[FOLLOWED] WARLORD Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions [FOLLOWED] WARLORD Balance Discussion

This topic contains 375 replies, has 42 voices, and was last updated by  Mourioche 7 years, 6 months ago.

Viewing 16 posts - 361 through 376 (of 376 total)
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  • #139447

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I have a suggestion for Warlord:

    The Summoning spells of AD and Sorc summon at random. “Militia” is an unspecific name as well. Upon researching Produce Monster Hunter, Raise Militia might RANDOMLY summon a T1 racial Irregular or a Monster Hunter (50%). That would probably be an easy thing to do.
    Alternatively, an already existing spell or Empire upgrade might simply “upgrade” the spell to Summon Hunter Militia – for example Warrior Culture. Researching Warrior Culture and Produce Monster Hunter would, in this case, automatically make Raise Militia raise a Monster Hunter.

    #139448

    GeorgiSR
    Member

    I have a suggestion for Warlord:

    The Summoning spells of AD and Sorc summon at random. “Militia” is an unspecific name as well. Upon researching Produce Monster Hunter, Raise Militia might RANDOMLY summon a T1 racial Irregular or a Monster Hunter (50%). That would probably be an easy thing to do.<br>
    Alternatively, an already existing spell or Empire upgrade might simply “upgrade” the spell to Summon Hunter Militia – for example Warrior Culture. Researching Warrior Culture and Produce Monster Hunter would, in this case, automatically make Raise Militia raise a Monster Hunter.

    That being said. It has been confirmed that warlord is getting boost in that direction, but we don’t know what exactly. Your proposal is excellent given the current position of Warlord. When the new contend becomes available that can be reviewed since it is possible that change would be either irrelevant or I may become OP.

    #139493

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Here is another idea that hit me:

    The ONE other thing that’s missing, the one thing that the Warlord doesn’t have, even though he can produce a lot of Class Units is non-physical damage – so a tech “Army Chaplain” or something like that might be cool: Generally this might be everything, Combat spell, Global spell and even Empire Upgrade. It would “promote” a regular racial T1 Infantry to “Army Chaplain”, bestowing it with reduced Support unit capabilities without changing anything else (unit keeping its Infantry status, stats and XP tree).

    Example: A Dwarven Axeman would be promoted to Army Chaplain and get Forge Priest abilities: a) a ranged Fire Bolt attack (Forge priest has 8 damage, so damage might be 6 or 7); b) Guardian Flame (maybe with slightly reduced effect); (c) True Sight)
    Depending on how powerful you want it to be:
    This might be a (low level: T1 or T2) Combat spell (working only for duration of combat).
    It might be a (mid level) Global spell (cast on a stack of yours it would bestow one randomly picked Infantry in that stack with the ability as long as the spell was active; only one spell could be active in any stack).
    And lastly it might be an Empire Upgrade: Mid level, promoting automatically in every stack with an Infantry you own ONE randomly chosen infantry with that ability.

    If I had to pick, I’d tend to make it a Global spell, cheap and probably expensive T3.

    Lastly, it could also be something given via building.

    #139531

    Fenraellis
    Member

    I have some issues with such an idea, both practically and mechanically.

    Practically speaking, the concept of ‘the ONE other thing that’s missing, and thus must be provided’ somewhat undercuts the idea that classes have distinct strengths and weaknesses. Yes, I know that Strengths:Weaknesses are not necessarily balanced across classes, but they are part of their identity. Generally speaking, each class has their time and place where they excel over others, and situations where they are at a disadvantage as well.

    The inclusion of a more specialized scouting ability for the Warlord will (hopefully) mitigate the Warlord’s greatest(?) weakness already. Is it really necessary to remove more factors without witnessing how upcoming known changes will affect things first?

    Mechanically speaking it’s a lesser issue. It would likely be easy to assign Infantry an internal hidden penalty to their ranged strength, such that they are weaker than Supports under the unique circumstance that they gain a ranged ability. Weaker versions of Activated abilities, on the other hand, would outright require the addition of new abilities into the system. Again, not necessarily difficult, but certainly much more hassle than the former point.

