Update v1.51 Patch Notes – UPDATED 24/4/2015

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Update v1.51 Patch Notes – UPDATED 24/4/2015

This topic contains 244 replies, has 51 voices, and was last updated by  Narvek 5 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 181 through 210 (of 245 total)
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  • #188237

    NINJEW
    Member

    Elves got -10% to population growth. It’s big when you develop Racial Governance for elves. With this nerf elves get their upgrades later than other.

    Elves got a slightly weaker economy to compensate for all their units basically being the best at everything now. Elf Swordsmen got buffed into being on par with other races (for some reason humans aren’t better at cutting people up than frail sissy elves???), their cavalry can teleport, initiates evolve into storm sisters (small bonus, but better than, say, prospectors, and not many things resist shock I don’t think), and Union Guard do dual channel damage now. Meanwhile, Longbowmen, Storm Sisters, and Gryphons are still top notch units. Elves are straight up on par with, or better than, every other race in pretty much all their racial units. So now they have a slightly tougher time getting those units out, boo hoo

    Their melee has been brought up to par, their support and cavalry are good and their bows have always been top notch. Their supports can’t even be flanked anymore.

    The smaller population growth is to make up for all the buffs that Elves have been getting. Elves literally don’t have a single bad racial unit, they’re all on par with humans or better. As a result, Elven cities develop more slowly, to offset the fact that the elf units you can get from those cities are really good now

    #188238

    NINJEW
    Member

    was dark ritual changed to not affect enemy cities? bcs its not listed in notes

    I’m quoting this because I don’t want this genuine question about the patch notes to get buried in all of this.

    #188241

    Zaskow
    Member

    The smaller population growth is to make up for all the buffs that Elves have been getting. Elves literally don’t have a single bad racial unit, they’re all on par with humans or better. As a result, Elven cities develop more slowly, to offset the fact that the elf units you can get from those cities are really good now

    This is debatable. I’m not sure after all of this buffs for orcs and humans.

    #188243

    NINJEW
    Member

    Orcs and Humans still have bad units. Razorbows suck. Humans are the “standard” race, but every t1 infantry except the Elf Swordsman is better than the Human Longswords (Elf swordsman is on par, despite how melee is supposed to be Elve’s main weakness).

    You could argue that Orcs have melee superiority, but the Humans don’t have any huge tactical advantage like the Elf Longbows. (you could argue gryphons vs knights and priests vs storm sisters, but in every case essential Elf units are either Roughly As Good As or Better Than the human equivalent)

    The humans make up for being the “all our stuff is on par or worse” race by having an economic advantage. Elves, meanwhile, have an economic disadvantage, because their units are strictly better for the most part. This is called Balance.

    #188244

    thepope
    Member

    I don’t see whats the big deal about elves getting lower pop grwoth. It’s always been that way in the AoW series and makes perfect sense: Goblins get higher pop growth to make up for their generally frailer units, Elves get lower pop growth because they’re bad at having sex.

    Not only is it a staple of the AoW series it’s also common across all fantasy series in general and is even true in LoTR which is pretty much the birthplace of elf fanboyism.

    #188245

    NINJEW
    Member

    I always play Human Dreadnought so I’m seriously not dissing the Human units, they’re awesome, but if you compare side by side you’ll see that Elves are, unit by unit, pretty much better. (priests have a heal but storm sisters have a stun and an element that nothing resists, Gryphons are slightly worse than knights defensively and significantly worse in terms of brute strength, but can fly which really lets them leverage their close-enough strength in the best places. To simplify things I’m calling these cases as “roughly as good as”)

    Oh and I suppose with throw net Civic Guard are actually better than Initiates. That’s the only victory Humans will ever get in an even bodycount war.

    #188253

    Zaskow
    Member

    priests have a heal but storm sisters have a stun and an element that nothing resists

    Priests have daze actually, worse version of stun.

    You could argue that Orcs have melee superiority, but the Humans don’t have any huge tactical advantage like the Elf Longbows.

