[FOLLOWED] WARLORD Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions [FOLLOWED] WARLORD Balance Discussion

This topic contains 375 replies, has 42 voices, and was last updated by  Mourioche 6 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #118331

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hi Guys,

    Time for thread #6 in the Classes threads, which will bring to an end this series of postings :). I invite all of you to participate.

    Race Threads:

    ORC Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/orc-balance-discussion/

    GOBLIN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/goblin-balance-discussion/

    HUMAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/human-balance-discussion/

    HIGH-ELF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/high-elf-balance-discussion/

    DRACONIAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/draconian-balance-discussion/

    DWARF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwarf-balance-discussion/

    Class Threads:

    ROGUE Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rogue-balance-discussion/

    SORCERER Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/sorcerer-balance-discussion/

    THEOCRAT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/theocrat-balance-discussion/

    DREADNOUGHT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dreadnought-balance-discussion/

    ARCHDRUID Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/archdruid-balance-discussion/

    WARLORD Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/warlord-balance-discussion/

    Topical Threads:

    Random Map Generator, Underground and Map Elements Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rmg-ug-and-map-elements-balance-discussion/

    Blight, Spirit, Machines and Theocrat: Some Community Questions: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/blight-spirit-machines-and-theo-some-community-questions/

    Dwellings, Taverns and Bandits!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwellings-taverns-and-bandits/

    AI and Auto-Combat Balance Discussion (SP and MP): http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/auto-combat-balance-discussion/

    Support Units Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/support-units-balance-discussion/

    Leader/Heroes Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/leaderheroes-balance-discussion/

    Heal and Sustain Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/the-heal-or-sustain-issue/

    Assorted Topics Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/asorted-topics-balance-discussion/

    Misc. Threads:
    Ballista!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/ballista/ (<– This is a unit suggestion rather than a balance discussion)

    And of course the original monster:

    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rebalance-of-existing-elements-in-next-patch/

    #118333

    ExNihil
    Member

    The Warlord’s Concept:

    “Warlords rule by the Law of the Sword, establishing a chain of command based on battlefield glory. Their armies consist of highly specialized, mobile troops and powerful beasts. Warlords are master tacticians, and often legendary warriors unto themselves. Though they tend to trust the power of their hardened armies over supernatural forces, Warlords have mastered arcane skills that strengthen their armies.”

    Class Specific Technologies:

    Unit Summoning and Production: Raise Militia (60RP / Summon Spell) –> Produce Berserker (60RP) –> Produce Monster Hunter (120RP) –> Produce Mounted Archer (200RP) –> Produce Phalanx (400RP) -> Produce Warbreed (800RP) -> Produce Manticore-Rider (1200RP)

    Unit Upgrade Techs: Garrison’s Honor (180RP / Passive Upgrade), Conqueror (350RP / Passive Upgrade), Martial Arts Training (800RP / Passive Upgrade), The Draft (400RP / Spell), Hero Slaying (400RP), Thoroughbred Mounts (700RP / Passive Upgrade), Conqueror’s Feast (800RP / Spell), Global Assault (2500RP)

    Empire Upgrades: Training Regimen (80RP / Passive Upgrade), War Effort (140RP / Passive Upgrade), Inspire Loyalty (220RP / Spell)

    City Upgrades: Authority of the Sword (60RP)

    Combat Spells: Last Stand (70RP), Lion’s Courage (80RP), Shout of Intimidation (140RP), Berserk (140RP), Phoenix Warrior (180RP), Steadfast Ward (280RP), Killing Spree (350RP), Bloodbath (800RP), Relentless Army (1200RP),

    Strategic and Offensive Enchantments: Dread Siege (120RP), Death March (140RP),

    Current Issues:

    OK, I’ll try to keep this post short. I can divide it into points, but I don’t think there is a need for this here. There are many issues with the Warlord and I know some of them have been dealt with by the Devs – the lack of a scout has apparently been addressed in some manner. The Warbreed will receive some sort of buff that will make it more attractive. And perhaps also the lack of a nuke spell as well – although for that I have no confirmation.

    Saying this the Warlord is IMO the most IMBA class in the game in a way that makes it extremely weak in most types of MP games. The primary problem is that the entire development of the WL is very research expansive and thus kicks in fairly late in the game. Unless really big maps are used with few players, which hardly ever happens in MP, it has no chance of winning if the players are of equal skills and play aggressively – before the WL can properly get his techs and forces in order he is already completely overwhelmed by the other classes. In very-late game situations, with quite passive players or a lot of early fighting and a WL who avoids war and develops like mad this can look different, but that is just another way of showing how broken it is: After all, according to the concept of the Warlord it should be the most belligerent and warlike class of them all – literally thriving on war. Yet, it really doesn’t. Instead it has a weak beginning and a lame mid and early late-game. And then, if they are not already overwhelmed, which they often are, they take off very dramatically and become in a very short time OP. The worst offender is Global Assault, which even with the current disjunction system simply bumps all units to Gold Medal – this is an overwhelming, and in my opinion very simplistic buff that can really break the game.

    The rebalance of the Warlord should IMO break this scheme of being UP for a long time which is then compensated for by extreme OPness. The Warlord should be war ready from the get go almost and have a much more streamline progress. This means that the Warlord’s tech tree needs to be rebalanced thoroughly and a few of the techs reworked as well. It also means that the late game needs to be nerfed while the rest of needs to be buffed.
    I will make a more through post with my suggestions shortly. For the meanwhile I’d like to invite all of you to point out balancing issues that needs attending to.

