Update v1.602+ Patch Notes – Updated 15/9/2015

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Update v1.602+ Patch Notes – Updated 15/9/2015

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This topic contains 169 replies, has 44 voices, and was last updated by  Tombles 6 years ago.

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  • #218790

    Motasa
    Member

    Great fixes to the necromancer. I already found the way they play a bit “strange”, really dependent on Necro hero to get the healing going early and the awkward production limitation of Deathbringers at tier 3. With these changes I might give this class another try.

    Finally, sweet lord no you’re not getting an inexpensive Sorceror exclusive buff that adds three damage channels to ranged attacks. Do you even read the things that you write?

    I’m always a bit baffled when the calls for multiple buffs follow so quickly when people are lamenting a nerf. That spell is already ridiculously cheap and useful (heroes, node serpents, etc.), so there is indeed no need to make this spell affect ranged attacks.

    #218792

    NINJEW
    Member

    currently the only way to get around sorc support stun spam is to find a way to achieve 100% resistance to their chosen racial support element and hope that they don’t think to pull out the apprentices

    stun spam having a potential counter to it apparently isn’t good and sorc needs a triple channel ranged damage buff

    i mean there’s really not much to say here. stuns are an incredibly powerful mechanic that there are very few ways of countering (a dread hero can kinda mitigate it at least?) and sorcerer just gets it out the ass. i don’t think there’s a problem with the one edge case where one player is able to achieve 100% immunity

    furthermore on flametanks vs phantasms: ignoring the “phantasms are a turn 7 tech, flame tanks are a turn 40 tech” issue, this becomes an extra silly proposal upon the realization that frostling sorcerer is one of the two top picks for sorc, and has access to a +80% fire protection buff

    double hilarious when you realize that the other top sorcerer pick is draconians

    #218826

    Voyager I
    Member

    There’s no way an experienced multiplayer guy like Nihil could have predicted that Humans would have good access to spirit immunity, and even if he had seen it coming I’m not sure what other unit you would have expected him to build to avoid the issue.

    #218834

    NINJEW
    Member

    to be fair, i didn’t know i had access to spirit immunity either until madmac told me mid-battle.

    that little aspect of bestow iron heart is pretty easily overlooked, i’d never really thought of iron heart as anything more than a heal + consolation buff

    #218917

    SpiritSeeker
    Member

    @sikbok

    We’re about to start a 24-player PBEM tournament, and we’re discussing whether to wait until end of next week in hopes of the new patch going live by then.
    Is this a realistic hope, or is patch ETA likely to be later? If the latter, we might as well start the tournament now.

    #218977

    ExNihil
    Member

    dude you know that phantasms come out way, way sooner than flame tanks do right

    Sure they do, but you can counter them with support units – some of whom are armored, so are cheaper to produce, as well as with dual channel racial units or units with dual channel through MCU’s. They are vulnerable to magic, mind control and all attacks on the resistance channel. The can counter Musket stacks and cannon stacks, but given the fact you need 80CP to summon a single one, which means by mid-game you are 2 turning a single Phantasm Warrior, whereby you can 1 turn a support in multiple cities as DN – I wouldn’t consider this a problem at all.

    In an MP game it’s like 50/50 if RG3 will even come into play. They’re helpful, but rarely the centerpiece of strategies and plenty of race/class combos have to accept that their RG upgrades not doing much of anything important for them (in which case, hey, there’s always econ!), especially since early-game upgrades are often specific to racial units whose roles may be supplanted by a class unit. An Orc Warlord isn’t getting the RG1 damage boost on his Berserkers either!

    RG3 unlocks around turn 45 if you settle hard or aggressively take control of cities and convert them to your race. It is feasible in FFA matches and 1v1 games with far start.

    I’m honestly not sure what to say to someone who was defining 48 HP with baseline T2 defensive attributes and 60% physical resistance as “quite fragile”. By those standards I guess Crusaders are “alright”.

    More than 50% of the units in the game have elemental damage, all races have support units, and most classes have ways to either synergize with supports or simply pump them out quickly, with the exceptions being WL and Rogue, the latter of which has blight damage which is very effective vs. PW. The impact of 1 resistance point is not dramatic damage-wise, this esp. effects inflicts and in this instance mind-control – I guess though that the Rogue/Theo and Sorcerer matchups are not the reason for this at all.

    Star Blades is a melee buff, not a ranged one. The only reason it has any benefit to ranged attacks is an artifact of inflict attributes being universal to the unit unless specifically created not to be (like Razor Projectiles), and casting Star Blades on a ranged unit is enough of a fringe case that it slipped under the radar or wasn’t considered worth creating an exception for. If there was going to be a mechanical correction made to the spell, it wouldn’t be the one you’re hoping for.

    The only reason it has inflict on ranged is that Star Blades is a crap spell that no one used before and it was buffed with extra damage and this inflict on ranged stuff (iirc), but this is a half measure.

    #218978

    ExNihil
    Member

    to be fair, i didn’t know i had access to spirit immunity either until madmac told me mid-battle.

    that little aspect of bestow iron heart is pretty easily overlooked, i’d never really thought of iron heart as anything more than a heal + consolation buff

    I know, I saw how you moved in combat and I understood what your sudden turn around with the Knight meant :). That’s OK, it was fun playing against the brain-tank.

    There’s no way an experienced multiplayer guy like Nihil could have predicted that Humans would have good access to spirit immunity, and even if he had seen it coming I’m not sure what other unit you would have expected him to build to avoid the issue.

    I was aware of this from the get-go, and once I saw he was using priests I should have immediately switched to apprentices – although I already had a couple of stacks of priests at that point. I didn’t use Iron Heart in the first battle at all because I didn’t want to give him any ideas. Once I did do it in the second battle I was basically gambling – I was pretty sure he didn’t know, and hoped it will go under his radar :).

    currently the only way to get around sorc support stun spam is to find a way to achieve 100% resistance to their chosen racial support element and hope that they don’t think to pull out the apprentices

    Its not a question of completely shutting down a damage channel, although this is devastating. That is OFC the problem when using Elders / Forge Priests and Human Priests, as these damage channels can be shut down in relatively many combos. This is something I’d like to be able to work around with Star Blades because the result of fighting an opponent that has access to immunities is very bad and Sorcerer is actually a rather limited class tool wise.