    Human archers on elite can also inflict a lot of damage.

    Times when elves were best are gone…

    #188257

    NINJEW
    Member

    I meant before medals, actually. Storm sisters have the touch attack. After medals it’s still a bit of a toss up on supports, actually, since then it’s heals + daze vs no heals but superior stun.

    If you think you’ll be able to mass Human Archers up to gold, which brings them to maybe equivalent to, uh, an Elf Longbow without medals, then good luck man. But really, there’s no way you can count on getting enough archers up to gold to make up for that massive ranged damage advantage

    So, again, to balance this, Longbows are more expensive and Elf Cities take longer to grow so it’s harder to pump out lots of them. Humans, meanwhile, can shit out their Archers all day, to even out how much weaker individually their archers are

    Balance

    #188259

    Yeah, blight weakness and extra for supports, is staying. It makes goblins a good match, and keeps elves from being great necromancers. Total awareness and the elf resistance buff mean that your effective weakness is actually more like 20% on flanks.

    To keep it simple, a 12 attack (with flank bonus) vs a ten resistance is 12, then 10-14. For a high elf with 11 resistance and total awareness (so 10 strength) you get 13, for 11-15. A straight attack on the first target is 8-12, vs the same 11-15 for the high elf.

    For flanks, all the 40 gets you is one extra damage, only about ten percent more. You need a lot of blight, like a poison spit from a king serpent, to really take advantage. And elf archers are very effective vs. all blight vectors.

    #188261

    NINJEW
    Member

    Yeah what exactly spits out blight that Elf Archers can’t decimate with ease anyway

    That Blight Weakness is such a nonissue lol. The single dangling thread in the perfect elf tapestry

    It doesn’t actually matter at all, but such an injustice must not be allowed to continue to exist, it’s an eyesore

    #188289

    Chimaira
    Member

    Elves are perfectly fine, leave them alone 🙂

    #188293

    Zaskow
    Member

    So, again, to balance this, Longbows are more expensive and Elf Cities take longer to grow so it’s harder to pump out lots of them.

    Besides longbows elves haven’t any special units.

    In MP later access to racial governance upgrades means very much. Longbow and other elven stuff can’t compensate this.

    You need a lot of blight, like a poison spit from a king serpent, to really take advantage.

    Poison spit from untouchables is enough. Even ordinary poison bolts are enough…

    #188301

    Kozzie
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Kozzie wrote:</div>
    was dark ritual changed to not affect enemy cities? bcs its not listed in notes

    I’m quoting this because I don’t want this genuine question about the patch notes to get buried in all of this.

    thx, ill bump it again beacuse the elf fiscussion is kinda monopolizing the topic and i would really like to know – i know it was said that they will make it friendly city only but since the notes do not mention it i will keep asking;)

    #188305

    NINJEW
    Member

    Besides longbows elves haven’t any special units.

    What do you mean by “Special?” Do you mean class units or noteable racial units? Both of these answers are confusing to me, because we have discussed both of these at length.

    Class units: In addition to Longbows, Elves get total awareness on their supports (which is, in fact, a pretty big bonus)

    Racial units: Flying mounted T3 that can zip right over to the middle of the enemy archers and supports and tear them all apart, and unlike the halfling eagle rider the gryphon will live to tell the tale

    Dual Channel pikes

    Longbows

    Electric attack supports (nothing resists shock, remember) who have a stun touch

    Cavalry that can teleport, making it quite possibly the best t2 cavalry in the game

    so uh

    In MP later access to racial governance upgrades means very much. Longbow and other elven stuff can’t compensate this.

    What the fuck kind of MP games are you playing. You get that shit going past turn 50 or something? Man that’s like tens of hours of playing, ain’t nobody gonna stick around for that crap. Actual MP is short and sweet, you start on a small map and get to fighting ASAP. Actual AoW3 gameplay should resemble turn based Starcraft. MP Racial Governance reaches level 2, 3 if you went shadowborn, and that isn’t going to be affected much by the elf pop growth (and besides, the better elf units would make up for it if it did)

    I mean even if you were going into really late game you could just build housing a couple of times and call it even.

