every turn would give this unit nothing to do, flatten one of the most satisfying and complex strategies in the game (working up to Master’s Guilds in silo cities to get a network of healing Builders, and then using this mostly non-combat unit as best you can). Making it so Builders are worthless to Dreadnoughts in Tactical is not a solution.

    #232903

    Melciar
    Member

    yeah no shit dread wins dude, dread wouldn’t need the healing to win that. dread machines are substantially more powerful than their equivalent weight in living troops. 3 crusaders and an evangelist gives the theo no offensive power, while dreadnought gets a fucking cannon? 2 crusaders, 2 racial supports, and 2 heroes would fare much better (still lose though, you can’t beat dread pound for pound)

    Good. Do you see this. Now class theocrat weaken. What is the result? Dreadnought has the best shock troops. Dreadnought has the best production. Dreadnought able to get virtually immortal troop fighting machines. I love to play for the dreadnought. But this patch makes the game boring. True.

    #232904

    Zaskow
    Member

    the investment required for dreadnought to repair its machines does a pretty good job of counterbalancing the in battle strength of repair machine.

    I lol’d. Took Repair machine from 1st level of hero. What a big investment!

    outside of battle, machines have no natural regeneration, and 15 hp split between 5 units is not very much health healed

    Heal Undead has almost same healing possibilities and works only ONCE per battle. Undead don’t regen. See the difference.

    Not to get too emotional about it, but do not do not do not do not nerf Repair Machine to settle some PVP dispute.

    PVP aside.
    Can you see a problem in manual battles when player-dread has MUCH WIDER possibility to heal his units, more then Theo or Druid? It’s ridiculous. This problem arises much more in specific PVP, like PBEM.

    #232908

    quo
    Member

    Can you see a problem in manual battles when player-dread has MUCH WIDER possibility to heal his units, more then Theo or Druid? It’s ridiculous. This problem arises much more in specific PVP, like PBEM.

    No I don’t see a problem. The first Dreadnought Machine except for Spy Drones is the Golem, which is 4 units down the chain, and usually appears around Turn 15-20, so its not like an early Dreadnought has anything to heal.

    I do think nerfing Heal Undead to 1:battle is a huge mistake though.

    #232913

    Zaskow
    Member

    No I don’t see a problem. The first Dreadnought Machine except for Spy Drones is the Golem, which is 4 units down the chain, and usually appears around Turn 15-20, so its not like an early Dreadnought has anything to heal.

    Trebuchets.

    #232914

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Except that by mid game every Support unit has Heal Unded, plus there are the Reanimate abilities. Lesser reanimate Undead ability means, you can throw a unit to the wolves, then reanimate it for half health which is very effective.

    Having a Reanimator in turn 4 or 5 is possible only with Knowledge scrolls and serious rush building on regular settings. As I said, rushing is too cheap.

    #232915

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Awhat if the cost of Aura of Healing was reduced to 3 as well? That would let you have both Chaplain and Heal Aura for 6 points.

    Yes, I think that would mostly compensate the loss of healing. The tactics during combats would have to be slightly different but overall (if you play correctly – and for PBEM and solo, I cannot say for live MP -), the result should be the same.

    #232917

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Dreadnaughts only have Heal Machine on heroes, gold level engineers and enhanced builders. Necros get heal undead on all reanimators and, potentially, every other support unit as well. Plus Necros can literally bring units back after they’ve been killed using Reanimate. Comparing the two classes makes no sense at all really.

    Anyways, all I can see here is evidence that Dreadnaught is very strong. In a 1vs1 fight between:

    2 Theocrat Heroes, 3 Crusaders, 1 Evangelist

    vs

    2 Dreadnaught Heroes, 3 Golems, 1 Cannon

    Then Bestow Iron Heart is in many ways better than healing, because it lets you give your Crusaders a +1 def/res bonus til the end of combat, which is probably much more useful than the extra 5hp from healing since they need to go toe-to-toe with golems. The Theocrat can’t drag the fight out because the cannon will kill everything unless he moves forwards and attacks, and Golems have guard breaker, so they’ll just bash through the crusader’s lines. Being able to repeat their heal ability is probably irrelevent, the battle will likely be over by turn 4. So, at the end of the day, the Theocrat changes make almost zero difference to the fight you described, in fact they might actually help.

    The settler change is only 50gold, it means one settler takes 1 turn longer to build, and maybe half a turn’s income. The first settler is still only 125 gold, so you can always safely expand once, it just is harder to mass produce settlers to cover the area with outposts before your opponent can get to you. I think the idea that the only other strategy is to rush is frankly, laughable, and undermines your claims about your MP experience.

    Finally almost every single one of these changes was based on stuff from multiplayer matches. People in the tournament were complaining so much about people spamming settlers that they had to change the map settings to stop it happening in the final. People who play PBEM were complaining that Archdruid and Theocrat were winning almost every match because they could use exploits with healing and mind control to get such a huge lead early on, that they were almost impossible to defeat.