    #118700

    ExNihil
    Member

    First off, I wanna thank @ix329 for pointing out some issues that I’m going to discuss.

    Now, let’s get to it ;).
    The Warlord isn’t working, and we should ask why? Prima Facie it should be an exceptionally strong class from relatively early on as it has some powerful empire/city/unit economic boosts that kick in at a relatively early stage. Let’s look at these in a descending order of research cost:

    Authority of the Sword (City Spell, 60RP): Target friendly city receives +1 domain radius.

    Training Regimen (Passive Upgrade, 80RP): 20% discount on archer, cavalry, infantry, pike-men and irregular units

    War Effort: cities generate (Passive Upgrade, 140RP): +10 gold per city

    Inspire Loyalty (Global Spell, 220RP): The caster and their Empire’s Heroes gain Inspire

    Loyalty. All units in the Army of a Hero that has Inspire Loyalty gain Volunteer.

    Conqueror’s Feast (Global Spell, 800RP): All units require -25% maintenance costs outside of the caster’s domain. In addition The ‘Enemy in domain’ and ‘Enemy at the gates’ morale penalties are twice as effective against the caster’s enemies.

    With the exception of Conqueror’s Feast, which costs 800RP and is thus available in the latter mid-game usually, all the other techs can be obtained in the early phases of the game. The Warlord has the largest unit price discount in the game, effecting all of its class units as well as all racial units in the game with 20%, which is what the Dreadnought gets for the Flame-Tank in the late stages of the game with Mana Fuel Factory; War Effort in turn is not amazing in comparison to the bonus the Dreadnought receives, but it does increase the WL’s income – if he conquers a lot of cities; This though is seriously buffed by Inspire Loyalty, which dramatically decreases the maintenance costs – if Garrison’s are kept small. Finally there is Authority of the Sword is situational, but it can translate to significant city bonuses. When Conqueror’s feast finally does kick in, it has the largest impact, at least if a lot of t3/4 units are fielded.

    A part of the problem is IMO the extreme gold dependency of the Warlord: In difference to all other classes, the Warlord does not maintain at least some part of his forces using mana. This is especially acute in the early game. At this stage all the other players are spawning scouting units that are mana supported. At the same time the Warlord is probably casting raise militia constantly. Yet whereby the other classes split their unit fabrication support costs and maintenance between mana and gold, the WL is almost exclusively operating on a single register. This continues throughout the game of course, but is less significant in later stages.

    I’m sorry to say I do not see a way to resolve this issue with existing content except to make the irregular units that are made using “raise militia” to be mana maintained, and this is an awful solution IMO. I hope that the dev team, whom we have heard are going to introduce a scouting unit of some sort for the WL, will make sure that it is maintained in mana.

    A second problem is the quality of the WL’s units. I know this is going to start an argument probably, but I think that there is a serious problem with all units between the Berserker and the Manticore-Rider. In my opinion the Berserker is the best unit the WL has bar none: It is a t2 irregular unit that levels exceptionally well and continues to grow in strength threw techs even when other t2 units become obsolete. The only other equivalent really is the Assassin, which appears slightly later and can remain actual as well into the late-game (Apprentices are amazing, but they become relevant much later).

    Then comes the Monster Hunter, which is Okish, but really a big disappointment – in melee I’d rather have a berserker, and in ranged I’d rather have any other unit pretty much. Its greatest advantage is mobility though, but if there appears a proper scouting unit then even that is less significant (although, it remain so).

    This is followed by the Mounted Archer, which except for its Elven variety with the long bow, is really a UP unit. It has the same hp as goblin cavalry, that is -5hp the average, -1 defense and -1, or -2 /3 defense when compared with human/dwarven cavalry. This is topped by two very mediocre attacks – fire short bow with 8 physical, and melee blow with 10 damage. The elven variety is better with long-bow, but still crap stat wise. Also, it seems that Thoroughbred Mounts for some reason does not effect this unit, unlike racial cavalry units, which just makes it really a ridiculous choice for the WL.

    Then appear two tier 3 units – the Phalanx and the Warbreed. I’ve discussed the Warbreed at some length before and I know it has been buffed, so I’ll just focus on the Phalanx. It is on the one hand an ok unit – it has good stats, some good defensive capacities and it can take enemies above its weight class when these are mounted. The problem with it is that it is simply a much better deal to build racial t3 units. All of them have equal or better stats, and most have better abilities – for exactly the same price.
    Then appear the Manticore-Rider which is an excellent unit, but at baseline isn’t particularly impressive. When combined with the Thoroughbred Mounts +15hp and receiving the martial arts bonus from Martial Arts Training though, it becomes an extremely potent t4 unit.

    The problem with this entire situation is simply that for all intents and purposes the WL has 2 great units and the rest he is better of using racial ones. While the racial units are there, and should be a valid option, the WL really has no option. Now, I’m not saying you can’t use WL units – but simply that these units are rather bad choices ATM when compared to either racial units or other classes’ units.