    Furthermore, longbows compensate plenty, and I don’t know why you’d think they wouldn’t

    #188307

    Voyager I
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>thepope wrote:</div>
    But one more point of blight damage cam mean the difference between life and death! For example what if my stack of elven mounted archers got ambushed by a stack of swarm darters? That one extra point of damage could mean one of my units could die! Elves aren’t supposed to die! I suggest for lore reasons all elves should get resurgence because there’s no way an elf would allow themselves to be killed by one of the lesser races.

    Try to troll elsewhere, clown…

    lololmao m8 dank meme u fkin #rekt taht scrubl0rd

    On a more serious note, Elf Swords and Raiders both had 10 armor despite Raiders not having the Armored trait. People complained that this was a discrepancy with I suppose some justification, and the Raiders lost a point of armor to bring them down to par with other unarmored units. Then Elf Swords got an extra point of armor anyways, putting them on par with Dwarves despite the +1 racial armor bonus. Now that the Master Race has received its concessions, can Raiders get their armor back, or does appeasement really never work?

    #188310

    NINJEW
    Member

    Poison spit from untouchables is enough. Even ordinary poison bolts are enough…

    Ok lemme do some math (someone let me know if I do this wrong, I’m not super familiar with all the formulas)

    Untouchable goblin spit is strength 11. High Elf Swordsman has a resist of 9, which means that that’s 12 damage before blight weakness. Factor in 20% blight weakness, and that’s 14 damage, a different of 2 hitpoints because of the blight weakness

    Compare to Human Longswords. 11 damage poison spit vs 8 resist = 13 damage, no weakness or resist ever factors in.

    So uh. Yeah that 1 point of damage difference is pretty negligible. You’re talking out of your ass dude.

    #188315

    Voyager I
    Member

    No special units other than the best archers in the game with an RG1 upgrade that makes them even better, the least resisted elemental damage type as their racial element, teleporting armor-piercing cavalry at T2 with an RG2 upgrade that give them phase on a 1-turn cooldown, and flying dual-channel cavalry at T3, with their class units getting Longbows handed out like candy.

    #188324

    johnmr531
    Member

    I love playing elevs. Thats all I know is elves are supposed to be great at ranged(longbow) and have some tricks up their sleeves(storm sisters, unicorn riders, I guess gryphons)

    They should get wrecked in direct melee against superior melee races; orcs, dwarves, maybe humans.
    As long as we design with that in mind and keep everything balanced I’m good with whatever changes go in.

    If we make them crappy in melee just make sure theirs ways for them to still be useful and fun…. abilities. Elves often are an agile race so I wouldnt mind seeing the swordsman be more agile but kinda frail. But they are holding a shield which tells me they can take some hits… but they suck in melee. As an idea why dont we just do away with swordsman as they are and make the infantry some kind of agile unit? It would gets slaughtered fast in direct melee but would have some tricks to flank well and do some hits without retaliation or maybe some sort of luck ability to avoid damage. Instead Give their Union Guard a shield and make it the defensive unit to protect longbowmen, and possibly lower their damage.

    Blight weakness is good for them. When playing against gobs it stings.

    #188325

    was dark ritual changed to not affect enemy cities? bcs its not listed in notes

    Dark Ritual was changed to affect enemy cities.
    Internal testing at Triumph apparently resulted in a change of mind, but not before the patch deadline.
    Right now it looks like this patch will have Dark Ritual affecting enemy cities and the next patch will remove it again.

    Also I don’t recall on their useless racial bonus (+1 shock range damage) which inflicts only on 3 units…

    Initiates
    Storm Sisters
    Apprentices

    Right, it’s just 3, but…
    Focus Chamber (every Archer)
    Arcane Arrows RG upgrade (every Archer)

    That’s a tiny bit more than 3 with a little bit of work. Also:
    Star Blades

    It’s not as useless as you imply, and with a little effort to use it it is all over the place.