    As for mitigating stun spam as you called it all you need is a DN army leader, which dramatically reduces the chances of a stun being applied to begin with + any kind of resistance increase you can get (each resistance point equals -5% stun chance). The main thing though is dispel magic, as once a stun is dispelled the unit becomes completely immune to stun afterward, so if you have lots of dispel magic – which now has a relatively good range and a cooldown, you can counter stun spam effectively. There was a time that dispel was always 100% but did not immunize units afterwards (I don’t recall what kind of cooldown it had or whether it was 1xbattle). Stun is not overpoweringly strong, it is very dependent on the matchup, and can become ridiculously ineffective sometimes.

    #219031

    NINJEW
    Member

    \
    Sure they do, but you can counter them with support units – some of whom are armored, so are cheaper to produce, as well as with dual channel racial units or units with dual channel through MCU’s. They are vulnerable to magic, mind control and all attacks on the resistance channel. The can counter Musket stacks and cannon stacks, but given the fact you need 80CP to summon a single one, which means by mid-game you are 2 turning a single Phantasm Warrior, whereby you can 1 turn a support in multiple cities as DN – I wouldn’t consider this a problem at all.

    “use support units as a counter” is something that is possible now that they have 8 res. back when they had 9 res, supports were less of a “counter” and more of a, well,

    This was a very good round of changes, especially on the Phantasm nerf. The jerks started with 8 resistance before the latest expansion and it didn’t hold Sorc back a whole lot so I’m not sure why this is suddenly the deathblow of what is probably the most powerful class in the game.

    The simple truth is that Phantasms were in desperate need of a reliably exploitable weakness. They’re a core unit that’s available very early in the game and hard-counters anything that relies on physical damage. In theory they’re weak against elemental damage, but with 9 res and an HP pool that’s only slightly smaller than normal for a T2 there really wasn’t a lot of vulnerability there, especially since Sorceror armies are typically well-equipped for defensive tactical battles where the Phantasms can position themselves conservatively and spent a lot of time time in guard while supports fish for stun procs.

    You also have to consider that Supports in general aren’t actually great at dealing bulk damage. A few of them will counter the odd incorporeal unit (especially ones that have a meaningfully small HP pool) or whatever, but they’re a slow, fragile, T2 unit that does the base damage of a T1 archer and also needs to work around range and obstacle penalties. Powerful offensive supports like Witches or Elders with Seeker buffs could pull it off, but a lot of race/class combos flat out don’t have a solid answer to a robust incorporeal T2 making up half an army 20-30 turns into the game.

    The general result is that a 9 res Phantasms isn’t so much weak to elemental damage as simply not bullshit, and for how many exceptional qualities they have they very much need a vulnerability.

    p much what voyager said. phantasms were ridiculous and now their “weakness” (elemental damage) is an actual “weakness” instead of “the only way to possibly deal meaningful damage to them (where even then, it’s not all that much).”

    previously if my opponent has 3 phantasms, with a full army backing them up (lets say 2 stacks in total), i wouldn’t feel comfortable initiating that fight unless i had double the amount of supports as my opponent had phantasms, because just equal numbers wouldn’t be enough (the firepower of stunning supports makes getting past the frontline in a very short time absolutely critical, and phantasms were beefy enough against elemental damage that a few phantasms could still delay an assault by several turns, by which point my army is already half dead).

    it was kind of dumb that in order to “counter” phantasms, i had to bring twice as many of their “counter” as there were phantasms.

    #219032

    NINJEW
    Member

    Its not a question of completely shutting down a damage channel, although this is devastating. That is OFC the problem when using Elders / Forge Priests and Human Priests, as these damage channels can be shut down in relatively many combos. This is something I’d like to be able to work around with Star Blades because the result of fighting an opponent that has access to immunities is very bad and Sorcerer is actually a rather limited class tool wise.

    your “tool” for getting stuns all the time is apprentices, which will be incredibly difficult to get 100% immunities to all their elements (even draconian apprentices have physical, and it’s not exactly easy to get both physical and fire immunity). you don’t need a buff to give thta to you as well, and also give you even more additional damage channels to get ridiculous flank damage off of because it’s not like you’re already the stun class, which causes flanks nonstop in the first place.

    The main thing though is dispel magic, as once a stun is dispelled the unit becomes completely immune to stun afterward, so if you have lots of dispel magic – which now has a relatively good range and a cooldown, you can counter stun spam effectively.

    what makes you think that this is true?

    is this true? can anyone confirm if this is true?

    i have never heard of such a thing

    #219034

    NINJEW
    Member

    i can’t find any documentation of such a mechanic being implemented in either stun or dispel in the wiki

    #219048

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Just posting to say that me and Narvek, who also handles balance stuff, won’t be here next week. I will go through this thread and process feedback and figure out what to do when I get back.

    From reading everything, it seems a bigger issue is Summon Fantastic Creature being too weak that the PW. I guess maybe a tweak for the Node Serpent as well? ATM he seems to be on par with the Phalanx, when he should be on par with the warbreed.

    what makes you think that this is true?

    Unless it’s some weird side effect of how systems work, it shouldn’t be true. It’s not intended to work like that, at least!

    #219077

    Fenraellis
    Member

    The only reason it has inflict on ranged is that Star Blades is a crap spell that no one used before and it was buffed with extra damage and this inflict on ranged stuff (iirc), but this is a half measure.

    The Inflict effect always applied to ranged attacks, but not the Shock damage… The extra Fire/Frost damage channels for the melee damage buff portion of the spell was the buff.

    —–

    As with others, I’ve never heard of any “Dispel gives future Stun immunity” trick. The only ability which I know of to be coded similarly, is where resisting a potential Inflict Ghoul Curse trigger grants immunity to future Ghoul Curse(which can be dispelled and attempted again, technically) for that battle.

    #219121

    ExNihil
    Member

    As with others, I’ve never heard of any “Dispel gives future Stun immunity” trick. The only ability which I know of to be coded similarly, is where resisting a potential Inflict Ghoul Curse trigger grants immunity to future Ghoul Curse(which can be dispelled and attempted again, technically) for that battle.