    Here appears the great research problem of the Warlord. On the one hand it needs to research units if it has chance to reach manticores when other classes will hit t4, and yet it what makes its units and racial units better are very expansive techs – Martial Arts Training and Thoroughbred Mounts, which together have the research cost of Manticore-Rider and Phalanx combined. The result is a huge problem – the WL’s advantage is almost wholly on these techs. The simplest solution is to go for racial t3 cavalry units buffed by Thoroughbred Mounts rather than climb up the tech tree, and while this can be a deadly strategy in some games, it is often a losing one because the player sacrificed the possibility of having t4 units when the other players will have them at the expanse of having competitive powerful before the late-game. This is probably the most solid strategy the WL has in FFA games that I know of.

    Then there is the other side of the WL’s IMBA. If the warlord somehow does survive to very late game, and manages to research all the necessary techs and has a strong infrastructure, he can start spawning Manticore-Rider’s like hell, with +15hp and martial arts. This is already very powerful, but it isn’t game breaking. Yet once Global Assault is casted, all of these Manticore-Riders instantly get bumped to Gold Medal, which is insane: A baseline unit jumps from 100hp (85+15), 13def/12res and 23 physical strike to 140hp, 15def/13res and 27 physical strike. The result is simply game-breaking, and really quite boring.
    Since its getting late I’ll post this as is. If you guys have input I’d be glad to read it!

    #118707

    Gloweye
    Member

    Getting late indeed. Beserker is Infantry, not Irregular. Anyway, he is one of the strongest T2 units. He’s fast, immune to mind control, high base HP. decent damage and charge. This unit is fine IMO, exactly where it needs to be.

    Monster Hunter could get slightly reduced stats, and moved to T1 to become a decent scout.
    Alternitively, It could become an empire upgrade that will buff the racial irregular with his swimming+slayer and some other things, so that those could become the scouts(with Raise Militia..). This also fits nicely with the unit’s lore.

    I feel the Phalanx is indeed a bit underwhelming. Maybe the unit could “support” other units in adjacent hexes? historically, the Phalanx was a formation of spear infantry units, with as one of the greatest advantages that for every man in the frontline, there were like 3 who could stab the enemies. Maybe this could be represented by helping adjacent units in retaliation? Like every time an adjacent unit retaliates, the phalanx does so as well(Maybe 50% damage? might be to strong otherwise). Though they might need tireless to keep from being completely drained from movepoints…

    About the Mounted Archer+Thoroughbred Mounts, that is because the Empire Upgrade currently references to Cavalry(And the mounted archer is and Archer), while it would make much more sense to refer to Mounted. (I believe the Mounted Archer is the only mounted unit that isn’t cavalry…)

    Haven’t really played WL much actually. I’ve killed some Emperor AI’s with it, but thats all. not really a challenge when you can outgrow a sorcerer.

    #118727

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    The WL is unique in that it both sucks and is wonderful at the same time. Almost all of its units are terrible… until they aren’t when they get their upgrades. That matches its gameplay. It is terrible unless it somehow survives long enough and then it dominates. Of all the classes it needs the most work IMO.

    As ExNihil stated, and I’ll reiterate, another issue is that post WL upgrade, many of the racial units are better than WL specific units. Elven unicorn or gryphon riders with martial arts and extra HP are amazing, for example, and are often preferable to the situational phalanx and lackluster warbreed. Dwarven firstborns with martial arts are devastating as well.

    Also I will agree with ExNihil and say that one of the better WL strategies I’ve found is just to ignore the higher level class specific units and get those powerful upgrades and use racials.

    The WL’s spells are another issue again. Despite being a non-magic class, the WL actually has some of the most powerful spells in the game. Personally it annoys me that WL has Phoenix Warrior (and it is cheaper to research and cast than Rebirth). However Berserk is very scalable and very powerful. It’s not a nuke but in most situations it is far better. Then you’ve got the insane Steadfast Ward. I’ve been able to abuse that spell to clear mythical sites with my leader and a single tireless unit repeatedly. If spells become harder to dispel, it may become more of a problem against humans than it is at the moment.

    I will agree too the WLs ultimate spell is broken. The WL already has a skill to increase exp per fight. This ultimate spell completely obsoletes that. In addition the spell also grants the WL access to build a wide variety of extremely powerful units directly. Stun, Daze, Tireless, Fire Aura… with no need for exp. He goes from a class with a few options to a class with almost every option just with that spell.

    Heroes of all stripes under a WL are another interesting conundrum. Since most of the WL’s unit upgrades apply to heroes they can become monster killing machines once unlocked.

    All that said, how do we fix the WL? It’s not easy. You can’t just make his empire unit upgrades cheaper as that will make him too powerful. You can’t just boost his class units as with the upgrades then they will become too powerful. Yet something has to be done as without those late abilities the WL is terrible.

    Though I have no time to detail this now, I would suggest starting by considering splitting the WLs unit upgrades in two. I don’t have time to detail concrete suggestions though. Perhaps in a few days. I’ll see how the discussion evolves in the mean time.

    #118737

    Garresh
    Member

    We need BBB in here. He knows Warlord very well to my knowledge. That said, I’ll offer a rogue’s perspective on what I see are its big issues.

    1. Scouting. Holy crap are warlords easy to deal with as a rogue. I’ve only been challenged by a warlord once, and even then it was against probably one of the top 3 warlords players in our entire community. I know I’ve raised hell in the past about crows getting outdone by cherubs, but warlords are in the opposite extreme. That the class most dedicated to warfare lacks any form of recon is really crippling. This needs to be addressed in some form.