    #188334

    johnmr531
    Member

    I cant edit my post but I guess I described more of an irregular rather then an infantry unit that directly engages another. Ive just thought it was a bit odd that elves have a armored sword and shield infantry unit that is supposed to be frail while while the humans do not.

    I would have thought humans would have had the sword n shield infantry.

    Maybe elves should have some kind of infantry built around martial arts… just throwing some ideas out there.

    I also kinda think elves being agile dodgy race would have more opportunities to cause opponents to miss. But AOW3 doesnt do dodging often and thats a whole other discussion.

    #188350

    Quaranyr
    Member

    Is this forum moderated or something? Because when I last been in this theme it was about patch and future changes, not about some idiotic POOR ELVES NEEDS BUFF!!!11 vs ELVES ARE OP!!!111 flamewar.
    No offence.

    As someone who doesn’t belong to either group I’ll say again: in my opinion all elves need is more class unit diversity. For example, Monster Hunters have (or is it just me?) strong elven vibe in their looks and associated with elves in campaign (*remembers first try of Commonwealth Loyalist final mission, than shudders*) yet their elven version have nothing special.
    This and some RG upgrade for griphon rider as he is the only t3 that doesn’t have any. That’s all.

    Elves in general DON’T need buffing – all of their non-class units ARE very good. Initiates too – they evolves into storm sisters after all. The only one who needed a buff was swordsman – he got it. Forestry is very useful as woods are usually much more common than swamps/moutains/etc. Total Awareness DO allow to survive where other die. Yes, it woild interesting for some melee/irregular class unit have it (with cost increase of cource) – who said it wouldn’t be done in one of the future patches? And bonus resistance is always awesome. As are archers! *even through I startng to hate them*

    And Elves don’t nerfing either. Blight Vulnerability, while not critical, is still painful sometimes and blight indeed is the most common magic damage type. Tier1 units have low health, a lot of units are quite costly and bonus research is mostly useless. And don’t forget about complete lack of healing.

    #188441

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Is this forum moderated or something? Because when I last been in this theme it was about patch and future changes, not about some idiotic POOR ELVES NEEDS BUFF!!!11 vs ELVES ARE OP!!!111 flamewar.
    No offence.

    It was the middle of the night in the Netherlands, we’ve all got to sleep!

    Anyways, I think the great Elven War of the 25th of April should now end. I need this thread to collect patch feedback, and I’m not sure much of the last few pages contains any.

    All I saw was:

    thx, ill bump it again beacuse the elf fiscussion is kinda monopolizing the topic and i would really like to know – i know it was said that they will make it friendly city only but since the notes do not mention it i will keep asking;)

    We did say we’d revert the spell back to friendly city only! I’m afraid I forgot to actually do it though. Hopefully I’ll have time to change it on Tuesday when we get back to work! (Monday is a national holiday here)

    #188443

    Fenraellis
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Tombles wrote:</div>

  • Dread Reaper now has 8 spirit/8 blight/8 frost damage (was 8 physical/4 blight/8 frost)
  • Invoke Death will now work on Elementals
  • Sigh, I already thought the Dread Reaper was the strongest class T4: albeit, Invoke Death can be totally negated by some class or heroes.

    For what it’s worth, I already expressed my disagreement with the Invoke Death change. I do think the melee attack change was fairly necessary, though.

    Look on the bright side, swapping Physical for Spirit, makes Theocrats(and Dreadnoughts) even BETTER against them.

    Elves get lower pop growth because they’re bad at having sex.

    Hey, I’ll have you know… er, never mind. I’m not one to kiss and tell. Not like that Ham fellow.

    Anyway, I think it’s mostly the whole ’10-year pregnancy period’ thing, you know? Realistically, they should have a massive growth penalty, but the amount of buffs they would need as compensation makes it an impossible idea.