    Yes that was a weird brain fart. I could swear it was there at some point, but…. well birthday is in a couple of days, perhaps its time to order some spare parts for my brain :).

    Hmmm. its sort of perverted to say, but I sorta like this idea if it was never actually a part of the game – perhaps I should propose it somewhere else.

    The Inflict effect always applied to ranged attacks, but not the Shock damage… The extra Fire/Frost damage channels for the melee damage buff portion of the spell was the buff.

    Indeed. Well, this doesn’t change the fact I want to be able to work around shut down damage channels using this spell. This is a problem for all classes OFC, but Sorcerer does need a workaround option – this class has very few tools, all of its production units are geared towards school of enchantment, without it it has summons and although powerful, they are limited to a single production channel, which means at some point it is completely surpassed by production classes, and I think this is now happening earlier than before.

    The following damage can be shut down using racial units alone:

    Spirit – can be shut down by Human Priests with Iron Heart, Many theocrat units, Using tigrans (race and class units) in combination with no less than 4 types of army leaders iirc (Theocrat, Necro, AD and Sorcerer) as well as machines and other units.

    Fire – can be shut down with first born, forge priests and elders, and these two support units can grant fire resistance to create immunities in some units with high resistance, as well as many Draconian units (class and racial) and some Tigran units (class and racial) with DN army leader.

    Frost – can be shut down with white witches and ice queens, and frostling (class and racial) with AD army leader or with as some Necro class units and racial ghouls.

    Blight – can be shut down using goblins when the opponent has no access to weaken or when the resistance is 160% or above, is closed for machines and undead.

    Now, white witches will not be shut down – because even Necro cannot create both a fire and frost immune combination – it can achieve either fire immune or frost immune armies, not both. Mystics on the other hand will be shut down when fighting units that are both spirit and fire immune, which is more common – albeit not very. Orc priests can be shut down with Necro Frostlings and Frost Tank, but thats about it. Goblin Blight Doctors cannot effectively be shut down due to weaken – it can rarely be achived with units with 160+ resistance, but that is quite rare indeed. Halflings cannot be shut down due to the physical nature of their attacks. So this leaves the following: Forge Priests, Human Priests, Elders and to some degree mystics.

    What I am asking for is to allow Inflict Stun to roll after Inflict Shocking is applied – I believe that if shocking is applied to a unit and the attack has an ability that rolls on shock, like inflict stun, it should be allowed to roll, and this is easiest achiveable by opening up at least the shock channel using star blades when it is closed – because that would allow it to roll (perhaps it is possible to let it roll without actually dealing any damage, but this doesn’t seem normal so I dunno). This could simply be +1 shock damage on ranged attack, dealing marginal damage to anything with resistance 10+ such as t3 units unless they have 100% shock weakness, which is hard to imagine happening. Conceptually this shouldn’t be a problem since it already applied inflict shocking on ranged, thus also affecting staves and the like.

    #219122

    NINJEW
    Member

    i honestly don’t see why inflict stun, easily one of the most powerful abilities in the entire game, which sorc has the ability to mass produce, needs more buffs.

    i also don’t see why shutting down a damage channel is a problem that you need a workaround for. again, apprentices are a workaround if you want inflict stun to work. the shock ekement is already the least resisted element in the entire game, if you really think that something targeting shock really needs more ability to succeed than that, i dunno what to tell you man.

    #219123

    ExNihil
    Member

    “use support units as a counter” is something that is possible now that they have 8 res. back when they had 9 res, supports were less of a “counter” and more of a, well,

    What exactly do you want? It takes precisely two BL supports to take out a phantasm warrior in a single round and some supports have extra damage buffs, i.e. elders, forge priests and white witches, and at 8 resistance these can take out at BL a BL PW in one round with a single critical roll, or for elders even without. This is a slow moving unit that is relatively difficult to amass in comparison to supports, why make it squishier?

    On the other hand if some other parts of the Sorcerer’s summoning get buffed this is a non-issue for me.

    From reading everything, it seems a bigger issue is Summon Fantastic Creature being too weak that the PW. I guess maybe a tweak for the Node Serpent as well? ATM he seems to be on par with the Phalanx, when he should be on par with the warbreed.

    Ha YES!

    Indeed, Summon Fantastic creature needs some serious attention. Watcher is a good unit, but wyverns are expensive cannon fodder. I agree with whomever wrote here that some dwellings in general need some attention so this one could probably go hand in hand with that. Anyhow, I suggest increasing the HP as you proposed, making them equal to t2 cavalry, alongside some upgrade to their defense and base attack. Also, they have only a single ability at GM and nothing at BM, perhaps something could be added there. I for one would love to have coup-de-grace, to synergize with inflict stun, which would make these units very nice indeed in a combo. Another idea – perhaps this is overreaching but its worth a try 🙂 – is to give these units minor dragon breath at gold medal, by which I mean a much reduced AoE attack with substantially lower damage of the same kind dragons have. Also, why no Golden Wyvern? Gryphon is very problematic here – it is classified as an animal rather than a monster, and although an excellent scout it doesn’t really fit IMO and is susceptible to charm animal.

    For Node Serpent, I eagerly await seeing what you guys come up with :).

    #219125

    NINJEW
    Member

    uh i want a unit that doesn’t require 6 attacks from 3 hexes away to kill

    your “it only takes 2 full rounds of support damage” idea isn’t practical, since those supports need to 1. get up close to the phantasms (which are hanging back as a wall for the sorc’s supports) to deal decent damage and 2. need to get all 3 shots off

    what this translates to is: even with a 2 to 1 support vs phantasm advantage, it still takes several turns to clear out the phantasms, which is kind of devastating when you’re blasting me with a million units that all have inflict stun. being bale to both deal damage and disable a unit for the a turn is an incredibly powerful ability: most supports that have this kinf of ability require it as a gold medal, or as a touch spell. sorc supports get it on every recruit level bozo with a staff. even from 50% range, you can still take units out fo a fight for a turn, and render those units totally helpful to being instantly wiped out by any damage dealer (including your own, multichannel apprentices who have inflict stun in the first place!). even if i do kill your phantasms, meleeing your supports will still get me hit by stuns on their retaliations, making killing sorc supports a difficult prospect even without blockers.

    hence, the blocker for sorcerer needs to have a very clear and exploitable weakness, since sorc ranged damage is so powerful, which it does now. the fun thing about bringing supports to a fight against a sorcerer spamming supports is that as awesome as my supports might be vs your phantasms, they’ll never outgun your stunning supports, so phantasms are still forcing me to devote a large chunk of my army composition to units that are ineffective against the majority of your army.

