Wall Climbing, any use for it?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Wall Climbing, any use for it?

This topic contains 30 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by  Seamus the Bold 6 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #161879

    Really, am I missing something there? Because now in AOW3 using wall climbing seems like a death sentence: you’re stuck on a wall for one turn, can be easily blocked by enemy unit, and those penalties that units suffer on walls are just terrible! I once had my full-health Firstborn killed in one turn by a mere T1 infantry while standing on a wall. I stopped using it WC completely, and usually stick to phasing flying as far as bypassing walls goes. You can,of course, climb somewhere out of enemy reach, but that usually means fight will be over by the time your unit gets to enemies.
    So, is WC ever any good? I’d say it needs a buff, maybe still be vulnerable while standing on walls but not to lose all movement for climbing, just don’t end your turn on a wall hex. Sort of how it used to be in AOW:SM.

    #161885

    Prodigal Sun
    Member

    I would say it is situational. I play Rogue a lot and if I am having a lot of horsepower and plan on sieging, I gladly invest into Wall Climbing for the whole party. The thing is to know when to use it – it is great to combine with Quick Dash so you will be over the wall in one turn.

    When you’re scaling the wall in front of a unit with a ranged attack you are engaging it usually has to attack you or pull back one step, which means you will get a flanking attack. Doing this may often result in a few casualties but if done well you can overwhelm your enemy.

    #161886

    Stormwind
    Member

    I think you must be missing something, just not sure what. Maybe its a playstyle thing. I have certainly lost battles defensively that I would have won if my opponent did not have wall climbing, and vice-versa.

    #161888

    Socratatus
    Member

    Well wall climbing should be deadly as it was historically. You often need 2\3rds more men than the besieged to take a castle this way. Sure, do it if you have enough units and don`t mind losing them, but getting proper siege units or units that can fly over is always better. I often only send units up a wall as a diversion, to split the enemy defenders.

    #161896

    ninninnin
    Member

    i hope more units get advanced wall climbing and pass wall in the expansion. of all things you would think enormous spiders wouldnt be that hindered by walls.
    i also have to wonder why units with pass wall or flying cant sit on wall spaces.

    #161897

    Charlatan
    Member

    You’re surely missing something indeed, I’ve only recently been hit with the blunt force that walls can represent myself.

    Pathetically lost a “Very Probable Victory” because the AI acted unexpectedly smart, had a Flowrock Citadel and my only anti-wall capability was 1 Hero with Wall Climb and 1 Hero with a flying mount.

    #161898

    llfoso
    Member

    It is really situational. I usually have units climb the walls when they’re out of reach of enemy units. I do hope they reduce the penalty a bit though because it seems a little over the top right now (realism aside) and it makes this new advanced wall climbing seem downright op.

    #161911

    Fenraellis
    Member

    I once had my full-health Firstborn killed in one turn by a mere T1 infantry while standing on a wall.

    …there were definitely some mitigating circumstances involved. A T1 swordsman doesn’t even have enough raw damage to 1-turn kill a Firstborn with the Defense penalty of Wall Climbing. Maybe an Overwhelm Infantry with a Critical roll… but I’m honestly not even sure about then.

    #161912

    Jaduggar
    Member

    First of all, Wall Climbing is best used alongside other tactics. Send a flyer or a phase unit over the wall first, and then put the ladders to it. Your infiltrators will keep the defenders back, or at least get a good hit in if they turn on your climbers. Or you can Wall Climb to the left, while you Wall Crush to the right… they cant win both, and if they try to split they will usually win neither.

    Another thing, is that climbers make great distractions while your cavalry charge the gates. If they focus the cavalry, then your infantry are gonna get over, and if they focus your infantry, your cavalry will get the gates. This works best of course, when you split the infantry and go to either side when your cavalry go right down the center. Or vice versa… send all your infantry at the two prongs near the front, while your cavalry go wide to the outer gates (they can handle the distance, usually).