    2. Lack of Elemental Damage. In the past I’ve complained about Shadow Stalkers, before I really learned how to use them correctly. While I admit I was wrong about their overall power level(except vs sorc), they are still a but UP. But vs warlords, they’re gods gift to man. Whereas they’re a 3.5 vs a druid, and a 2.5 vs a sorc, these things are a full blown T4 against a warlord. It amazes me how strong Shadow Stalkers are vs warlords even well into lategame. This is even more ridiculous considering that warlords are supposed to be the strongest class lategame, or at least should be given their horrendous early game. I don’t know the class overly well, but I think small amounts of “simple” elemental damage couldn’t hurt. Hell just give +1-2 fire damage to mounted archers bows, and they become a lot better of a unit.

    3.Mobility. For a class with so few scouts, it really does suck in the mobility department. Yes they have slightly faster than average infantry. Yes they have a great t4 flier. But for most of the game, they’re limited to using roads or rivers. Monsters hunters are a good unit for what they do, but they don’t really serve too well as the bulk of an army. They’re roaming scouts and scout-killers. Sometimes they’re good for clearing. But this is the warlord’s only real “mobility” unit. This problem is made worse by the fact that they have both poor mobility AND no scouts. Their only way to outmaneuver is to cut their troops HP by half.

    At the moment, Warlords feel like playing a “hard carry” in Dota, except without a team to support you. They have all the weaknesses in the early game, and most of the strengths lategame. But it’s still not really overpoweringly strong lategame. Most classes can still put up a decent fight vs warlords well into lategame. They have an edge, but it’s not actually that significant. I have personally beaten warlords well into lategame in MP. Like, around turn 130+ with Global Assault and Age of Deception dropping. Warlords need something; I don’t know what it is, I’m not a doctor, But they need it.

    #118738

    Ericridge
    Member

    I played warlord a bunch. They’re interesting.

    Berserkers is good for suicidal charges.

    Monster Hunters is trolly.

    Mounted Archers is BAD, I think Triumph studios were drunk when they made this unit. Because only Elven Mounted Archers is worthwhile the trouble of training while all other mounted archers is just what? xD They simply don’t work in TBS games very well unless you can move and shoot then move away. Because the entire purpose of mounted archer is their mobility and ability to shoot their bows on the move while in AOW3 you move them then shoot and they stay there instead of moving away after shooting.

    The closest I’ve been able to simulate the actual historical mounted archers is getting a rogue hero with quick dash spell cast on a mounted archer that moved in and shot so it can move away again XD

    Thus, if Mounted Archers must stay in the game I propose they get some ability to move again after shooting and they should lose their red range so that they will have nothing but green and yellows while gaining the ability to move again after shooting at least twice or once if removal of red range is too much.

    Phalanx, is basically teh game’s only tough pike unit that can handle high tier flyers including manticores xD. And they can get tireless! This makes them really great for open field battles. Racial tier 1 pikes can handle independent high tier flyers.

    Warbreed, I played them abit, they’re similar to ogres, trolls and Golems.
    Although Warbreed feels bit tough like giants but squisher than them somehow xD
    Don’t really crank them out in large numbers unless i’m feeling funny and wanted to have a whole bunch of warbreeds knocking on walls everywhere for fun.

    Manticore. I’ve never built them because I always overrun the AI before I could get a manticore on the field and smack the ai’s armies apart <_<

    And there’s nothing really wrong with racial troops making up the bulk of army for the warlord. Racial troops is cheaper to train compared to class units. And warlord upgrades/spells only make them stronger! I had an village with one longswordmen in it ambushed by three assassins once, it emerged victorious because of relentless and steadfast ward XD all three assassins got pwnt.

    If you have enough CP, you can just basically garrison your cities with one tier swordmen against infiltrating armies no problem which allows you to press the frontline with units which would’ve been serving as garrison instead even harder.

    Warlord do have very tough early game, lack of summonable scout is reason why. It forces the warlord to devote valuable build scout militia/merchandise turn time from city unless they use raise militia and have it scout.

    At very least, by midgame if your extra large map still have huge swatches of territory you need explored and you have explorer perk? Monster hunter armies is great for this job. They’re cheap and tough irregulars. And if it turns out that unexplored territory have alot of monsters? They get to do their job of hunting monsters down and making your empire more safe.

    And I have yet to personally cast Global Assault spell, the current cowardly AI is too weak to humans playing warlord. Its very dominating at how warlords can roll through city after city with knight spam via martial arts despite playing on King difficulty, Emperor AIs is cheater though and I don’t play against cheaters who fling around ultimates on turn 30s XD

    Only because warlord is more of in yo face now while dreadnought is like that but much more slower.

    #118771

    Bob5
    Member

    If you want to make the other class units more potent, for Monster Hunter I’d just make Summon Slayer available earlier. Currently it gets it at silver medal, if you move it up to first or second medal, it gets that power boost earlier. Combined with Conqueror getting it to first or second level should be easily doable in clearing. The Monster Hunter is a situational unit in combat, but invaluable if you manage to level it when facing Archdruids or Sorcerers. With Summon Slayer active it gets a +6 damage bonus against all of their summoned units (except for Phantasm Warrior and Ancestral Spirits which are classed as infantry), and +9 against summoned Wyverns that count both as Dragons and as Monsters, so Monster Slayer, Dragon Slayer, and Summon Slayer all activate against those. If it needs a further boost, which I’m not so sure about, you can also just make Martial Arts Training also work on Irregulars. I really don’t think it needs a raw stat buff, it makes up lower stats with lots of slayer abilities.