    #219142

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Now, white witches will not be shut down – because even Necro cannot create both a fire and frost immune combination – it can achieve either fire immune or frost immune armies, not both.

    As far as passive defenses at double immunities go, Embalmed Ghoul Firstborn/Forge Priests with Meteoric Armor and Warm at Night from an Archdruid Hero 🙂
    The Archdruid Hero will need to arrange for his own Frost(+20% more needed)/Fire Immunity(+120% needed), of course.

    Embalmed Ghoul White Witches with Forge Aprons from a Dreadnought Hero, and using Frozen Flames on each other, would be at double immunity. Unlike the above example, though, it requires a turn in combat to setup.

    #219151

    ExNihil
    Member

    As far as passive defenses at double immunities go, Embalmed Ghoul Firstborn/Forge Priests with Meteoric Armor and Warm at Night from an Archdruid Hero
    The Archdruid Hero will need to arrange for his own Frost(+20% more needed)/Fire Immunity(+120% needed), of course.

    Embalmed Ghoul White Witches with Forge Aprons from a Dreadnought Hero, and using Frozen Flames on each other, would be at double immunity. Unlike the above example, though, it requires a turn in combat to setup.

    Fair enough :), I’m enlightened.

    Anyhow @ninjew. In vanilla all races had single channel supports and most could be easly shut down. Goblins got weaken to prevent this, Orcs got dual channel, Halfling got physical, Tigrans and White Witches got dual channel, which leaves Human Priests (who can immunize practically all units against spirit, making human vs. human matchups a bit fucked), Elders and Forge Priests. Why should White Witches be the best option?

    Apprentices and Supports are meant to work together, and in some races this translates to having 50% of your total supports with any ability to hurt the enemy. This is a vanilla meta in EL, and it doesn’t do anything good to the sorcerer’s combo with 3 races. How would my suggestion make Sorcerer – in general, not in the particular case of these 3 races – more powerful? It won’t really, the base chance for stun remains 8 shock resistance roll, which isn’t very high at all, and can be dramatically reduced with a DN army leader and/or with any kind of resistance enhancement, which now appears not only on class abilitiy/spells/army leader perks, but also from MCU upgrades and alignment magic as well.

    #219152

    Bob5
    Member

    I really don’t think the Node Serpent requires much attention, it’s a very good unit. It’s not as bulky as a warbreed, but taking hits is not the job of the Node Serpent, nor the real playing style of Sorc. Node Serpents job is to hit hard on flanks and float everywhere across the battlefield with speed. Fantastic Creature could use a small buff, but nothing major. Maybe just a cost decrease to 100 would already be sufficient.

    #219158

    NINJEW
    Member

    +1 shock on ranged damage is definitely a big deal anywhere, since that’s +2 damage on flank too. such as vs a stunned opponent.

    someone fielding immunities in response to your stuns sounds like an interesting dynamic of unit choice with a few counter plays (such as simply bringing more apprentices) so i don’t particularly feel like there’s a problem here. human priests get a really good heal with strong will and some minor stat buffs, and daze on gold, i think it’s ok that there exists a counter to their ranged damage output.

    #219197

    ExNihil
    Member

    +1 shock on ranged damage is definitely a big deal anywhere, since that’s +2 damage on flank too. such as vs a stunned opponent.

    Gimme a break, this is a very small buff that is easily balanced by an increased spell CP cost, as I proposed – changing Star Blades from 5 to 8 CP or possibly even 10 CP if this includes the full effects of the spell (+1 fire +1 shock +1 frost) on ranged.

    someone fielding immunities in response to your stuns sounds like an interesting dynamic of unit choice with a few counter plays (such as simply bringing more apprentices) so i don’t particularly feel like there’s a problem here. human priests get a really good heal with strong will and some minor stat buffs, and daze on gold, i think it’s ok that there exists a counter to their ranged damage output.

    This is something unpredictable and often completely unplanned. If this was the result of sophisticated strategic thought then that would be one thing, if this is merely the result of picking race x and fighting race y then there is a problem here. The argument that human priests have a minor heal with protection buff which balances the fact their damage can be completely immunized against is not convincing because you get extremely powerful ability packages from other units that cannot be blocked at all. Examples? Brew Brothers have the best heal in the game and a physical attack that cannot be blocked, while ignoring LoS penalties – yes it’s physical, which makes it rather bad against most melee units damage output wise, but because of this it is better against high resistance units (corporeal that is) and it cannot be blocked. WW get a powerful unit buff, inflict chilling (which increases their attack damage when applied), dual channel damage and swimming, whereby Mystics can self heal and shapeshift into a melee damage dealer. OFC Orc priests are less impressive, but they are actually very good units – dual channel damage that is very hard to block, throw curse which is long range and very powerful, high HP, good stats, excellent resistances that increase and two synergy abilities at GM. Goblin Blight Doctors are fucking fantastic now, with Weakening – an ability that has no saving roll against, applying -60% blight vul. -1 def, -1 res and -200 morale, alongside cure disease and 3 blight abilities on medals (+ steal enchantment), having a base damage against a weakened PW for example (with 8 res.) of 16 per attack.

    Draconian Elders in contrast got single damage channel, a draconian specific – very powerful but also fire damage based – unit buff and no healing buff at all. Forge priests got a unit buff that increases only melee damage (iirc) combined with a minor heal and only fire based damage. Except the Draconian elder, which has excellent synergy with the apprentice, both the Dwarven apprentice and the Human apprentice are barebone and have no particular synergy at all, so now you really have to make a choice – have good support units that are cheaper and more useful in most circumstances, or invest in expensive apprentices – dealing less damage and healing only magical origin creatures.