    Lastly, mechanically supports exist for a key reason. That being their source of elemental damage, special abilities and True Sight. Being able to neatly sidestep this almost entirely would be a fairly questionable game mechanic, in my opinion.

    Yes, Warlords don’t have any particular synergy with the Support unit type itself, but they should still recognize the value of the varied activated abilities, elemental damage(depending on race of yourself and your opponent(s), and even the passive healing effects if Human, Dwarf or Halfling.

    #139540

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    First of all – the Warlord doesn’t have a Scouting problem, in that sense that he CAN scout, if he really wants to; he does have the means, and there is a whole specialization for that.

    It’s true, that you CAN build supports, if you want to increase the damage output EITHER.

    So that cancels it out. If one is considered care for, then the other should be considered care for as well, leaving an upgrade of the “Militia” to your class-specific Irregular which would be nice.

    That said, a specific scout unit wouldn’t come with a downside; the “Army Chaplain” does: it costs Mana (a support as well), it costs Mana upkeep (which a Support doesn’t), and it works on T1 INFANTRY only, which is currently easily the least useful unit; keep in mind the spell would work only if you had T1 Infantry (and Berserker is T2, which would then be the next stage to think about).

    #139562

    Bouh
    Member

    So that cancels it out. If one is considered care for, then the other should be considered care for as well

    No. Because scouting effectively in early is far more essential than having true sight on everything in late game.

    Something should be reminded BTW : if you give something to everyone, like true sight, the thing it counter (like concealment) will become worthless. No one want invisibility and concealment to become worthless.

    #139580

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Warlord can scout effectively. If everyone could scout equally effective you could just as well scrap the whole thing altogether, so some can scout better and some a bit worse, but Warlord CAN scout. Some are better early, and some are better later, and the former have to try to defeat the latter before the latter get too strong.

    I also don’t appreciate claims like “this is far more essential than that” – especially when invisibility and concealment has been identified as big Sorcerer advantage …

    #139602

    Bouh
    Member

    Warlord can scout effectively. If everyone could scout equally effective you could just as well scrap the whole thing altogether, so some can scout better and some a bit worse, but Warlord CAN scout. Some are better early, and some are better later, and the former have to try to defeat the latter before the latter get too strong.

    Well, the debate concluded that militia was not enough to scout properly. I depore it as well.

    But scouting is indeed essential above many other things. Far more essential than healing for example.

    And again, if you give true sight to everyone, invisibility and concealment becomes worthless, and you don’t want that. And for invisibility and concealment to be useful, some classes have to not get true sight served on a platter.

    #139625

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about: EVERY T2 Support has True Sight. So everyone HAS IT.
    And considering
    a) The otherwise absent elemental damage
    b) the need for Mana
    c) the very good idea to get a couple of units with true sight
    as a Warlord it makes sense to build a couple of them

    and if you wonder about your general mobility in that case – well, Warlord can’t have everything, right? You must make decisions.

    The debate did NOT conclude that militia is not enough to scout properly. It concluded that hardly anyone DOES scout properly, because it would seem that everyone has a problem to deplete HPs in order to do it, when HPs doesn’t matter anyway for Scouts.
    The simple truth is that NO ONE can compete with a Warlord, when it comes to Scouting when there are roads.
    Which means, Warlord is somewhat dependent on what their race gives them in mobility and what the map is like. Rogue is the exact opposite with their Crows. Crows can profit very much from Haste Berries due to their mobility, so EVERY such hex helps them massively, and they are completely independent from layout – same as Theocrat, by the way, except they are a hex slower.

    ELSE your pick of race and specializations will define your strengths and weaknesses with Warlord, and you better play like it.

    #139713

    Bouh
    Member

    We actualy agree. But I’m affraid we lost the battle on the warlord’s scout. 🙁

    #139737

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Pity.
    Actually, we tend to agree quite often.

    #145612

    Telenil
    Member

    I’ve read in the previous pages that orcs are a decent pick for a warlord, and that surprised me a little. Whether you tech to racial or class units, you end up with strong melee units, relatively weak archers, almost all your damage as physical and no flyer before T4. It’s true that orc racial traits make melee units stronger, but I don’t see why you would want phalanxes and shock troopers rather than, say, phalanxes and gryphon riders.