    To keep it simple, a 12 attack (with flank bonus) vs a ten resistance is 12, then 10-14. For a high elf with 11 resistance and total awareness (so 10 strength) you get 13, for 11-15. A straight attack on the first target is 8-12, vs the same 11-15 for the high elf.

    (A correction, and expounding on your point as well, chryso <3)
    In your example, that 10 strength attack against the 11 Resistance Elf with Total Awareness should be 9 strength, and thus 7 ~ 11 damage(compared to 10 ~ 14 when Flanking a 10-Res target).
    7 ~ 11 is for all Non-Blight elemental damage(i.e. Fire/Frost/Shock/Spirit), and against Blight at 20% Weakness it would still be 9 ~ 13, and thus less than a Flanked 10-Res unit.
    Against Blight at 40% Weakness, it would be 10 ~ 15(I think… I’m not 100% sure if Protection multipliers round the result before damage calculations or not), which is still the same minimum and only one higher maximum damage than the 10-Res unit that got Flanked.

    Meanwhile, as mentioned, they took an average of 3 less damage against every element that ISN’T Blight than the non-Elf would have. 2 less Physical, too. Oh, and that difference of 2 from voiding the Flanking damage can also often be the difference between rounding up or down for an attack’s damage calculations. Particularly for Physical damage which often has more variable damage values.

    #188445

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Banshee + Bone Collector should do okay against machines, the reaper was never that great against them anyways.

    #188450

    Astarael
    Member

    There’s a typo when in the diplomacy screen with another player. If you mouse over the face to see why they like/dislike you, it will say things like “You went to war with HIS enemy” even when the person you’re in diplomacy with is female. If the code doesn’t check what gender the person you’re in diplomacy with is, maybe you can replace “his” with “their” and not have to worry about using the correct pronoun for separate gender, i.e. “You went to war with their enemy”

    #188453

    Astarael
    Member

    Oh and the icon shown for Seek Inspiration in the Tome of Wonders is not the same one as the spell book. It uses the disjunction icon

    #188464

    Aameul
    Member

    Tombles, do you think the ghouling of summoned angels (not ones acquired with Ghoul Curse) by Lich Aura/Well should be looked at? They compete for casting points with the Dread Reaper, and especially the Fallen Angel which also has similar multi-channel attack and abilities doesn’t look that appealing in comparison when ghouling brings her to 100% Spirit Weakness. It’s reasonable to keep specialization summons from overshadowing class T4 summons, but I don’t think that’s the case when angels are compared to Eldritch Horror or the Horned God even though Sorcerers and Druids don’t get a ghoul-like penalty for their angels in hero stacks.

    Perhaps Lich Aura should just make angels undead but not ghouls, or give them something like Embalmed to offset the ghouling?

    #188467

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Well, I tried banning ghouling of Angels and everyone went nuts. First I added an exception for the fallen one, then I had to add one for the Chthonic, and I’ve had people ask for ghouled archangels as well.

    I understand your point, people have asked for similar stuff for dragons (having ghouled dragons become bone dragons) but it’s a lot of work so I’ve avoided it for now. We might be able to look into something for the next patch though!

    #188515

    CyperPhiber
    Member

    hurray you changed the goblin eco tier 2, but maybe im blind i cant find it in the change log 🙂 all i see twice the changes about goblin tier 5 military and manticores. did u change a 2nd goblin issue but i cant see it? 🙂 just curious and go on great job!

    #188519

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    I think I messed up some things in the patch notes, yeah!

    From what I remember:

    Goblin Economic 2 now gives 20g per farm (was 10)
    Goblin Economic 2 now gives 15g per Corrupted Farm/Spring (was 7) for Necromancers
    Draconian Military 5 now gives +4 fire damage (was +3)

    I thought about changing Dwarf Econ 2 as well (currently 3g per gold mine) but I wasn’t sure if it needed it, there are a LOT of gold mines in the game, after all.

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