    I really don’t think the Node Serpent requires much attention, it’s a very good unit. It’s not as bulky as a warbreed, but taking hits is not the job of the Node Serpent, nor the real playing style of Sorc. Node Serpents job is to hit hard on flanks and float everywhere across the battlefield with speed. Fantastic Creature could use a small buff, but nothing major. Maybe just a cost decrease to 100 would already be sufficient.

    Reducing the price to 100 CP will have no impact. Sorcerer has +5CP, which means it can 2 turn the following brackets – 70CP / 90CP / 110CP / 130CP, with 35CP / 45CP / 55CP / 65CP and so forth. The option are: Leave it at 110CP, reduce it to 90CP or increase it to 130CP – and push node Serpent to 150CP. If it is reduced to 90CP without a buff to wyverns, the result would still be the summoning of PW instead because you are still in effect investing a lot of mana and getting bad results. If it is kept at 110CP but wyverns are buffed, this will be good because you will have a worthwhile spell. If it is pushed to 130CP the entire spell will need to be changed, so this is a no go.

    As for node serpent – it suffers from the same problem, there is no difference between 110 and 120CP for Sorcerer in terms of production time in most circumstances. I suggest to move it to the 130 or 150CP and buff it in accordance.

    Summons are almost never MCU buffed, and t3 units can be produced with greater ease. The sorcerer advantage of summoning on the go, is curtailed by the ability to summon a single unit at a time in it’s main production channel (it can dual channel, but what it produces is the secondary rather than the primary army.) I would rather produce units slower but have better units, than be forced to choose between a good but slow t3, the small chance of getting a good t3 but probably landing a crap t2s, and the definite chance of getting a mediocre t3.

    #219209

    SikBok
    Keymaster

    We’re about to start a 24-player PBEM tournament, and we’re discussing whether to wait until end of next week in hopes of the new patch going live by then.
    Is this a realistic hope, or is patch ETA likely to be later? If the latter, we might as well start the tournament now.

    I’d advice to start the tournament now. We are considering some additional changes we want to add to this patch, so we might be a while.

    #219348

    NINJEW
    Member

    Gimme a break, this is a very small buff that is easily balanced by an increased spell CP cost, as I proposed – changing Star Blades from 5 to 8 CP or possibly even 10 CP if this includes the full effects of the spell (+1 fire +1 shock +1 frost) on ranged.

    being able to give a ranged unit 3 additional damage channels is not a “small buff.” a unit with that would have, at minimum, +6 damage per flank hit, regardless of ranged penalty or obstruction penalty, which conveniently combos with inflict stun not being affected by ranged penalty or obstruction penalty either. the result would be stupidly powerful, and that ignores that star blades is meant to be a melee buff anyway, for your melee units, so they can take advantage of flanks/destroy stunned opponents. but why would we ever want to encourage sorcerer to use any tactics besides support spam? better continue to buff that strategy, it surely isn’t dominant enough already.

    This is something unpredictable and often completely unplanned. If this was the result of sophisticated strategic thought then that would be one thing, if this is merely the result of picking race x and fighting race y then there is a problem here. The argument that human priests have a minor heal with protection buff which balances the fact their damage can be completely immunized against is not convincing because you get extremely powerful ability packages from other units that cannot be blocked at all. Examples? Brew Brothers have the best heal in the game and a physical attack that cannot be blocked, while ignoring LoS penalties – yes it’s physical, which makes it rather bad against most melee units damage output wise, but because of this it is better against high resistance units (corporeal that is) and it cannot be blocked.

    doesn’t the brew brother attack also have a range of 3 and is kind of total garbage

    WW get a powerful unit buff, inflict chilling (which increases their attack damage when applied), dual channel damage and swimming

    they also don’t get the sustain of a heal, nor do they get daze on gold, nor can they make a unit immune to mind control

    whereby Mystics can self heal and shapeshift into a melee damage dealer

    in exchange they can’t heal the units around them and can’t apply any buffs to the units around them

    OFC Orc priests are less impressive, but they are actually very good units – dual channel damage that is very hard to block, throw curse which is long range and very powerful, high HP, good stats, excellent resistances that increase and two synergy abilities at GM

    yes they are offensively oriented, and in exchange they can’t match the sustain given by the human priest, nor counter mind control or spirit damage. it’s a pretty even balance.

    Goblin Blight Doctors are fucking fantastic now, with Weakening – an ability that has no saving roll against, applying -60% blight vul. -1 def, -1 res and -200 morale, alongside cure disease and 3 blight abilities on medals (+ steal enchantment), having a base damage against a weakened PW for example (with 8 res.) of 16 per attack.

    yeah but, again, they aren’t getting a heal out of that, nor anything that can defensively improve their fellow units, nor do they get a disabling ability on gold

    i’m not going to continue going down this list of supports. i’m not sure what your point is. human priests are intentionally given what is arguably the most powerful defensive racial buff, and in exchange they use a damage channel that can be easily shut down. they’re still useful offensively, their damage and range isn’t garbage like brew brothers and they get daze on gold, but their offensive use is easily countered. demanding that sorcerer be given a way of circumventing that weakness because you can’t live with having slightly fewer stuns is silly (especially when apprentices already give you plenty of stunning potential). being able to stack daze and stun on a gold medal priest is very powerful, especially when you also factor in the sustain power given by iron heart, so a proper counter existing to that is good and doesn’t need to be changed just because you feel like you need the ability to remove your opponent’s units from play, but can’t stand the thought of your opponent rendering your own units useless in turn.

    yeah, not being able to use your priests effectively? sucks doesn’t it. but i guess it’s absolutely necessary that your own units HAVE to be able to inflict that same fate on your opponent’s units consistently (and also gain a massive damage boost too because why not, sorc obviously needs its supports to be even more powerful).

    like the irony of this is killing me, the ability you’re so desperate to apply is literally a disable, and you’re complaining about your opponent being able to limit your tactical options, under some circumstances where your opponent might just happen to have access to a full immunity that also just so happens to be the same element as what your support uses. and just swapping to including more apprentices than priests isn’t sufficient enough of an answer to that.

    #219432

    SiaFu
    Member

    Hi,

  • Necromancer players will now almost always be offered a necromancer hero in the first round.
  • Please make this an option like “Allow only heroes of the same Race”.