    A final way I like to use Wall climbing, is to get all of my climbers into a second stack, supporting my first one. That way, they start the battle off to one side, or the other, and arent near the archers… if they wanna get down on your ladders, they have to run a bit out of their way to do it… and thats going to cost them the main gates. But if they ignore them entirely, then youll come around for the flank after a half dozen turns or so.

    #161933

    alf978
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Imissleprechauns wrote:</div>
    I once had my full-health Firstborn killed in one turn by a mere T1 infantry while standing on a wall.

    …there were definitely some mitigating circumstances involved. A T1 swordsman doesn’t even have enough raw damage to 1-turn kill a Firstborn with the Defense penalty of Wall Climbing. Maybe an Overwhelm Infantry with a Critical roll… but I’m honestly not even sure about then.

    And Overwhelm wouldn’t have helped much either, since Firstborns do not carry shields or polearms. But I’m with you, the FB may have been Weakened and some archers got some flanking hits in before the T1 finished the job? Something must have been buffed or de-buffed along the way… Curious!

    #161935

    ninninnin
    Member

    And Overwhelm wouldn’t have helped much either, since Firstborns do not carry shields or polearms.

    his point is overwhelm infantry typically have higher attack than sword and shield infantry.

    #161948

    Gloweye
    Member

    Basically, IMO the best use of wall climbing is A) in numbers or B) supported by flyers. Typically, use shielded infantry, since they don’t die as fast. Crusaders are best, and ranged units aren’t bad to have behind them either, as they’ll often draw fire from hostile archers.

    However, you need to spread it so wide the defender can’t stop them all, and those who get over can flank the units that engaged your other climbers, freeing them up, etc. etc.

    However, it tends to go obsolete when you get pass wall/flying/wall crushing units in sufficient numbers.

    #161963

    Jaduggar
    Member

    However, it tends to go obsolete when you get pass wall/flying/wall crushing units in sufficient numbers.

    Actually, I find it grows more useful the greater number of units you have that can get over the wall on their own. Those units can then protect the wall climbers, or distract from them. Basically, Wall Climbing can be almost as good as Pass Wall… provided nobody hits you on that one turn you are passing over. The more other units you have to distract from it, the greater the chances that the wall will become nothing more than a 1 turn speedbump.

    I actually shy away from Wall climbing too much in the early game, but then start throwing it into my larger armies more and more as the game progresses. In the early game, I try to favor gimmicky stacks to get over walls… Goblin Darters, Unicorn Riders, Phantom Warriors, etc etc. Once my flyers and crushers get on the field in nice supply, I start to support them with climbers. They can be made cheap, and as long as they have some cover, can get over the wall without a hitch.

    #161995

    ninninnin
    Member

    it is a death sentence. wall climbing is horrible and only good to give the enemy more things to deal with than they can handle as soon as possible, this is super important though because the enemy has a cover bonus and some sort of defending building maybe. you dont have these luxuries as the attacker so sometimes balls to the wall offense is the least costly option.
    if an infantry dies climbing a wall its done its job as long as it absorbed some ranged damage or got some hits in while the same thing happens elsewhere preferably unobstructed. such is the duty of infantry, very sad. hopefully the death wasnt a huge waste and it enabled you to get an advantage to work with elsewhere in the battle.
    jaduggar explains the same idea, all those phasers and floaters are doing the same job. its just one more avenue of attack to throw on their plate. meanwhile the rest of your army is working on those doors. how you do that is up to you and what units you have.

    avoid using heavy infantry as cannon fodder unless its crucial to your strategy or safe.theyre more vulnerable than just losing that 2 defense because they dont go into defensive mode for that turn which is where most of their toughness comes from. of course its probably never going to be safe, do what you have to do in a pinch.

    #162006

    I wish my musketeers can climb walls 🙁

    #162017

    Astraflame
    Member

    I wish knights had wall climb by default (screw balance :D)nothing better than a stack and rogue hero.