    Regarding the Mounted Archer, it has been discussed before on the forums (I can’t find the thread back for some reason though), with solutions like choosing how many shots you want to take (so if you shoot twice from green you can still move away with your remaining Action Point), and some others. It has also just been confirmed that Thoroughbred Mounts will be working with the next patch on Mounted Archers in this thread: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/mounted-archers-not-receiving-thoroughbred-mounts/

    Phalanx I think is fine. It is not a unit that you should mass as an all-purpose unit, it is a situational unit that specifically counters cavalry and flyers, like Dragons. It’s not going to be cost-effective fighting Shock Troopers or Firstborn, but very cost-effective fighting Dragons, especially if you also get Blood Brothers in the hero army to make them immune to Fearsome (and Gold Dragon spirit damage). In that niche it functions extremely well, especially since the addition of Pike Square. It’s incredibly satisfying seeing your Goblin Phalanx only take like 5 or 6 physical damage from attacking Gold Dragons thanks to Shield + Pike Square + Martial Arts, while you deal 18 or so damage back and cost like 30% of a gold dragon price.

    Warbreed definitely needs a buff. I think Triumph is already working on it, as it just lacks those boosts like Training Regimen or Martial Arts that every other unit gets.

    #118792

    Gloweye
    Member

    Combined with Conqueror getting it to first or second level should be easily doable in clearing.

    The thing is that Conqureror is a T4 empire upgrade for 350 RP – not really easy to obtain early game. In my experience ever againts AI it feels like it is coming pretty late, and I dont even want to think how that would feel in MP.

    #118842

    Ricminator
    Member

    First I have to say that I clearly misunderstood one of Gloweye’s posts regarding the wl. Aplying Thoroughbred mounts on mounted units is indeed the way to go to ensure that it’s working on mounted archers.

    Adding flaming arrows to a mounted archer is something I’ve been thinking of too. Right now the only way for a wl to do elemental damage is by using supports or choose the right adept/mastery. Supports, we all know them, aren’t fast and tanky so once you include them in your army, they will slow you down.

    Although fire resistance/immunity is common, it would make the MA more useful. Personally I always use them( decent unit, especially with the ranged command hero-upgrade), but I also build supports just to make sure that I can deal with anything vulnerable to elemental attacks. Especially since ranged physical attacks are countered hard by some units( machines, incorporeal).

    Warbreed is getting a buff so I won’t discuss that. The plan to add a ranged attack to it is a good one, since I never build them.

    The phalanx that is my favourite unit. It is the core of my army: 5 out of 7 race t3 are vulnerable to it, both the rogues t3( only reason shadow stalker survives is because it is incorporeal and thus it makes no sense using a phalanx against him), all the sorcerers summons, theocrats exalted and shrine, AD’s spiders and all his floating units…

    The list of units vulnerable to a phalanx is long. It has two weaknesses which are fine by me: It doesn’t climb walls( except with rogueleader I know) and it isn’t the fastest unit, but if I would start walking around with a 3m pike in my hands I won’t be Usain Bolt either.

    So I really can’t think of something why the phalanx would need a buff, perhaps if you would consider putting some icing on the cake, then you could think of adding some spirit protection at some medals, so fearsomechecks will roll better.

    regarding the scouting I am curious how the new unit will look like, although I’m still convinced that horses are great scouts too.

    For now I really can’t think of anything else what is causing trouble for the wl, but if I discover something I will post it.

    #118850

    Gloweye
    Member

    both the rogues t3( only reason shadow stalker survives is because it is incorporeal and thus it makes no sense using a phalanx against him), all the sorcerers summons, theocrats exalted and shrine, AD’s spiders and all his floating units…

    AFAIK, Polearm/Pike Square triggers on flying enemies, not on floating ones. Also spiders?

    Sure the Phalanx can handle the spiders, but this is more due to being T3 than to being the best pikemen.

    #118863

    ExNihil
    Member

    Monster Hunter could get slightly reduced stats, and moved to T1 to become a decent scout.
    Alternitively, It could become an empire upgrade that will buff the racial irregular with his swimming+slayer and some other things, so that those could become the scouts(with Raise Militia..). This also fits nicely with the unit’s lore.

    Well, I dunno what they did with the scout. Let’s assume though it was not this and therefore focus on how to actually make the Monster Hunter a better unit.

    If you want to make the other class units more potent, for Monster Hunter I’d just make Summon Slayer available earlier. Currently it gets it at silver medal, if you move it up to first or second medal, it gets that power boost earlier. Combined with Conqueror getting it to first or second level should be easily doable in clearing. The Monster Hunter is a situational unit in combat, but invaluable if you manage to level it when facing Archdruids or Sorcerers. With Summon Slayer active it gets a +6 damage bonus against all of their summoned units (except for Phantasm Warrior and Ancestral Spirits which are classed as infantry), and +9 against summoned Wyverns that count both as Dragons and as Monsters, so Monster Slayer, Dragon Slayer, and Summon Slayer all activate against those. If it needs a further boost, which I’m not so sure about, you can also just make Martial Arts Training also work on Irregulars. I really don’t think it needs a raw stat buff, it makes up lower stats with lots of slayer abilities.

    I don’t think the problem with this unit is its lack of sufficient creature killing buffs. Thats the great thing when combined with its mobility buffs. But it doesn’t work as an all-purpose combat unit, and that is the problem IMO. In most circumstances a Berserker would be a better choice – it levels better, gets great perks from WL techs and is move effective against most normal units.