    I actually prefer a Theocrad or Archruid for my first hero as they can heal my Leader until he gets to level 3 and could control some Deathbringers so they could Ghoul some Evangelists (see- the alternative’s not that easy). Devouring corpses is less efficient than Heal.

    Going all-undead isn’t so peachy until you get Healers of the Dead and Harbingers of Death and a Theocrat has an added bonus of Divine Justicars (while Necromancers can only Reanimate one T2 and one other undead). And an Archdruid will get Regrowth even while being an undead Lich.

    For Hybrid Necro play, this is more of a nerf than a bonus.

    In the meantime, I guess I’ll just have to reroll some more random maps when 1.607 actually rolls out for GOG.

    #219469

    ExNihil
    Member

    being able to give a ranged unit 3 additional damage channels is not a “small buff.” a unit with that would have, at minimum, +6 damage per flank hit, regardless of ranged penalty or obstruction penalty, which conveniently combos with inflict stun not being affected by ranged penalty or obstruction penalty either. the result would be stupidly powerful, and that ignores that star blades is meant to be a melee buff anyway, for your melee units, so they can take advantage of flanks/destroy stunned opponents. but why would we ever want to encourage sorcerer to use any tactics besides support spam? better continue to buff that strategy, it surely isn’t dominant enough already.

    Flank damage suffers from damage reduction like all damage.

    It is a minor buff since I proposed the inclusion of +1 shock on ranged for a price increase of 60%, translating to a maximum of +2 per flank attack, or +6 damage across x3 attacks at optimal range. Compare the prices of other unit buff spells and this is a huge price increase. For the full package I proposed a 100% price increase, which translates to a smaller number of possible castings.

    I suggest you try playing a bit of Sorcerer to see how often you can get 10 or lower % for a chance to inflict stun when fighting mid-game or later leveled opponents with some good supports/army leaders/magic in place. Considering that your squishy supports need to get close to be effective to begin with, and do so while phasing and with x1 attack after that, the result can often be the loss of a significant amount of forces. Which with immunity just becomes ridiculous.

    doesn’t the brew brother attack also have a range of 3 and is kind of total garbage

    It is, but for the purposes of being shut-down it is the best there is. No opponent is 100% physical resistant without some intricate combinations to get there (WL army leader with toughness, Sphere of protection on incorporeal etc.).

    i’m not going to continue going down this list of supports. i’m not sure what your point is. human priests are intentionally given what is arguably the most powerful defensive racial buff, and in exchange they use a damage channel that can be easily shut down. they’re still useful offensively, their damage and range isn’t garbage like brew brothers and they get daze on gold, but their offensive use is easily countered. demanding that sorcerer be given a way of circumventing that weakness because you can’t live with having slightly fewer stuns is silly (especially when apprentices already give you plenty of stunning potential). being able to stack daze and stun on a gold medal priest is very powerful, especially when you also factor in the sustain power given by iron heart, so a proper counter existing to that is good and doesn’t need to be changed just because you feel like you need the ability to remove your opponent’s units from play, but can’t stand the thought of your opponent rendering your own units useless in turn.

    You can continue or not as you like, your argument simply doesn’t hold. The sustain buffs were a vanilla meta, as I wrote earlier. Since then all vanilla races except HE have received sustain buffing abilities that did not exist earlier (e.g. Wetland Foraging, Victory Rush etc.) to balance out the sustain buffing on the supports (two supports in vanilla). Furthermore, their support units have undergone a rather radical revision and upgrading. Furthermore, this simply doesn’t apply to Draconians, which have no sustain buffing tech at all and only a combat upgrading buff, so what is the justificaiton here in your view?

    Giving Sorcerer an option to bypass this using magic that can (a) be dispelled, (b) requires research (often), (c) costs CP that you can use elsewhere if available and (d) is casted on a single unit at a time would be a good addition to the game and to Sorcerer. This class does not have the unit repertoire of the other classes that use supports extensively (Theocrat primarily, but also Necro), and the use of support units here is not as supports at all but rather as assault forces.

    I have played hundreds of hours as Sorcerer and have in fact been in multiple situations in which my supports have been shut down. In vanilla and due to the (then) unique synergy of Draconians with Sorcerer this was acceptable – and anyhow your apprentices couldn’t be shutdown, but since we are no longer in Vanilla and there are other excellent synergies around to play with, I think this requires changing.

    Unless you have an argument that is ultimately not reducible to “I disagree with you because sorcerer is OP or extremely strong” I see no point in continuing this back and forth really.

    #219493

    NINJEW
    Member

    Please make this an option like “Allow only heroes of the same Race”.

    I actually prefer a Theocrad or Archruid for my first hero as they can heal my Leader until he gets to level 3 and could control some Deathbringers so they could Ghoul some Evangelists (see- the alternative’s not that easy). Devouring corpses is less efficient than Heal.

    Going all-undead isn’t so peachy until you get Healers of the Dead and Harbingers of Death and a Theocrat has an added bonus of Divine Justicars (while Necromancers can only Reanimate one T2 and one other undead). And an Archdruid will get Regrowth even while being an undead Lich.

    For Hybrid Necro play, this is more of a nerf than a bonus.

    In the meantime, I guess I’ll just have to reroll some more random maps when 1.607 actually rolls out for GOG.

    just hit “i want another hero” turn 1 and i’m pretty sure you’ll be good to go

    It is a minor buff since I proposed the inclusion of +1 shock on ranged for a price increase of 60%, translating to a maximum of +2 per flank attack, or +6 damage across x3 attacks at optimal range. Compare the prices of other unit buff spells and this is a huge price increase. For the full package I proposed a 100% price increase, which translates to a smaller number of possible castings.

    actually it’s a major buff. the strength of a buff is not going to be dependent on the straight numbers of the cost/benefit, but actually it’ll be dependent on the ability of a class to utilize that buff. sorcerer, for example, more or less specializes in being able to stun its opponents, giving it a much greater access to the possibility of flank attacks than anyone. therefore, buffs that improve the power of flank attacks (such as additional damage channels), especially buffs that improve ranged damage flanking on a class that uses a large number of ranged units, should be carefully considered, as the ramifications are a bit greater than the simple “adds 3 channels, so i guess increase the price a bit to make it balanced” view will reveal.