    Elves are strong where the warlord is weak (range, magic, flyer) and that strikes me as far more helpful than making great melee units somewhat better in melee.

    #145661

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    My feeling is that Orcs make better Warlords early game, when Victory Rush is relatively more effective and +1 melee grants a relatively larger boost than the disadvantage that comes from -1 resistance (this is reversed during midgame), plus the Raise Militia spawns a pretty strong Irregular.
    End game any race is better than Orcs when playing Warlord, unless all of your opponents are Warlords too.
    There are some synergies though; I find that Orc Priest’s ability to Curse is great combined with a lot of melee units, especially against an Arch Druid that relies on Revive Instinct shenanigans to beat your Global Assault-driven army of doom.

    I can’t wait until the new race upgrade system gets implemented as the Warlord class will probably benefit most (as I’m expecting alternative damage channels for otherwise melee units). Deity + Pillar of Stylites Draconian Phalanx? Though maybe this will just mean more end game buffs. Really curious about the scout option too.

    #155252

    Mourioche
    Member

    About “manticore problem” i can read in several thread in this forum, i have some idea to suggest :

    – Exchange Warbreed and Manticore in the tech tree.
    – Upgrade Warbreed as a T4 unit.
    – Downgrade Manticore as a strong T3 unit)

    For me, the “manticore problem” is that this unit is both a strong and flying unit.
    “Flying” ability is a strong advantage both in strategical and tactical map.
    In tactival : Because of the strike back attack.

    I think this is not in the “Warlord mind”.
    Warlord is a “Warrior class” and should have unit designed to crush enemies face to face.
    Of course, he could have units with mobility advantage, but these units should not have “direct fighting” advantage too.
    Warlord’s ultimate T4 unit should be a strong-ground-fighting unit,
    Like upped Warbreed could be.

    Possible upgrade for the Warbreed:
    – Something like “Fast regenerate” (likes heroes, recovery hp faster)
    – Mind control immunity – Warlord should count on them
    – (All races, and machines, and heroes) slayers – He know to fight
    – More defense
    Of course, upgrade price to train these units.

    Possible Downgrade for manticore :
    – Less defense
    – Less resistance
    – A little less health
    – Perhaps, add a distance damage with arc; like Mounted Archer ?

    My idea is to increase the mobility advantage of manticore, and at the same time to lower his “direct fighting advantage”.
    So warlord could use manticore both as a support and scouting unit.
    He could have more choice as T3 units he uses.
    Of course, downgrade price to train these units.

    And when “T4 time unit” come in game, warlord should have choice between its “true T4 unit : The strong Warbreed”, or manticore because during late game these units should be boosted by “Thoroughbred Mounts +15hp”, and all other “empire upgrade” of the warlord.
    With a good tunning, manticore should become like a “T3.5” unit, or almost like a T4 unit (but cheaper, and not unstoppable) at late game.

    #155269

    vota dc
    Member

    In this case Warbreed wouldn’t “overwrite” beetle riders because they are T4 but manticore would overwrite gryphon because they are both T3.

    Manticore has 23 damage vs gryphon 15. So if we nerf just the defense, the resistance and the health and we even add a ranged attack they should have 60 hp, 8 defense, 8 resistance and become a glass cannon.

    Warbreed already have regrowth that is better than heroes healing ability.

    #155292

    Mourioche
    Member

    In this case Warbreed wouldn’t “overwrite” beetle riders because they are T4

    They are both T4,
    Warbreed would be stronger for fighting, but do not have the mobility advantage of a mounted unit.
    While beetle riders has a mobility advantage (for strategical and tactical map), and stay T4 fighting unit.

    they should have 60 hp, 8 defense, 8 resistance and become a glass cannon

    I have something stronger for fighting in my mind,
    Ranged attack if just an option… we could avoid this.
    The advantage for this unit should be mobility, and decent fighting capacity – but not “unstoppable” when “Thoroughbred Mounts +15hp” and so on come at late game.

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