    I think the way to buff the Monster Slayer is to make sure it has a good ranged attack, i.e. Heavy Crossbow or short-bow, while making sure it can receive some of the tech buffs the WL unlocks later on by giving it the Infantry tag as well. If making it infantry is not an option, I’d try switching places between the Berserker and the Monster Hunter and changing their respective costs as well – if this unit is easily available and cheap, it will be much better because of the stage of the game.

    This unit could as well receive dual channel damage – perhaps a regular +2 blight damage on its melee attack instead of some of its physical damage to signify some “witcher” style poision.

    I feel the Phalanx is indeed a bit underwhelming. Maybe the unit could “support” other units in adjacent hexes? historically, the Phalanx was a formation of spear infantry units, with as one of the greatest advantages that for every man in the frontline, there were like 3 who could stab the enemies. Maybe this could be represented by helping adjacent units in retaliation? Like every time an adjacent unit retaliates, the phalanx does so as well(Maybe 50% damage? might be to strong otherwise). Though they might need tireless to keep from being completely drained from movepoints…

    Phalanx I think is fine. It is not a unit that you should mass as an all-purpose unit, it is a situational unit that specifically counters cavalry and flyers, like Dragons. It’s not going to be cost-effective fighting Shock Troopers or Firstborn, but very cost-effective fighting Dragons, especially if you also get Blood Brothers in the hero army to make them immune to Fearsome (and Gold Dragon spirit damage). In that niche it functions extremely well, especially since the addition of Pike Square. It’s incredibly satisfying seeing your Goblin Phalanx only take like 5 or 6 physical damage from attacking Gold Dragons thanks to Shield + Pike Square + Martial Arts, while you deal 18 or so damage back and cost like 30% of a gold dragon price.

    The phalanx that is my favourite unit. It is the core of my army: 5 out of 7 race t3 are vulnerable to it, both the rogues t3( only reason shadow stalker survives is because it is incorporeal and thus it makes no sense using a phalanx against him), all the sorcerers summons, theocrats exalted and shrine, AD’s spiders and all his floating units…

    Well, the Phalanx is a t3 pike unit. It is effective against mounted and flying enemies, although floating enemies are not vulnerable to pike attacks and do not trigger pike square. I agree that considering the buffs it gets later it is in a sufficently good place ATM, although I would like to see this unit made into a go-to unit like the Musketeer – a very powerful unit when massed, which the Phalanx historically were.

    2. Lack of Elemental Damage. In the past I’ve complained about Shadow Stalkers, before I really learned how to use them correctly. While I admit I was wrong about their overall power level(except vs sorc), they are still a but UP. But vs warlords, they’re gods gift to man. Whereas they’re a 3.5 vs a druid, and a 2.5 vs a sorc, these things are a full blown T4 against a warlord. It amazes me how strong Shadow Stalkers are vs warlords even well into lategame. This is even more ridiculous considering that warlords are supposed to be the strongest class lategame, or at least should be given their horrendous early game. I don’t know the class overly well, but I think small amounts of “simple” elemental damage couldn’t hurt. Hell just give +1-2 fire damage to mounted archers bows, and they become a lot better of a unit.

    Absolutely – this is also true regarding the WL’s spells and unit resistances – there are none.

    3.Mobility. For a class with so few scouts, it really does suck in the mobility department. Yes they have slightly faster than average infantry. Yes they have a great t4 flier. But for most of the game, they’re limited to using roads or rivers. Monsters hunters are a good unit for what they do, but they don’t really serve too well as the bulk of an army. They’re roaming scouts and scout-killers. Sometimes they’re good for clearing. But this is the warlord’s only real “mobility” unit. This problem is made worse by the fact that they have both poor mobility AND no scouts. Their only way to outmaneuver is to cut their troops HP by half.

    Yup, it is much less mobile then it should be.

    As for the Mounted Archer: I would like to see the baseline damage of this unit increased by 2 points, making it the most effective archer (10 baseline damage, 12 when Elven). I also would like to see Armor Piercing introduced. Finally, the +2 points could indeed be fire damage, or alternately blight damage due to poisonous arrows.

    #118868

    Warbreed definitely needs a buff. I think Triumph is already working on it, as it just lacks those boosts like Training Regimen or Martial Arts that every other unit gets.

    Well now, I think you guys will be happy with the new Warbreed. It is so totally appropriate and highly effective now.

    Hell just give +1-2 fire damage to mounted archers bows, and they become a lot better of a unit.

    mounted archers have received some other buffs and changes. I’d say add a little fire damage to the ranged attack for the Monster Hunters. After all, exploding/flaming crossbow quarrels are a stock fantasy thing, and would fit a van helsing like unit.

    You could also just give it “elemental crossbow” as an attack, and make it do 2 of each damage type (so I think the damage totals would be the same, or a little higher), so 2 physical, shock, fire, frost, spirit, poison, for 12 total.

    Or you could have it keep its normal attack, and just unlock one ranged elemental damage (replacing the physical upgrades) at the levels where it gets extra resistance in that element.

    So the unit would end up, Hercules like, using the residue of the enemies they slew to upgrade the monster hunter’s arrows.

    #118876

    Ha, I remember proposing that the MH got a new grenade/xbow attack with every level lol.