    I suggest you try playing a bit of Sorcerer to see how often you can get 10 or lower % for a chance to inflict stun when fighting mid-game or later leveled opponents with some good supports/army leaders/magic in place. Considering that your squishy supports need to get close to be effective to begin with, and do so while phasing and with x1 attack after that, the result can often be the loss of a significant amount of forces. Which with immunity just becomes ridiculous.

    i have played sorcerer a few times. a few times recently, even. every time i won games that i really had no business winning after my severe mismanagement of my early game (once coasting off the power of stuns and being able to get them through crusader-res, another time because phantasms are dumb and my opponent went dreadnought. i actually did not fight him in pvp a single time using any unit other than phantasms, though there’s some additional factors beyond sorc there)

    for some math: 10% chance of stun, on a triple attack, results in 27% chance of stun (someone check my math, i don’t believe i ever was actually formally taught how chance multiplication works. it should be .9 x .9 x .9 right? = .729 = 73% chance of resisting stun = 27% chance of stun being inflicted), which really isn’t bad at all for a single unit attempting to render a powerful unit totally helpless and useless for a turn. so i don’t see why immunities being stacked on top of that is really an issue, since your chances sans immunity are pretty decent even against high res units. seems like having options to counter racial support spam might be useful, and not overpowered since, again, you can always just bring apprentices instead to get around that (while your opponent is limiting themselves to whatever units give that immunity)

    The sustain buffs were a vanilla meta, as I wrote earlier. Since then all vanilla races except HE have received sustain buffing abilities that did not exist earlier (e.g. Wetland Foraging, Victory Rush etc.) to balance out the sustain buffing on the supports (two supports in vanilla). Furthermore, their support units have undergone a rather radical revision and upgrading. Furthermore, this simply doesn’t apply to Draconians, which have no sustain buffing tech at all and only a combat upgrading buff, so what is the justificaiton here in your view?

    the sustain buffs are still miles better for sustain than any of the other racial abilities, it’s just no longer an overpowering advantage. iron heart will still do you more good than fast regen will in most situations, so it’s still a good advantage, which works quite well when coupled with the priest’s relatively powerful (but easily countered) offensive power.

    as for draconians, are you kidding me? my argument there is that draconian supports are all out offensive and can deal insane damage when their element works, and fire immunity is less common than spirit immunity so they don’t get their offensive power shut down as easily either. before you continue with this, ask yourself: “do i really want to be on the side of this discussion that is suggesting that draconian sorcerer isn’t good? is that a good position to be arguing from?”

    Giving Sorcerer an option to bypass this using magic that can (a) be dispelled, (b) requires research (often), (c) costs CP that you can use elsewhere if available and (d) is casted on a single unit at a time would be a good addition to the game and to Sorcerer.

    a) dispel still costs 10cp (that is, an equivalent amount as what it costs you to cast starblades in the first place, after your proposed price increase) and has a 50% chance of failure. so, uh, good counter? unless you want me to bring my bronze medal supports into 3hex range of your stunners, which sounds like a great plan that couldn’t possibly end poorly

    b) 50 RP cost for the class that gets a massive research boost and has all of its techs way cheaper than everyone else. obviously a massive investment that isn’t trivial at all

    C) it’s 10CP after cost increase, that’s not exactly breaking the bank

    D) “casted on a single unit” sure doesn’t stop Seeker from being ridiculously powerful

    as for being a good addition to the game and to sorcerer, well,

    but why would we ever want to encourage sorcerer to use any tactics besides support spam? better continue to buff that strategy, it surely isn’t dominant enough already.

    This class does not have the unit repertoire of the other classes that use supports extensively (Theocrat primarily, but also Necro), and the use of support units here is not as supports at all but rather as assault forces.

    which it is extremely good at already, and in the edge cases where racials get countered it has a tool that is available very early that guarantees a stun chance (again, apprentices)

    I have played hundreds of hours as Sorcerer and have in fact been in multiple situations in which my supports have been shut down. In vanilla and due to the (then) unique synergy of Draconians with Sorcerer this was acceptable – and anyhow your apprentices couldn’t be shutdown, but since we are no longer in Vanilla and there are other excellent synergies around to play with, I think this requires changing.

    wow i wonder if this ancient and archaic strategy still holds value

    if you want synergies, you already get inflict shocking on your melee summons (phantasms and node serpents and any melee troop you cast starblades, the sorcerer melee buff, on). this is there to encourage use of units besides a million supports, and to encourage the sorcerer to actually, you know, engage in melee combat every once in a while. it’s a synergy between mixed unit types, which is more desirable than synergy between a unit and also itself (just ask zaskow! he harps on this plenty often with prowlers getting inflict bleeding and also bloodthirsty), because it further encourages mixed unit armies and more diverse strategies, as opposed to “spam supports forever to win.”

    Unless you have an argument that is ultimately not reducible to “I disagree with you because sorcerer is OP or extremely strong” I see no point in continuing this back and forth really.

    i don’t see how that’s a bad argument when you’re asking to make sorcerer even stronger. maybe you could suggest some kind of sorcerer nerf in exchange, if your desire isn’t to make sorc more powerful.

    #219552

    ExNihil
    Member

    Actually Sorcerer is a mostly melee based class, the only ranged unit it uses are supports, and that is the equivalent of a t3 in terms of research. The inflict shocking synergy doesn’t work with shut down damage channels since stun doesn’t roll then, and it requires the casting if star blades or a unit that has inflict shocking, which means Node Serpent or PW first, both of which are melee only. As I wrote earlier, it would be enough if Star Blades allowed inflict stun to roll even with a shut down damage channel, but that might be technically difficult.

    As for stunning chance – you are multiplying fine, except the part in which an attack after phase triggers x1. Regarding the buff and CP price, I already wrote my opinion and will let the devs decide what’s what.

    An alternative would be to modify the supports themselvs, but that is both more tricky and will affect other classes directly (not necessarily a bad thing).