    #162021

    Astraflame
    Member

    Yep wall climb isn’t flying or float or pass wall, it is usefu but not a solid siege option like those mentioned, i think it is fine the way it is providing infantry and heavy shock troops with a light siege option.

    #162034

    What’s the question?
    Is it better to fly? YES
    Is it better than nothing? also YES
    Should it be as good as Flying? NO

    Maybe it’s me, I just don’t see the point of this discussion.

    #162039

    Wall climbing is really powerful and will take much of a defender’s advantage away if used properly. Like backstab or a myriad of other skills, though, you have to actually play with it in mind to get good use out of it.

    #162042

    WC’s useful, you just need to be careful with it. Like others mentioned it works best in conjunction with other means of bypassing the wall. Units that you can fly or phase over and put in guard mode to distract the defenders.

    It even works nicely with sabotage. Make one breach, rush in a few units to engage the defenders and then send in the wall climbers.

    One nice thing to do is to use a flyer/phaser/etc. to block off those curved wall protrusions because then melee defenders can’t reach the wall hexes behind it and climbing them becomes much safer.

    #162057

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    [evil grin] Or you could always just… sacrifice a Martyr for the cause. [/evil grin]

    #162068

    thabob79
    Member

    [evil grin] Or you could always just… sacrifice a Martyr for the cause. [/evil grin]

    Operation decoy!

    #162082

    quo
    Member

    IIRC it was more useful in previous games. It’s still somewhat useful against the AI, although the Wall Climbing penalty is rough.

    One unit WC is not bad on is Theocrat Crusaders. You get them early, they are pretty sturdy, and Theos can buff them enough that they can overcome the downsides as long as they don’t get focus fired. A stack of 6 Crusaders should be able to use it to take almost any gray AI city.

    #162085

    jb
    Member

    I love wall climbing. I use it a lot. The trick, in my opinion, is to use them in groups of three. A single unit wall climbing is not as useful as three units at once.

    Of course, each situation is unique and I tend to use a lot of infantry.

    #162098

    WC goes great with spells like Moving Target or Sphere of Protection and to a lesser extent Bless, Stoneskin, etc.

    Theocrats have the further advantage of being able to heal units on walls.

    In any case there’s all sorts of ways to make it work.

    #162114

    Ericridge
    Member

    Swarm the wall with numbers. Don’t send in a single unit.

    If you directly climb the walls at where archers is, archers become engaged in melee and must eat one attack of opportunity to get away unless defender can change climber’s facing.

    #162128

    UltraDD
    Member

    I’d rather just build a siege engine over infantry. Most of them die in 2 archer attacks and if the wall is guarded by something dangerous (Read : Any support \ elven archers) infantry are just a waste of gold and upkeep in sieges, oh they also slow you down on the strategic map.

    Also historically they just stayed around the city -SIEGE- and either waited until the defenders got worn out, had a clear ninja path they could use or the defenders surrender\starve to death. Not charge head first into walls without even carrying shields. Or cheesed it down with a trubuchet\cannon (Like I have to do all the time wasting 5-10 turns just because my engineer got nuked, still better than losing 300% more units.

    Well I don’t really care how salty this is. If walls get buffed again I’d rather stop playing the game all together (Even if the whole rest of the patch is amazing). The game already favors races with archers and fliers. And walls are probably the most cost-effective thing in the entire game.

    #162136

    ninninnin
    Member

    I wish knights had wall climb by default (screw balance :D )nothing better than a stack and rogue hero.

    ladders are for HORSES

    #162147

    Ericridge
    Member

    Well I don’t really care how salty this is. If walls get buffed again I’d rather stop playing the game all together (Even if the whole rest of the patch is amazing). The game already favors races with archers and fliers. And walls are probably the most cost-effective thing in the entire game.

    You might be excited for upcoming expansion because walls that gets damaged will stay damaged until end of turn. Tombles posted few days ago that its finally working correctly now.

    #162150

    Jaduggar
    Member

    Wall Climbing… HUH!!… (Good God, Yall) What is good for?

    Thats what you shouldve named this thread.

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