    But yeah, Berserkers are still awesome, MH are still ok, Mounted Archers are all round better, Phalanx is the same, Warbreeds are potential game winners. They are scary now.

    #118888

    Gloweye
    Member

    so 2 physical, shock, fire, frost, spirit, poison, for 12 total.

    My OP-detecting instinct started shouting when I read this. Do you have any idea how strong this would be when flanking? One-shotting T1’s for sure, 100-0. Also, epic in sieges with 12 min damage, better than fairy fire.

    I like the solution of adding elements with medals. I’d suggest starting out with just physical, giving +2 fire at veteran, and +2 shock at elite?

    #118894

    vota dc
    Member

    But aren’t Warbreed too similar to racial T3? Expecially Beetle. They are beetle without martial arts upgrade but without pike weakness…they also get charge at gold. Or orc warbreed after they got tireless…very similar to shock trooper.
    With knight a little more difference: the knight is more sturdy with +3 defense (when shield works) +5hp but less damage (expecially after warbreed get charge).
    For elves, dwarves and draconians they are more different since elves and draconians can fly and dwarves t3 is specialized with immunity and some bonus attack.

    Imho they could give a different skill to any warbreed to avoid being too similar to the T3: you don’t get any similar to berserker (there is no standard T2 infantry), phalanx (no standard racial T3 pike), mounted archer, monster hunter or manticore (you have flying T3 but no standard T4!).

    #118899

    ExNihil
    Member

    @vota dc, I proposed they get Hurl Boulder or shot ultra heavy cross-bow. Seems that one of these stuck 🙂

    #118908

    Ayenara
    Member

    I like to play a bit of warlord and think I have a good understand of how it works in 1v1 games.

    His early scouting problem is actually more of a research problem. The Warlord has the strongest midgame+ scouting of any class, as it can pump out more irregulars and MH than other classes can pump out summoned scouts. Even the t2 flyers such as Wyverns or Gryphons have a difficult time as MH are well equipped to take them down.

    You are somewhat limited in what Specializations that are good. Since the Warlord usually has a surplus of mana, even when using Authority of the Sword and Inspire Loyalty, the Specs chosen needs to have some mana sinks. Right now only Air and Fire have summoned units that are available early on, and if they were made cheaper, or if other options became available, it would help WL a lot.

    Depending on what Race you choose you have some options for elemental damage, but I would agree that WL could use some more options in that department. Right now you’ll most often get some fire damage from Hell Hounds, or if you’re playing Draconian then Flamers are cheap. The Elf, Goblin, and Draconian t1 Irregulars can also help out, but later on in the game these fall off.

    Some kind of t2/t3 Flaming Weapons research, or maybe Poison Tipped, could be a nice idea. Maybe a Hero Upgrade.

    In any case, WL is quite strong already and doesn’t require much to make it really good.

    #118909

    Ayenara
    Member

    One easy change could be to make the damage recieved from the spell Blood Bath mixed with different kinds of elemental damage. It would make the spell more powerful, but probably not too powerful.

    #118911

    My OP-detecting instinct started shouting when I read this. Do you have any idea how strong this would be when flanking? One-shotting T1′s for sure, 100-0. Also, epic in sieges with 12 min damage, better than fairy fire.

    My OP-detecting instinct started shouting when I read this. Do you have any idea how strong this would be when flanking? One-shotting T1′s for sure, 100-0. Also, epic in sieges with 12 min damage, better than fairy fire.

    you mean six, right? Faerie fire has a minimum damage of 9 with three shots and no immunities. Still it is too strong. Some fire and shock would be fine (probably even just one damage a piece) if we keep the normal light crossbow and the slaying abilities.

    #118915

    Gloweye
    Member

    you mean six, right? F

    Apologies. But indeed, still to strong. especially since the wall penalty is very small at those damage ranges. 2-4 damage would still become 1-2 over a wall. that would indicate a target with 7 resistance, or a cursed one (Orc Priest?) with 9 resistance base(at 1 elemental strength). for six rolls that might as well average 9 damage.

    #118934

    @vota dc, I proposed they get Hurl Boulder or shot ultra heavy cross-bow. Seems that one of these stuck :)

    Nope.

    #118937

    But indeed, still to strong. especially since the wall penalty is very small at those damage ranges. 2-4 damage would still become 1-2 over a wall. that would indicate a target with 7 resistance, or a cursed one (Orc Priest?) with 9 resistance base(at 1 elemental strength). for six rolls that might as well average 9 damage.

    I agree.

    #118939

    Dr_K
    Member

    Ha, I remember proposing that the MH got a new grenade/xbow attack with every level lol.

    But yeah, Berserkers are still awesome, MH are still ok, Mounted Archers are all round better, Phalanx is the same, Warbreeds are potential game winners. They are scary now.

    They have Fearsome now, don’t they.

    #118944

    Gloweye
    Member

    Whats this? a game trying to let BBB slip out of his talking restrictions?

    I hate fearsome. Even Mind Control Immunity doesn’t help, which feels completely weird.

    so, are Warbreed gonna be straight-to-your-face-badass-mutherfockers, or are they gonna get some tricks?

    #118945

    Ix329
    Member

    I feel like I’m a bit late with this comment, as a lot of this was said by Ex and some others, but…

    Just by itself, I agree with Ex that WL is weaker than all the other classes. However, there are a lot of combinations with races, spell spheres and research paths that make warlord very strong at every point in the game.