    #219568

    NINJEW
    Member

    Actually Sorcerer is a mostly melee based class, the only ranged unit it uses are supports

    that would be true if supports didn’t make up >half of a sorcerer’s armed forces

    and that is the equivalent of a t3 in terms of research

    good thing sorc has that research buff then

    The inflict shocking synergy doesn’t work with shut down damage channels since stun doesn’t roll then, and it requires the casting if star blades or a unit that has inflict shocking, which means Node Serpent or PW first, both of which are melee only.

    sounds like a good tactical dynamic, this whole “use melee units to inflict shocking and apprentices if immunities are ruining your day” deal. all looks well here

    As for stunning chance – you are multiplying fine, except the part in which an attack after phase triggers x1.

    good thing you don’t need to phase to hit someone from 6 hexes away and not get your inflict chance modified by the ranged penalty

    otherwise it’s almost like phasing directly into an enemy formation that includes t3s with high res might actually be a bad idea. that’s probably something that should be fixed.

    An alternative would be to modify the supports themselvs, but that is both more tricky and will affect other classes directly (not necessarily a bad thing).

    why would you want to modify the supports and what modifications would you make

    #219575

    ExNihil
    Member

    Maximum range is 5 hexes without a wall my dear. Damage is halved above 3 hexes, so for full damage you need to attack 3 hexes or below. If there is a wall involved you must phase in. If your opponent is far you must phase in. If you want to deal significant damage you need to get close, and that is without factoring in any kind of elemental resistances (not immunities,) which drastically decrease it.

    Without Stun supports are poor assault troops period, they damage to most t2 and t3 units is not very high, t4 units can usually shake it off.

    I suggest you actually play sorcerer a bit more. It seems to me you have little experience actually using Sorcerer supports against a variety of opponents or otherwise your impression would have been less one dimensional. The inflict shocking synergy on melee units is rather crappy – it is first and foremost a damage increasing buff for the said melee units themselves.

    Apprentices are not a very desirable unit – they deal crap damage to anything with 10+ resistance due to their low damage divided into three channels. They have ok buffs, and only when levelled to gold do they offer something you can’t get out of most racial supports (floating). Furthermore, they only rarely synergize (Draconian Apprentices synergize, but only with Draconian Elders, and Frostling apprentices synergize, with many frostling units).

    Finally, this is not an alternative to closed damage channels par se, this is a different unit, it is no solution to racial supports, and if you want to include these in any substantial numbers, which you need to do if you are playing draconians, humans or Dwarves, you can be easily screwed. Since this is in fact a major element of the Sorcerer fighting force, I find it necessary to have a workaround available for this class. As I find it necessary for Theo to have a workaround machine immunities for its spirit channel ineffectiveness, and perhaps for Necro to have its own workaround to the blight/spirit immunity of machines (and other creatures?). Finally, if this was Vanilla and you only had Draconians for top notch synergy with Sorcerer I wouldn’t be proposing this, but this is EL, and you have Frostlings with a superior synergy that cannot be shut down, and which has multiple unit synergies within it (inflict chilling, inflict frostbite, inflict freezing cold, on top of which you can add inflict shocking through star blades and inflict stun through school of enchantment.)

    #219582

    NINJEW
    Member

    If there is a wall involved you must phase in. If your opponent is far you must phase in. If you want to deal significant damage you need to get close, and that is without factoring in any kind of elemental resistances (not immunities,) which drastically decrease it.

    none of those things involve inflict stun, which you are specifically wanting to proc. you even suggested making star blades only give +1 shock damage, so you can get the inflict stun proc off even without dealing damage.

    hell, i can see just from when we fought that you spent most of the battle hanging back with your priests trying to fish for stun procs on my non-iron-heart’d units, so i don’t think that this idea that damage is particularly important when you could have a higher chance for stun instead is really even something that actually exists.

    Apprentices are not a very desirable unit – they deal crap damage to anything with 10+ resistance due to their low damage divided into three channels. They have ok buffs, and only when levelled to gold do they offer something you can’t get out of most racial supports (floating). Furthermore, they only rarely synergize (Draconian Apprentices synergize, but only with Draconian Elders, and Frostling apprentices synergize, with many frostling units).

    yeah, but on a stunned opponent they deal +6 damage per hit, and their many damage channels ensure that they can always get their stun chances in.

    Finally, this is not an alternative to closed damage channels par se, this is a different unit, it is no solution to racial supports, and if you want to include these in any substantial numbers, which you need to do if you are playing draconians, humans or Dwarves, you can be easily screwed.

    it’s not a solution to racial supports because making your entire army out of a single unit and then being surprised when your enemy shows up with an immunity to that one unit’s single damage element is kind of silly, as is complaining about how unfair it is that your overreliance on a single element led to you being fairly impotent in the face of an immunity to the element. had you, say, had a proper mixed army composition that didn’t rely on a single element, you might’ve found that you did, in fact, have an alternative to the one damage channel your opponent managed to eliminate.

    to the point: in the battle in question, i won because despite both of us having access to bestow iron heart and both of us fielding priests as our primary source of damage, i had: 1. a single hero with a bow and arrow and 2. some cavalry with pistols. so, when you choose to hang back and get engages in a ranged war with me, i of course won, because i didn’t put all my eggs in one basket (which was a deliberate decision that you made, and could have avoided).

    this whole proposal is similar to asking for horse buffs against pikes because you brought a bunch of knights and found that your opponent had made a bunch of butchers. no, in that situation you do not have an anti-pike tool, what a fascinating outcome of choosing to only bring along units that are weak to pikes. the solution is not “i should be able to cast a spell that gives all my horses overwhelm,” the solution is “next time i’ll bring some infantry.” similarly, the solution to fielding a priestheavy army against another priest heavy army isn’t “i should be able to give my priests a way to circumvent strong will,” but “next time i’ll bring some apprentices.”

    Finally, if this was Vanilla and you only had Draconians for top notch synergy with Sorcerer I wouldn’t be proposing this, but this is EL, and you have Frostlings with a superior synergy that cannot be shut down, and which has multiple unit synergies within it (inflict chilling, inflict frostbite, inflict freezing cold, on top of which you can add inflict shocking through star blades, and inflict shocking through school of enchantment.)

    do you think that frostling sorc needs a nerf or that draconian sorcerer should be buffed because it’s sad that the lizards aren’t top dog anymore

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