    #232920

    Zaskow
    Member

    Plus Necros can literally bring units back after they’ve been killed using Reanimate. Comparing the two classes makes no sense at all really.

    *sigh*
    Reassemble…

    Anyways, all I can see here is evidence that Dreadnaught is very strong. In a 1vs1 fight between:

    Try to beat everything with full 3 stacks of cannons. Weakness of all other unit combo against cannons will surprise you.

    I think the idea that the only other strategy is to rush is frankly, laughable, and undermines your claims about your MP experience.

    Please, ask experienced live MP-players. Azzazir, for example. He can tell many interesting things about current balance and planned changes.

    Finally almost every single one of these changes was based on stuff from multiplayer matches.

    Clarification: not from live MP, but from PBEM.

    People in the tournament were complaining so much about people spamming settlers that they had to change the map settings to stop it happening in the final.

    Inability of some persons to counter effective strategy can’t be a reason to nerfs or similar big changes.

    People who play PBEM were complaining that Archdruid and Theocrat were winning almost every match because they could use exploits with healing and mind control to get such a huge lead early on, that they were almost impossible to defeat.

    And these changes nullify completely usefulness of these abilities for live MP. Great. What’s next?

    #232923

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Reassemble…

    Is not a unit ability that can be used by multiple units in an army without spending mana or casting points. You might as well say that Rogues have healing as good as Theocrats because they have Quick Dash.

    Azzazir, for example. He can tell many interesting things about current balance and planned changes.

    Why doesn’t he then?

    All I see is you and one other person complaining, and almost everyone else who posts is disagreeing with you. Why should I listen to you, and not the others? I ran these changes past a bunch of long term players, who play MP, PBEM and Singleplayer, and they all mostly agreed to them.

    And these changes nullify completely usefulness of these abilities for live MP. Great. What’s next?

    No they don’t, and you know that they don’t. You’re exaggerating hugely, like you almost always do, which makes your arguments very hard to accept.

    #232924

    Zaskow
    Member

    s not a unit ability that can be used by multiple units in an army without spending mana or casting points. You might as well say that Rogues have healing as good as Theocrats because they have Quick Dash.

    But this spell can be used multiple times and has no tier limits.

    I ran these changes past a bunch of long term players, who play MP, PBEM and Singleplayer, and they all mostly agreed to them.

    I don’t see experienced live-mp players in this thread. From tournament at least.

    No they don’t, and you know that they don’t. You’re exaggerating hugely, like you almost always do, which makes your arguments very hard to accept.

    All I know is convert abilities DON’T working in live MP with massed auto-battles. In big manual combat against minimum skilled opponent they’re weak too, because: a) massed Break control (100% guaranty); b) massed Dispel (50% guaranty); c) killing a caster (100% guaranty, because most convert abilities are touch type and it leaves a caster in vulnerable position).

    #232931

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    All I know is convert abilities DON’T working in live MP with massed auto-battles. In big manual combat against minimum skilled opponent they’re weak too, because: a) massed Break control (100% guaranty); b) massed Dispel (50% guaranty); c) killing a caster (100% guaranty, because most convert abilities are touch type and it leaves a caster in vulnerable position).

    If they don’t work in live MP, then it doesn’t matter that I changed them.

    I don’t see experienced live-mp players in this thread. From tournament at least.

    I have a thread in closed beta, I discuss all the changes with them before I put them live to the open beta. These guys have been playing the game for hundreds of hours, since it’s been released mostly, so they do know a lot about the game. I personally don’t know who has the most experience with what game mode though, and I’m not going to start naming them all here, because that’s not fair on them.

    But this spell can be used multiple times and has no tier limits.

    So is Quick Dash, so Rogues are good at healing? There’s a big difference between an ability on one of your core units and a spell you need to research and deploy a hero in order to use.

    #232932

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Also, a lot of this seems to come down to “Dreadnaught is really strong”, not “you’ve made everything else too weak”. Is there like a thread somewhere about this I can read? Because I personally have always thought Reassemble was too good, but most of the people I ask say I shouldn’t change it.

    #232935

    quo
    Member

    Except that by mid game every Support unit has Heal Unded, plus there are the Reanimate abilities. Lesser reanimate Undead ability means, you can throw a unit to the wolves, then reanimate it for half health which is very effective.

    Having a Reanimator in turn 4 or 5 is possible only with Knowledge scrolls and serious rush building on regular settings. As I said, rushing is too cheap.

    What makes this somewhat ridiculous is it actually makes it more effective to have the unit die and be resurrected than to end the battle with 5 HP but having never died.

    Heal Undead was fine. There are always going to be issues with abilities that let you leave combat with more than you came in with and trying to chase them all down quickly leads down a rabbit hole.

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