    The biggest problem with warlord is that they have worst scouting in the game. This leaves them unable to grab resources, and unable to effectively see what their opponents are up to. (Warlords also do badly in scout vs. scout battles, unless they pick a good offensive spell sphere.) But, it looks like this had been addressed extensively.

    Another problem is that warlords have only one summoning spell – raise militia – and unlike all other summons, the summoned units are maintained with gold. (Again Ex discussed this very well.) This leaves warlord with a disadvantage in upkeep management. All their units drain gold, while other classes can balance their income by splitting upkeep between gold and mana income. This is mostly an early game problem. However, later in the game, warlords usually have an excess of mana, as they have nothing to spend it on. After all your cities have authority of the sword cast, and you cast all the available global spells, there is really nothing for the warlord to do with their mana on the strategic map.

    However, regarding global assault… I played warlord a lot! But, I’ve never got to cast that spell. It sounds powerful, but so are all the final class spells. But, unlike other global spells which actually injure all other players (and are thereby much more annoying to deal with), global assault is only a passive boost to the warlord, and does not inflict injury on the world. So, it’s not as immediately devastating as some other final spells. Also, if a warlord manages to cast global assault, by that time he probably has a core army of elite tier 3s and 4s anyway – so its effect is minimal. The only advantage is producing new elite troops right away, which probably would not be game deciding at that stage. So, I don’t want to see global assault nerfed. One day, I’d actually like the chance to use it…

    Also, monster hunter can be a lot more useful if it had wall climbing. It just seems odd, that a mobile ‘special forces’ scout like that cannot scale walls.

    As for horse archers, yes it’d be great if they could get that +15 hp. Also, goblin archers could shoot mosquito darts and thereby actually be useful!

    #118978

    Draxynnic
    Member

    so, are Warbreed gonna be straight-to-your-face-badass-mutherfockers, or are they gonna get some tricks?

    Yes. :p

    More seriously, and going back to the OP:

    I don’t think it’s a bad thing that warlords can rely on pure race units rather than automatically going to class units. We want those units to remain useful in themselves, after all. More significantly, a racial t3 cavaly with all the upgrades is really pushing to be effectively t3.5 anyway, and likely at a reduced price. The warlord class units give you another set of options – okay, berserkers can replace infantry pretty much, but MH and phalanxes both have the potential to be awesome in their own roles that aren’t well replicated among pure race units, mounted archers give ranged support that doesn’t slow cavalry down strategically, manticore riders give flyers to races that don’t have them, and warbreed… Do what warbreed do. (In summer?)

    Their main issue is really that while they were always a class that required a lot of investment, they were really hurt by the research slowdown. That (and scouting) is their main problem now – the question is making them better early without simply giving them their killer researches early (which could make them overpowering in mid).

    #118996

    Bob5
    Member

    I don’t think the problem with this unit is its lack of sufficient creature killing buffs. Thats the great thing when combined with its mobility buffs. But it doesn’t work as an all-purpose combat unit, and that is the problem IMO. In most circumstances a Berserker would be a better choice – it levels better, gets great perks from WL techs and is move effective against most normal units.

    I guess we disagree then on what it actually should be. I don’t think the Monster Hunter should be an all-purpose combat unit. I think Triumph clearly created a niche unit with it by giving it a boat-load of Slayer abilities and elemental protections, built to kill monsters/animals, etc., not so much to be good against everything. Yes, against racial units Berserkers are simply much better, but against most summoned units Monster Hunters are better, at least if they get Summon Slayer earlier. I don’t mind it if Warlords have niche units that are sometimes not useful, but are sometimes very useful. If you try to mend all Warlord class units into similar combat power as other units of their tier and similarly broadly applicable, then I think you’ll create a class with too much units that are essentially the same. Warlords already have Mounted Archers for T2 ranged units (which are definitely getting Thoroughbred Mounts upgrade and probably also something else), they already have T2 racial cavalry for fast cavalry units in melee (that work really well on Warlords), and they already have Berserkers to kill pikemen in melee, be still fast enough to not slow down cavalry armies too much, and just be generally awesome. I really don’t think another general T2 physical unit would fit well, Monster Hunter is the go-to unit against Archdruids and Sorcerers, or if you have some map with loads of Monster Dens around, and not the go-to unit in other cases (like against enemy Warlords or Rogues). I don’t see why that would be a bad thing.

    #119001

    Gloweye
    Member

    When you did that post, you knew these questions were gonna come. So here they are:

    Gloweye wrote:
    so, are Warbreed gonna be straight-to-your-face-badass-mutherfockers, or are they gonna get some tricks?
    Yes. :p

    On which question?

    Do what warbreed do. (In summer?)

    Fire damage? sweat(and give disgusting stench)? Drink Cocktails? Eat Halflings? Beach Volleyball(Hurl Boulder)? come-on…..

    #119099

    Ricminator
    Member

    When you did that post, you knew these questions were gonna come. So here they are:

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Draxynnic wrote:</div>
    Gloweye wrote:<br>
    so, are Warbreed gonna be straight-to-your-face-badass-mutherfockers, or are they gonna get some tricks?<br>
    Yes. :p

    On which question?

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Draxynnic wrote:</div>
    Do what warbreed do. (In summer?)

    Fire damage? sweat(and give disgusting stench)? Drink Cocktails? Eat Halflings? Beach Volleyball(Hurl Boulder)? come-on…..

    have a snowballfight(in summer?)?

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